Obama outlines health care plan for all

**oreo390** · 09-09-2009, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bahet

If it's easier to illegally dump employees health care and just pay a fine instead then why aren't the companies doing it now? If that was a realistic scenario it would be happening now when so many companies are struggling just to keep open. But they aren't doing that.

But some of them are!! Or they are making the workers pay for more of their healthcare which is like getting a reduction in wages and as things get worse more may be doing this with the tax and spend era upon us.

**Advertisement** · 09-09-2009 06:10 AM

**Jolie Rouge** · 09-09-2009, 07:16 AM

If it's easier to illegally dump employees health care and just pay a fine instead then why aren't the companies doing it now? If that was a realistic scenario it would be happening now when so many companies are struggling just to keep open.

But they aren't doing that.

How do you KNOW that companies are not doing that ??

I worked for Albertson's ... their ploy was to over schedule you for five weeks, on the sixth weekthey drop you to 35-38 hours. WHY. Unless you work 40+ hours six weeks consectutivley ... you are not "full time" and therefore no benefits .... They also let people go on spurious reasons ( shoplifting accusations are quite popular ) to elimanate "costly" employees.

Because you have never experienced a situation, doesn't mean a situation doesn't exist for someone else.

**Jolie Rouge** · 09-09-2009, 07:43 AM

78% Say All Americans Should Be Able To Buy The Health Insurance That Congress Has
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...t_congress_has

37% Now Rate Obama’s Leadership Skills As Poor video ...
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/cont.../2240_MU090909

52% of Insured Americans Say They’d Have to Switch Coverage if Health Care Reform Passes
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ..._reform_passes

83% Say Proof of Citizenship Should Be Required to Get Government Health Aid
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ent_health_aid

60% Say Obama At Least As Ethical As Most Politicians
( Is that like saying he is as honest as most con men ?)
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...st_politicians

51% Say Congress is Too Liberal, 22% Say It’s Too Conservative
( 15% say they are all con men ... ?? )
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...o_conservative

68% Say Passage of Health Care Reform Will Increase Deficit
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...crease_deficit

**Bahet** · 09-09-2009, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by oreo390

But some of them are!! Or they are making the workers pay for more of their healthcare which is like getting a reduction in wages and as things get worse more may be doing this with the tax and spend era upon us.

Originally Posted by Jolie Rouge

How do you KNOW that companies are not doing that ??

I worked for Albertson's ... their ploy was to over schedule you for five weeks, on the sixth weekthey drop you to 35-38 hours. WHY. Unless you work 40+ hours six weeks consectutivley ... you are not "full time" and therefore no benefits .... They also let people go on spurious reasons ( shoplifting accusations are quite popular ) to elimanate "costly" employees.

Because you have never experienced a situation, doesn't mean a situation doesn't exist for someone else.

Working people less than full time so as to avoid giving them benefits is not illegal. It was done to me the year I graduated college. I worked 34 hours/week because at 35 hours I would have gotten health insurance.

They are also raising costs. Because insurance companies are raising costs. Because their CEO wants a new yacht. So the people pay for it. How does that figure in with national health care? The fact that they are doing it now and have been for years and years only disproves the point that all is fine right now but workers will start to get screwed if national health care is implemented. The fact is companies do screw over the workers, pay them as little as they can get away with, and slash their benefits as much as possible. They've been doing it for years.

**hblueeyes** · 09-09-2009, 10:40 AM

worked for Albertson's ... their ploy was to over schedule you for five weeks, on the sixth weekthey drop you to 35-38 hours. WHY. Unless you work 40+ hours six weeks consectutivley ... you are not "full time" and therefore no benefits ....

As a teenager, KMart did this to me. No overtime no bennies etc. I contacted the board of labor, which found in my favor and KMart had to pay me all kinds of OT. I loved it since at that time they paid in cash $$$$$.

Me

32-36 hours is the new full time. (depending on where you live.

**hblueeyes** · 09-09-2009, 10:55 AM

I also think part of the problem is the wording of the "Public Option". After some research, the public option is great, depending on your circumstance. My mother now has the "Public Option" and she has saved a bundle. She has medicare. Medicare sucks so ahe had to purchase a supplemental policy from BC/BS which cost her almost $400 every 3 months. She moved in with me and opted for Humana. The $97.50 medicare payment she pays montly from her social security is paid from Midicare directly to Humana. No more BC/BS. She has a zero co-pay for primary care visits and $25 for specialists. Some specialist have zero co-pay. Her meds costs are minimal. The most being $2 most are free. No hearing and optical is only covered for cataracs and after catarac surery she got a free pair of glasses from Lens Crafters, cute ones too. No dental but she has no teeth anyway. It does not cover for scooters, depends by mail, diabetic supplies by mail no nuring care etc. With the money she is saving she could buy her own scooter, if she wanted, which is under $1000 brand new. In the time she has lived with me,3 years, she has saved $4200 in supplemental premiums alone. Not to mention low med costs and co pays. She has gotten the best care she ever has had.

I am more concerned with the crap congress is doing by fining those who do not purchase a policy $3800. That is more than 1/3 of my yearly income. If I cannot afford healcare, what makes them think I can pay a fine. I do agree that if they want to pass a bill then give us the same healthplan that they have and the plan would pass.

me

**SHELBYDOG** · 09-09-2009, 04:54 PM

Palin warns of 'death panels' again

Posted by Foon Rhee, deputy national political editor September 9, 2009 11:08 AM
The idea of "death panels" -- hardhearted government bureaucrats who would decide when to pull the plug on terminally ill patients -- has been rather thoroughly debunked.

But former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin raises their specter again in an op-ed piece published in the Wall Street Journal today, on the eve of President Obama's much-anticipated health care speech.

"In an interview with the New York Times in April, the president suggested that such a group, working outside of 'normal political channels,' should guide decisions regarding that 'huge driver of cost . . . the chronically ill and those toward the end of their lives . . . .' Palin writes.

"Given such statements, is it any wonder that many of the sick and elderly are concerned that the Democrats' proposals will ultimately lead to rationing of their health care by—dare I say it—death panels? Establishment voices dismissed that phrase, but it rang true for many Americans. Working through 'normal political channels,' they made themselves heard, and as a result Congress will likely reject a wrong-headed proposal to authorize end-of-life counseling in this cost-cutting context. But the fact remains that the Democrats' proposals would still empower unelected bureaucrats to make decisions affecting life or death health-care matters."

After the firestorm of controversy over the "death panels" in Democratic bills, bipartisan negotiators on the Senate Finance Committee agreed to drop the end-of-life provision.

But the Democratic National Committee hit back this morning at Palin, last year's Republican vice presidential nominee.

“The way Sarah Palin is trying to scare Americans you'd think it's Halloween already," DNC spokesman Hari Sevugan said in a statement. "But, by continuing to peddle what Pulitzer Prize winning independent fact checkers have found to be ‘pants on fire’ lies and doubling down on the GOP recommendation to end Medicare for future generations, the only thing that's in costume here is Sarah Palin's supposed concern for the health care of Americans. What the American people find truly scary is that insurance rates have doubled this decade and continue to rise at a rate three times faster than their wages, and that rather than take on the insurance industry Republicans have become their biggest defenders. And what Sarah Palin should find truly scary is that her reputation as a serious leader can in fact sink even lower than it already has when she continues to stand by such outlandish claims.”

The rest of Palin's piece is far less controversial -- more of the Republican mantra that too much government would make health care worse, not better.

"Common sense tells us that the government's attempts to solve large problems more often create new ones. Common sense also tells us that a top-down, one-size-fits-all plan will not improve the workings of a nationwide health-care system that accounts for one-sixth of our economy. And common sense tells us to be skeptical when President Obama promises that the Democrats' proposals "will provide more stability and security to every American," Palin writes.

"With all due respect, Americans are used to this kind of sweeping promise from Washington. And we know from long experience that it's a promise Washington can't keep.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/..._warns_of.html

**Jolie Rouge** · 09-09-2009, 08:56 PM

The idea of "death panels" -- hardhearted government bureaucrats who would decide when to pull the plug on terminally ill patients -- has been rather thoroughly debunked.

Please reference where this has been debunked ... as opposed to people who report that it was been debunked... TY

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About Contact Archives RSS Columns Photos Michelle Malkin Obama speech tailgate party & BOHICA prep
By Doug Powers • September 9, 2009 04:24 PM Shortly before Obama begins reading the teleprompter to Congress about how vitally important is for all of us to have immediate access to affordable health care… in 2013… http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32013032...s-white_house/ just after the next presidential election (otherwise known as “Blame Bush, year 5″), I’ll put up a new post and live-blog the speech a bit, so join us if you’re able!

Until then, NRO’s Jim Geraghty brings us “Obama Health-Care Speech Bingo” — 25 phrases you’re likely to hear tonight, or some maybe not so much. Jim notes that this could be made into a drinking game, but it could result in alcohol poisoning, so you have been warned. http://campaignspot.nationalreview.c...IwYzA1YmNjM2Q=

But if you really want to get trashed, do a shot every time Nancy Pelosi blinks.

Click here for a sneak preview of an Obamacare end-of-life counseling session, coming soon to one possible future near you :

: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs

:

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/09...y-bohica-prep/

Obamacare: The primetime pitch
By Doug Powers • September 9, 2009 07:58 PM

Five minutes to speech time… my first mistake was turning on MSNBC to start off with. According to Keith Olbermann, who’s always grimacing as if he just got a colonoscopy with a rose bush, we have what amounts to a third world health care system that can only be saved by a government that has demonstrated nothing but third world aspirations.

Fox News: “Obama’s running late.” Cabinet introduced — if you want to make half of them scatter, yell “Freeze! IRS!”

What, no parade of czars?

:

Does it seem odd that the president is so late to something that he says time is of the essence? Guns n Roses was more punctual.

:

By the way, if you aren’t near a TV you can watch the carnage online here. http://www.cspan.org/Watch/C-SPAN_wm.aspx

“I am not the first president to take up this cause, but I am determined to be the last.”

So at least we do agree on something.

“We are the only Democracy on earth that allows such hardship for its people.”

Does Obama think he’s speaking in the Middle East again?

Michelle O. looks like she’s missing her favorite television show or something. Don’t worry, it’ll be over soon.

One reason people oppose Obamacare is not because the current system is grand, but because Obama’s “reformers” have done nothing but screwed up everything they’ve touched for the past several years, and the frequency and scope of the incompetence, idiocy, theft, Marxist leanings, lies and desperation is increasing exponentially. In other words, just because we don’t want a deaf, dumb and blind thief to take the wheel of the school bus doesn’t necessarily mean we’re thrilled with the current driver.

You can almost see the dollar signs in Pelosi’s freshly lifted eyes, can’t you?

Great, I’m reminded yet again why I didn’t want to vote for McCain.

:

“All Americans will be required to carry health insurance just like they’re required to carry auto insurance.”

Sure, but I can choose not to have a car.

Not all states require car insurance... and even those that do don't have 100% participation.

Pardon me for being cynical about not completely believing Obama’s “death panel” denial when the people writing the health care bill(s) will fight to the last for the glorious right to kill babies. Given that, why would offing a geezer here and there be considered so incredibly immoral?

Are politicians clapping at the prospect of keeping private industry honest? It’s the other way around or nothing at all.

Hey, where’s the UPS/FedEx vs. US Postal Service example?

“But wait, there’s more! If you’re one of the next one million callers….”

As it concerns the health care bill(s), we can believe Obama, or our lying eyes.

Throwing a bone on tort reform, then reeling it back in. The trial lawyers in Congress got shrinkage there for a second, but they’re okay now.

:

“More businesses will close” if government doesn’t spend another trillion dollars minimum?

If you had “46 minutes in” before Obama mentioned Ted Kennedy, you win the pool.

:

“Our self reliance. Our rugged individualism, our fierce defense of freedom and our healthy skepticism of government.”

Did I walk in on the wrong speaker?

Speech ends. Feel better about America now? If all this was so true, you’d think that people would be fleeing the U.S. by the bushel instead of coming here by the ton. But then, people are stupid, and that’s the message.

Rep. Charles Boustany, a doctor, with the GOP response. Not bad, but still lacking enough punch — it needed something like “If you want the health care of your family in the hands of a bunch of people who couldn’t even properly budget a friggin’ car sale, be my guest.”

KC Royals up on the Tigers 1-0 in the 5th inning.

http://michellemalkin.com/2009/09/09...imetime-pitch/

Transcript Remarks by the President to a Joint Session of Congress on Healthcare 9/9/2009 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...n-Health-Care/

Text of letter to the President from Senator Edward M. Kennedy9/9/2009 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...ard-M-Kennedy/

Excerpts of the President's address to a joint session of Congress tonight 9/9/2009 http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_...gress-tonight/

Transcript: Obama's Speech ...
Sep 7, 2009 http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.c...picnic-9-7-09/

**janelle** · 09-09-2009, 11:29 PM

Obama keeps saying we are in the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression then goes on to sell this health care bill which will cost, he says, 900 billion. Does this make any sense to anybody? If we are in such crisis then the government has no right to pass this bill until the finances are in better shape. The whole thing is crazy but then spending oneself into prosperity doesn't make sense to anybody but a politician.

**hesnothere** · 09-10-2009, 03:03 AM

For the millionth time, it's been debunked here:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...a-death-panel/

But of course you won't believe it because Malkin and Palin tell you not to.

The Truth-O-Meter Says:

Seniors and the disabled "will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care."
Sarah Palin on Friday, August 7th, 2009 in a message posted on Facebook

Sarah Palin falsely claims Barack Obama runs a 'death panel'
Bookmark this story:
Buzz up!ShareThisSarah Palin, the former governor of Alaska, urged her supporters to oppose Democratic plans for health care reform on her Facebook page.

"As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!" wrote Palin in a note posted Aug. 7, 2009.

She said that the Democrats plan to reduce health care costs by simply refusing to pay for care.

"And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil."

We agree with Palin that such a system would be evil. But it's definitely not what President Barack Obama or any other Democrat has proposed.

We have read all 1,000-plus pages of the Democratic bill and examined versions in various committees. There is no panel in any version of the health care bills in Congress that judges a person's "level of productivity in society" to determine whether they are "worthy" of health care.

Palin's claim sounds a little like another statement making the rounds, which says that health care reform would mandate counseling for seniors on how to end their lives sooner. We rated this claim Pants on Fire! The truth is that the health bill allows Medicare, for the first time, to pay for doctors' appointments for patients to discuss living wills and other end-of-life issues with their physicians. These types of appointments are completely optional, and AARP supports the measure.

Palin also may have also jumped to conclusions about the Obama administration's efforts to promote comparative effectiveness research. Such research has nothing to do with evaluating patients for "worthiness." Rather, comparative effectiveness research finds out which treatments work better than others.

The health reform bill being considered in the House of Representatives says that a Comparative Effectiveness Research Center shall "conduct, support, and synthesize research" that looks at "outcomes, effectiveness, and appropriateness of health care services and procedures in order to identify the manner in which diseases, disorders, and other health conditions can most effectively and appropriately be prevented, diagnosed, treated, and managed clinically."

The idea here, which Obama and his budget director Peter Orszag have discussed many times, is to make it easier for doctors, health care workers, insurance companies and patients to find out which treatments are the most effective, as determined by clinical studies and other research.

Obama has said he believes a comparative effectiveness commission should advise health care workers, not require them to follow certain treatments.

"I actually think that most doctors want to do right by their patients. And if they’ve got good information, I think they will act on that good information," Obama said during an interview with the New York Times on April 28, 2009.

He also specifically addressed end-of-life care for seniors, discussing the last week of his grandmother's life in 2008, and how her family and doctors decided on treatment for her.

"It is very difficult to imagine the country making those decisions just through the normal political channels," Obama said. "And that's part of why you have to have some independent group that can give you guidance. It's not determinative, but I think has to be able to give you some guidance. And that's part of what I suspect you'll see emerging out of the various health care conversations that are taking place on the Hill right now."

And in fact, the House bill states in the section creating the Comparative Effectiveness Research Center and an oversight commission, "Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the Commission or the Center to mandate coverage, reimbursement, or other policies for any public or private payer." In other words, comparative effectiveness research will tell you whether treatment A is better than treatment B. But the bill as written won't mandate which treatment doctors and patients have to select.

Palin's statement seems extreme, but other Republicans, like Newt Gingrich, are backing her up. "You're asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there clearly are people in America who believe in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards," Gingrich said in an interview on This Week with George Stephanopolous on Aug. 9, 2009.

We've looked at the inflammatory claims that the health care bill encourages euthanasia. It doesn't. There's certainly no "death board" that determines the worthiness of individuals to receive care. Conservatives might make a case that Palin is justified in fearing that the current reform could one day morph into such a board.

But that's not what Palin said. She said that the Democratic plan will ration care and "my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their 'level of productivity in society,' whether they are worthy of health care." Palin's statement sounds more like a science fiction movie (Soylent Green, anyone?) than part of an actual bill before Congress. We rate her statement Pants on Fire!

**galeane29** · 09-10-2009, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by hesnothere

For the millionth time, it's been debunked here:

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/...a-death-panel/

But of course you won't believe it because Malkin and Palin tell you not to.

And because it's posted on that website it makes it truth? Pffft!

You guys kill me when you say things like 'because Malkin and Palin tell you' Um, have you looked at what your 'believing'? It's just another website y'all decide to trust. I went straight to the bill itself. The wording is very clear. It does not say 'death panel' exactly. Take a gander at it sometime.

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