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  1. #45

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    We also have mention of the saints praying for us in Revelations:
    "And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Revelation 8:3-4).

    I am Sorry VAL1 I have to respectfully disagree, this verse is actually talking about ALL the prayers of ALL the saints that have been and are at the time of judgement and it doesnt say that they are offered up for us. So when you pray that Gods will be done and his work be completed...YOUR prayer will go into that censer for the appropriate time.

    This is very common in the Catholic church that they use as scriptural support a liberal interpretation of a scripture instead of taking the word in context as is where possible. Obviously prophetic statements and parables are open to some interpretation, but most of the Bible says exactly what it means.

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  3. #46

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    DPunk, we are part of the communion of saints, which we define as "the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head."

    I think we have a bit more in agreement on the subject than it may appear.

  4. #47

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    the souls in purgatory?

    HMMM there is just one more example of how Catholic teaching seems to stray from the bible. MANY MANY times we are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, or like when Jesus said to the criminal who believed, You will be with me this day in paradise.

    The whole concept of purgatory is a creation of the Catholic church designed to bilk money from peasants who didnt know that prayers for the dead were pointless, as their eternal reward or punishment had been settled at the moment of death.

    I realize that the wikipedia isnt always completely factual but they have a pretty good page on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

  5. #48

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    And I just have to point this out http://www.ucg.org/commentary/abandons.htm

    This page acts like Now that the Pope says so that the souls of infants will go to heaven after 800 years in limbo. Not for nothin, but regardless of what the pope says now and what the Catholic church has said for the last 800 years. Babies who died with or without baptism ARE in heaven.

    This is just one more example of how the church changes their minds, first priests could marry than they couldnt and now they are considering ordaining married priests again. They created Limbo and purgatory, then kill limbo and there is discussion of whether they will kill purgatory as well.

    God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Governments change policies at will to appeal to the most people. Which seems to make Catholicism more like a Government than a Religion.

    Please keep in mind that this page is from the united church of god or some such and I cannot vouch for nor do I agree with everything on its sites. I just thought that the info on limbo was pertinent.
    Last edited by DtroitPunk; 06-18-2007 at 06:19 PM.

  6. #49

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    Will come back tomorrow to address this further with you, DPunk, but that is where theologically we differ. I trust in the MERCY of God to welcome infants into Heaven, but I would never speak FOR God and claim that i know in any way who IS in Heaven and who is not.

    Will be back on the Limbo issue - it was never a mandated Catholic teaching either way, though the possibilities of limbo were discussed by many church theologians..

    ETA - Never trust Wikipedia, the encyclopedia written by amateurs. Some of their stuff is factual, other is skewed opinionism, but it's a crapshoot. If you want the accurate viewpoint, go to the source of the material. As has been suggested to you, try the Catechism if you want the Catholic viewpoint with its biblical foundations explained.

    If I was asking questions of a Muslim, I wouldn't go to any generic book of comparative religion, I'd go to the Muslim source and its leading teachers.

  7. #50

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    I understand what you are saying here"I trust in the MERCY of God to welcome infants into Heaven, but I would never speak FOR God and claim that i know in any way who IS in Heaven and who is not."

    But by the Bible we can KNOW that God is righteous and will always therefore do right, for those who are unable to make free will choices that result in sin: there is no question in my mind but that a perfect God wouldnt send people to hell who have no ability to choose. When we are offered a temptation and we KNOW that to indulge is wrong and we do it anyway, this is sin. If a person is truly incapable of knowing right from wrong how can they be guilty of sin?

    I am not speaking for god that seems to be the purview of the UBER bosses in Rome, they repeatedly make pronouncements as if they speak for God.

    But, as for other individuals, I can know by Gods word that certain people dont go to heaven. So if I see a person who is an active homosexual for example I can confidently declare that if they die as they are now, they will NOT go to heaven. This is from Gods word, so therefore I am not speaking for him only sharing with that person what GOD has said.

    And I understand what you are saying about getting info from the horses mouth as it were, but the little bit of the Catechism I have read didnt have clear biblical support listed along with it, if there is a resource that shows both I will use it. But I just wont study the Catechism on its own.

    And as far as the wikipedia goes I admitted that it is often not the most trustworthy site, that being said from the dictionary you can see that limbo and purgatory are almost exclusively Catholic concepts.

    please see this link to limbo http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/L0171900.html

    and this to purgatory http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/P0668000.html

  8. #51

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    Hi DPunk,

    Just to let you know I am excedingly frustrated right now. I have been typing a lengthy response to your last post for the last 45 minutes and when I accidentally forwarded to another site for a reference, my entire post got eaten.



    This has happened to me once before when replying to you, and just now I am too aggrevated to type it all again. Will return tonight or tomorrow for another try.

    Has anyone else had issues that when they hit the back button the computer just glitches and won't return? When I did, my post was GONE before I could hit send. In any case, I'll be back!!!!

  9. #52

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    I totally understand it has happened to me once before as well...It sucks hard and you always feel like you said it better the first time. Sorry.

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