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  1. #23
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    American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source graven image
    n. An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone.
    ================================================== =======
    http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/statues.htm
    You say-----
    "This page is very thoughtfully written and I couldn't help but agree. This is what I meant about facts are facts. There are clearly points where the Catholic teachings through the Catechism are not in line with the Holy Scriptures. This page did a good job of showing that."
    ================================================== ======
    Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images. NO THEY ARE NOT. So you want me to take this site seriously when the first thing I see is so off track? This whole site is this way. Tearing down teachings they do not even understand to begin with. It will not win converts that way. They may fool uneducated people but not educated ones
    Last edited by janelle; 06-16-2007 at 11:33 PM.

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  3. #24
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    fun·da·men·tal·ism /ˌfʌndəˈmɛntlˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuhn-duh-men-tl-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
    –noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
    2. the beliefs held by those in this movement.
    3. strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles: the fundamentalism of the extreme conservatives.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [Origin: 1920–25, Americanism; fundamental + -ism]

    —Related forms
    fun·da·men·tal·ist, noun, adjective
    Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
    Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
    American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
    n.
    A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

    often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
    Adherence to the theology of this movement.

    fun'da·men'tal·ist adj. & n., fun'da·men'tal·ist'ic adj.
    ================================================== ========
    I also looked up fundamentalism in the dictionary and it came up with this. I now see why you are so strict in your views of life. You are always right and no one else is right if they disagree. So why should anyone try to debate you? And if I agree with anything you say I am still going to hell because I am a Catholic just like so many in the other faiths. You admire the ones who go door to door spreading the gospel but they are still going to hell because they do not agree with your version of the bible.

    Who do you think is going to listen to you? Who wants to be that rigid in life to take over God's domain in judging people souls, intentions, and if they go to heaven or hell? That in itself is sinful.

    The pope says we cannot say who is in heaven or hell. If a person lives a good life who are we to say? Only God can judge a person.

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    Janelle out of all on the page you latch onto this? "Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images."

    WRONGO! I dont bow myself down to a family picture. That if you read the texts in their entirety is what it is all about, IDOLATRY. We are not to bow to anything but God. And No statue or man should be in the place of God. And furthermore by your definition of a graven image "An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone" A family photo doesnt fit but a statue of the Virgin Mary does.

    This is again a straw man argument. You Seem to be UNABLE to actually show me any support for MANY practices of the Church that are in the Catechism, but NOT in the Bible. Any intelligent person doesnt need to be EDUCATED to see how you skirt around issues that you obviously cannot debate on their merits.

    This site shows verses from the Catechism and from the bible, it is not wrong
    you are.

    As I said before, if the Catechism does not say what they say it does that is something completely different.

  5. #26
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    I know in my heart statues are not idols. You do not believe what I say about it so who's problem is that?

    So it does not matter what I say, you will tell me what I mean. So I say again why should anyone listen to you?

  6. #27

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    Janelle says...

    "I also looked up fundamentalism in the dictionary and it came up with this. I now see why you are so strict in your views of life. You are always right and no one else is right if they disagree. So why should anyone try to debate you? And if I agree with anything you say I am still going to hell because I am a Catholic just like many of the other faiths. You admire the ones who go door to door spreading the gospel but they are still going to hell because they do not agree with your version of the bible."

    Ok, so once again you resort to AD HOMINEM (to the man) attacks, as you are INCAPABLE of proving me wrong on any point. Do you know why this is? It is because this isnt my belief or my idea or my random thoughts, but The word of God.

    You as a Catholic CAN CAN CAN go to heaven and you know that I never said you couldnt. In fact earlier I told you that any one of any tradition or belief COULD go to heaven if they received the Lord as their savior and sincerely repented of sin.

    My point wasnt that you cant be a Catholic AND a Born Again Christian, but rather that I didnt know why anyone of any faith who knew the truth of the teachings of the bible would continue attending a church that wasnt in line with the same.

    Your Bible says almost exactly the same thing as mine, yours just has a few extra books.

    And there is a big difference between acknowledging that someone has done SOME things correctly and admiring them. PLEASE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!

    And for the Record, I have a mohawk and typically wear black clothing I look like I should be in a band or something. I would not be welcome in many FUNDAMENTALIST churches. But I would classify myself as one I suppose just because I do believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible. Whereas you believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the pope?

    I am just saying once again you WILL NOT, because you CAN NOT debate me. All you can do is hope that others wont see what you are trying to do.

    You attempt to make me look like a narrow minded, fundamentalist bigot so people wont take me seriously. But I believe that most people are a little smarter than that.


    Then you say...
    "Who do you think is going to listen to you? Who wants to be that rigid in life to take over God's domain in judging people souls, intentions, and if they go to heaven or hell? That in itself is sinful.

    The pope says we cannot say who is in heaven or hell. If a person lives a good life who are we to say? Only God can judge a person."


    Okay, I hope that anyone who takes the Bible seriously will listen to me. To those who wont read it and believe it, move on.

    I am not rigid in my life, I dont wear a tie, I dont worry about my cholesterol, I do read all sorts of books, go to movies, listen to music, play guitar and sing, collect comic books and toys etc etc ...

    I have a pretty good life that is all the better because I do have the peace and assurance of knowing I will go to heaven when I die.

    I do not judge if others are going to heaven or hell... God does that through his word. I dont know that you for example have never accepted the Lord as your personal savior and repented sincerely of all your sins. If you have you will be going to heaven, NO MATTER WHAT CHURCH YOU GO TO.

    But when I see a pedophile, or an active homosexual I dont judge that they are going to hell GOD does. The bible is quite clear that you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven if you are guilty of unforgiven sin. And you are not sorry for something that you have no intention of stopping.

    Oh, and the POPE says? well then YOU at least know it to be true. The Pope is just a man, and isnt the church making pronouncements on who is in heaven when they hand out sainthood?

    And who lives a good life? DO you? If you really believe that the good you have done outweighs the bad you are either highly delusional or a liar.

    The bible says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags to the lord. And also that salvation is not by works so no man can boast.

    I argue away what you say using the bible, you never argue away anything I say.

  7. #28

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    I started this thread, If you cannot do any better than this..

    "I know in my heart statues are not idols. You do not believe what I say about it so who's problem is that?

    So it does not matter what I say, you will tell me what I mean. So I say again why should anyone listen to you?"

    Please give up so that others might have a REAL conversation.

    I believe that you believe that they are not idols, and trust me I would NEVER presume to know what you mean.

    And people should listen to GOD not me. It just so happens that MOST of what I am saying I can actually give SCRIPTURE to support.

  8. #29

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    Janelles statements are becoming increasingly similar to the childs who insists there is a monster in her closet. You try turning on the lights, you open the closet and you explain that there is no real such thing as monsters, to no avail she KNOWS there is a monster.

    Little things like the truth dont matter, I guess.

    We both think that we are right, the difference is Janelle cant even EXPLAIN to anyone here exactly why she believes what she believes.

    I make a statement of faith or belief and I back it up with GODS word. When I cant I usually say up front, this is just my opinion led by my understanding of the word.

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    DPunk, first, thank you for the apology regarding the site. I truly appreciate your distancing yourself from some of the really hatemongering comments there and clarifying that you did not share THOSE beliefs.

    I will agree with you that there can be sites which hold valid information but the manner of presentation makes the delivery of those facts distasteful to the listener (I personally feel that way about anti-abortion sites which hit you in the face first with dead baby pictures - factual indeed, but most people are not going to get by the awful graphics to give even half a listen to any pro-life message).

    Since I am new to the site, I don't plan on going back to read all your prior posts, but would be happy to start fresh at square one with you on the debate topics.

    Just to clarifiy, my comments about "rude obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage" were directed towards the wordings in the site you linked to. Forgive me, but when someone links to a site like that without addressing the hate speech, a new reader is going to think the poster shares those views. I'm glad you've said that you do not, and I am happy to debate with you with a clean slate.

    Today is a busy one for me, but I will try to address a few points further down and most definitely will be back on Monday!

    Quote Originally Posted by DtroitPunk View Post
    Dear VAL who said "It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say."

    If you read my posts I believe you will see a person who wants to engender honest intellectual debate in order to lead people to follow the truths of the bible uncolored by tradition or outward literary influence. I have never intended to be abusive as that will not get me any further in a debate.


    And VAl, I believe if you read my other posts you will see that I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence over and over again. People either ignore what I say, refuse to believe what I say or twist what I say. I use the bible to back up all of my debates on faith. But many here will not here an argument based on the bible because they dont read the bible. Others say that the bible isnt meant to be taken literally. Then you have those who say that you or I cant know the mysteries of the bible and need people smarter or better or more holy than we are to lead us to the truths in the gospel. This is really scary thinking as we have seen more than enough evidence all through history from the crusades til now that a priest isnt on average any more Holy or right with God than anyone else. In fact if you take any other category of employ and compare the statistics of say plumbers or basketball coaches and priests who abuse you see a disturbing pattern. I believe, and I believe the Bible shows that this is because they are forbidden to marry.


    I have said numerous times on this thread that there are some who want to believe in things so badly that no evidence from any quarter will ever be enough to sway them from their belief.

    This is not the conduct of a reasonable, intelligent person. This is not an accusation toward any one person here. If for example someone came along and told me that Jesus Christ never existed and so therefore the bible was all a joke. I would not get angry. I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. It is the only religious book in history that has been proven accurate numerous times through research and science. They have proven that cities talked about in the bible were real that certain persons were king during certain times etc etc. Archaeology has been particularly helpful in this regard. Then the dead sea scrolls also were very helpful in establishing the validity of the bible to a much further date in the past. No other book has been translated by man so many times, so faithfully.

    That being said, IF someone ever could prove to me incontrovertibly that for example the King James Bible had been changed by the will of the King and did not translate from the dead sea scrolls, I would have a crisis of faith. My faith is nothing if I cannot believe that God has preserved his word.

  10. #31

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    DPunk, here is my belief regarding graven images. A graven image is ANYTHING representative of another person or animal or the like. The photos in my wallet are graven images. The statue at the Lincoln Memorial is a graven image. Totem poles are graven images. Statues of Mary, pictures of Jesus hanging on the wall, etc. are graven images.

    We are told by the Bible not to worship graven images. We do not. I do not know any Catholic who thinks that the crucifix on the wall is REALLY Jesus, or that when we kneel down to pray (to GOD, the almighty in heaven, NOT to the image of Jesus that we may display in our house - that is JUST an image much like the other pictures on our wall), we are not "worshipping an object". We do not mistake the Living God for a piece of marble or plaster or photographic paper.

    I know that many Protestants do not kneel in church (or elsewhere perhaps?)when they pray. We kneel and bow as a sign of respect to God.

    One great difference between our faiths is that of transubstantiation. We believe that during communion we are receiving the actual body and blood of Christ. That is present in the form of the Eucharist in the tabernacle of our churches. As a sign of respect, we kneel when we cross the altar and during the mass because THAT - the eucharist - IS Jesus to us.

    The pictures, statues, etc. - they are decorations. No more, no less. We do not "worship" them.

    Now, if you want to get into a discussion of transubstantiation, or of our reverence for Mary, or an off shoot topic, feel free to start a separate thread. But we do not worship idols. We do decorate our homes and places of worship with pictures of Jesus, and also of other religious figures whom we have respect for. We do not worship these, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by DtroitPunk View Post
    Janelle out of all on the page you latch onto this? "Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images."

    WRONGO! I dont bow myself down to a family picture. That if you read the texts in their entirety is what it is all about, IDOLATRY. We are not to bow to anything but God. And No statue or man should be in the place of God. And furthermore by your definition of a graven image "An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone" A family photo doesnt fit but a statue of the Virgin Mary does.

    This is again a straw man argument. You Seem to be UNABLE to actually show me any support for MANY practices of the Church that are in the Catechism, but NOT in the Bible. Any intelligent person doesnt need to be EDUCATED to see how you skirt around issues that you obviously cannot debate on their merits.

    This site shows verses from the Catechism and from the bible, it is not wrong
    you are.

    As I said before, if the Catechism does not say what they say it does that is something completely different.

  11. #32
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    DP, what do you do when you see the city of Washington and see all the statures in the city or any city where statues are prominently displayed? Do you jump to the conclusion they are idols and being worshiped?

    How do you feel when someone knells to pray? Do you assume they have some evil intent instead of reverence for God?

    For some reason you have a grudge against the Catholic Church, I know you will say you do not but when one attacks it and it's teachings all the time and will not stop for anything then I sense a grudge as I see one in the sites you recommend. One cannot talk to someone with a grudge against something. I know, I know you will say I am wrong. LOL

    My husband has quoted scripture numerous times and he is wrong because----oh I don't know---you just say he is wrong. I won't quote scripture but stay on the everyday worship and I am wrong. Anyone who gets into a debate with you will be wrong I fear. And that is my ONLY fear, no monsters but that one.

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    ONCE again, you ignore all the points I make... Technically yes, any statue is a sort of Graven image, but Statues of the virgin Mary are CREATED with the knowledge that people WILL be bowing to them.

    Most memorial statues will never have anyone bowing to them. I do not doubt that MOST catholics feel they are not Worshipping by bowing to a statue, but it is a sign of obeisance.

    Notice that in Exodus 20:5 there is no distinction made in WHY we bow, we are just told NOT to bow to any images.
    "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God"

    I honestly do not have a grudge against the Catholic Church, I do have a problem with it, just as I do ANY religion that teaches any doctrine other than the Gospel of Christ. See Romans 16:17-18

    "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

    And actually I QUOTED what verses your husband used and PROVED that they were taken out of context to support the confession, when in fact they had nothing to do with confession of sins to a priest for absolution.

    Keep on pretending that I am the one being irrational.

    And I do sometimes kneel in prayer or during an altar call at Church, but when we kneel practically all the time it cant help but lose some of its impact.

    For many people it has become more tradition than a heartfelt natural extension of the reverance we have for God.

    Janelle please realize that almost every time you post, you prove me correct.

    I say that you CANT debate me and you dont, but you say its because I wont believe anything you say.

    Just like when you pretend you dont know why I questioned the verses your husband used. I have asked everyone here to show me where I have been wrong even once BY THE BIBLE and so far noone has.

    But unlike you, at least some of the Catholics here like VAL1 are willing to try to use reason and intellect to debate our faiths.

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