View Poll Results: Should Lying About Medals be a Criminal Offense?

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  1. #1
    Jolie Rouge's Avatar
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    Should Lying About Medals a Federal Offense?

    Supreme Court to Hear Case Challenging Stolen Valor Act
    By ARIANE de VOGUE Feb. 21, 2012




    A close-up view of the Congressional Medal of Honor that President Obama awarded to Dakota Meyer, the first Marine to be so honored for actions in Afghanistan, at White House ceremony Sept. 15, 2011, in Washington, D.C.


    Jonathan D. Libby does not dispute the fact that his client, Xavier Alvarez, told a "whopping" lie when he annouced publicly that he had been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Alvarez was one of the first people to be prosecuted under the federal Stolen Valor Act, a 2006 law that makes it a crime to lie about receiving military awards.

    Alvarez was prosecuted because, as an elected member of the board of directors of the Three Valley Water District Board in California, he introduced himself in 2007 to the audience by saying, "I'm a retired Marine of 25 years. I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor."

    Alvarez had never even served in the military.

    But Libby, a deputy federal public defender, argues that Alvarez's speech was a lie, not a crime. The U.S. Supreme Court will take up Alvarez's case Wednesday and his argument that the Stolen Valor Act is unconstitutional under the First Amendment. "Exaggerated anecdotes, barroom braggadocio and cocktail party puffery have always been thought to be beyond the realm of government reach and to pass without fear of criminal punishment," Libby writes in court papers.

    He says that unlike other categories of speech such as defamation and fraud, his client's false factual speech is protected by the First Amendment.

    The Obama administration argues that the law fits into a "discrete and narrow" category of speech that is unprotected by the First Amendment: "knowingly false representations that a reasonable observer would understand as a factual claim that the speaker has been awarded a military honor."

    Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. says the law is necessary to protect the military awards system against claims that undercut its purpose to confer honor and foster morale in the armed forces. He says the law does not chill truthful and other fully protected speech. "Prohibiting those false statements," Verrilli writes, "poses little risk of chilling any protected speech or allowing the government to punish disfavored viewpoints or act as the arbiter of truth and falsity on matters subject to public debate."

    Libby says Congress' effort in passing the law was "laudable but does not warrant the intrusion on speech it causes, and thus goes farther than necessary."

    A lower court ruled in favor of Alvarez saying that while society would be "better off if Alvarez would stop spreading worthless, ridiculous, and offensive untruths" the law was "unconstitutionally applied to make a criminal out of a man who was proven to be nothing more than a liar, without more."

    http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/...ry?id=15748118

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    He says that unlike other categories of speech such as defamation and fraud, his client's false factual speech is protected by the First Amendment.
    false factual speech = a lie

    Now LIES are considered a First Amendment RIght ??

    ...

    Lying about honors not received, depending on why the lie was told, could be attempted fraud. If something of actual value was received/obtained based on the lie, then the person IMO has committed theft by deception

    ...

    It is an honor earned by those who have served our county and its people with valor and distinction. If you did not rightfully EARN it - you should have no right to claim it and the benefits be they goverment pensions or the attention and gratiude rightfully owed to those that have. LYING should not be a "right" under the First Amendment.
    Last edited by Jolie Rouge; 02-21-2012 at 04:26 PM.
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  3. #2
    Jolie Rouge's Avatar
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    Stolen Valor Act at Supreme Court:
    Is lying about being a hero a right?

    Stolen Valor Act makes it a crime to falsely claim to have been awarded a military medal. Xavier Alvarez did that, but the claim harms no one, says his lawyer in his brief to the Supreme Court. The case is being argued Wednesday.

    By Warren Richey | Christian Science Monitor – 7 hrs ago


    When Xavier Alvarez stood up and introduced himself at a local water district meeting in July 2007, he had no idea he was about to commit a federal crime.

    “I’m a retired Marine of 25 years,” he told the other board members in Pomona, Calif. “I retired in the year 2001. Back in 1987, I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. I got wounded many times by the same guy. I’m still around.”

    In most social situations, such statements might elicit interested nods, admiring smiles, and perhaps heart-felt thanks for his brave service to the nation.

    But it turns out Mr. Alvarez never served a day in the US military, had never been wounded, and – most important – was never awarded the Medal of Honor.

    After his false claim was exposed, the Federal Bureau of Investigation showed up. Alvarez was soon indicted for allegedly violating the Stolen Valor Act of 2005, a law that makes it a federal crime to falsely claim to have been awarded a military medal. His lawyer attacked the indictment as a violation of the First Amendment, arguing that Americans have a free-speech right to make false and outrageous claims about themselves without facing criminal prosecution from a government truth squad.

    A federal judge upheld the indictment, but a US appeals court panel reversed.

    On Wednesday, Alvarez’s case arrives at the US Supreme Court, where the justices are being asked to decide whether the Stolen Valor Act is an unconstitutional regulation of free speech or an acceptable effort by the government to punish an alleged liar. The high court has never directly addressed the issue of lying about military awards, and it is not clear how the justices may decide it.

    The Supreme Court has recognized a number of categories of speech that are unworthy of full First Amendment protection. They include obscenity, libel and defamation, incitement to imminent harm, and fraud. In each of those areas the underlying speech causes a concrete injury.

    Critics of the Stolen Valor Act say it requires no underlying injury. Any false statement claiming receipt of a medal may be punished. These critics suggest the best remedy for such false statements is not criminal punishment but more speech, particularly truthful speech to expose the lie. The Obama administration is urging the court to uphold the restriction as a valid regulation of a discrete kind of false speech that lacks significant constitutional value.

    Alvarez counters that the court has never before declared that such false statements are unworthy of constitutional protection. His lawyer says the government’s position marks a radical departure from free speech principles that could lead to sanctions against those who exaggerate, use hyperbole, or engage in satire. “For good or bad, right or wrong, everyone lies. Xavier Alvarez is no exception. He told a bunch of whoppers,” wrote Alvarez’s lawyer, Deputy Federal Public Defender Jonathan Libby, in his brief to the court. “Exaggerated anecdotes, barroom braggadocio, and cocktail party puffery have always been thought to be beyond the realm of government reach and to pass without fear of criminal punishment,” Mr. Libby said.

    The US Solicitor General’s Office disagrees, arguing that the Stolen Valor Act is aimed at achieving an important government objective and that it is narrowly focused to achieve that objective. “The government employs military honors to convey a message to the public that the recipient has been endorsed by the government as part of a select group,” Solicitor General Donald Verrilli wrote in his brief to the court. “The aggregate effect of false claims undermines that purpose … by diluting the medals’ message of prestige and honor.”

    The law seeks to punish only those who knowingly make a false claim of having been awarded a medal, Mr. Verrilli said. A person is unlikely to make such a claim out of confusion or by mistake, he said. “Content-based restrictions on false factual statements are consistent with the First Amendment if they are supported by a strong government interest and provide adequate ‘breathing space’ for fully protected speech,” Verrilli’s brief said.

    Alvarez’s lawyer, Mr. Libby, openly admits his client is a liar. But he says Alvarez was pilloried in his community as an “idiot” and a “jerk” after his false statements were exposed.

    Libby says Americans lie all the time in social situations and that if his client loses his case, the government may soon be investigating the veracity of a broader range of facetious statements. “Xavier Alvarez lied. He lied when he claimed to have played professional hockey for the Detroit Red Wings. He lied when he claimed to be married to a Mexican starlet whose appearance in public caused paparazzi to swoon. He lied when he claimed to be an engineer. He lied when he claimed to have rescued the American ambassador during the Iranian hostage crisis, and when he said that he was shot going back to grab the American flag,” Libby said in his brief.

    What’s the harm, Libby asked in his brief. There is no evidence that anyone relied on Alvarez’s false claims about hockey or military heroics. “The government’s interest in protecting the reputation of military medals is legitimate, but not compelling,” Libby said. “False claimants cannot tarnish the reputation of medal winners.”

    “The government seeks to create a new test – completely unmoored from this court’s precedents,” Libby said. “Falsehoods are valuable for innumerable reasons: in refining truth, in expressing personal autonomy, and in greasing the wheels of social interaction,” Libby said. “More than that, there is a realm of harmless prattle and puffery generally considered beyond government control.”

    http://news.yahoo.com/stolen-valor-a...132800911.html
    Laissez les bon temps rouler! Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.** a 4 day work week & sex slaves ~ I say Tyt for PRESIDENT! Not to be taken internally, literally or seriously ....Suki ebaynni IS THAT BETTER ?

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    comments

    As a retired astronaut, former vice president and Nobel Prize winner, I can say with all honesty and foresight, that lying is indeed a bad thing to do.

    ...

    While I firmly believe it should be illegal to falsely claim military honors or service, it is easy to tell who is lying about it. The liars will tell you, the real heros have to be asked.

    ...

    2 quotes come to mind:

    #1: Dr House: "It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what."

    #2: President Reagan (adopted russian phrase) : "Trust, but verify"

    ...

    If by such a lie the liar receives a job, or any financial gain, then it is FRAUD, and is therefore a crime.

    ..

    He used it in a public, city government meeting to elevate himself and his opinion, which means he sought personal gain with his deception.
    i have a Medal of Honor on my wall in my home, but i will NEVER say it is mine; it belongs solely to my uncle, and i am merely taking care of it until i can pass it on to my children.

    Lying about service or medals may not be as "bad" as impersonating a police officer, where someone uses that lie to commit other crimes, still, whoever lies about the highest of sacrifices lacks enough character to stay out of trouble for long. If he gets away with this, then he'll just expand his lies until he profits from them

    ..

    These liars depreciate the respect earned by those who have earned such honor. This law protects heroes and the values they represent. Bothers and Sisters in Arms: we should wear our miniature set of medals. The Civilians must be gently reminded of what our freedom costs.

    ...

    You should never be allowed to lie about something like that. It dishonors the true heroes that have served and have been awared medals. I hope the Court rules against him.

    ...

    A false claim of military service is fraud, as there is potentially something to be gained through making such a claim. It should be prosecuted just like credit card fraud or bank fraud or any other type of fraud that is committed for personal gain.

    ..

    During fleet week in New York, many years ago when we visited from Norfolk in our dress whites (crackerjacks) We couldn't buy a drink or a meal in NYC. Somebody always picked up the tab for us! I will always remember how the New Yorker's loved the Navy!

    ..

    There is no question that lying about military honors should be a punishable crime. The issue lies only in what the punishment should be. Prison time or huge fines (unless forced to be paid to veteran's benefitting charities) make little sense. What should be the central point of any penalty meted out is; for the convicted liar to be forced to run ads in a large number of daily papers, including all of those in the area within which he or she perpetrated the lie, including clear photos of the liar, admitting to the hoax. The penalty must match the crime and humiliation is best punishment for one attempting to garner the glory reserved for real heroes.

    ...

    I think it is illegal to say you are a cop or FBI agent too. Free speech is not a protection for that.

    ..

    While I'm sensitive to the first amendment implications here, I think the Stolen Valor concept deserves unique consideration regardless of quantifiable damage. Especially for those military medals that are awarded only in situations of direct combat action, the medal or badge represents far more than just the actions of the individual awardee. If you listen to the interviews of the most recent living Medal of Honor recipients, neither one wants attention or accolades, and the medal itself is more than anything a reminder of the worst day of their lives when some, if not many of their comrades died in their midst. Even worse than the family member who loses a loved one in war, it's the surviving awardee that has to live forever with the memories and guilt of being recognized for something truly hellish, while his comrades never even made it back to merely have the chance of returning to a normal life. So when someone tries to steal from this sacrifice, I feel that the offense far worse than just a casual lie, whether or not the offender realizes it. In fact, how could he/she truly realize its seriousness since the only way to do so is to have actually been there and made the real sacrifice in the first place?
    ..

    People die in battle and many come back physically broken and mentally shattered. This guy is standing up in a civic meeting and making claims of heroism and national recognition for valor. I say this is cheapens the achievements of others.

    Yes, most in the service come back and are none the worse for wear as well. Some lies should be pursued, and this is one.

    ...

    Critics say there is no underlying harm? Come on you spit on the memory of anyone who actually earned the medals. Freedom of speech ok but out and out lying come on. We impeach Presidents for lying so it should remain a crime.

    ...

    These people lie because they want to make someone think better of them and then take advantage of those feelings. It is fraud and should be treated as such. I got a DD214 that backs up everything I say, every vet does.

    ...

    A person has the right to lie. They also have the right to suffer the consequences.
    Laissez les bon temps rouler! Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.** a 4 day work week & sex slaves ~ I say Tyt for PRESIDENT! Not to be taken internally, literally or seriously ....Suki ebaynni IS THAT BETTER ?

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    I'm not sure how I feel about this... is he a low down dirty dog for lying? Yes... should he be prosecuted for it... I don't know.
    Lord, keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.

    An 'eye for an eye' leaves the whole world blind. -Mahatma Gandhi

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    Alvarez was prosecuted because, as an elected member of the board of directors of the Three Valley Water District Board in California, he introduced himself in 2007 to the audience by saying, "I'm a retired Marine of 25 years. I was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor."
    What other lies along the way did he tell to get elected?

    Yes, his lying is a criminal act.

    Not prosecuting or just getting a slap on the wrist would only encourage others to lie....like lying about qualifications to run for president.
    Last edited by pepperpot; 02-22-2012 at 04:01 PM.
    Mrs Pepperpot is a lady who always copes with the tricky situations that she finds herself in....

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    If he was lieing to get veterans benefits they'd consider it wrong. I guess they don't think its wrong if you don't profit from the lie. But whats going to happen when someone profits from it, will they get off scott free too.

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    justme23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepperpot View Post
    What other lies along the way did he tell to get elected?

    Yes, his lying is a criminal act.

    Not prosecuting or just getting a slap on the wrist would only encourage others to lie....like lying about qualifications to run for president.
    I see your point... perhaps you are right.
    Lord, keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.

    An 'eye for an eye' leaves the whole world blind. -Mahatma Gandhi

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    I think of Gobs son and Nana Joanie's son and the sacrifices they and their families made in support of our country. To have some one LIE about receiving THAT recognition - paid for with the blood sweat and tears of the men and women in the Service - to gain benefits or attention absolutely makes my blood boil.

    To say that you served as a Marine says something about a person; to say that you served with honor for 25 years speaks of honor and sacrifice; to say that you were awarded the Medal of Honor - is a rare and almost sacred thing. To say that you have LIED about all those things ... says you have no integrity, no honor; to know that the person lying about all of that never dared to serve, never walked those miles ... is a slap in the face of every soldier who serves or has served.

    To a Marine "Semper Fi" is not just a motto or an empty phrase... it is a promise.
    Laissez les bon temps rouler! Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.** a 4 day work week & sex slaves ~ I say Tyt for PRESIDENT! Not to be taken internally, literally or seriously ....Suki ebaynni IS THAT BETTER ?

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    Ok, yall are right... it is horrible... and in the case of a high powered person trying to use it to gain more power... ok, yeah, that should be prosecuted... but if you're dating a guy and he says he won any military medal just to get in someones pants... he would be a douche bag (and she'd be an idiot) but is that a punishable offense that could possibly end with jail time... I just don't think so. I really think every situation should be considered individually... to consider the intent, or potential gain from claiming it... maybe my thinking is fouled... I would most definitely be offended at the thought of anyone claiming it falsely... I just don't know if it should result in prison time in every case.
    Last edited by justme23; 02-22-2012 at 10:26 PM.
    Lord, keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.

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    It starts off as a lie to get into your pants, then a lie to get into your wallet and then a lie to get into office.......the big cash cow.
    Mrs Pepperpot is a lady who always copes with the tricky situations that she finds herself in....

  12. #11
    Jolie Rouge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justme23 View Post
    Ok, yall are right... it is horrible... and in the case of a high powered person trying to use it to gain more power... ok, yeah, that should be prosecuted... but if you're dating a guy and he says he won any military medal just to get in someones pants... he would be a douche bag (and she'd be an idiot) but is that a punishable offense that could possibly end with jail time... I just don't think so. I really think every situation should be considered individually... to consider the intent, or potential gain from claiming it... maybe my thinking is fouled... I would most definitely be offended at the thought of anyone claiming it falsely... I just don't know if it should result in prison time in every case.
    I don't think they are talking about "bar room puffery" you would have to have witnesses and proof of intent ... BUT for someone who stands up in a public meeting; or speaks to a reporter using their imaginary "service record" to bolster their posistionand opinion ... then it becomes fraud. Fraud is an effort to gain by deciet. It is already a crime to claim to be a medical or law efforcement professional - why should this be different ?
    Laissez les bon temps rouler! Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.** a 4 day work week & sex slaves ~ I say Tyt for PRESIDENT! Not to be taken internally, literally or seriously ....Suki ebaynni IS THAT BETTER ?

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