what do you think when a pregnant women does not want internal exams/getting checked while pregnant?

[Pepsi4me]

I have heard of pregnant women who do not want an internal exam at all while pregnant. They dont feel it's necessary & that it could cause infections.

I think that DR's are always cleaning their hands & as long as they wear gloves then what is the problem.

I think having an exam could catch any potential problems with the baby.

[freeby4me]

You should go check out the "other" site Pepsi, they have a few threads about this very thing.

I personally had no problem having the exams done but I guess more and more women are choosing not to.
(I just bumped up one particular thread over there for you)

[Pepsi4me]

You should go check out the "other" site Pepsi, they have a few threads about this very thing.

I personally had no problem having the exams done but I guess more and more women are choosing not to.


I dont understand why not get it done. Seems like they just like the fact that they can tell the Dr & nurse no they cant do it cause they think it's not necessary.

But what happens if something turns out to be wrong with the baby or mother. Who will they blame then?

I would rather be safe then sorry when it comes to my child.

[MistyWolf]

I think better to be safe than sorry .. I am for it.

[freeby4me]

I agree. I've been learning quite a few new things that some women are now not getting. Honestly, I find it scary. Some of the tests they run are pretty important and I cant imagine the guilt of finding out my child had something that could have been found and treated had I just had the tests done.

[Urban Cowgirl]

depends...with my second pregnancy my pap came back abnormal and they wanted more cells from my cervix. My doc felt it was not a good idea to disturb the cervix because there were problems.


If there are no problems though I don't see why not.

Whats the "other" site?

[freeby4me]

Did everything turn out ok for you? What were the abnormal cells from?

[Shann]

while I would if I became pregnant b/c like Misty said, it's better to be safe than sorry, but I personally feel it's that woman's decision and I have no right sticking my nose into her business, just like I would never tell a pregnant lady she shouldn't be smoking or drinking even if I'm thinking it and know it's bad for the baby.

[Pepsi4me]

while I would if I became pregnant b/c like Misty said, it's better to be safe than sorry, but I personally feel it's that woman's decision and I have no right sticking my nose into her business, just like I would never tell a pregnant lady she shouldn't be smoking or drinking even if I'm thinking it and know it's bad for the baby.

Oh I agree! I'm just trying to understand it.

If I was a Doctor then I would have the pregnant women sign a form saying the Doctor is not responsible if something should happen because the women did not want internal exams.

[BeanieLuvR]

I had them with both of mine and had no problem doing it. I agree I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[jayhawkfan]

Im confused. Internal exam as in your initial pap and exam? Or being checked once you get so far along? Im all for the initial exam. But to say that I agree with them doing an internal exam every 5 minutes, no I dont agree with it. When I was in labor with my first they were in there no less than every 15 minutes. There was nothing wrong heartbeat was strong. There was just no reason for it. With my 3rd, they left me alone thank goodness and with this one I will expect the same treatment.

As for prenatal testing. I chose not to get the blood tests. Nothing that they said would change my mind about having this baby, as abortion isnt an option for me. My doctor agreed.

[MistyWolf]

depends...with my second pregnancy my pap came back abnormal and they wanted more cells from my cervix. My doc felt it was not a good idea to disturb the cervix because there were problems.


If there are no problems though I don't see why not.

Whats the "other" site?

That is different when your doctor doesn't advise it. And if it's the "other" site I think they're talking about, you don't want to know .. lol.

And I didn't have them in checking me every 5 mins when I was pregnant .. not with either one. That would be annoying.

I think some women say no just to do it. Because they can more or less. They may have all these theories or reasons behind it, but when it comes down to it, what matters is the safety of your unborn child. A pelvic or internal exam during your regular OB visits isn't going to hurt .. unless your doctor advises against it for some medical reasoning.

[jayhawkfan]

A pelvic or internal exam during your regular OB visits isn't going to hurt .. unless your doctor advises against it for some medical reasoning.

No it wont hurt anything, but why do it just because? If there is valid reason, sure, but just to have it just because, no I wont be allowing it. After 3 kids I have learned that sometimes its ok to say no. You dont have to let them do whatever. And unless there is something wrong, I see no need for it.

[MistyWolf]

No it wont hurt anything, but why do it just because? If there is valid reason, sure, but just to have it just because, no I wont be allowing it. After 3 kids I have learned that sometimes its ok to say no. You dont have to let them do whatever. And unless there is something wrong, I see no need for it.


Why not just do it than if it won't hurt anything? Doctors have reasons for doing it, so it's not being done "just because." Why give them a hard time. I don't do whatever my doctor tells me to, but I do listen to what they say. It was for the best interest of my children to make sure that I was developing properly .. to make sure my cervix was the way it should be. I just don't get telling your doctor no because you can. They are the ones who have a degree, not me!

To each their own .. if you don't want an exam than don't get one .. why see a doctor than if your pregnant?

[ladybugva]

I never had a internal w/ a speculum (sp) but it was the "finger" test for lack of better word. The Dr. needs to know if you are dilate or efaced (sp again) what if you never had that checked and you dilated too much too early on. That could cause a lot of problems and may have been able to be fixed.

[RNB16]

I always had them done, never really thought about it. I did however not allow the 8 or so student Docs that came in my room while in labor with my oldest not to do anything like that. If I would have been more aware of all that was going on I wouldn't have even allowed them in. Apparently I was a special case after being induced 5 times and never dialating, something they should see I guess.

[dixiechicken]

I think that pregnant women need to get over their reservations and let me Dr.s do their job. My midwife let me decide if I wanted to be checked every week from 36 on. OF COURSE I wanted to.

[jayhawkfan]

Why not just do it than if it won't hurt anything? Doctors have reasons for doing it, so it's not being done "just because." Why give them a hard time. I don't do whatever my doctor tells me to, but I do listen to what they say. It was for the best interest of my children to make sure that I was developing properly .. to make sure my cervix was the way it should be. I just don't get telling your doctor no because you can. They are the ones who have a degree, not me!

To each their own .. if you don't want an exam than don't get one .. why see a doctor than if your pregnant?

They make sure your cervix is the way its supposed to be during the inital pelvic exam at your first appointment. And then after 36 weeks they start checking for dialation and effacement. Anything in betweeen, unless your pap or other tests come out abnormal, arent a necessity. Like I said if there is a VALID reason I will let him stick his hand where ever he wants, but there have been times when the nurses have checked me in the hospital "just for their convienience" to see if THEY can go take their break.

I love how you say to each their own and then make snarky comments after it. Not once did I say I would refuse if there was a reason for it. Im beginning to remember why I left here in the first place. You cant have an opinion without the snark. And I seen it many times in the past month or so.

[MistyWolf]

Sorry if this gets double posted .. my PC is acting up.



I am not making snarky remarks .. I am voicing my opinion. If you dont' want an internal exam I could care less.

When I was pregnant I for the most part did what my doctor told me. If they would have told me to get an amnio, I wouldn't have. So be it.

Do what you want .. I really don't care. I just don't see what the big deal about it is!

[freeby4me]

The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.

[MistyWolf]

The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.

Heard. Ain't that the truth!

[Pepsi4me]

The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.



I totally agree!!





Is there any cases where getting checked during an exam while pregnant has caused harm to the baby or mother?





What if you contact some kind of disease while pregnant & you didn't know. It could get passed on to your baby if you didn't know you had it & you dont want to get checked at appointments.

Why all of the sudden women are refusing to get checked?

[freeby4me]

Personally, I think its some kind of "woman empowerment" thing. "I know whats best for ME and MY BABY" or something like that. Honestly, the doctor and nurses help deliver hundreds of babies a month, they've seen more than me, they've dealt with more than me. They know more than ME. No, I dont trust their word as God but I do take into consideration what they say and I hold it much higher than my opinion. If I "feel" something is wrong, I'll tell them what I think and go from there. (IE, feel something wrong I mean a feeling inside, like something isnt right, somethings going on)

[Willow]

I have to go on the 14th for my first exam. The doctor will be doing a pelvic exam but not a pap smear as I just had that done in July and they told me that my insurance only pays for one a year so they won't do that again until July. After this initial exam I don't expect to have any more pelvic exams for some time. It's not something they do at each exam unless there is a problem. I know when you get closer to your due date they usually do them at every visit but for a normal pregnancy they shouldn't need to do them more than a couple of times until you get close to your due date.

[ahippiechic]

The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.

True Story.

[Katt]

We have a doctor that won't do pelvics on pregnant women unless something is abnormal. Bleeding, stuff like that. The stimulation can start the cervic to begin labor like routines. In most, this is okay, just like it's okay to have sex. BUT, in some, it can cause early labor. It's any woman's right to refuse a treatment. We have people refuse treatment all the time, and although I don't see why they would come to the ER to get fixed, but not let us do our job...it's still their right. (those usually end up being the ones that just like going to the doctor, or are hoping for a nice script)

I don't see why the risk should be taken, on introducing infection, if the need isn't there. Yes, hands get washed, but nothing is foolproof.

[Willow]

The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.

I read the posts in the thread over there and I keep thinking are these women from the same planet as we are? It's not just that particular post but a lot of them. I've been to a lot of different boards but have never come across anything like that one before. LOL

[Urban Cowgirl]

Did everything turn out ok for you? What were the abnormal cells from?

Not sure..everything came back fine after I had my dd. She is 4 now and I have never had an abnormal one since. The doc says sometimes they will come back that way, if they don't get enough off the cervix??

[Pepsi4me]

We have a doctor that won't do pelvics on pregnant women unless something is abnormal. Bleeding, stuff like that. The stimulation can start the cervic to begin labor like routines. In most, this is okay, just like it's okay to have sex. BUT, in some, it can cause early labor. It's any woman's right to refuse a treatment. We have people refuse treatment all the time, and although I don't see why they would come to the ER to get fixed, but not let us do our job...it's still their right. (those usually end up being the ones that just like going to the doctor, or are hoping for a nice script)

I don't see why the risk should be taken, on introducing infection, if the need isn't there. Yes, hands get washed, but nothing is foolproof.


Some women make it sound like they get a pelvic exam at every appt.

I know I didn't while pregnant.

[Katt]

I didn't either. Had one at the beginning. At the beginning of my eight month, I had one each week. This was in addition to the stress tests. Mine were because I never had labor with any of my kids. Never dilated, never had contractions, never was able to have them on my own. They did them, with the thought in mind that the frequent checks would dilate me. lol I was told to have lots of sex and lots of foreplay. Didn't work though.

I know once women are in labor (unless membranes are ruptured) they are supposed to be checked every so often by the l&d nurse. This is because it's very hard to tell how quick someone will go or not. They are required to document effacement and dilation every so often. Depending on the number of the pregnancy, this could be every hour to every 13-30 minutes. Believe me, of all the LD nurses I know, none like to stick their hands up anyone, just because lol. I know when I get a pt that I know is going to be a vag exam, I cringe like mad. I would hate to have to do it on a routine basis. bah

[Pepsi4me]

Yes, you would think that Dr's & nurses would not like to do them any more than they have to....LOL!

[newwiccan]

Is there any cases where getting checked during an exam while pregnant has caused harm to the baby or mother?







Yes, there is. With both my kids, I couldn't have an internal exam after so many weeks because of the way the cord was positioned. It was across the opening of the cervix and if I had started to dilate and the doctor checked me and accidently touched the cord, it could have caused alot of problems. With Hayden, it worked itself out before delivery but not with Emma. I had a c-section at 36 weeks. My doctor was very glad we did because he said if I had been allowed to go into labor, one or both of us could have died. The baby pushing on the cord would have caused it to tear and we could have both bled to death.

[JewRican]

Just a thought but back before medical birth became the norm do you really think midwives checked for dilation every hour? I am so happy that my midwife agrees that I don't need fingers in my chocha. If that makes me stupid to ya'll then so be it. Natural birth isn't fun but it is safer then needles in the back and cervical irritation from internal exams.

[freeby4me]

Just a thought but back before medical birth became the norm do you really think midwives checked for dilation every hour? I am so happy that my midwife agrees that I don't need fingers in my chocha. If that makes me stupid to ya'll then so be it. Natural birth isn't fun but it is safer then needles in the back and cervical irritation from internal exams.

I would never think you're stupid (((HUGS))). You and your doctor (midwife) have decided for safety that its best not to do it. You're doing what the doctor and you think is best. For most of us, getting checked isnt a problem, nor is there a reason for us not to get checked, therefor, deciding to not do it "just cause" doesnt make sense. Thats where we're coming from.

[Pepsi4me]

I would never think you're stupid (((HUGS))). You and your doctor (midwife) have decided for safety that its best not to do it. You're doing what the doctor and you think is best. For most of us, getting checked isnt a problem, nor is there a reason for us not to get checked, therefor, deciding to not do it "just cause" doesnt make sense. Thats where we're coming from.


Exactly!

[Pepsi4me]

OMG! Those people at another site are so self-rightous like they know all.

Yes, they know more than someone/a DR who went to school for years....:headshake

[earnhardt1]

i feel that its a womans choice to make her own choices

[ladybugva]

i feel that its a womans choice to make her own choices

true. I think the problems comes in when the woman makes her choice and if something bad happens they want to blame the Dr. who wasn't allowed to do what they thought was best.

[earnhardt1]

yeppers its them sue happy crazy chicks
drs free to look where ever he/she needs to look to make sure my baby is ok

[Urban Cowgirl]

I actually enjoyed getting checked!!! J/K LMAO

[Willow]

OMG! Those people at another site are so self-rightous like they know all.

Yes, they know more than someone/a DR who went to school for years....:headshake

They sure are. They keep asking why should a woman get checked. Well duh! It's for the obvious reasons but if they are too ignorant to know what those are then they shouldn't be having babies in the first place.

[freeby4me]

I have no problem with a woman not wanting to get checked. But to be encouraging others and making it out to sound like theres no reason to, thats what scares me. Imagine first time mothers listening to that?

[Willow]

I have no problem with a woman not wanting to get checked. But to be encouraging others and making it out to sound like theres no reason to, thats what scares me. Imagine first time mothers listening to that?

I agree! One person had a really lame excuse and that was that no one's hands belong in her vagina. I just thought that was really stupid. If there is a medical reason why it would be a risk to have it done such as what JewRican mentioned that's a different story but because you don't think people should have their hands down there is just plain dumb.

[PrincessArky]

I actually enjoyed getting checked!!! J/K LMAO

lmao you are so bad

[freeby4me]

I agree! One person had a really lame excuse and that was that no one's hands belong in her vagina. I just thought that was really stupid. If there is a medical reason why it would be a risk to have it done such as what JewRican mentioned that's a different story but because you don't think people should have their hands down there is just plain dumb.

Yea, with that way of thinking, you shouldnt even be pregnant, after all, a guys thingy doesnt belong up there either LOL

[tigger4]

When I was young and stupid (as opposed to being old and stupid now) I had my first child. I was 20, had no mother to tell me what was normal and what wasn't. My doctor was in a clinic in a hospital because I had state insurance and that is the only person who would see me. DH was just as young and stupid as I was (at the time he was my boyfriend, but was still young and stupid).

This was a teaching hospital. So, everytime I went in it was a different doctor. They did a fricking pelvic exam at every dang appointment. Every month. Drove me nuts.

Of course they were idiots and almost killed me and my baby. So, I know that is the norm.

Imagine my surprise when I had my second and I had real insurance and real doctor and they only did a pelvic at my first appointment and then to check my cervix after my 8th month.

[Willow]

When I was young and stupid (as opposed to being old and stupid now) I had my first child. I was 20, had no mother to tell me what was normal and what wasn't. My doctor was in a clinic in a hospital because I had state insurance and that is the only person who would see me. DH was just as young and stupid as I was (at the time he was my boyfriend, but was still young and stupid).

This was a teaching hospital. So, everytime I went in it was a different doctor. They did a fricking pelvic exam at every dang appointment. Every month. Drove me nuts.

Of course they were idiots and almost killed me and my baby. So, I know that is the norm.

Imagine my surprise when I had my second and I had real insurance and real doctor and they only did a pelvic at my first appointment and then to check my cervix after my 8th month.


That's the thing. These women act like it's something that will be done at each visit. A couple of times throughout your pregnancy isn't going to hurt.

[hblueeyes]

I have not read all the posts but it is her body and her child and it is her decision on the type of care or lack of care she receives.

Me

[Willow]

I have not read all the posts but it is her body and her child and it is her decision on the type of care or lack of care she receives.

Me

When you're pregnant it isn't just your body anymore. I think unborn babies should have some type of rights too. If you have kids and don't take them to do the doctors and something happens to them you could get in trouble for that. It's called neglect. I think there should be some type of protection for unborn babies as well. That's just my opinion.

[Urban Cowgirl]

lmao you are so bad


couldn't resist!!! LOL

[hblueeyes]

When you're pregnant it isn't just your body anymore. I think unborn babies should have some type of rights too. If you have kids and don't take them to do the doctors and something happens to them you could get in trouble for that. It's called neglect. I think there should be some type of protection for unborn babies as well. That's just my opinion.

I agree BUT if that were the case abortion would be ilegal and that is just not going to happen. I also do not think the government should control the who, what,where,when etc., regarding our healthcare and for those we have guardianship over. Have standards but do not tell me I must do this or else. Woman have been having babies long before there were doctors. Can things go wrong? Yes. Can they all be prevented or found through tests and exams? NO. Actually, it is a miracle that more does not go wrong.

Me

[BBELEAZAHR]

I do agree that the baby's health should come first, but I refused to have any internal exams during my last pregnancy. My second pregnancy with my daughter, I was at my usual check up and the dr wanted to check my cervex at 23 weeks due to numerous miscarriages that I had before. during the exam my water broke. I ended up having my daughter 3 days later weighing under a pound. She spent months in the NICU and still has many health problems. I am not sure if the exam had anything to do with it, but I just didnt want to take any chances this time and the Dr. was okay with my decision.

[PrincessArky]

When you're pregnant it isn't just your body anymore. I think unborn babies should have some type of rights too. If you have kids and don't take them to do the doctors and something happens to them you could get in trouble for that. It's called neglect. I think there should be some type of protection for unborn babies as well. That's just my opinion.

unborn babies lost rights when abortion became legal :(

My dr always checked me on the 1st visit then never once again until about 38 wks or so along........I do have to say that with my oldest when I was in labor seems they were ALWAYS checking me :( but the last 3 not nearly as often thankfully because I for one dont look forward to that at anytime

[pwfaith]

They sure are. They keep asking why should a woman get checked. Well duh! It's for the obvious reasons but if they are too ignorant to know what those are then they shouldn't be having babies in the first place.

What are the "obvious reasons"? Just curious.

Also, do you routinely talk about other ppl behind their backs like this and call them ignorant? Or is this a first?

[Memedav]

I certainly wouldn't offer up my vajayjay for the pelvic unless I really felt it was needed. My OB checked me at my first visit in September and I had a very unusual pap...my first abnormal one ever. So she suggested we re-do it in six months. She didn't mention it anymore and I see her next week, so I'm going to bring it up and go from there. I'm really not sure what I will do because I've had so many issues with this pregnancy already, so I'm leaning towards waiting until I have her and then dealing with it.

With Greta I got the finger at every appt., my OB was in her early 30's and with Greta being my first I just didn't know any different. lol I just lay there and enjoyed it.....NOT! With Fiona I don't even think my OB then saw my vajayjay until the day of delivery. We were scheduled for a c-section and I was never checked in the early (pap was up to date) or later months.

[Willow]

What are the "obvious reasons"? Just curious.

Also, do you routinely talk about other ppl behind their backs like this and call them ignorant? Or is this a first?

I'm not arguing with you people over this anymore. I posted how I felt at the other board. I don't see how I am talking behind anyone's back when I basically said the same thing over there. As I said if you are too ignorant to know the obvious reasons why you should get checked while pregnant then you shouldn't be having babies.

[PrincessArky]

What are the "obvious reasons"? Just curious.

Also, do you routinely talk about other ppl behind their backs like this and call them ignorant? Or is this a first?

apparently you dont know Patch at all because I can tell ya one thing she ALWAYS speaks her mind to someone's face not to their back

[ElleGee]

This is a public board.. Saying that she is 'talking behind backs' is just plain silly.

I refused internal exams with 2 of my children b/c there were no obvious signs of distress or anything else..

[Willow]

Thanks PrincessArky. LOL

ElleGee I think she thinks that I'm talking behind people's backs because I posted on their board and then posted here. I really didn't say anything different over there but I still don't see how I'm talking behind anyone's back. It's not like I was agreeing with them and being nice to them over there and then posting here about what awful people they are. LOL If I wanted to talk about them behind their backs I would do it through private messages. I wouldn't post it on a public board for anyone to read.

[ElleGee]

Oh i know.. Thats why I think she/he/it is being very silly.

[pwfaith]

(all you's are in a general sense)

The "obvious reasons" given on the "other site" everyone knew quite well and had already been posted several times. You were asked multiple times what the benefits were to those reasons and for you to offer proof of your many speculations (such as diseases and problems that could be detected) and never provided any. Many people provided resources stating there were no benefits to the "obvious reasons" posted, and infact there was more harm than good that could come from it. Even with a medical professional backing them up and confirming what they said you still refused to listen.

I love how ppl here are trying to make "the other side" out to be some backwooded dipsticks without a clue. When they are actually the ones posting facts and they're the ones who have spent much time researching and talking to medical professionals about it and have provided all the evidence to support their view. You did not.

I do NOT think that you are talking behind people's backs because you posted on the other board and then posted here. I was speaking in a general sense and referring to comments such as...


why see a doctor than if your pregnant?
That's just plain stupid. There is more to pregnancy as a whole and prenatal care than "routine internal exams from 36wks on".


Why give them a hard time. I don't do whatever my doctor tells me to, but I do listen to what they say.
Who's giving their Dr a hard time? Everyone has said they also listen to their dr, they're just ok with questioning, even the "routine" things.


It was for the best interest of my children to make sure that I was developing properly .. to make sure my cervix was the way it should be.
How does a VE at 36wks tell you your child is developing properly anymore than talking to you and abdominal palpation can? What is your cervix "suppose" to be like at 36+wks? Is every woman's suppose to be like it? Do you even know why they do VE's at the end of pg?


The Snarkyness is pretty mild over here. People dont really get jumped too much for their opinions.
It can be much worse on other sites.
Like ppl are stupid and don't know what "other sites" your talking about right now. AND like you have held back any snark yourself lately. Please!


Personally, I think its some kind of "woman empowerment" thing. "I know whats best for ME and MY BABY" or something like that.
And what's wrong with wanting to feel like you have some kind of control and say? And wanting to work TOGETHER with your Dr instead of just going along with every.little.thing they say and do? Refusing a VE at 36wks with a normal, uncomplicated pregnancy that has no reason for alarm, will not bring harm to you or your baby.


I read the posts in the thread over there and I keep thinking are these women from the same planet as we are? It's not just that particular post but a lot of them. I've been to a lot of different boards but have never come across anything like that one before. LOL
Umm, thanks? I guess if researching and refusing procedures that are unnecessary (again no one has offered PROOF that being done routinely is necessary) makes one from "another planet" so be it.


deciding to not do it "just cause" doesnt make sense.
:lol are you kidding!?!? After all the discussion and you think they refuse it "just because". And ppl are calling US ignorant?


OMG! Those people at another site are so self-rightous like they know all.
We'll I'm sure they would all like to know how you feel. Geez!


yeppers its them sue happy crazy chicks
drs free to look where ever he/she needs to look to make sure my baby is ok

I can pretty much assure you none of the ladies posting "the other side" are sue happy or would sue a Dr for not doing VE's like asked. A VE does not tell you if the baby is ok or not. It only tells you if you are dilated, effaced, ripe, what station the baby is at and position of the baby (which can usually also be determined by abdominal palpation) What's to sue over? Someone could easily sue the Dr for saying they were at 3cm at 36wks and that they would likely go soon, but they end up still pg at 42wks. None of those things tell a dr how the baby is doing or when the woman will deliver.



If people really wanted to be more safe than sorry they'd do their research and understand the lack of benefit that comes from it and the risks associated with it. I have yet to see any proof of "something that could go wrong" that a vaginal exam would take care of. NOONE has provided ANY medical evidence that a VE can do what you (again general) are claiming it can do.

And noone was trying to act like it happened at every visit. That's just ridiculous and ppl here trying to sway the view and make crap up. It was very clear in the "other posts" they were talking about the routine checks done from 36wks on (not against ALL VE's either). I assure you we are not "ignorant" or on a "power trip". We're fully educated, experienced, and want the best for ourselves and our babies, which means not having procedures done that are not necessary and have no benefits and can cause infection (even if done with gloves on) and premature rupture of membranes, emotional distress and unnecessary cramping/pain.


Why not just do it than if it won't hurt anything? Doctors have reasons for doing it, so it's not being done "just because."


Is there any cases where getting checked during an exam while pregnant has caused harm to the baby or mother? YES!


These women act like it's something that will be done at each visit. A couple of times throughout your pregnancy isn't going to hurt.
Not true! and yes it can hurt!

Everyone asks if there's no harm, why not have it done. The point is ... there IS potentional for harm more than there is the potential for benefit, so why have it done? I do agree, it should ultimately be between patient and dr as to whether or not to do it, but patient should be educated and feel they have the right to question their dr, even about procedures that are done "routinely". I know their supposed reasons for doing it, they don't tell the dr or patient anything. Are they really able to determine when labor will begin by checking you? NO! So what's the point if you are having a normal, uncomplicated pregnancy? You would rather take the risks and have it done but yet want the best, safest care for your baby? Doesn't make sense to me.


Why all of the sudden women are refusing to get checked?

It's not "all the sudden". Midwives have been doing LIMITED VE's for years. Women are learning they can read and inform themselves and that they actually can say no if they don't want something done that doesn't need to be done. They're learning they actually have a voice and can use it even to medical professionals. (Again not meaning being rude to their dr but questioning and making decisions on their own rather than having something done b/c "that's the way it's always been"). 30yrs ago husbands weren't allowed in the delivery room b/c they thought they'd pass out and the dr needed to worry more about the mother. I guess we should continue practices like that too? 35yrs ago my mother gave birth to my sister who was breech, butt first. Her dr thought natural was the only way to do things. Times change, new information comes about, procedures change.


This is a public board.. Saying that she is 'talking behind backs' is just plain silly.

True, unless they don't know they and their views are being discussed, then what do you call that? Where I'm from we call that talking behind someones back.

[freeby4me]

PWFaith, whoever you are from MWT, you know quite well that we're not allowed to come out and say "Come over to BBS and check out what is being said." its again the TOS. So no, in fact Patch is not talking behind your back. If she wanted to continue the discussion, she would have went back over there.
Thank you for bringing this crap over here. I've avoided reading anymore of that thread over there because I didnt care to hear anymore. Now its being brought over here. Great.

[ElleGee]

FFS. If the person that posted the question doesn't know it's here then that is on her. It's STILL called 'posting on a public board'. It's not being discussed in secret rooms n shyte

If the OP of the question had any sense at all she would have not aired a question that is not only being discussed here but I took it to MY board as well. Which is also a PUBLIC board as well.. Good luck finding it if you're so bothered :)

[PrincessArky]

FFS. If the person that posted the question doesn't know it's here then that is on her. It's STILL called 'posting on a public board'. It's not being discussed in secret rooms n shyte

If the OP of the question had any sense at all she would have not aired a question that is not only being discussed here but I took it to MY board as well. Which is also a PUBLIC board as well.. Good luck finding it if you're so bothered :)

what you mean you arent going to invite her to your board??? :rofl:

I gotta say I went to that other site ONCE when we were hooked to them and I simply wasnt impressed enough to go back and was thrilled to see the partnership btw them and BBS gone :)

[pwfaith]

Thank you for bringing this crap over here. I've avoided reading anymore of that thread over there because I didnt care to hear anymore. Now its being brought over here. Great.

LOL *I'M* to blame for bringing it over here?!?! Figures!

Oh yeah, I forgot, you never care anymore, esp when you might be wrong.

I wasn't the one to "bring it here" in the first place. Did you really expect to be able to talk about ppl over there and their views and not have someone try to defend themselves and their position when it's been SO twisted here?

[mirage7000]

I haven't read through all the pages here. I only want to say find a good doctor that you can trust. I was referred by a relative. It was not a good experience as he told me I would miscarry. He mentioned I was carrying too low. Well went and made another appointment for a second opinion. This new doctor had never heard of carrying too low. I now have a 21 year old son. I almost felt that the first doctor did something during the physical. I told him I was on birth control and apparently he didn't like it. He mentioned he had like 12 children. Hard for me to discuss that awefull day. I never cried so much in my life. Only can say always get a second opinion if something they say is not right.

[pwfaith]

If the OP of the question had any sense at all she would have not aired a question that is not only being discussed here but I took it to MY board as well. Which is also a PUBLIC board as well.. Good luck finding it if you're so bothered :)

Oh I don't have a problem with the topic being discussed elsewhere. I do the same thing. If I see a discussion that would be good elsewhere I'll bring it up and discuss it again on another site. Different ppl bring about different views. My problem is with making comments about the ppl and their views who are discussing it elsewhere. Discuss the issue whereever you like, I just don't agree with bringing up the other thread and proceeding to discuss them and their views, calling them ignorant, etc.

[mosdata1]

VE's can be beneficial, as I posted on the other site. My friend had one done by her (our) OB during her 2nd trimester & he found that she was prematurely dilated (5cm). This saved her baby & let her develop full term. VE's are generally not arbitrary (at least not with my OB), and are helpful. It took me years to find a Dr I felt I could really trust, one who listens to me & I feel always has my best interest at heart.
That might be the problem, these women feel that they can't trust their Dr's, so it's probably time to find a new one.

[DBackFan]

My problem is with making comments about the ppl and their views who are discussing it elsewhere.

:damnmate:

:cry :cry :cry

If ya don't like what you see or read here stay the hell away.

[MistyWolf]

:damnmate:

:cry :cry :cry

If ya don't like what you see or read here stay the hell away.

Good point DBack ;)

[PrincessArky]

:damnmate:

:cry :cry :cry

If ya don't like what you see or read here stay the hell away.

:yeah

[pwfaith]

VE's can be beneficial, as I posted on the other site. My friend had one done by her (our) OB during her 2nd trimester & he found that she was prematurely dilated (5cm). This saved her baby & let her develop full term. VE's are generally not arbitrary (at least not with my OB), and are helpful. It took me years to find a Dr I felt I could really trust, one who listens to me & I feel always has my best interest at heart.
That might be the problem, these women feel that they can't trust their Dr's, so it's probably time to find a new one.

And as I said over there, that's NOT what we were debating. We're talking about VE's done ROUTINELY at the END of pregnancy. You also said he suspected a problem after talking to her and asking her some questions. ENTIRELY different than doing one just b/c it's what the Dr was taught to do and does b/c it's "protocol".

I don't go to a dr I feel I can't trust but there are also times when the woman doesn't have a choice. We were military for a while. We didn't have a choice in OB's, you saw who they told you to see. I actually ended up driving an hour away b/c I hated the Dr intown they sent me to (only OB under tricare in our area within an hour). I didn't really care for the other office either. But it was better than the quack I was seeing intown. While I have the choice, I won't go to a Dr I don't trust, won't let me question things and who I feel isn't listening to me, doesn't trust me and my experiences and wants to make me do things for no good reason.

[pwfaith]

:damnmate:

:cry :cry :cry

If ya don't like what you see or read here stay the hell away.

Oh please (where's the darn eye roll icon). Why do you think I haven't posted since I joined. :) I'll post if and when I want to. I don't like the misrepresentation given in this thread.

[JewRican]

Why is everyone jumping on her ass? She is offering a more natural explanation of birth and why mamas do what they do. A little informed research goes a long way.

After my son's nightmare of a birth I vowed to be more educated this time around. My OB put me on mag. sulfate when I had PROM even though I wasn't having contractions. My dh and I developed a stomach bug while in the hospital so they decided to induce labor. Hours of pitocin hell later I was a failure to progress and was prepped for a c-section. Did I mention that my dh was NOT allowed in the OR because of the stomach bug?

The midwife I have now is wonderful and I can not sing her praises enough. I can talk about what I've read without her making me feel stupid or the "I went to school for this" attitude.

You ladies want a really fun argument? Let's talk selective or delayed vaccinations. Or how circumcision is really unnecessary unless done for religious reasons.

[freeby4me]

LOL *I'M* to blame for bringing it over here?!?! Figures!

Oh yeah, I forgot, you never care anymore, esp when you might be wrong.

I wasn't the one to "bring it here" in the first place. Did you really expect to be able to talk about ppl over there and their views and not have someone try to defend themselves and their position when it's been SO twisted here?

Who the hell said I was wrong or right? I personally dont give a **** as its MY OPINION. See, O P I N I O N. M I N E. N O T F A C T. Big diff. As far as this thread, Im done. Just like the thread over at MWT. Isnt that interesting.

[freeby4me]

Why is everyone jumping on her ass? She is offering a more natural explanation of birth and why mamas do what they do. A little informed research goes a long way.

After my son's nightmare of a birth I vowed to be more educated this time around. My OB put me on mag. sulfate when I had PROM even though I wasn't having contractions. My dh and I developed a stomach bug while in the hospital so they decided to induce labor. Hours of pitocin hell later I was a failure to progress and was prepped for a c-section. Did I mention that my dh was NOT allowed in the OR because of the stomach bug?

The midwife I have now is wonderful and I can not sing her praises enough. I can talk about what I've read without her making me feel stupid or the "I went to school for this" attitude.

You ladies want a really fun argument? Let's talk selective or delayed vaccinations. Or how circumcision is really unnecessary unless done for religious reasons.

All of those have already been brought up over on MWT. Believe me, anyone with opposing views are raked over the coals for being stupid and following the crowd and not making their own decisions. Its alot different over there than over here.

[Pepsi4me]

You ladies want a really fun argument? Let's talk selective or delayed vaccinations. Or how circumcision is really unnecessary unless done for religious reasons.



It's necessary if the boy wants a Pretty Penis.......:rolling...Sorry I just finish reading the Book "Baby Laughs-the nakid truth about the first year of mommyhood" By Jenny McCarthy. It's a very funny book!
She talks about wanting her son to get circumsised so he would have a pretty penis.



I'm the original OP of this thread & who's to say I was talking out a certin board. There are thousand of message boards on the internet.

[JewRican]

But what about girls having pretty vulvas? :huh Cause let's face it sometimes those labia minora's are pretty damn ugly too! :angel: :lol

[ahippiechic]

But what about girls having pretty vulvas? :huh Cause let's face it sometimes those labia minora's are pretty damn ugly too! :angel: :lol

Oh you can get work done on your chocha too! :D

[freeby4me]

Oh you can get work done on your chocha too! :D

Maybe you can.....mine be purty enuff LOL

[ahippiechic]

Maybe you can.....mine be purty enuff LOL

Well, mine is beautiful of course, but just sayin', if it's not pretty, you can get it fixed! :D

[freeby4me]

Well, mine is beautiful of course, but just sayin', if it's not pretty, you can get it fixed! :D

LMAO I am terrible. I got that song stuck in my head....."You can tie it in a knot, you can tie it in a bow" LMAO if its that bad, then chickie, you got problems even plastic surgery wont cure. Jeez im terrible LOL

[JewRican]

Oh you can get work done on your chocha too! :D

But can you do it to baby girls like you can to baby boys? :twitch If baby boys can have pretty penis's then baby girls should be able to have pretty vulvas. :duck


Ok, this is making me squeamish. :puke:

[BBELEAZAHR]

this thread just gets funnier every post. I have managed to get nothing done today "thanks" this is better than any talk show. Come on you have to laugh, compare the first post with last what has this turned into?

[ahippiechic]

But can you do it to baby girls like you can to baby boys? :twitch If baby boys can have pretty penis's then baby girls should be able to have pretty vulvas. :duck


Ok, this is making me squeamish. :puke:

Little girl's are already pretty, lol! Penis's are just funny-looking.

There is a site that has before and after pix from the Labiaplasty & Vaginoplasty, but I can't post them here.

JewRican, I posted it elsewhere for ya!

[JewRican]

You're sick I tell ya! That site goes to show that they turn out ugly! http://www.bigbigforums.com/images/smilies/puke.gif

[pwfaith]

Who the hell said I was wrong or right? I personally dont give a **** as its MY OPINION. See, O P I N I O N. M I N E. N O T F A C T. Big diff. As far as this thread, Im done. Just like the thread over at MWT. Isnt that interesting.

I understand it's your opinion. I'm sorry. I forgot you don't care about facts. I find it convient whenever facts prove your opinion might be incorrect you're suddenly done with the debate/discussion. You're opinion is fine for you, but don't make us out to be ignorant asses just b/c our facts disagree with your opinion and we choose to follow the facts and not take the risk of an unnecessary procedure. What would be interesting was if you really were as open to new views and change as you say you are and want to believe you are.


Believe me, anyone with opposing views are raked over the coals for being stupid and following the crowd and not making their own decisions. Its alot different over there than over here.

That's BS. It's a debate forum. You don't seem to understand that in a debate forum ppl are going to disagree with you and challenge your views/opinions/whatever you want to call 'em. I don't think anyone is stupid necessarily but I think it is foolish to ignore facts and hold to an opinion that one can't support and just throw facts out the window. Why do you keep coming back there if you don't like it? You seemed to really agree with the "If ya don't like what you see or read here stay the hell away" comment earlier. If you agree with it that much why don't you follow the grand advice given and stay away if you don't like what you see there? Or is it like a moth to the flame?

Where's the pot/kettle icon when you need it? Most of the opposing posts in this thread have been nothing more than raking ppl over the coals and making them look stupid for making their own decisions and not following the crowd.

However I TOTALLY agree, it's much different over there than over here.


I'm the original OP of this thread & who's to say I was talking out a certin board. There are thousand of message boards on the internet.

Who said it was you? But the first response to your OP I'm fairly certain was referring to MWT and was the one who "brought it here". Others just followed suit.

[freeby4me]

I go over there because I enjoy good debates. However there are a few threads in which I wont go in because of the superior attitude. Breastfeeding being one of them.
I also enjoy the laid back atmosphere around here. "debates" usually turn into fun enjoyable threads with jokes.
I tend to balance the boards between myself quite nicely.


I forgot you don't care about facts.

When you bring untruthful "facts" into debates as a scare tactic to make people think "oh geez, she must be right" then no I do not in fact like your "facts". They're not truthful. We went back and forth on this subject a few times over there and I stopped going into the thread. My last post in it was the last time I was in the thread. So no, I dont care what you posted after that. If it was anymore "facts" well Im doing myself a favor not reading them arent I?

Things arent done here the same as they're done there. Its a different style with more laid back people.

[pwfaith]

When you bring untruthful "facts" into debates as a scare tactic to make people think "oh geez, she must be right" then no I do not in fact like your "facts". They're not truthful. We went back and forth on this subject a few times over there and I stopped going into the thread. My last post in it was the last time I was in the thread. So no, I dont care what you posted after that. If it was anymore "facts" well Im doing myself a favor not reading them arent I?

Things arent done here the same as they're done there. Its a different style with more laid back people.

Whatever Free. All the facts are untruthful to you when they don't agree with your oponion. I have never used twisted facts as a scare tactic. It's your problem if you don't agree with the facts. Sometimes the truth itself IS scary. I can't help that. Risks ARE scary. Neither of us can change the facts.

I guess if you want to see being uneducated about something doing yourself a favor, so be it. I find being uneducated more scary than the facts. I guess ignorance is bliss sometimes. (Before you go haywire, I'm not saying you are ignorant, just that you don't care to be informed).

You are the one (I think) that griped and complained about Dr's knowing more and wanting medical proof. You were given it by a midwife herself and articles by ppl in the medical field and still you don't believe them. That's not my problem. I'm not out to scare anyone, just inform.

Plain and simple fact is that VE's at the END of pregnancy are not necessary and do not need to be done routinely for all women. It should be done "case-by-case" after asking questions and determining if there is a need for it. Ppl in the medical field confirm this. That is all the "other side" was trying to say. Yet ppl have to go and twist it and exaggerate. That's just annoying to me and was what I saw being done here.

[freeby4me]

Theres a few things that "other" people have said that are scary. To someone never having been pregnant before, suggesting that they go against the doctor "just cause" is bull ****. You may think its a good idea not to. Fine. But dont go around telling women that they should as well. You are putting them in danger by doing that. They dont know all the "what ifs" so by you saying "Theres no need to" you are telling them dont do it. What if they do have something and it needs to be done. By going into the whole "woman empowerement" thing, you could be putting their baby in danger. "Well I was told it wasnt necessary so therefor I dont want you to" well gee, now your kid has a problem all because of what exactly? You didnt want to get checked? Uh huh. That'll be good consolation when your kid asks you why. "I dont really know why dear, I was told by some woman on the internet it wasnt necessary, that I was letting my doctor take over and not let me make any decisions by telling me what was best"

No, I dont only "not care" when the facts dont go as I want. I could care less. As I stated on the other site, you're the one who brought slanted numbers to aid your case and when I called you out on it, you tell me to go look myself. Uhh no. I dont care so why should I?
This is nothing but bull ****. I've said all along I dont care if a woman gets checked or not. What I do care about is someone online telling women THEY DONT NEED TO. Thats between her and her doctor to figure out FOR HER.

[aussiegirl]

Pwfaith,

I'm assuming your from the other board? Who are you over there?

[mosdata1]

I don't go to a dr I feel I can't trust but there are also times when the woman doesn't have a choice. We were military for a while. We didn't have a choice in OB's, you saw who they told you to see. I actually ended up driving an hour away b/c I hated the Dr intown they sent me to (only OB under tricare in our area within an hour). I didn't really care for the other office either. But it was better than the quack I was seeing intown. While I have the choice, I won't go to a Dr I don't trust, won't let me question things and who I feel isn't listening to me, doesn't trust me and my experiences and wants to make me do things for no good reason.


I understand having a Dr you don't have faith in. When my 1st DD was born, DH's co switched insur companies mid-pregnancy. We then had to go to another Pediatrician. We didn't like the Dr, but figured we didn't have much $$ so we had to switch. Our old ped. looked into the new insur, but they didn't pay well at all, so she wouldn't switch (amd beielve me, we LOVED her). Anyway this new Dr had little/no bed side manner. When DD was born the new Dr came into my hosp room & totally ignored my son (who had been HIS patient for the past 4 months), and my DH. He told my DD was fine. She scored 9-10 on her Apgar. We took her for her next 4 scheduled check-ups & he kept giving her 'rave reviews'. DH & I still didn't like this Dr so I called our old one & asked her if we could work out some sort of pmnt arrangement with her because I just didn't feel too comfortable with this other ped.
On my Dd's 1st visit to our old ped - she told me that I needed to take her to a cardiologist because she heard a murmur. I (in my infinite wisdom) figured 'oh, it's just a valve prolaspe - I had one when I was born, DS had one so no big deal. We went back 2 months later, ped asked me what the cardiologist said to me - I told her i didn't make an appointment, she listened to DD's heart, sat me down & said "Mrs. S-, make the appointment when you leave here". She let me know that I would have to get an echo so they could see just how serious her murmur was.
Long story short DD went to the ped card. & she had an atrial septal defect (but instead of just having a hole in the wall between her atria - she had no wall at all!). That other ped I had seen said she was FINE. I was soooo angry when I realized that unless he had never listened to her heart (which I saw him do), he either just didn't care, or was too stupid to realize that she had a major heart murmur.
After moving to FL, we have gone through many Dr's until we found ones we could trust. My Dr's do perform routine tests and procedures, but nothing that I have ever felt uncomfortable with. If you have a Dr who listens to you, and is caring, while you don't have to blindly follow what they say, I tend to trust their judgement more than my own - due to their training.

[pwfaith]

Pwfaith,

I'm assuming your from the other board? Who are you over there?

Sarah

[pwfaith]

Theres a few things that "other" people have said that are scary. To someone never having been pregnant before, suggesting that they go against the doctor "just cause" is bull ****. You may think its a good idea not to. Fine. But dont go around telling women that they should as well. You are putting them in danger by doing that. They dont know all the "what ifs" so by you saying "Theres no need to" you are telling them dont do it. What if they do have something and it needs to be done. By going into the whole "woman empowerement" thing, you could be putting their baby in danger. "Well I was told it wasnt necessary so therefor I dont want you to" well gee, now your kid has a problem all because of what exactly? You didnt want to get checked? Uh huh. That'll be good consolation when your kid asks you why. "I dont really know why dear, I was told by some woman on the internet it wasnt necessary, that I was letting my doctor take over and not let me make any decisions by telling me what was best"

No, I dont only "not care" when the facts dont go as I want. I could care less. As I stated on the other site, you're the one who brought slanted numbers to aid your case and when I called you out on it, you tell me to go look myself. Uhh no. I dont care so why should I?
This is nothing but bull ****. I've said all along I dont care if a woman gets
checked or not. What I do care about is someone online telling women THEY DONT NEED TO. Thats between her and her doctor to figure out FOR HER.

You're going to see it your way no matter what is said. No one said go against their DR "just because". Everyone has said "feel ok to question your Dr" about this particular practice and if it's truly necessary for them to be put through, esp if they are having an uncomplicated, normal pregnancy. All we want is for women to be educated, yes, even first time moms. I WISH someone had told me with my first. It would have saved me a lot of unnecessary anxiety and frustration for no reason.

PLEASE tell me how it is putting them in danger? Again, you (general you) have greatly failed to prove how it helps to know dilation, effacement, station before labor. That's just ridiculous. They're in danger by not knowing the risks associated with it and being able to make the decision on their own with their Dr.

If by talking to their Dr (him/her asking questions) there is speculation of a problem and the Dr feels it's best to check, fine, so be it. That's not what we're saying. We're not saying "don't do it even if there is a problem suspected" - that's the twisting I'm talking about that you (general) are doing. We're saying it simply does not need to be done ROUTINELY on every pregnant woman. Why is that so hard to comprehend? And that YES there are certain risks associated with it. Why is that so wrong to be informed about? Shouldn't every woman know the risks associated with procedures done during her pregnancy and be able to weight the pros and cons and decide if she wants that procedure or not? Knowledge is POWER.

Again HOW is it putting the baby in danger. What does it tell the dr or paitent about the baby? Not once have I seen someone give a straight answer for this. Not once! Even the resident midwife disagrees with you and she IS the trained medical professional. What's that say? hmmm. When you can answer this and show me medical proof, then I'll be fully willing to reconsider, but as of yet no one has proved anything to the opposite of what we've been saying.

LOL where did I provide any "numbers"? I think you're confused. I did however (evidently after you stopped reading) provide some non-biased resources that state what we've been saying. I can post them again if you'd like.

I think it says more about you than me when you fully admit facts don't mean squat to you. I'm sorry, that's sad and imo puts women in more danger by saying your opinion is more important and right than medical proof.

I don't care if another woman gets checked or not either. I just want her to be informed and be able to make an EDUCATED decision rather than do something just because a Dr tells her she has to. I've had OB's tell me I HAD to stay in the bed when my body was telling me to stand and move during labor. Laying flat is one of the worst positions to be in during labor. Standing works with gravity to help bring the baby down. I was told IV's were a must during labor, routinely. Thankfully I did my research on that as well and found out they're optional and only necessary for antibiotics, meds or if you're dehydrated. Women shouldn't be treated "across-the-board" alike for EVERYTHING it's just not necessary b/c every woman labors different, every womans body is different and progresses through pregnancy differently. Every woman should be treated as an individual.

That's why I like going to a midwife as opposed to an OB. I feel I'm treated as an individual. Some things, sure, they're basic for every pregnant woman (blood work, urine tests, baby heartbeat, GD, Group B, etc) but not every test is necessary for every woman. Tests for birth defects are not necessary for every woman. VE's at the end of pregnancy are not necessary for every woman. Do they have a purpose and place? Sure, for SOME. That's the point, just that they shouldn't be done routinely but on a case-by-case, there are other ways to get the information gathered during a VE other than sticking their fingers up there MOST of the time. Nothing more, nothing less.

[aussiegirl]

Sarah

I thought so. Hi Sarah

[freeby4me]

Sarah, my gosh of all people you should know the danger. A different website you visit, the women there kept telling you that getting that Strep B test was "pointless" as you had been tested 4 previous times. This time it came out positive. Now think about some poor woman who doesnt even know, imagine those same women telling her "Oh you dont really need that" it could cause HUGE problems for her. What possible reason do those women have for telling someone to NOT get the test?
Questioning a doctor should be between a woman and her doctor. Not because someone on a website said "Oh believe me, DO NOT trust everything your doctor said. Question what they say and do, even though they deliver thousands of babies to my few I've carried and delivered, I know so much more"
Its dangerous. Plain and simple. You are screwing with someones life by telling them that.

[pwfaith]

I understand having a Dr you don't have faith in. When my 1st DD was born, DH's co switched insur companies mid-pregnancy. We then had to go to another Pediatrician. We didn't like the Dr, but figured we didn't have much $$ so we had to switch. Our old ped. looked into the new insur, but they didn't pay well at all, so she wouldn't switch (amd beielve me, we LOVED her). Anyway this new Dr had little/no bed side manner. When DD was born the new Dr came into my hosp room & totally ignored my son (who had been HIS patient for the past 4 months), and my DH. He told my DD was fine. She scored 9-10 on her Apgar. We took her for her next 4 scheduled check-ups & he kept giving her 'rave reviews'. DH & I still didn't like this Dr so I called our old one & asked her if we could work out some sort of pmnt arrangement with her because I just didn't feel too comfortable with this other ped.
On my Dd's 1st visit to our old ped - she told me that I needed to take her to a cardiologist because she heard a murmur. I (in my infinite wisdom) figured 'oh, it's just a valve prolaspe - I had one when I was born, DS had one so no big deal. We went back 2 months later, ped asked me what the cardiologist said to me - I told her i didn't make an appointment, she listened to DD's heart, sat me down & said "Mrs. S-, make the appointment when you leave here". She let me know that I would have to get an echo so they could see just how serious her murmur was.
Long story short DD went to the ped card. & she had an atrial septal defect (but instead of just having a hole in the wall between her atria - she had no wall at all!). That other ped I had seen said she was FINE. I was soooo angry when I realized that unless he had never listened to her heart (which I saw him do), he either just didn't care, or was too stupid to realize that she had a major heart murmur.
After moving to FL, we have gone through many Dr's until we found ones we could trust. My Dr's do perform routine tests and procedures, but nothing that I have ever felt uncomfortable with. If you have a Dr who listens to you, and is caring, while you don't have to blindly follow what they say, I tend to trust their judgement more than my own - due to their training.

That would be so scary!! I'd have been majorly pissed to and probably called to let him know!

I do agree, I trust our peds and my midwife. I wouldn't go to them if I felt I couldn't trust them or question them about things. I like the last 2 midwives I've had (as well as the midwife/OB team with my first 2 - they were husband and wife). They never made me feel stupid or silly for asking questions. Many times I've gone in to an appointment and said "I read this online" or "someone told me..." what do you think/is this true. And carefully considered what they said. 9 out of 10 times went with their view BECAUSE I trusted them and their training. I did not feel that way with the 2 OB offices I went to with my 3rd and some of the other OB's I saw with my last pregnancy. When I asked a question they would look at me like I was stupid and seemed to just shrug me off. I liked that my midwives would explain to me why it was true or false information and why they did need to do it, like with the group B strep I asked about on MWT. I had been told it wasn't necessary by someone and asked about it. She fully explained why it was and along with my own reseach and other ppl's experiences I agreed with her and had it done.

My point is that it should be ok to be informed and research things on our own and we should feel comfortable enough with our Dr to ask them about it, not just do everything b/c it's "protocol" or "routine". This is where I agree with you about "blindly following" them. That would be doing things "just b/c" it's always been done that way and not knowing why or if it still needs to be done for your particular situation.

[freeby4me]

PLEASE tell me how it is putting them in danger? Again, you (general you) have greatly failed to prove how it helps to know dilation, effacement, station before labor. That's just ridiculous. They're in danger by not knowing the risks associated with it and being able to make the decision on their own with their Dr.

I dont know the answer to this. I am not the one who went to medical school to learn it. I trust my doctor. Why would I search out information on something I trust them about? That doesnt make any sense.
Of course I asked questions when I was pregnant. But I sure the hell didnt believe I knew more than my doctor did for me.
Maybe you think you know more because of how many kids you have Sarah. Thats fine for you, but maybe not for someone else. Even if I did end up pregnant again, I still wouldnt "understand and trust" my body as i've spent much more of my life not pregnant. That to me feels normal, not the 9 mines I shared it with someone else.

[freeby4me]

Obviously over all there has been a HUGE miscommunication. Over there, the women come off terribly sometimes. Overly judgemental, overly critical. They'll make those who dont question things feel stupid, like we're less of a woman or something.
Yes Sarah, you always try and find the middle ground, just as we're finally getting to over here.

I think we all agree that "blindly following" is not smart, nor is questioning everything and anything the doctor says.
If all you're saying is "Its OK to question and decide otherwise" well thats all im saying too, in different words though. I've been thinking other things were being said, such as "you dont need this test, therefor dont do it" and the harm that could cause.

I will always admit where I am wrong and I fully admit that with your last (as of me typing) post its obvious I am wrong. I felt something else was being said, hence my stance. Since you meant different, I apologize. Perhaps this was already stated in the starting thread on MWT, my last post in the thread was my last view so if it was already stated, again, I apologize.

Many women on MWT are "crunchy" and unless you think that way, just taking bits and pieces of crunchyness could do more damage when it comes to pregnancy. If you understand this part, it would be a big help, if not, no biggie, just trying to throw out there why I sometimes jump to conclusions I do.

[pwfaith]

Sarah, my gosh of all people you should know the danger. A different website you visit, the women there kept telling you that getting that Strep B test was "pointless" as you had been tested 4 previous times. This time it came out positive. Now think about some poor woman who doesnt even know, imagine those same women telling her "Oh you dont really need that" it could cause HUGE problems for her. What possible reason do those women have for telling someone to NOT get the test?
Questioning a doctor should be between a woman and her doctor. Not because someone on a website said "Oh believe me, DO NOT trust everything your doctor said. Question what they say and do, even though they deliver thousands of babies to my few I've carried and delivered, I know so much more"
Its dangerous. Plain and simple. You are screwing with someones life by telling them that.


You're still missing the point Free. BIG TIME! As I just said above. I'm not (and I'm fairly certain others would agree) telling women to ignore all testing and ignore their Dr simply b/c of what they read online. No way! I'm saying research! Be educated!! Feel free to question your Dr. Don't just do things "because". Know why the procedures are done and if it's necessary for YOU.

Yes, I agree, not having the Group B Strep test, along with some other very valuable testing done during pregnancy, would be dangerous. But not all testing IS necessary or would put mother or baby in danger. VE's at the end of pregnancy fall into that category for most women.

What is the benefit of knowing dilation/effacement/station? Prior to labor. Seriously. I'm asking. Is it going to tell the Dr or the mother when she will go into labor? No. Is it going to tell either of them how long she will be in labor? No. What purpose does it serve to be doing it as early as 36wks? I'm asking seriously. I'm not being snarky. Position of the baby? Maybe. As I said before, I could see this as necessary for someone who's obese or seriously overweight where an abdominal palpation might not work. But for most talking to the mother and an abdominal palpation is enough without putting her and the baby at risk by doing a VE.

Again, what is the HUGE problem it could cause for her to deny a VE? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop ignoring these questions. Please give me something, some kind of evidence. I'm tired of asking for proof and just being given speculations. We know what a VE is supposed to do ... see if there is any Dilation, Ripeness, Effacement, what Station, Position of the baby and Position of the cervix. WHAT is the benefit of knowing this at 36 weeks-39weeks?

HOW is it dangerous? This is the question of the week that has yet to be answered by anyone on "your side"?

EVERY woman should feel she has the right to question her Dr, whether she's questioning b/c of something she's read online, heard from another mother or just a gut feeling. It doesn't matter why she wants to question but she should feel safe and able to. I do agree, it's between her Dr and her after that.


What possible reason do those women have for telling someone to NOT get the test?

We've gone over this, rather than just repeating, here are the reasons I found, aka possible risks (if the reasons for having it done aren't going to do anything for the mother - like me, it doesn't tell me or my dr a thing to have a VE at the end and I shared why in both threads - then the risks outweight the pros and they are risks I'm not willing to take before 39wks)


The Myth of a Vaginal Exam
Robin Elise Weiss, BA, ICCE-CPE, CLC, CD(DONA), LCCE, FACCE is a childbirth and postpartum educator, certified doula, doula trainer, lactation counselor, and proud mother of seven beautiful children.

There is a myth perpetuated in our society that vaginal exams at the end of pregnancy are beneficial. The common belief is that by doing a vaginal exam one can tell that labor will begin soon. This is not the case.

Many people try to use the information that is gathered from a vaginal exam to predict things like when labor will begin or if the baby will fit through the pelvis. A vaginal exam simply cannot measure these things.

Labor is not simply about a cervix that has dilated, softened or anything else. A woman can be very dilated and not have her baby before her due date or even near her due date. I've personally had women who were 6 centimeters dilated for weeks. Then there is the sad woman who calls me to say that her cervix is high and tight, she's been told that this baby isn't coming for awhile, only to be at her side as she gives birth within 24 hours. Vaginal exams are just not good predictors of when labor will start.

Okay, so there's not really a great reason to have a vaginal in exam done routinely for most women. So are there any reasons not to have vaginal exams? There sure are.

Vaginal exams can increase the risks of infection, even when done carefully and with sterile gloves, etc. It pushes the normal bacteria found in the vagina upwards towards the cervix. There is also increased risk of rupturing the membranes. Some practitioners routinely do what is called stripping the membranes, which simply separates the bag of waters from the cervix. The thought behind this is that it will stimulate the production of prostaglandins to help labor begin and irritate the cervix causing it to contract. This has not been shown to be effective for everyone and does have the aforementioned risks.

In the end only you and your practitioner can decide what is right for your care in pregnancy.

http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/interventions/a/vaginalexam.htm


Routine vaginal exams
Routine vaginal exams are very common in late pregnancy

Benefits: A routine vaginal exam at the end of your pregnancy actually has no benefits since your present dilation/effacement/station are not indicators of when your birthing time will begin.

Risks: There is a small risk of infection and PROM (Premature rupture of membranes) (See Henci Goer's The Thinking Woman�s Guide to a Better Birth for realities for related studies pgs 204-209) Stripping of the membranes is often done as well during a routine vaginal exam, (see below) and can casue many days of cramping, bleeding and possible sleep loss without any benefit.

Alternatives: You can tell your care provider that you would prefer not to have one. And keep your panties on.

http://www.pregnancy.org/article.php?sid=1528


Vaginal Exams in Late Pregnancy
-----------------------------

Vaginal exams have become routine in late pregnancy in most parts of the United States. We would like to believe that they tell us when labor will begin, but it really doesn't give us much of a clue.

So why do it? Well, doctors have been doing them routinely because they were taught to do them, women want to "know" how far along they are, etc. These reasons have their risks.

Having a vaginal exam can cause your membranes to rupture prematurely (making an induction necessary in the eyes of most care providers, which is also more likely to end in a cesarean), you run the risk of getting an infection which can harm both you and the baby, they can be quite painful, and a lot of people forget the emotional damage that may be done when misinterpreting the information.

Emotional damage can come when your care provider announces, "You are 2 cms dilated, the baby has dropped, I surely won't see you back in the office!" The woman gets her hopes up, but the baby doesn't come. What's wrong with her, what's wrong with her body she might ask? Well meaning friends and relatives may pick up the frenzy too. All of this is unnerving when 3 weeks later you are still going to your routine prenatal check-ups. Or the opposite scenario of, "You won't be having this baby for another couple of weeks, don't bother packing your bags." Only to have mom deliver by morning.

http://www.childbirth.org/articles/VE.html

As I said on the other site I totally agree with the emotional damage and risks. Anxiety produces adrenaline which can delay the beginning of labor. I've experienced this myself from the false sense of hope given by getting checked, the last 2.

I hosted a pg chat room for 5 yrs and saw many many many first time moms experience the anxiety and frustration I experienced with my first and last 2. It didn't stall my labor with my 1st but it certainly made the last month very depressing instead of enjoyable for me.

If/when those on the "other side" who are for it being done ROUTINELY to every pg woman could PLEASE answer the questions and provide some proof or evidence instead of speculation I'll be more than happy to continue the discussion. Again, no one is saying ALL tests are bad and/or shouldn't be done, only that women should be educated and informed and talk to their drs rather than "follow blindly" (as said above) and do things just b/c they're routine or protocol. Know WHY the things are done. After researching and consulting with one's dr they decide to go ahead with the VE, so be it, good for them, if not, don't beat them down. At least they've made an educated decision. No one is saying "don't do it b/c *I* say so". We're saying "look for yourself, talk to your Dr, for us it wasn't necessary and we feel for most women it's not necessary, but it's up to you to research and discuss with your Dr why/if it's necessary for you"

(with your quotes, you're putting ALL the wrong words in our mouth that we've never said)

[mosdata1]

That would be so scary!! I'd have been majorly pissed to and probably called to let him know!

Believe me, he got a piece of my mind!

I do agree, I trust our peds and my midwife. I wouldn't go to them if I felt I couldn't trust them or question them about things. I like the last 2 midwives I've had (as well as the midwife/OB team with my first 2 - they were husband and wife). They never made me feel stupid or silly for asking questions. Many times I've gone in to an appointment and said "I read this online" or "someone told me..." what do you think/is this true. And carefully considered what they said. 9 out of 10 times went with their view BECAUSE I trusted them and their training. I did not feel that way with the 2 OB offices I went to with my 3rd and some of the other OB's I saw with my last pregnancy. When I asked a question they would look at me like I was stupid and seemed to just shrug me off. I liked that my midwives would explain to me why it was true or false information and why they did need to do it, like with the group B strep I asked about on MWT. I had been told it wasn't necessary by someone and asked about it. She fully explained why it was and along with my own reseach and other ppl's experiences I agreed with her and had it done.

My point is that it should be ok to be informed and research things on our own and we should feel comfortable enough with our Dr to ask them about it, not just do everything b/c it's "protocol" or "routine". This is where I agree with you about "blindly following" them. That would be doing things "just b/c" it's always been done that way and not knowing why or if it still needs to be done for your particular situation.

Okay, so you & I are pretty much on the same page. I also thought most of the moms over there were saying that you should not be checked, as more of a blanket statement.
I usually have more ?? for my childrens' Dr than my own. DH used to ask me why I questioned everything, but stopped once he realized what a loser that other ped was.

Also, I don't question the Dr just to be difficult, I question them so I can fully understand. We have finally found a Dr I feel comfortable with in FL and that took us almost 11 years! She is great, if she is performing tests, she tells you what they are & why they are being performed. She breaks everything down in plain english & gives you a full explaination before you can even ask the question. She also acknowledges that 'non-conventional' options are out there for her patients.
Another great thing about her is that she speaks to & questions my children. She doesn't only ask me what is going on with them.

[freeby4me]

My quotes im saying coming from someone in general. If I wanted a specific quote, I would quote specific.

[pwfaith]

I dont know the answer to this. I am not the one who went to medical school to learn it. I trust my doctor. Why would I search out information on something I trust them about? That doesnt make any sense.
Of course I asked questions when I was pregnant. But I sure the hell didnt believe I knew more than my doctor did for me.
Maybe you think you know more because of how many kids you have Sarah. Thats fine for you, but maybe not for someone else. Even if I did end up pregnant again, I still wouldnt "understand and trust" my body as i've spent much more of my life not pregnant. That to me feels normal, not the 9 mines I shared it with someone else.

If you don't know the answer why are you arguing with ppl who have researched, studied and even one who DID go to medical school and learned it?

Why research? Um, just to be informed and b/c Dr's aren't God and sometimes do treat patients across the board rather than as individuals. I guess it' just me, I like to be informed about what's being done and why.

I don't believe I know more than my dr either.

No, but having 5 children over the last 7.5 years has prompted me to study and learn more about tests and procedures and why they are done and if they are necessary or not. I'm not afraid of knowledge or to question if I'm unsure of something. I'm also not afraid to say I was wrong and go with what the Dr wants to do. Thankfully I DO also trust my Dr, I ask questions b/c I like to know things, as I said if she had thought it was necessary and explained to me why I would have done it probably, thankfully she trusts me too and agreed things like VE's weren't necessary for most women and if I didn't want it done, it was fine.

Maybe it's b/c I've spent 45 months of the last 8 yrs pg. I wouldn't expect a first time mom to be AS intune with her body but I would certainly encourage her to listen to her body. A Dr cannot know what she is feeling. How can they? They can talk to her and know though. Communication is very important.

Ok, let's say a first time mom goes in at 36wks, gets checked and is 1cm. Goes in at 37wks, is still 1cm. Does this mean she's not going to give birth until 40+wks? Nope, she could still give birth the next day. What if she goes in at 36wks and is 3cm? Is she going to give birth that night? Nope, she could stay that way until 42wks. Again, if all a VE tells is dilation, effacement, station, etc what does it mean? As was said on the other site (which I didn't know, learned something new, wish I had known though) a woman who's had 3 or more can stay at 3cm for months evan.

I've read of women who were at 4 or 5cm for weeks and not in labor. Usually they consider you in labor at 4cm. Every womans' body is different and progresses differently. What exactly is a VE going to tell the Dr or the mother?

[ahippiechic]

If you don't know the answer why are you arguing with ppl who have researched, studied and even one who DID go to medical school and learned it?



If that's the case, why should she question her Dr either? After all, he has researched, studied, and went to med school too.

That said, I think a woman has the right & responsibility, to question and/or refuse. I'm so glad neither of my OB's wanted to do very many VE's.

[pwfaith]

Okay, so you & I are pretty much on the same page. I also thought most of the moms over there were saying that you should not be checked, as more of a blanket statement.
I usually have more ?? for my childrens' Dr than my own. DH used to ask me why I questioned everything, but stopped once he realized what a loser that other ped was.

Also, I don't question the Dr just to be difficult, I question them so I can fully understand. We have finally found a Dr I feel comfortable with in FL and that took us almost 11 years! She is great, if she is performing tests, she tells you what they are & why they are being performed. She breaks everything down in plain english & gives you a full explaination before you can even ask the question. She also acknowledges that 'non-conventional' options are out there for her patients.
Another great thing about her is that she speaks to & questions my children. She doesn't only ask me what is going on with them.

I think most women are saying both, honestly. That it's good to research, question and know what's being done and why as well as that for MOST women a VE at the end of pg isn't necessary. We're seriously asking what harm will come from refusing to be checked. I think it's frustrating that no one would answer that question. We're not asking b/c we think you or we know more than a Dr but for something solid. And just that ppl recognize there are risks associated with being checked. I think the main point is that for some they thing getting checked will tell them when they will go into labor, and it simply won't tell them or the Dr that.

I'm not crunchy lol I don't see this as cruchy, just being informed and making an informed decision with you dr. I do like things as natural as possible, when possible. I've read and studied a lot over the last few years. I changed on a few things evan this last time, like wanting to delay the cord clamping. I'd actually never really researched it before until this last one. The more I read the more I wondered why they clamp it right off. I don't necessarily agree with some of the more "hard-core" views on it but the more I read the more logical it seemed to wait a bit so baby could get all that blood and oxygen rather than just throw it out. Unfortunately, b/c of complications they couldn't wait.

I don't think anyone is suggesting putting a baby in danger just to be more "crunchy", just consider the information given. Doing things more naturally isn't always a bad thing either and doesn't mean a person is "extreme". ;) I think as a society we sometimes rely too heavily on medicine and medical interventions, esp when something is natural and doesn't need to be "messed with" in the first place. That certainly does not mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater :) though.

[freeby4me]

What we're saying is we dont know the answer. Thats something the doctor would know. Not us. So you asking us is going to get the same answer. Why would we even know LOL

[pwfaith]

If that's the case, why should she question her Dr either? After all, he has researched, studied, and went to med school too.

That said, I think a woman has the right & responsibility, to question and/or refuse. I'm so glad neither of my OB's wanted to do very many VE's.

As I said, I've found that a big difference between OB's and midwives is that OB's want to treat every woman in an "across the board" type manner rather than taking the time to listen to them and consider what's right for them inparticular. I think this is just one of those areas where it's not necessary for every woman but instead of taking the time to listen and work with them they just do it to everyone. Taking the time out of their busy schedule to listen instead means they get put behind in their schedule and/or might miss out on another patient and their $$. I know not all drs are like that but imo and experience many are. Most OB's I've seen want to get you in and out, not only in their office but in the delivery room as well. My midwives weren't like that (and I had one OB who wasn't) They asked questions, took the time to listen and seemed to generally care about me and my baby. I wasn't just another passing patient to them. Too many Dr's treat their patients like just another "patient" not a person, not an individual.

I don't want to be treated like that. I don't want to be treated as just "routine". I'm an individual. My body is different than the woman they saw before me. My needs are different than hers and I want to be treated personally and medically as such. Who wouldn't?

[pwfaith]

What we're saying is we dont know the answer. Thats something the doctor would know. Not us. So you asking us is going to get the same answer. Why would we even know LOL

So ask the Dr. I've had 8 OB's (2 offices with multiple physicians), 3 midwives and 1 family practitioner. All the Drs I had during that last 2 months time frame ( 4-5 OBs, 3 midwives and 1 FP we movd a lot LOL) all agreed, when asked, that it wasn't necessary. You don't need to be a medical professional to research, read and study on your own either. And you DID have the opinion of one medical professional, who agreed it's not necessary and explained why.
I'm not asking for a medically professionals opinion. Look online for all I care, I'll read what you find, that tells what the benefits are and what it can tell the Dr or the mother. (not being snarky)

*I* just want women to know the associated risks and that it's ok to question their dr about this particular procedure and if it's necessary or not and why. After that, if they still want a VE at the end of pregnancy, I think that's fine, at least they're making an informed decision and know the risks.

[ahippiechic]

That's why I loved both my OB's. My son was born almost 28 years ago and I was 16 and CLUELESS, lol! So I was very lucky to find one that took the time to explain the reasons behind things and let me make my own decisions. He called me his "hippie patient', because I wanted thing as natural as possible. My DD is 6 now and I had a great OB with her too, I also saw the midwife who worked with his office on several appointments and she was the one who ended up delivering my DD.

[pwfaith]

That's why I loved both my OB's. My son was born almost 28 years ago and I was 16 and CLUELESS, lol! So I was very lucky to find one that took the time to explain the reasons behind things and let me make my own decisions. He called me his "hippie patient', because I wanted thing as natural as possible. My DD is 6 now and I had a great OB with her too, I also saw the midwife who worked with his office on several appointments and she was the one who ended up delivering my DD.

Sounds like you were fortunate to have a good Dr. Most of mine have been as well, with the exception of the ones we had while in the military and 1 or 2 I saw at the office with my last one. I normally saw the midwife though.

I'd love to continue this but I have laundry to do :lol and need to put all the laundry away from last week that my parents did. I think all has been said that I can say. I just didn't care for the original impression given (so it seemed) here that we were some kind of backwooded hooligans that didn't have any reason or information to back up our "claims". :)

[freeby4me]

Well ya know Sarah you need to come here and just post to enjoy posting. Get to know some of the people here. Enjoy the freebies. We love new members and the views they bring.

[ladybugva]

Well ya know Sarah you need to come here and just post to enjoy posting. Get to know some of the people here. Enjoy the freebies. We love new members and the views they bring.

As long as they agree w/ ours.
Sorry couldn't resist that one after 11 pgs of going back and forth :rolling

[freeby4me]

As long as they agree w/ ours.
Sorry couldn't resist that one after 11 pgs of going back and forth :rolling

I thought that was implied LOL (jk LOL)

[ahippiechic]

Yes, because we all know how we always agree with each other over here! :D

[freeby4me]

Yes, because we all know how we always agree with each other over here! :D

You're just jealous because we have prettier uhhwhoo's LOL :star:

[ahippiechic]

You're just jealous because we have prettier uhhwhoo's LOL :star:

I already told ya mine is beautiful! :star:

[freeby4me]

What can we say, the guys are blinded by our beauty!!

[pwfaith]

Well ya know Sarah you need to come here and just post to enjoy posting. Get to know some of the people here. Enjoy the freebies. We love new members and the views they bring.

I guess I'm one of the ones who feels I can get that from the "other site" ;) After some of the forums I've been in and how it use to be, MWT is pretty mild now. I've been to some real whoppers. You joke about only if they agree, other sites I've been to if you weren't liberal and see eye-to-eye with them you didn't get raked over the coals you got ripped to shreds. They were more the "anything goes" type sites too, you could say anything you wanted with pretty much no reprecutions and they had now qualms about giving it to you fully. They did not hold back. You had to have extra tough skin to even get past the first round with them lol MWT is def. mild compared to other sites I've been to, big time!

[freeby4me]

Yea, thats why I like going to both. I get more of the fiesty action over there. But I started out here, a long time ago and overall, this is my BBS family. I definately feel an online family connection over there too.

Its nice having both.

[iluvmybaby]

I think that it is a womens choice, always do your research and make informed decisions. I do believe that some Dr's do things, "just because," to run up the bills. You go to the Dr with the flu and end up with $400 worth of blood work, $150 to see the Dr for 5 minutes, and the advice to just drink plenty of fluids and get plenty of rest.

[Pepsi4me]

What can we say, the guys are blinded by our beauty!!

I thought they were blinded by our Yoohas!........LMAO!!:rolling :rolling :rolling

[galeane29]

The only time in the 3 pregnancies I have had that I had a Pelvic exam
was if I was having problems or during labor. Just stating my experiences.:)