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freeby4me
07-24-2007, 07:55 AM
I watched a show last night on the Shroud of Turin and was wondering what peoples thoughts are on it. Is it real or fake?? Was it "replaced" with a duplicate? What about the idea that Jesus may have been alive when taken off the cross and put in the tomb to be healed, that he may have lived a long healthful life. I would like some opinions!

Val1
07-24-2007, 08:09 AM
I believe that scientific methods actually dated the shroud to be several hundred years after the time of Jesus - I'm pretty sure I read that. While I think it is an important artifact, I am not convinced it was Jesus' burial shroud, and I do not believe that he was "healed" of his crucifixion and led a long life.

ahippiechic
07-24-2007, 10:32 AM
I also believe that while it's an important artifact, it's not the shroud of Jesus.

Also, for those who believe it is, that would mean that Jesus didn't die on the cross, like was prophesized. Then he wouldn't be the messiah.

cathych
07-24-2007, 05:52 PM
How on earth can you really whose shroud it was?

renaissanceman
07-25-2007, 01:05 AM
The historicity of this item has been called into question TOOOO many times. It is in my opinion a total fake designed to make someone in antiquity some loot.

As to the other claims, Jesus died on the cross just as recorded in the Bible.

IF this were not so the core of Jesus's believers would have known it, and the whole point of the Christian faith would be a sham. Many of the apostles and others who followed Jesus ended up suffering great persecutions (prison time, beatings and crucifixion as well) why on earth would they do that if Jesus was laid up somewhere with a wife and kids?

These sorts of attacks have been popping up OVER an OVER just to undermine belief in Christ.

janelle
07-25-2007, 10:41 AM
The historicity of this item has been called into question TOOOO many times. It is in my opinion a total fake designed to make someone in antiquity some loot.

As to the other claims, Jesus died on the cross just as recorded in the Bible.

IF this were not so the core of Jesus's believers would have known it, and the whole point of the Christian faith would be a sham. Many of the apostles and others who followed Jesus ended up suffering great persecutions (prison time, beatings and crucifixion as well) why on earth would they do that if Jesus was laid up somewhere with a wife and kids?

These sorts of attacks have been popping up OVER an OVER just to undermine belief in Christ.


This time I agree with renaissanceman. How anyone could survive a crucifixion is beyond me. Did you watch "The Passion of Christ"? First a scourging than carrying his cross until He had no more strength and being nailed to it to die. Then to make sure he was dead a soldier thrust a lance into His side.

WOW, if anyone could have survived that then he would have been in a terrible way which no doctor could have cured. That one is a bigger wacko theory than the Da Vinvi Code. Roll eyes.

freeby4me
07-25-2007, 11:06 AM
This time I agree with renaissanceman. How anyone could survive a crucifixion is beyond me. Did you watch "The Passion of Christ"? First a scourging than carrying his cross until He had no more strength and being nailed to it to die. Then to make sure he was dead a soldier thrust a lance into His side.

WOW, if anyone could have survived that then he would have been in a terrible way which no doctor could have cured. That one is a bigger wacko theory than the Da Vinvi Code. Roll eyes.


Actually there is evidence/proof that people were known to live after being on the cross for 5 days! Yes, 5 days. He was on there for 3 hours. As far as the lance in his side, they say it "trickled" blood.
As far as "surviving that" many many people survived much worse. I understand the anger about it though, if something like this is true it would mean the entire basis of the faith is false.

janelle
07-25-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't know about those but where they scourged first? And if anyone lived would they go on the have a healthy life? Not likely, it wasn't Hollywood when anything is possible through computers and actors walk away.

renaissanceman
07-25-2007, 11:29 AM
Actually there is evidence/proof that people were known to live after being on the cross for 5 days! Yes, 5 days. He was on there for 3 hours. As far as the lance in his side, they say it "trickled" blood.
As far as "surviving that" many many people survived much worse. I understand the anger about it though, if something like this is true it would mean the entire basis of the faith is false.

Very true! However, the evidence given in the biblical account has been evaluated several times by M.D.'s and they agree that most likely Jesus WAS dead before he wsa taken off the cross. Then youhave the fact that the Jewish authorities hated Jesus and KNEW that he had prophesied his own return.

They would make sure that he REALLY was dead before releasing his body to his followers. Then you have the body disappearing from a tomb which was guarded by Roman Centurions. Then you have MULTIPLE witnesses seeing Jesus in apparent good health and spirits just 3 days after the horrible injustices his body would have suffered.

I recommend that everyone read The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. It has some of the biggest questions that non believers raise about Christ being addressed by many different experts in diffferent fields.

janelle
07-25-2007, 11:42 AM
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780310242109&itm=10


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9780310226055&itm=1

Here are the books R is referring to.

freeby4me
07-25-2007, 11:43 AM
Very true! However, the evidence given in the biblical account has been evaluated several times by M.D.'s and they agree that most likely Jesus WAS dead before he wsa taken off the cross. Then youhave the fact that the Jewish authorities hated Jesus and KNEW that he had prophesied his own return.

They would make sure that he REALLY was dead before releasing his body to his followers. Then you have the body disappearing from a tomb which was guarded by Roman Centurions. Then you have MULTIPLE witnesses seeing Jesus in apparent good health and spirits just 3 days after the horrible injustices his body would have suffered.

I recommend that everyone read The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. It has some of the biggest questions that non believers raise about Christ being addressed by many different experts in diffferent fields.

All of these I see as questions though. As for the book, Im not sure I really want to read it as its a "Retracing his own spiritual journey from atheism to faith" I understand the WANT to read a book by someone who's now found faith but I prefer something slightly less biased. I know I know, try finding someone whos not biased on some extent but I like finding questions and answers all around. I dunno, dont ask.

ahippiechic
07-25-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't know about those but where they scourged first? And if anyone lived would they go on the have a healthy life? Not likely, it wasn't Hollywood when anything is possible through computers and actors walk away.

I think Christ COULD have survived the crucifixion, people did. But I think Christ died on the cross, as prophetised.

I don't think the shroud is a fake, I just don't think it belonged Christ. But whoever it did belong to, was still alive when wrapped in it.

janelle
07-25-2007, 12:10 PM
I think Christ COULD have survived the crucifixion, people did. But I think Christ died on the cross, as prophetised.

I don't think the shroud is a fake, I just don't think it belonged Christ. But whoever it did belong to, was still alive when wrapped in it.

The reason they think it is real is the person it belonged to bears the same wounds as Christ did. The crown of thorns, etc. You can go to the web site. http://www.shroud.com/ Plus many others about it.

Jolie Rouge
02-13-2014, 07:38 PM
See also http://www.bigbigforums.com/religion-prayers/628542-shroud-turin-debunked.html#post96261556


Could ancient earthquake explain Shroud of Turin?
By Megan Gannon / Published February 12, 2014

The authenticity of the Shroud of Turin has been in question for centuries and scientific investigations over the last few decades have only seemed to muddle the debate. Is the revered cloth a miracle or an elaborate hoax?

Now, a study claims neutron emissions from an ancient earthquake that rocked Jerusalem could have created the iconic image, as well as messed up the radiocarbon levels that later suggested the shroud was a medieval forgery. But other scientists say this newly proposed premise leaves some major questions unanswered.

The Shroud of Turin, which bears a faint image of a man's face and torso, is said to be the fabric that covered Jesus' body after his crucifixion in A.D. 33. Though the Catholic Church doesn't have an official position on the cloth, the relic is visited by tens of thousands of worshippers at the Turin Cathedral in Italy each year.

Carbon and quakes

Radiocarbon dating tests conducted at three different labs in the 1980s indicated the cloth was less than 800 years old, produced in the Middle Ages, between approximately A.D. 1260 and 1390. The first records of the shroud begin to appear in medieval sources around the same time, which skeptics don't think is a coincidence. Those results were published in the journal Nature in 1989. But critics in favor of a much older date for the cloth have alleged that those researchers took a sample of fabric that was used to patch up the burial shroud in the medieval period, or that the fabric had been subjected to fires, contamination and other damaged that skewed the results.



'If you want to believe in the Shroud of Turin, you believe in it.'

- Gordon Cook, a professor of environmental geochemistry at the University of Glasgow

The new theory hinges on neutrons released by a devastating earthquake that hit Old Jerusalem around the same time that Jesus is believed to have died. [Who Was Jesus, the Man?]

All living things have the same ratio of stable carbon to radioactive carbon-14, but after death, the radioactive carbon decays in a predictable pattern over time. That's why scientists can look at the carbon-14 concentration in organic archaeological materials like fabrics, bones and wood to estimate age. Carbon-14 is typically created when neutrons from cosmic rays collide with nitrogen atoms in the atmosphere (though it can be unleashed by manmade nuclear reactions, too).

The group of scientists, led by Alberto Carpinteri of the Politecnico di Torino in Italy, suspect high-frequency pressure waves generated in the Earth's crust during this earthquake could have produced significant neutron emissions. (They simulated this by crushing very brittle rock specimens under a press machine.)

These neutron emissions could have interacted directly with nitrogen atoms in the linen fibers, inducing chemical reactions that created the distinctive face image on the shroud, the scientists say. The reactions also could have led to "a wrong radiocarbon dating," which would explain the results of the 1989 experiments, Carpinteri said in a statement.

Giulio Fanti, a professor of mechanical engineering at Padua University, published a book last year "Il Mistero della Sindone," translated as "The Mystery of the Shroud," (Rizzoli, 2013), arguing that his own analysis proves the shroud dates to Jesus' lifetime. In an email, Fanti said he is not sure if a neutron emission is the only possible source responsible for creating the body image. (His own theories include a corona discharge.) However, he wrote that he is "confident" the 1980s radiocarbon dating "furnished wrong results probably due to a neutron emission."

Shaky science?

Even if it is theoretically possible for earthquake-generated neutrons to have caused this kind of reaction, the study doesn't address why this effect hasn't been seen elsewhere in the archaeological record, Gordon Cook, a professor of environmental geochemistry at the University of Glasgow, explained. "It would have to be a really local effect not to be measurable elsewhere," Cook told Live Science. "People have been measuring materials of that age for decades now and nobody has ever encountered this."

Christopher Ramsey, director of the Oxford Radiocarbon Accelerator Unit, had a similar issue with the findings. "One question that would need to be addressed is why the material here is affected, but other archaeological and geological material in the ground is not," Ramsey wrote in an email. "There are huge numbers of radiocarbon dates from the region for much older archaeological material, which certainly don't show this type of intense in-situ radiocarbon production (and they would be much more sensitive to any such effects)."

Ramsey added that using radiocarbon dating to study objects from seismically active regions, such as regions like Japan, generally has not been problematic.

It seems unlikely that the new study, published in the journal Meccanica, will settle any of the long-standing disputes about how and when the cloth was made, which depend largely on faith. "If you want to believe in the Shroud of Turin, you believe in it," Cook said.

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/02/11/shroud-turin-could-ancient-earthquake-explain-face-jesus/