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Jolie Rouge
07-06-2007, 10:43 AM
Islam denies the divinity of Christ;
Christianity doesn’t function without the divinity of Christ.


Episcopal priest or Muslim?
Redding will have a year to think about it
By Janet I. Tu -- Seattle Times religion reporter
Thursday, July 5, 2007


The Rev. Ann Holmes Redding, a local Episcopal priest who announced she is both Muslim and Christian, will not be able to serve as a priest for a year, according to her bishop.

During that year, Redding is expected to "reflect on the doctrines of the Christian faith, her vocation as a priest, and what I see as the conflicts inherent in professing both Christianity and Islam," the Rt. Rev. Geralyn Wolf, bishop of the Diocese of Rhode Island, wrote in an e-mail to Episcopal Church leaders.

Redding was ordained more than 20 years ago by the then-bishop of Rhode Island, and it is that diocese that has disciplinary authority over her.

During the next year, Redding "is not to exercise any of the responsibilities and privileges of an Episcopal priest or deacon," Wolf wrote in her e-mail. Wolf could not be reached for immediate comment. "I'm deeply saddened, but I've always said I would abide by the rulings of my bishop," said Redding, who met with Wolf last week. Redding, who characterized their conversation as amicable, said the two would continue to communicate throughout the year.

During the meeting, Redding said she took off her priest's collar and accepted Wolf's invitation to hold it for the year. "I understand she's holding it as an indication that we're both in this together," Redding said.

At the end of the year, the two will revisit the issue. "I understand that one of my options would be to voluntarily leave the priesthood," Redding said.

At this moment, though, she is not willing to do that. "The church is going to have to divorce me if it comes to that," she said. "I'm not going to go willingly." But she also doesn't completely rule it out, saying: "God will guide me over this year."

Redding's bishop in Seattle, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner of the Diocese of Olympia, who accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, said Wolf's decision is a good compromise. "It's a good way to have a timeout and provide an opportunity for Ann to continue to teach ... and at the same time take a look at her relationship both with the Episcopal Church and the Christian faith and Islam," Warner said.

Redding is scheduled to start teaching part time as a visiting assistant professor at Jesuit-run Seattle University this fall. But she will not be able to teach, preach or work at any Episcopal church or institution during the next year, she said.

Redding, who until March was director of faith formation at Seattle's St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, has been a priest for 23 years.

In June, she announced publicly that, for the past 15 months, she's also been a Muslim — drawn to the faith after an introduction to Muslim prayers left her profoundly moved.

While her announcement perplexed many, some supported her personal spiritual journey and her larger efforts to find common ground between Christianity and Islam.

But others were critical, saying it wasn't possible to be both Christian and Muslim. And some took issue with her being a leader within the Episcopal Church while also professing another faith.

Some also saw Redding's announcement as another sign that the Episcopal Church was veering too far away from Scripture, doctrine and tradition. The Episcopal Church, which is the U.S. branch of the worldwide Anglican Communion, is already embroiled in deep conflict with the Communion over scriptural interpretation on issues such as homosexuality and the ordination of women.

Redding says she understands that "the last thing the church needs to deal with at this time is this type of doctrinal dispute. I wish it could've been at a more convenient time. But as far as I know, I am responding to God's will and God's timing."

For her part, Redding said she didn't feel a need to reconcile all the differences between the two faiths but felt that at the most basic level, they are compatible.

She believes she has not violated any of her baptismal or ordination vows. And "since entering Islam," she said, "I have been, by my own estimation, a better teacher, a better preacher and a better Christian."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003776789_webredding05m.html

Jolie Rouge
07-06-2007, 10:46 AM
"I am both Muslim and Christian"
By Janet I. Tu - Seattle Times religion reporter
June 17, 2007

Shortly after noon on Fridays, the Rev. Ann Holmes Redding ties on a black headscarf, preparing to pray with her Muslim group on First Hill.

On Sunday mornings, Redding puts on the white collar of an Episcopal priest.

She does both, she says, because she's Christian and Muslim.

Redding, who until recently was director of faith formation at St. Mark's Episcopal Cathedral, has been a priest for more than 20 years. Now she's ready to tell people that, for the last 15 months, she's also been a Muslim — drawn to the faith after an introduction to Islamic prayers left her profoundly moved.

Her announcement has provoked surprise and bewilderment in many, raising an obvious question: How can someone be both a Christian and a Muslim?

But it has drawn other reactions too. Friends generally say they support her, while religious scholars are mixed: Some say that, depending on how one interprets the tenets of the two faiths, it is, indeed, possible to be both. Others consider the two faiths mutually exclusive.

"There are tenets of the faiths that are very, very different," said Kurt Fredrickson, director of the doctor of ministry program at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif. "The most basic would be: What do you do with Jesus?"

Christianity has historically regarded Jesus as the son of God and God incarnate, both fully human and fully divine. Muslims, though they regard Jesus as a great prophet, do not see him as divine and do not consider him the son of God.

"I don't think it's possible" to be both, Fredrickson said, just like "you can't be a Republican and a Democrat."

Redding, who will begin teaching the New Testament as a visiting assistant professor at Seattle University this fall, has a different analogy: "I am both Muslim and Christian, just like I'm both an American of African descent and a woman. I'm 100 percent both."

Redding doesn't feel she has to resolve all the contradictions. People within one religion can't even agree on all the details, she said. "So why would I spend time to try to reconcile all of Christian belief with all of Islam?

"At the most basic level, I understand the two religions to be compatible. That's all I need."

She says she felt an inexplicable call to become Muslim, and to surrender to God — the meaning of the word "Islam."

"It wasn't about intellect," she said. "All I know is the calling of my heart to Islam was very much something about my identity and who I am supposed to be.

"I could not not be a Muslim."

Redding's situation is highly unusual. Officials at the national Episcopal Church headquarters said they are not aware of any other instance in which a priest has also been a believer in another faith. They said it's up to the local bishop to decide whether such a priest could continue in that role.

Redding's bishop, the Rt. Rev. Vincent Warner, says he accepts Redding as an Episcopal priest and a Muslim, and that he finds the interfaith possibilities exciting. Her announcement, first made through a story in her diocese's newspaper, hasn't caused much controversy yet, he said.

Some local Muslim leaders are perplexed.

Being both Muslim and Christian — "I don't know how that works," said Hisham Farajallah, president of the Islamic Center of Washington.

But Redding has been embraced by leaders at the Al-Islam Center of Seattle, the Muslim group she prays with.

"Islam doesn't say if you're a Christian, you're not a Muslim," said programming director Ayesha Anderson. "Islam doesn't lay it out like that."

Redding believes telling her story can help ease religious tensions, and she hopes it can be a step toward her dream of creating an institute to study Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

"I think this thing that's happened to me can be a sign of hope," she said.

Finding a religion that fit

Redding is 55 and single, with deep brown eyes, dreadlocks and a voice that becomes easily impassioned when talking about faith. She's also a classically trained singer, and has sung at jazz nights at St. Mark's.

The oldest of three girls, Redding grew up in Pennsylvania in a high-achieving, intellectual family. Her father was one of the lawyers who argued the landmark Brown v. Board of Education Supreme Court case that desegregated the nation's public schools. Her mother was in the first class of Fulbright scholars.

Though her parents weren't particularly religious, they had her baptized and sent her to an Episcopal Sunday school. She has always sensed that God existed and God loved her, even when things got bleak — which they did.

She experienced racism in schools, was sexually abused and, by the time she was a young adult, was struggling with alcohol addiction; she's been in recovery for 20 years.

Despite those difficulties, she graduated from Brown University, earned master's degrees from two seminaries and received her Ph.D. in New Testament from Union Theological Seminary in New York City. She felt called to the priesthood and was ordained in 1984.

As much as she loves her church, she has always challenged it. She calls Christianity the "world religion of privilege." She has never believed in original sin. And for years she struggled with the nature of Jesus' divinity.

She found a good fit at St. Mark's, coming to the flagship of the Episcopal Church in Western Washington in 2001. She was in charge of programs to form and deepen people's faith until March this year when she was one of three employees laid off for budget reasons. The dean of the cathedral said Redding's exploration of Islam had nothing to do with her layoff.

Ironically, it was at St. Mark's that she first became drawn to Islam.

In fall 2005, a local Muslim leader gave a talk at the cathedral, then prayed before those attending. Redding was moved. As he dropped to his knees and stretched forward against the floor, it seemed to her that his whole body was involved in surrendering to God.

Then in the spring, at a St. Mark's interfaith class, another Muslim leader taught a chanted prayer and led a meditation on opening one's heart. The chanting appealed to the singer in Redding; the meditation spoke to her heart. She began saying the prayer daily.

Around that time, her mother died, and then "I was in a situation that I could not handle by any other means, other than a total surrender to God," she said.

She still doesn't know why that meant she had to become a Muslim. All she knows is "when God gives you an invitation, you don't turn it down."

In March 2006, she said her shahada — the profession of faith — testifying that there is only one God and that Mohammed is his messenger. She became a Muslim.

Before she took the shahada, she read a lot about Islam. Afterward, she learned from local Muslim leaders, including those in Islam's largest denomination — Sunni — and those in the Sufi mystical tradition of Islam. She began praying with the Al-Islam Center, a Sunni group that is predominantly African-American.

There were moments when practicing Islam seemed like coming home.

In Seattle's Episcopal circles, Redding had mixed largely with white people. "To walk into Al-Islam and be reminded that there are more people of color in the world than white people, that in itself is a relief," she said.

She found the discipline of praying five times a day — one of the five pillars of Islam that all Muslims are supposed to follow — gave her the deep sense of connection with God that she yearned for.

It came from "knowing at all times I'm in between prayers." She likens it to being in love, constantly looking forward to having "all these dates with God. ... Living a life where you're remembering God intentionally, consciously, just changes everything."

Friends who didn't know she was practicing Islam told her she glowed.

Aside from the established sets of prayers she recites in Arabic fives times each day, Redding says her prayers are neither uniquely Islamic nor Christian. They're simply her private talks with God or Allah — she uses both names interchangeably. "It's the same person, praying to the same God."

In many ways, she says, "coming to Islam was like coming into a family with whom I'd been estranged. We have not only the same God, but the same ancestor with Abraham."

( continued ... )

Jolie Rouge
07-06-2007, 10:46 AM
A shared beginning

Indeed, Islam, Christianity and Judaism trace their roots to Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism who is also considered the spiritual father of all three faiths. They share a common belief in one God, and there are certain similar stories in their holy texts.

But there are many significant differences, too.

Muslims regard the Quran as the unadulterated word of God, delivered through the angel Gabriel to Mohammed. While they believe the Torah and the Gospels include revelations from God, they believe those revelations have been misinterpreted or mishandled by humans.

Most significantly, Muslims and Christians disagree over the divinity of Jesus.

Muslims generally believe in Jesus' virgin birth, that he was a messenger of God, that he ascended to heaven alive and that he will come back at the end of time to destroy evil. They do not believe in the Trinity, in the divinity of Jesus or in his death and resurrection.

For Christians, belief in Jesus' divinity, and that he died on the cross and was resurrected, lie at the heart of the faith, as does the belief that there is one God who consists of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Redding's views, even before she embraced Islam, were more interpretive than literal.

She believes the Trinity is an idea about God and cannot be taken literally.

She does not believe Jesus and God are the same, but rather that God is more than Jesus.

She believes Jesus is the son of God insofar as all humans are the children of God, and that Jesus is divine, just as all humans are divine ó because God dwells in all humans.

What makes Jesus unique, she believes, is that out of all humans, he most embodied being filled with God and identifying completely with God's will.

She does believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected, and acknowledges those beliefs conflict with the teachings of the Quran. "That's something I'll find a challenge the rest of my life," she said.

She considers Jesus her savior. At times of despair, because she knows Jesus suffered and overcame suffering, "he has connected me with God," she said.

That's not to say she couldn't develop as deep a relationship with Mohammed. "I'm still getting to know him," she said.

Matter of interpretation

Some religious scholars understand Redding's thinking.

While the popular Christian view is that Jesus is God and that he came to Earth and took on a human body, other Christians believe his divinity means that he embodied the spirit of God in his life and work, said Eugene Webb, professor emeritus of comparative religion at the University of Washington.

Webb says it's possible to be both Muslim and Christian: "It's a matter of interpretation. But a lot of people on both sides do not believe in interpretation. "

Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky, agrees with Webb, and adds that Islam tends to be a little more flexible. Muslims can have faith in Jesus, he said, as long as they believe in Mohammed's message.

Other scholars are skeptical.

"The theological beliefs are irreconcilable," said Mahmoud Ayoub, professor of Islamic studies and comparative religion at Temple University in Philadelphia. Islam holds that God is one, unique, indivisible. "For Muslims to say Jesus is God would be blasphemy."

Frank Spina, an Episcopal priest and also a professor of Old Testament and biblical theology at Seattle Pacific University, puts it bluntly.

"I just do not think this sort of thing works," he said. "I think you have to give up what is essential to Christianity to make the moves that she has done.

"The essence of Christianity was not that Jesus was a great rabbi or even a great prophet, but that he is the very incarnation of the God that created the world.... Christianity stands or falls on who Jesus is."

Spina also says that as priests, he and Redding have taken vows of commitment to the doctrines of the church. "That means none of us get to work out what we think all by ourselves."

Redding knows there are many Christians and Muslims who will not accept her as both.

"I don't care," she says. "They can't take away my baptism." And as she understands it, once she's made her profession of faith to become a Muslim, no one can say she isn't that, either.

While she doesn't rule out that one day she may choose one or the other, it's more likely "that I'm going to be 100 percent Christian and 100 percent Muslim when I die."

Deepened spirituality

These days, Redding usually carries a headscarf with her wherever she goes so she can pray five times a day.

On Fridays, she prays with about 20 others at the Al-Islam Center. On Sundays, she prays in church, usually at St. Clement's of Rome in the Mount Baker neighborhood.

One thing she prays for every day: "I pray not to cause scandal or bring shame upon either of my traditions."

Being Muslim has given her insights into Christianity, she said. For instance, because Islam regards Jesus as human, not divine, it reinforces for her that "we can be like Jesus. There are no excuses."

Doug Thorpe, who served on St. Mark's faith-formation committee with Redding, said he's trying to understand all the dimensions of her faith choices. But he saw how it deepened her spirituality. And it spurred him to read the Quran and think more deeply about his own faith.

He believes Redding is being called. She is, "by her very presence, a bridge person," Thorpe said. "And we desperately need those bridge persons."

In Redding's car, she has hung up a cross she made of clear crystal beads. Next to it, she has dangled a heart-shaped leather object etched with the Arabic symbol for Allah. "For me, that symbolizes who I am," Redding said. "I look through Jesus and I see Allah."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2003751274&zsection_id=2002111777&slug=redding17m&date=20070617

Jolie Rouge
07-06-2007, 10:57 AM
This is a classic example of doublethink - the belief of two completely contradictory beliefs at the same time.



There’s breaking news that Imam Redding just launched a suicide attack upon herself as an apostate when she attempted to put on her reverend’s garb, then denied the attack was perpetrated by a Muslim by pointing at the reverend garb she had half on. A recovering Rev. Redding accepted responsibility for the misunderstanding at which point she punched herself in the nose and cried “Allah Akbar!”

DtroitPunk
07-12-2007, 08:19 PM
This person (THE MINISTER) also totally skirts the issue that The Bible amd the Koran (so by extension Bible believing Christians and Muslims) DOES NOT recognize Women as Ministers, priests etc. Although for different reasons. Islam is a notoriously misogynistic religion. Conservative Christians dont recognize women as ministers because of clear teachings in the bible.

I know that some of you are going to be really upset with me, but Catholicicsm doesnt ordain Women as priests for many of the same reasons.

So PLEASE folks realize that I am not saying that a woman COULDNT perform the same Functions as a man in the Ministry, only that this was never Gods intention according to the Bible.

DtroitPunk
07-12-2007, 08:32 PM
This also seems to be directed to get her a LOT of attention. She is already a Christian minster, and now she wants a national stage so she says she is a Christian AND a Muslim!

Matt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

This was primarily making a distinction between serving God or Money, but it holds true for this as well. NOONE can serve two masters.

You cannot say that you worship Allah and Jesus. This is like saying that you are pro choice AND pro life.

cathych
07-19-2007, 09:05 PM
Allah is the arabic translation for God.

renaissanceman
07-22-2007, 06:51 PM
Allah is the arabic translation for God.

OK, no offense met but so what.

The Jehovas Witnesses insist on calling him Jehovah too?

The Quran certainly isnt a translation of the Holy Bible.

Allah is the word the Muslims use for God but he isnt the same as the Judeo- Christian God.

cathych
07-22-2007, 08:06 PM
yes, He is the same God. Ask any Muslim.

renaissanceman
07-22-2007, 09:12 PM
yes, He is the same God. Ask any Muslim.

I am sorry, but just because a Muslim sez so doesnt mean I believe it. THEY deny the deity of Christ. END OF STORY.

cathych
07-22-2007, 10:45 PM
I am not a Muslim, but you are really wrong on this. Please read this site: http://www.islam-101.org/ Muslims strongly believe in Jesus.

janelle
07-22-2007, 10:55 PM
I understand they think Jesus was a great prophet but not God. They do believe in God but they say Allah but it is the same God as we worship.

cathych
07-22-2007, 11:06 PM
Like I said before, Allah is the Arabic name for God. We all worship one God.

janelle
07-22-2007, 11:22 PM
Like I said before, Allah is the Arabic name for God. We all worship one God.

ITA

Although from what I understand, different religions have their own view of God. The Christian view is of a benevolent, loving God. A father who watches over us and is concerned with every aspect of our lives.

Muslims think of God as more distant. A sort of dictator God who does not see them as a person to be concerned with. More strict and punishing.

This is just what I learned from a missionary friend who worked with Muslims to teach them about the Christian God. Our way of thinking about God was so foreign to them. They could not imagine a loving God.

YankeeMary
07-23-2007, 06:36 AM
ITA

Although from what I understand, different religions have their own view of God. The Christian view is of a benevolent, loving God. A father who watches over us and is concerned with every aspect of our lives.

Muslims think of God as more distant. A sort of dictator God who does not see them as a person to be concerned with. More strict and punishing.

This is just what I learned from a missionary friend who worked with Muslims to teach them about the Christian God. Our way of thinking about God was so foreign to them. They could not imagine a loving God.

This is quite the opposite from what I was told. Maybe there are different kinds of Muslims, you know like there are differen't types of Christians, Catholics, Baptist etc...My doctor, friend, employer is a Muslim. His God is the same God as mine. The difference is, is that they look at Jesus as a prophet, not any prophet but the one they hold to the highest. They don't think of Jesus as dying on the cross because "if" he is the son of God, they can't imagine God allowing his own son to be tortured and such like he was. Their "Bible" reminds me alot of "our" Bible in the old testiment. They believe God created the Heavens and the earth just as we do. I am not real familiar with the Jewish faith, but I think it is similar in the aspects of Jesus being the son of God.

Abida
07-23-2007, 06:54 AM
When I first read the title, I really thought. "NO." But, it seems to me she doesn't have a traditional view of Christianity. In such a case I do think that the two are compatible.


For her part, Redding said she didn't feel a need to reconcile all the differences between the two faiths but felt that at the most basic level, they are compatible....

She has never believed in original sin. And for years she struggled with the nature of Jesus' divinity....

She found the discipline of praying five times a day — one of the five pillars of Islam that all Muslims are supposed to follow — gave her the deep sense of connection with God that she yearned for....


Arabic Christians and Jews both say Allah.

Here is a website with verse that talks about Maryam (Mary) and her son Isa (Jesus).

http://www.womaninthequran.com

The page also addresses other issues for Women in Islaam.

No, we don't worship Jesus peace and blessings be upon him. We do however believe and love him. We believe in his virgin birth, he performed miracles, his prophethood, that he is the messiah, and that he will come again to defeat evil on judgement day. It's all in the Qur'an.

We do not view God as distant. In fact, we connect with God 5x a day, and we mention Gods name many times each day. For example : opening a door you say "in the name of God." You eat you say the same thing, when you're done you say "thanks be to God." When you praise someone or say something is good you say it is because of God. If something bad happens you ask God for refuge, if something great happens you say God is the greatest. And on and on.

If Muslims thought God was so strict and punishing, why would we have names for him like the beneficient, the merciful, most holy, the guardian, the peace and blessing, ever forgiving, hte ever providing, the just, the kind, the all forgiving, the grateful, preserver, nourisher, the loving, etc. (There are 99 names).

Abida
07-23-2007, 06:54 AM
okayyyyy why did my whollllleeee post end up like that?

freeby4me
07-23-2007, 06:57 AM
okayyyyy why did my whollllleeee post end up like that?

Did you post a site?? It may be a blocked.

Abida
07-23-2007, 06:59 AM
I just posted it again and it was fine. Strange!

renaissanceman
07-23-2007, 01:04 PM
There is only one way to be a Christian and that is to believe Jesus Christ is your saviour, repent of your sins and accept Jesus into your heart.
John 3:16 and 17...

GBU

Totally in agreement! WE as individuals can add NOTHING to the perfect gift of salvation. We also NEED nothing other than a relationship with Jesus and the Bible to live a life WHOLLY pleasing to God.

renaissanceman
07-23-2007, 01:14 PM
I am not a Muslim, but you are really wrong on this. Please read this site: http://www.islam-101.org/ Muslims strongly believe in Jesus.

NOPE, I am NOT wrong. THEY do believe in Jesus but they DONT believe that Jesus is GOD. That fact is Central to the Christian faith.

Belief in Jesus is NOT always sufficient.

I lifted this from http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/notbesaved.html

I DO NOT ATTEST TO EVERYTHING ON THIS SITE. I just read what I needed fro THIS point.

"Many cults claim to believe in Jesus, and this brings up my first point. Is there any condition on salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone? There must be if you believe that there are cults, because by definition cults teach against one or more of the core doctrines of the Faith. You cannot be saved unless you believe in the TRUTH about Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

1 Timothy 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

You cannot be saved and believe in another "Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:4, Gal. 1:6) as do the cults. Virtually every cult denies the doctrine that Jesus Christ is 100% man and 100% God for all eternity. They teach He is a man only, or Spirit only, or that he was an anointed man and is now Spirit, or some other nonsense. Why do orthodox biblical Christian believers consider cult members to be unsaved and in need of having the Gospel preached to them? Because to be saved it matters what you believe ABOUT Jesus Christ and the plan of salvation, and not just that you believe that Jesus existed (eg. Bahai), was a prophet (eg. Muslims), was only Spirit (eg. Gnostics), was only an anointed man (eg. Word-Faith), or anything else. This is one key to this whole topic I will be coming back to.
One more important point we need to consider before we get into biblical examples. I know you are probably saying: "But doesn't the Bible simply say 'Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved - you and your household?' (Acts 16:31) Isn't belief the only criteria there is for salvation?" You are absolutely right. But look at this verse closely, one among many that talk about the terms of salvation, and you will begin to get a better picture about what "belief" in Christ is really all about."


The Muslims BELIEVE in Jesus but they consider him ONLY a prophet to Allah. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Christ is GOD so...

The Muslims and the Christians DO NOT have the same God. See the name CHRISTians.

cathych
07-23-2007, 02:17 PM
I am finding certain ppl here to be very close minded about religion. The reason that there is fighting in much of the world today is because ppl believe that THEIR religion is the only right way. I am done with this thread.

turbob
07-23-2007, 02:21 PM
Once again R Man has decided to come down from his lofty perch to tell us all what to believe. "I am sorry, but just because a Muslim sez so doesnt mean I believe it. THEY deny the deity of Christ. END OF STORY." You say end of story, but you continue to post in this thread, so I guess it is not the end of the story. So," just because a Muslim says it is so, doesn't mean I believe it." That is your right - but that means just because you, a Christian, says something, that doesn't mean I have to believe it. " NOPE, I am NOT wrong." Ar eyou ever????In this case, I personally think this lady is just trying to meld ideas into a belief she is comfortable with, so I think it is alright.
BTW- I looked up the meaning of Renaissance Man - it said a renaissance man is neither an expert nor a specialist. He or she knows just a little about "everything" instead of knowing "everything" about a small part of the entire spectrum of modern knowledge. Your name suits you. Also looked up Innsmouth (at your suggestion). A fictional place for a fantasy believing person - also very suitable.

renaissanceman
07-23-2007, 02:58 PM
Once again R Man has decided to come down from his lofty perch to tell us all what to believe. "I am sorry, but just because a Muslim sez so doesnt mean I believe it. THEY deny the deity of Christ. END OF STORY." You say end of story, but you continue to post in this thread, so I guess it is not the end of the story. So," just because a Muslim says it is so, doesn't mean I believe it." That is your right - but that means just because you, a Christian, says something, that doesn't mean I have to believe it. " NOPE, I am NOT wrong." Ar eyou ever????In this case, I personally think this lady is just trying to meld ideas into a belief she is comfortable with, so I think it is alright.
BTW- I looked up the meaning of Renaissance Man - it said a renaissance man is neither an expert nor a specialist. He or she knows just a little about "everything" instead of knowing "everything" about a small part of the entire spectrum of modern knowledge. Your name suits you. Also looked up Innsmouth (at your suggestion). A fictional place for a fantasy believing person - also very suitable.


I am glad that you agree with my ssesment. I dont claim to be an expert on any one subject but I am quite well read and have some knowledge on MANY subjects. I put my location as Innsmouth because H.P.Lovecraft is my favorite author of all time, NOT because I am living in a fantasy world.

Nice try though.

End of story, doesnt mean I will NEVER sound off on that topic again now does it?

I have said OVER And over I dont care if you agree with me.

This part is for EVERYONE Either religion is something that man has created, in which case its all relative.

OR there really is a God and MAYBE he has spoken to us. I BELIEVE that the Bible is Gods Word for man. There actually is evidence to support my beliefs.

I am not narrow minded, the path to God is narrow. If God is real then every religion CANT be right.

The best we can do is research for ourselves and find out "DO any of the facts in evidence about faith truly hold up under scrutiny?"

turbob
07-23-2007, 03:46 PM
Ok, off to the races! "I BELIEVE that the Bible is Gods Word for man. There actually is evidence to support my beliefs." I support your belief that the bible is God's word - everyone is intitled to their beliefs. Then you ruined your statement saying there is evidence to support that. The bible was written by MAN - I defy you to show me proof from your God DIRECTLY - not some written diatribe penned by man. You can quote scripture until you are blue in the face - it is man's version, not your God's.

"I am not narrow minded, the path to God is narrow. If God is real then every religion CANT be right."

I have to disagree. If your God is real - any religion that believes in a supreme being - ANY supreme being, no matter what you call him - than EVERY religion is right. By only believing your version of religion, you are showing you are EXTREMELY narrow minded.

YankeeMary
07-23-2007, 09:08 PM
NOPE, I am NOT wrong. THEY do believe in Jesus but they DONT believe that Jesus is GOD. That fact is Central to the Christian faith.

Belief in Jesus is NOT always sufficient.

The Muslims BELIEVE in Jesus but they consider him ONLY a prophet to Allah. There is no salvation apart from Christ. Christ is GOD so...



Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is the son of God!!! Christ is NOT God. Christ is the son of God!!! Jesus and Christ are one of the same...Jesus Christ.

Jolie Rouge
07-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Jesus is NOT God. Jesus is the son of God!!! Christ is NOT God. Christ is the son of God!!! Jesus and Christ are one of the same...Jesus Christ.


So you do not believe in the Trinity - that God the Father; Christ the Son; and the Holy Spirit are all One Entity ?

renaissanceman
07-24-2007, 12:25 AM
Ok, off to the races! "I BELIEVE that the Bible is Gods Word for man. There actually is evidence to support my beliefs." I support your belief that the bible is God's word - everyone is intitled to their beliefs. Then you ruined your statement saying there is evidence to support that. The bible was written by MAN - I defy you to show me proof from your God DIRECTLY - not some written diatribe penned by man. You can quote scripture until you are blue in the face - it is man's version, not your God's.

"I am not narrow minded, the path to God is narrow. If God is real then every religion CANT be right."

I have to disagree. If your God is real - any religion that believes in a supreme being - ANY supreme being, no matter what you call him - than EVERY religion is right. By only believing your version of religion, you are showing you are EXTREMELY narrow minded.

I will work from the bottom up, first of course you are free to think whatever you like....BUT there are HUNDREDS of gods out there, but ONLY one of them is real. There ACTUALLY is proof that the Bible and the God of the Bible and Jesus are all REAL.

Just as 1 example many religious texts are also HISTORICAL texts and as such can be verified or falsified to a certain extent.

The book of Mormon for example makes many testable claims about life in the Americas between 600BC and 421AD Like that there was silk, coins, pigs, steel and things like grain and wheat. BUT according to the smithsonian NONE of these things existed in America at the time in question.

SO by the evidence I can say that the Book of Mormon is false.

The Bible on the other hand has been proven to be in line with science by being the ONLY religious book to talk about dinosaurs (job Ch 40-41), it is also consistent with Astronomy, the writers of the bible somehow KNEW that the stars of the heavens couldnt be numbered just like the grains of sand on a beach (Gen 22:17 and Jeremiah 33:22), the bible ALSO realizes that the stars and the moons are ALL distinct and UNIQUE (1 Cor 15:41), the Bible also KNOWS that the Earth is suspended by nothing in space (Job 26:7) The Bible describes the circulation of our atmosphere (Ecclesiastes 1:6), The bible also talks about FLUID DYNAMICS! (Job 28:25) The bible also describes the earth as spherical BEFORE most learned people had come to the same conclusion! (Isaiah 40:22) The book of Isaiah is thought to have been written between 740 and 680Bc while MANY people started to think the Earth MIGHT be spherical after Aristotle wrote "On The Heavens" over 300 years later.

I am not some red neck who was force fed his religion. Instead I am an intellectual who KNEW at the age of 12 that NATURALISTIC causes fell FAR short of explaining all that I saw. After this realization came the knowledge that there must be a creator. I studied, searched and questioned for the next year and came to the KNOWLEDGE that the only religion that SEEMED at all REAL, testable and verifiable was Christianity.

I wont attempt to FORCE anyone to agree with me. I hope that when someone gives you reason to question your preconceived notions you have the honesty to LOOK at the evidence and decide for yourself.

I strongly recommend that you read The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. You can rent it at the library I am sure. Check it out for yourself.

Why should anyone NOT know the truth of something when they can educate themselves and find the truth?

turbob
07-24-2007, 05:01 AM
On this, we agree "Why should anyone NOT know the truth of something when they can educate themselves and find the truth?" But I asked for proof of GOD actually stating the things you claim, and, once again, you start throwing up quotes from the bible and other books, WRITTEN BY MAN. My beef with you is not your actual beliefs, it is your narrow minded views. You think yours is the only true religion, the only true belief, and if we don't all agree with you, we are going to hell. I find that very narrow minded. If your version of religion brings you peace, that's great. I only wish you could relax your out dated ideas and accept that what works for you does NOT work for others, and it might be possible that YOU are wrong. BTW - I am going on vacation - over to Europe to mingle with ALL SORTS of people from other religions - I will be sure to tell them that you said they are all going to hell! Why don't you actually educate yourself like you tell others too - there is a big world out there and you are missing the best part of it. Spar with you when I get back!

renaissanceman
07-24-2007, 05:34 AM
On this, we agree "Why should anyone NOT know the truth of something when they can educate themselves and find the truth?" But I asked for proof of GOD actually stating the things you claim, and, once again, you start throwing up quotes from the bible and other books, WRITTEN BY MAN. My beef with you is not your actual beliefs, it is your narrow minded views. You think yours is the only true religion, the only true belief, and if we don't all agree with you, we are going to hell. I find that very narrow minded. If your version of religion brings you peace, that's great. I only wish you could relax your out dated ideas and accept that what works for you does NOT work for others, and it might be possible that YOU are wrong. BTW - I am going on vacation - over to Europe to mingle with ALL SORTS of people from other religions - I will be sure to tell them that you said they are all going to hell! Why don't you actually educate yourself like you tell others too - there is a big world out there and you are missing the best part of it. Spar with you when I get back!


OK, FIRST most people realize that there are only 2 REAL choices when it comes to the origins of life on earth, either natural causes (darwinism or some other variation) or special creation (intelligent design) Since it is pretty clear that there is NO real evidence for MACRO evolution (evolution has never CREATED anything) I would say that you ALREADY have evidence that there is a God.

If you choose to ignore that, obviously that is your choice. But for your information I have lived in Michigan, New York, Massachusets, Wisconsin, South Carolina, Georgia, and Pennsylvania I have been to several other states and have visited Canada a couiple times. I was also stationed in Saudi Arabia for 6 months. I have been exposed to the wide world and I have experienced all kinds of different religions and cultures.

I already told you I am an intellectual and I did put some thought into my decision to become a born again Christian. This is not something that I stumbled into with little or no thought, this is something that I CONVINCED myself of through time and study.

You can think what you want. Most people if they are honest, KNOW that there is some type of God. What you do with that info is up to you.

renaissanceman
07-24-2007, 05:36 AM
On this, we agree "Why should anyone NOT know the truth of something when they can educate themselves and find the truth?" But I asked for proof of GOD actually stating the things you claim, and, once again, you start throwing up quotes from the bible and other books, WRITTEN BY MAN. My beef with you is not your actual beliefs, it is your narrow minded views. You think yours is the only true religion, the only true belief, and if we don't all agree with you, we are going to hell. I find that very narrow minded. If your version of religion brings you peace, that's great. I only wish you could relax your out dated ideas and accept that what works for you does NOT work for others, and it might be possible that YOU are wrong. BTW - I am going on vacation - over to Europe to mingle with ALL SORTS of people from other religions - I will be sure to tell them that you said they are all going to hell! Why don't you actually educate yourself like you tell others too - there is a big world out there and you are missing the best part of it. Spar with you when I get back!

By the way I think that the fact that the Bible is so ACCURATE in so many ways and shows access to KNOWLEDGE that was uncommon or completely UNAVAILABLE at the time seems to support that it was written by GOD.

OR do you really believe that the original Authors of the Bible were THAT much smarter than the rest of the world?

turbob
07-24-2007, 06:17 AM
"By the way I think that the fact that the Bible is so ACCURATE in so many ways and shows access to KNOWLEDGE that was uncommon or completely UNAVAILABLE at the time seems to support that it was written by GOD."



Oh, please - the bible, like so many other written works of the time, is written so that it can be interpreted any way you like. Like the writings of Nostradamus, it can been explained in such a way to bear out anyones ideas.
It doesn't show knowledge, it shows ideas. I am simply saying that the bible is a book, written by man, so we have NO proof that what is in the bible is actually Gods word. Even if it is, it has mans slant on things. Also, how do you know what knowledge was available at that time? Were you there? Do you think just because they had no internet, they had no access to knowledge? How do you know the bible is accurate? Once again, you, in your arrogence, like to put forth the idea that what you think is fact. What you think is fine, but to expect us to accept it as fact just because YOU think it is, is NOT fine. I believe, honestly, that people like you, that are SO closed minded that they cannot at least accept that others do not believe as they do, are going to have a lot of explaining to do when their time comes.

renaissanceman
07-24-2007, 07:21 AM
"By the way I think that the fact that the Bible is so ACCURATE in so many ways and shows access to KNOWLEDGE that was uncommon or completely UNAVAILABLE at the time seems to support that it was written by GOD."



Oh, please - the bible, like so many other written works of the time, is written so that it can be interpreted any way you like. Like the writings of Nostradamus, it can been explained in such a way to bear out anyones ideas.
It doesn't show knowledge, it shows ideas. I am simply saying that the bible is a book, written by man, so we have NO proof that what is in the bible is actually Gods word. Even if it is, it has mans slant on things. Also, how do you know what knowledge was available at that time? Were you there? Do you think just because they had no internet, they had no access to knowledge? How do you know the bible is accurate? Once again, you, in your arrogence, like to put forth the idea that what you think is fact. What you think is fine, but to expect us to accept it as fact just because YOU think it is, is NOT fine. I believe, honestly, that people like you, that are SO closed minded that they cannot at least accept that others do not believe as they do, are going to have a lot of explaining to do when their time comes.

Historians in general AGREE that the bible has information in it that wasnt generally known, just like the example I gave of the bible describing the earth as round OVER 300 years before most others accepted that possibility.

This is FACT. If you wish to say "there is no God" all evidence to the contrary....WHO exactly is the closed minded one? I FULLY accept that MOST of the world doesntthink like I do, why do you insist on misrepresenting what I think and how I feel? There appears to be some arrogance in your VEHEMENT denials of truth to any of my posts.

Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

This is not a personal attack just a quote from the Bible that MAY fit this situation.

turbob
07-24-2007, 08:19 AM
Historians in general AGREE that the bible has information in it that wasnt generally known, just like the example I gave of the bible describing the earth as round OVER 300 years before most others accepted that possibility.

What historians? Cite examples, and names please. As for the earth being round, these is still today a society of people in Italy that claim the world is flat, and the pictures from space are faked. Silly, I know, but there it is.

As for this - "If you wish to say "there is no God" all evidence to the contrary....WHO exactly is the closed minded one? I FULLY accept that MOST of the world doesnt think like I do, why do you insist on misrepresenting what I think and how I feel? There appears to be some arrogance in your VEHEMENT denials of truth to any of my posts."
Fact #1 - I have never said there is no God - if you actually read what I was saying instead of thinking about what you were going to say, you would know this. I have simply stated that I do not believe in your idea of God. 2.) I have never misrepresented what you have said - that is impossible, as you post it here for all to see, not you telling me things and I mis-posted them. 3.) What you consider my vehement denials of truth are NOT denials of truth - they are me disagreeing with your idea that your way is the ONLY way. The only reason that you do not like my posts is because I ask you to open your closed mind and accept the fact that you MAY not be right. To tell the truth, I admire your strong belief in what you think is right. However, if you truly accept that most of the world does not think as you do, WHY do you insist on ramming your beliefs down everyones throat? My ONLY problem with you and your faith is that you state your faith is the ONLY right one, and that is both narrow minded and arrogant. "Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."" A nice quote - but written by man, and therefore means little - least of all the truth.

YankeeMary
07-24-2007, 06:17 PM
So you do not believe in the Trinity - that God the Father; Christ the Son; and the Holy Spirit are all One Entity ?
I was just saying for the purpose of having people understand who Jesus is etc...Yes I believe in the Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Jolie Rouge
07-24-2007, 08:03 PM
I was just saying for the purpose of having people understand who Jesus is etc...Yes I believe in the Father, Son, Holy Ghost.

Good I was just checking - kinda worried me for a sec.... ;)

renaissanceman
07-25-2007, 12:53 AM
Historians in general AGREE that the bible has information in it that wasnt generally known, just like the example I gave of the bible describing the earth as round OVER 300 years before most others accepted that possibility.

What historians? Cite examples, and names please. As for the earth being round, these is still today a society of people in Italy that claim the world is flat, and the pictures from space are faked. Silly, I know, but there it is.

As for this - "If you wish to say "there is no God" all evidence to the contrary....WHO exactly is the closed minded one? I FULLY accept that MOST of the world doesnt think like I do, why do you insist on misrepresenting what I think and how I feel? There appears to be some arrogance in your VEHEMENT denials of truth to any of my posts."
Fact #1 - I have never said there is no God - if you actually read what I was saying instead of thinking about what you were going to say, you would know this. I have simply stated that I do not believe in your idea of God. 2.) I have never misrepresented what you have said - that is impossible, as you post it here for all to see, not you telling me things and I mis-posted them. 3.) What you consider my vehement denials of truth are NOT denials of truth - they are me disagreeing with your idea that your way is the ONLY way. The only reason that you do not like my posts is because I ask you to open your closed mind and accept the fact that you MAY not be right. To tell the truth, I admire your strong belief in what you think is right. However, if you truly accept that most of the world does not think as you do, WHY do you insist on ramming your beliefs down everyones throat? My ONLY problem with you and your faith is that you state your faith is the ONLY right one, and that is both narrow minded and arrogant. "Psalm 14:1 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."" A nice quote - but written by man, and therefore means little - least of all the truth.

I borrowed the following from http://gnfcw.org/authenticity_of_bible.htm

"III. Other Non-Christian Evidences

A. Non-Christian historians and authors from the first and second centuries attested to the many events which occurred during the life of Jesus and after His ascension.

1.Cornelius Tacitus, born 52-54 AD, a Roman historian stated Pontius Pilate put Jesus to death.

2.Flavius Josephus, born 37 AD., reported the story of Christís crucifixion.

3.Seutonius, another Roman historian, born 120 AD., recorded the persecution of Christians because of their belief in Christ.

4.Plenius Secundas, born 112 AD., and Thallus who was a gentile author wrote in 52 concerning the darkness which covered Palestine during the crucifixion of Jesus.

a.He tried to explain it as an eclipse of the sun, but Julius Africanus, a Christian writer commented on that in 221 AD. by saying this was unreasonable of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the paschal full moon that Christ died.

b.The above shows us that the gospel account of the darkness which fell upon the land during Christís crucifixion was well known.

5.The Jewish Talmud referred to Christís death and crucifixion in many places, though in a negative way.

B.The Bible has become a guide and source for archeological discoveries.

1.In many cases critics, as well as adherents, referred to the Bible account to prove or disprove their points of view in issues related to :

a.The Creation.

b.The Flood

c.Ur of the Chaldees.

d.Josephís life events.

e.The Hebrew captivity in Egypt.

f.The Exodus of the Hebrews from Egypt.

g.The law of Moses.

h.The Biblical account of some ancient races.

i.The altar Joshua built on the Mount of Jerrizzim.

2. William F. Albright, known for his reputation as one of the great archeologists states, "There can be be doubt that archeology has confirmed the substantial historicity of the Old Testament tradition... discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of History."

3.F.F. Bruce, the noted British scholar said, "Where Luke has been suspected of inaccuracy and accuracy has been vindicated by some inscriptional evidence, it may be legitimate to say that archeology has confirmed the New Testament record."

4.Sir William Ramsey, who is regarded by most as one of the greatest archeologists ever to have lived, was taught in the German historical school of the mid-nineteenth century that the book of Acts was a product of the mid-second century AD.

a.He was firmly convinced of the above and set out to prove his belief, but after so many years of discoveries and archeological research, he came to the amazing conclusion that the book of Acts is an authority for the topography, antiquities and ancient sociology of Asia Minor.

b.He also regarded Luke as "historian of the first rank."

c.Sir William presents us with conclusive archeological and historical evidences to support his objective opinion about Luke and the Scripture.

d.Later, Sir William became a firm believer in the accuracy of the Scripture. His findings are not based on speculations, or "it was said." "And God knows better" but on research, archeological excavations and the Biblical records. The results were astonishing! Truly, the genuine Word of God will never fail."

Plus I already suggested that you read the Case For Christ By Lee Strobel it contains SCORES of info on WHY you can believe that the bible IS the word of God.

No other book in history has been translated SO MANY times while staying faithful to the earliest manuscripts. This attests to the SERIOUSNESS that the scholars who participated in translating the Scriptures placed on their work.

When you FULLY BELIEVE that you are working for God by TRANSCRIBING (note I didnt say translating) his word, you tend to take it seriously.

For the Nth time I am not forcing nor am I TRYING to force my beliefs on anyone.

I firmly believe though that anyone who will from a neutral standpoint evaluate the info on Christ and the Holy Bible, CANT help but be convinced by the preponderance of evidences and supports.

Circumstancial evidence and logical deduction is considered good enough to use in a court of law, but MANY people refuse to even CONSIDER such when it comes to God.

In the end I do BELIEVE that Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven and I believe this because I have become convinced by study and research that the bible IS Gods word and that Jesus really did say that No man shall come unto the father but by him.

If that makes me narrow minded, I guess I am. I also am reasonably certain that the earth is round. I have evaluated evidence for other arguments and found it SORELY lacking. I am quite sure that at this point the flat earthers would call me "narrow minded" as well.

Im OK with that.

turbob
07-26-2007, 11:32 AM
For the last time - are you are doing is regurgitating text from books written by man. You say you want to debate, but you don't seem to have an original thought - all you do is recite things other men have written. Now, and I am sure I will be banned for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. you are a closed minded bigot. There are men and women here with all kind of beliefs, and they all accept others - EXCEPT for you! So, go cash your unemployment check, kick your dog, bully your kids, tell your wife what to think, feel and believe. Run, you little brat, and tell the mods on me - it was worth it to post what you really are - an uneducated, slobbering redneck!

renaissanceman
07-26-2007, 11:55 AM
For the last time - are you are doing is regurgitating text from books written by man. You say you want to debate, but you don't seem to have an original thought - all you do is recite things other men have written. Now, and I am sure I will be banned for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. you are a closed minded bigot. There are men and women here with all kind of beliefs, and they all accept others - EXCEPT for you! So, go cash your unemployment check, kick your dog, bully your kids, tell your wife what to think, feel and believe. Run, you little brat, and tell the mods on me - it was worth it to post what you really are - an uneducated, slobbering redneck!

NO, you have shown YOURSELF to be an uneducated, UNREASONABLE person who can do nothing but resort to personal attacks. My wife agrees with me because we base our opinions on the Bible. I wont even dignify most of the other things you have said because they were so OBVIOUSLY hateful and slanderous.

I have given you NUMEROUS logical arguments, you REFUSE to consider them so just who is the narrow minded person here.

I think that anyone who reads these posts would see that this was a pretty good exchange of ideas. EVERY time you had a question, I rose to the challenge, I believe that my ability to actually argue and debate a topic that you thought had little or no REAL support has made you so uncomfortable that you HAD to resort to these 7th grade tactics.

Turbob, I am going to report this ONLY because you KNOW that you have gone WAY over the line, and you did it anyway. What is wrong with you?

Does the fact that YOU might be wrong scare you so much?

renaissanceman
07-26-2007, 11:58 AM
For the last time - are you are doing is regurgitating text from books written by man. You say you want to debate, but you don't seem to have an original thought - all you do is recite things other men have written. Now, and I am sure I will be banned for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. you are a closed minded bigot. There are men and women here with all kind of beliefs, and they all accept others - EXCEPT for you! So, go cash your unemployment check, kick your dog, bully your kids, tell your wife what to think, feel and believe. Run, you little brat, and tell the mods on me - it was worth it to post what you really are - an uneducated, slobbering redneck!

Oh, and by the way I can accept other peoples beliefs and NOT think they are right. I ACCEPT that other people believe differently, but I WILL not say that their beliefs are just as true or valid as mine when the evidence doesnt support that.

DBackFan
07-26-2007, 12:06 PM
You know turbob, he is right in saying that was 7th grade tactics and out of line. I truly thought you were above that. It takes a bigger person to walk away and ignore if you can't say something nice. I have learned the hard way myself.

cathych
07-26-2007, 12:19 PM
Me too. There is no use beating a dead horse as the saying goes.