Cmmon sense about Abortion that ALL should agree on.

[DtroitPunk]

Even if you seperate any religiouos morality from this issue, you still have some undeniable facts.

1. We all have a choice whether to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage or not.

2. If we do decide to, we have more readily available contraceptive choices available in America than anywhere else.

3. If you chose to have unmarried unprotected sex, you show no respect for yourself or your partner. Hasnt anyone heard of STD's and AIDS?

4. If someone chooses to have unwed, unprotected sex and they get pregnant, they have already shown INCREDIBLY poor decision making. Why should they then be allowed to compound bad choices with another bad choice to kill an infant.

I personally just dont understand how ANYONE can justify this type of thinking. I understand that some people will bring up incest and rape etc as a defense of a womans right to Abortion, but come on. How many of the over 1 MILLION abortions each year do we really believe are due to those causes? In 2004-2005 there were 200,780 rapes ATTEMPTED RAPES and general sexual assaults. So lets say GENEROUSLY that 100,000 Women were raped... AND all 100,000 ACTUALLY did get pregnant which is IMPOSSIBLE. Still less than a 10th of all abortions would be being performed due to pregnancy from rape. Probably closer to 3%. Think about it.

[cSoReNSoN]

My body, my choice....

[DtroitPunk]

I understand the words, but you have LOTS of choices. Killing an unwanted baby when you know how to prevent pregnancy should NEVER be a choice.
This is whats wrong with all of America no one wants to own responsibility for their own actions and choices.

[Jolie Rouge]

Follow the money .....

The abortion industry is making money in the BILLIONS ( mostly cash ) ... and yet they are rarely held accountable. We had to move mountain in LA to get health inspections mandated for abortion clinics - the "Pro Choice" Lobbists went all out to block any attempts ... if they are so concerned about womens rights and womens health issues they should have been right on board ... but it is all about the profits. Prior to these passages Health Inspections were required at your vets office, your manicurists and your hairstylists ... but not at a clinic where they are doing invasive surgical procedures on women.

Follow the money ....

[DtroitPunk]

Yup, and as I pointed out in another thread why is it that NOONE is calling for abortion for animals? There are way too many unwanted pets in the world! People like the ASPCA would have a conniption, while many of the same people would go to their deaths screaming Abortion on demand for Women. We care more for the lives of animals in this nation than unwanted babies.

Or what about people who say convicted rapists and murderers shouldnt get the death penalty, but any woman who wants one should be able to get an abortion?

So we cry for the rights of the guilty and KILL the innocent. And people wonder why America is failing. It is a general spiritual and MORAL malaise. I realize that SOME people dont believe in God but everyone should believe in decency, responsibility and accountability.

[Shann]

why is there another thread about abortion? :confused: it's obvious you want everyone to agree on your views and it's just not going to happen. I agree with cSoReNSoN it's my body my choice. I don't want anyone telling me what I should and shouldn't do and I don't see how making another thread is going to change that for me or anyone else. People make mistakes or mistakes happen and for some having a child at that particular time might not be a good idea. Would you rather have a child born into a family that doesn't want it? One that abuses an innocent child that they cannot afford? I know several people who were on birth control or used condoms and became pregnant... neither one of those are 100% effective.

[Katt]

Yup, and as I pointed out in another thread why is it that NOONE is calling for abortion for animals? There are way too many unwanted pets in the world! People like the ASPCA would have a conniption,.

They do perform abortions on animals, just a heads up. The ASPCA certified shelter where I got my dog from, will perform them, and if you adopt, you HAVE to get your dog fixed. If they are pregnant at the time, they are taken care of, then fixed, then sent home with you.

Just a question though, since you preach about prevention of unwanted pregnancy's and that fact that many know how to prevent them; most birth control pills (actually the majority of BC pills), will wait until an egg is inplanted (which is when most pro-life people say life starts) and then cause a spontaneous abortion. Is this okay? Is it not the same thing? Isn't an abortion, and abortion, whether you choose to not use BC and have one, or use BC and it causes it for you?

[Bubblescc]

why is there another thread about abortion? :confused: it's obvious you want everyone to agree on your views and it's just not going to happen. I agree with cSoReNSoN it's my body my choice. I don't want anyone telling me what I should and shouldn't do and I don't see how making another thread is going to change that for me or anyone else. People make mistakes or mistakes happen and for some having a child at that particular time might not be a good idea. Would you rather have a child born into a family that doesn't want it? One that abuses an innocent child that they cannot afford? I know several people who were on birth control or used condoms and became pregnant... neither one of those are 100% effective.

I believe its because mine was closed.......this is the only response to your post Shann the rest is my opinion....

I am not here to argue with anyone, so dont anyone take anything I say other then my opinion.

While there are people that are on BC or use condoms they do realize that those are not 100% effective.

I posted the thread about Dr. Tiller because I find this discusting...giving abortions late term because of a woman not being able to attend a concert etc...I thought most would agree to that.....

The woman chose to sleep with someone, thats the choice she made, she knew she could become pregnant.....of course I am not speaking of a woman raped....

I dont believe that alot of woman would have abortions if they knew exactly what was being done to them and the life inside them. Most woman that are prochoice would not ever sit and look at the photos and read what really happens so its easier to say its my body its my choice.

this part is for Katt, I tried to google info about the abortions on pets and I didnt have any luck, could you please give me a link or where you found the info so I can inform myself of this...I had no idea....thanks in advance, I will continue to research just in case you cant find it...Google is sometimes tricky its all about how you word somethng,lol I pulled up an article from 1996....

[Katt]

It's personal experience Bubbles. I adopted my Lab from a rescue shelter. I got her home, she was scheduled to be fixed in two months. She began getting big...I took her in, they said yes, she's pregnant. I said what about the puppies? They said when you adopt and sign the papers that you agree to have your dog fixed, the puppies are aborted and the dog is fixed. They can't fix them while they are pregnant, so I guess it's just assumed a person will know they are aborted (I had no idea she was pregnant when I adopted her so this was NOT a good suprise for me). I actually bawled lol, felt horrible, but I knew I couldn't afford a bunch of puppies, which is why I was going to have her fixed in the first place.

The only thing I find online is mostly religious and radical sites that compare animal rights and pro-choice stuff. I'm not getting into all that.

I bet if you called a shelter that performed spaying on the pets (like rescue shelters that require you to fix the animals you adopt), and asked them what if the pet was pregnant, they would let you know if they too performed them.

[Bubblescc]

It's personal experience Bubbles. I adopted my Lab from a rescue shelter. I got her home, she was scheduled to be fixed in two months. She began getting big...I took her in, they said yes, she's pregnant. I said what about the puppies? They said when you adopt and sign the papers that you agree to have your dog fixed, the puppies are aborted and the dog is fixed. They can't fix them while they are pregnant, so I guess it's just assumed a person will know they are aborted (I had no idea she was pregnant when I adopted her so this was NOT a good suprise for me). I actually bawled lol, felt horrible, but I knew I couldn't afford a bunch of puppies, which is why I was going to have her fixed in the first place.

The only thing I find online is mostly religious and radical sites that compare animal rights and pro-choice stuff. I'm not getting into all that.

I bet if you called a shelter that performed spaying on the pets (like rescue shelters that require you to fix the animals you adopt), and asked them what if the pet was pregnant, they would let you know if they too performed them.


Sorry Katt I completely misread your post, I thought you were saying you could just bring your pet in whenever it was pregnant and get an abortion,lol
I dont doubt that they would in the instance your referring too...
thanks for the info and sorry about not reading your post completely, it was one of those duh moments...:bangdesk lol

[Willow]

This may sound kind of strange but it's something I was wondering about. Is a fetus not considered a life until it's actually been born and living outside of the mother's womb?

[freeby4me]

Some say Common Sense is shutting the door behind you. Others say Common Sense is allowing someone else to dictate your life for you, to each their own I guess....

[galeane29]

I'm not sure, I saw an episode of LA LAW or one of those type of shows the other day and after 29 weeks its considered a "human" or if they took a breath outside of the womb then died ....strange, I think if it has a heartbeat its a HUMAN.
I am stating fact not just my opinion and I have said it before. ITS NOT YOUR BODY you are killing dammit. Yeah God gave us the freedom of choice and the choice to kill weather it has been born yet or not is a sin , sorry. You wouldnt have a child , raise it and someone MURDER it and say , well they were a burdon anyway so its ok ...would you? The whole opinion of pro choicers make me sick.

The whole world is going to hell in a handbasket, its the modern day Sodom and Gomorrah.



This may sound kind of strange but it's something I was wondering about. Is a fetus not considered a life until it's actually been born and living outside of the mother's womb?

[cpbaby]

I have very definate views on abortion and am pro-choice. One of my views is that once a "fetus" can live outside the mothers body, whether it is outside or not, it is a "life". That "window" is getting earlier and earlier nowdays.

As for someone CHOOSING to sleep with someone and CHOOSING to have irresponsible sex, condoms break, the pill doesnt always work(didnt work THREE times for me), teenagers have the Superman Complex....doesnt mean everyone who has an abortion is a horrible person. I do know a couple of people who use abortion as their birth control of choice, but that is rare. Most people who choose abortion choose it when they feel there is no other option for them for whatever reason. While their reasons may not be a concern in your life, these reasons may loom very large and scarey in theirs.

[Freebeemom]

There is evidence that the baby's heartbeat begins 22 days after conception....

I am not about to take the right away, believe me. I don't like government getting involved in people's personal rights...but how come when a person murders a pregnant woman they are also charged with the death of the unborn fetus? But abortion is not considered murder?

For me, abortion is not a choice. I don't feel personally OK with it, nor would I feel ok about myself after I did it. Just a choice. Period.

[taylyn]

I am not about to take the right away, believe me. I don't like government getting involved in people's personal rights...but how come when a person murders a pregnant woman they are also charged with the death of the unborn fetus? But abortion is not considered murder?



GOOD Question!!! I have always Wondered this .....


Also How Can a Woman have a "partial birth" Abortion at 35 Weeks pregnant, And thats ok ....
But Why can't A Woman who has a Premature Baby murder it after it is Born alive??

Years ago when I found out LATE in a Pregnancy that I was Pregnant...( I was Only 17)
I had the Choice of Abortion ...... I read with horror about these late term abortions - and What is done to these babies that actually could live outside the Womb.... There was a Chance they were actually born alive and then they were left to die....:(

Those Images are Forever in my mind .....and the Reason to this day I KNOW I could Never ever Kill my babies -

[dv8grl]

:troll

Dtroit, when you can get pregnant, then you can have a say in the abortion debate , but until then.. :thefinger:

:dontfeed

[MsLynn]

There is evidence that the baby's heartbeat begins 22 days after conception....

I am not about to take the right away, believe me. I don't like government getting involved in people's personal rights...but how come when a person murders a pregnant woman they are also charged with the death of the unborn fetus? But abortion is not considered murder?

For me, abortion is not a choice. I don't feel personally OK with it, nor would I feel ok about myself after I did it. Just a choice. Period.



they are only charged with 2 counts of murder if she is more than 24 weeks pregnant...(could be a couple weeks earlier)... thats the earliest a baby has been born and survived, is what the statute is based on.

[MsLynn]

3. If you chose to have unmarried unprotected sex, you show no respect for yourself or your partner. Hasnt anyone heard of STD's and AIDS?

4. If someone chooses to have unwed, unprotected sex and they get pregnant, they have already shown INCREDIBLY poor decision making. Why should they then be allowed to compound bad choices with another bad choice to kill an infant.

.

OK NOW I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.... I had unwed sex got pregnant, and i have a BEAUTIFUL 6 year old son to show for it. I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world and if thats INCREDIBLY poor decision making well let me tell you how glad i am i made it and you can go straight to hell....

ya'll wanna sit here and say how wrong it is, and thats fine, i'll support your right to say whatever you want till my dying day. BUT.... when you start harassing and in some cases stalking and terrifying women who want an abortion..YA'LL ARE THE ONES BREAKING THE LAWS.. in one day we arrested over 40 people who were threatening women outside of a drs office, most weren't even there for an abortion. protesters have ended up killing people trying to stop abortion. HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT....

ITS LEGAL... AND THATS THE FACT....ITS NOT A CHOICE I WOULD MAKE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO CONDEMN SOMEONE ELSE FOR MAKING IT..

"JUDGE NOT, LEAST YOU BE JUDGED"

I'll answer to GOD... not to you or anyone else for the decisions I make!!!!

[buttrfli]

:troll

Dtroit, when you can get pregnant, then you can have a say in the abortion debate , but until then.. :thefinger:

:dontfeed

:clapping

I am pro-choice and proud of it.

I personally haven't been in a situation where I have had to make that decision, but I don't look down on anyone or think they are wrong because of the choices they make... its none of my business anyhow.

Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone

[buttrfli]

This is whats wrong with all of America no one wants to own responsibility for their own actions and choices.

But that doesn't mean that only people who are getting an abortion are whats wrong with america.

Lets not forget that another problem is close minded people not being accepting of others, and having a "you are wrong because you don't believe how I do" type attitude is also whats wrong with america.

[freeby4me]

:troll

Dtroit, when you can get pregnant, then you can have a say in the abortion debate , but until then.. :thefinger:

:dontfeed

:rofl: :rock: :clapping :clapping :clapping

[galeane29]

Ok for those of you that are quoting Bible verses here is one for ya

#6 of the Ten Commandments.....
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER!!!!

and my thought for the day and prayer to God is


Please forgive them for they know not what they do.
Jesus said this to his father in heaven as he hang on the cross.

[galeane29]

:rofl: :rock: :clapping :clapping :clapping

So you guys are saying that the fathers of these children have no say?
That is so freaking rediculous and selfish

[freeby4me]

So you guys are saying that the fathers of these children have no say?
That is so freaking rediculous and selfish

I would more say that they have an opinion but they can run off and hide from the child support and never see the child anyways so....it really should be up to the mother.

[buttrfli]

So you guys are saying that the fathers of these children have no say?
That is so freaking rediculous and selfish

I am raising my grand DD who's bio dad has seen her once in 10 years when she was 6 mo old... and didn't pay support until the courts found him last year... how rediculous and selfish is that?

[buttrfli]

Ok for those of you that are quoting Bible verses here is one for ya

#6 of the Ten Commandments.....
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER!!!!



If it were murder, it wouldn't be legal.

[ahippiechic]

I understand the words, but you have LOTS of choices. Killing an unwanted baby when you know how to prevent pregnancy should NEVER be a choice.
This is whats wrong with all of America no one wants to own responsibility for their own actions and choices.

It need never be a choice for YOU. But it should remain a choice for anyone who wants to consider it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please don't try and limit MY choices. You can control what happens to your body, let me control what happens to mine.

[MsLynn]

Ok for those of you that are quoting Bible verses here is one for ya

#6 of the Ten Commandments.....
THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER!!!!

and my thought for the day and prayer to God is


Please forgive them for they know not what they do.
Jesus said this to his father in heaven as he hang on the cross.


you're right it is one of gods laws so....

WHY DON'T WE LET HIM BE THE ONE TO JUDGE US ON IT.. NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE ON EARTH.

[iluvmybaby]

WHY DON'T WE LET HIM BE THE ONE TO JUDGE US ON IT.. NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE ON EARTH.

Amen!

[lisahiser]

So you guys are saying that the fathers of these children have no say?
That is so freaking rediculous and selfish

Maybe you should go after all these "fathers" that run off as soon as the woman tell them that they are pregnant and never take responsibility for taking care of these children, and leave the woman to raise the child or children by themselves. Maybe if these "fathers" were held more accountable for the children they spawn, we wouldn't have to worry about such and issue.




I would more say that they have an opinion but they can run off and hide from the child support and never see the child anyways so....it really should be up to the mother.

ITA
If men had to be pregnant, and raise the child by themselves, this issue would never be here.

[galeane29]

Why does everyone say that we who oppose abortion are "judging"? We too are giving OUR opinion. My opinion is that is is wrong. Those of you that are pro-choice, that is your opinion.

About the "make the fathers take responsablility" issue in this thread, well....how many of those fathers have stayed and taken that child under his wing and bought the shoes and clothes and toys and food and truely done their part? You are labeling ALL men as if they wouldnt do whats right.

Just because the man doesnt carry the child in his womb in my opinion doesnt mean that the woman should have all control, thats rediculous. It does take two to make the baby to begin w/.

[freeby4me]

Why does everyone say that we who oppose abortion are "judging"? We too are giving OUR opinion. My opinion is that is is wrong. Those of you that are pro-choice, that is your opinion.

About the "make the fathers take responsablility" issue in this thread, well....how many of those fathers have stayed and taken that child under his wing and bought the shoes and clothes and toys and food and truely done their part? You are labeling ALL men as if they wouldnt do whats right.

Just because the man doesnt carry the child in his womb in my opinion doesnt mean that the woman should have all control, thats rediculous. It does take two to make the baby to begin w/.

I think we see it that way because people who are anti-abortion are pushing their views on everyone (saying its wrong for ANYONE to have one) where as someone who is pro-choice, we dont want OUR choice taken away. We dont really care if Jane Blow down the street has one or not. Just dont stop me....Hope that helps some.

[earnhardt1]

its murder.. what ever happened to adoption????? isnt that a better choice,,,, u can enjoy the sex but not the baby just wrong

[DtroitPunk]

:troll

Dtroit, when you can get pregnant, then you can have a say in the abortion debate , but until then.. :thefinger:

:dontfeed

I have every right to an opinion in this matter as a human being and furthermore as a FATHER. My wife is in TOTAL agreement with me by the way.

And why is it that a woman can decide to have an Abortion and the Father of that baby has NO say in it? What if the father or his family would take responsibility for the child.

This my body attitude is selfishness pure and simple.

Did you know that a fetus in the womb reacts to external stimulus? And when they introduce foreign objects into the womb the fetus KNOWS and trys to recoil and get away from the invading object?

One of the universal signs of Sentience and intelligence, is reactions to external stimuli and self awareness. If a scientist for NASA found a new organism that displayed the traits that a fetus in the womb does, he/she would protect it at all costs and try to determine its level of intelligence. With a fetus we already KNOW that given time to mature, grow and receive instruction it will be very intelligent indeed.

[DtroitPunk]

OK NOW I HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY.... I had unwed sex got pregnant, and i have a BEAUTIFUL 6 year old son to show for it. I wouldn't trade him for anything in the world and if thats INCREDIBLY poor decision making well let me tell you how glad i am i made it and you can go straight to hell....

ya'll wanna sit here and say how wrong it is, and thats fine, i'll support your right to say whatever you want till my dying day. BUT.... when you start harassing and in some cases stalking and terrifying women who want an abortion..YA'LL ARE THE ONES BREAKING THE LAWS.. in one day we arrested over 40 people who were threatening women outside of a drs office, most weren't even there for an abortion. protesters have ended up killing people trying to stop abortion. HOW IS THAT ANY DIFFERENT....

ITS LEGAL... AND THATS THE FACT....ITS NOT A CHOICE I WOULD MAKE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO CONDEMN SOMEONE ELSE FOR MAKING IT..

"JUDGE NOT, LEAST YOU BE JUDGED"

I'll answer to GOD... not to you or anyone else for the decisions I make!!!!

Ok first off I was speaking in generalities. But I think even you would agree that deciding to have unwed and unprotected sex is ALWAYS a bad idea. You have a son from this union and that is WONDERFUL. This doesnt change the fact that just as easily you could have had AIDS. So how bout you think twice before you start telling people to go to hell?

This is the reason I do tell people the truth as I see it REGARDLESS of the HATE and ABUSE I will receive. Because I am concerned with people making bad choices that they will regret later (if they have any conscience) and possibly going to hell also.

And I NEVER go to protests etc I would never scream at women and call them baby killers. My KNOWLEDGE that abortion is Murder doesnt change the fact that it is currently legal. I know this. Most of what you have said really has no bearing on what I have said.

But know this...If we are Christians WE ARE SUPPOSED TO JUDGE!

Read the judge not lest by the same measure ye be judged in context.

Or see this link for a good reading on judging according to Gods laws and NOT being hypocritical.

http://www.kgov.com/docs/JudgeRightly.html

[DtroitPunk]

:clapping

I am pro-choice and proud of it.

I personally haven't been in a situation where I have had to make that decision, but I don't look down on anyone or think they are wrong because of the choices they make... its none of my business anyhow.

Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast The First Stone

Another person who obviously doesnt read the bible (or if she does doesnt believe that its the literal word of God) trying to use verses to support their views.

First off, you are trying to use the Book of MY faith to show that I am wrong.

Secondly, you take the verse completely out of its original context. When the men were getting ready to stone the prostitute, Jesus took a stick and wrote something on the ground. After that he said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. This AGAIN is an example of Jesus warning people about HYPOCRISY in judgement. MOST of the men who were getting ready to stone her had lain with her or some other woman NOT their wives so they were just as guilty.

The fact of the matter was that under Hebrew law she DESERVED to be stoned to death. But not by those HYPOCRITICAL men. All of them had some sexual immorality in their own lives so none of them would have been right for calling for HER condemnation without asking for their own.

[DtroitPunk]

But that doesn't mean that only people who are getting an abortion are whats wrong with america.

Lets not forget that another problem is close minded people not being accepting of others, and having a "you are wrong because you don't believe how I do" type attitude is also whats wrong with america.

I was using this as an example and I think MOST people understood that. This is the same whether we talk about theives, illegal immigrants or pedophiles. People want to do whatever is CONVENIENT or pleasurable for themselves and want NO consequences.

I certainly dont think women having abortions is the ONLY big problem we are facing as a nation, and its a bit disengeuous for you to act like thats what I was saying.

[DtroitPunk]

So you guys are saying that the fathers of these children have no say?
That is so freaking rediculous and selfish

Thank you. As a MAN and a husband and father it is nice to know that not ALL women resent men so much.

[freeby4me]

Ahh yes. Back again to show us all the EVIL of our ways.....Whatever would we do without someone like you.....Oh thats right, enjoy our lives. Cant have that now can we LOL I know I know :dontfeed

[DtroitPunk]

If it were murder, it wouldn't be legal.

Its only not considered murder by Majority vote of The supreme court who was desperately trying to PLEASE a MINORITY of people led by some very vocal women who mostly happened to be rabid feminists.

[DtroitPunk]

I would more say that they have an opinion but they can run off and hide from the child support and never see the child anyways so....it really should be up to the mother.

This is why people should ONLY sleep with persons whom theytually KNOW preferably in a committed relationship called marriage. How is the man who runs away from a woman who sleeps with every guy around the only one who is the bad guy.

This is a typical man of the world response this is from am EMINEM song called superman

"Not a jealous man, but females lie
But I guess that's just what sluts do, how could it ever be just us two
I'd never love you enough to trust you, we just met and I just f***ed you"

I am not saying that this is right but EVERYBODY knows that MANY men feel and act this way but it doesnt stop women from giving them JUST what they want.

[DtroitPunk]

It need never be a choice for YOU. But it should remain a choice for anyone who wants to consider it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please don't try and limit MY choices. You can control what happens to your body, let me control what happens to mine.

You control what happens to your body by making choices. YOU decide whether you are going to have sex or not. YOU decide whether to use contraception or not. A fetus will be a baby given a chance and that is NOT part of your body!

If anything alive depended on me I would NEVER make a choice that could kill that dependant life form. I am a father of 2 sons, and every choice I make has to consider them.

This is the big lie in the Abortion debate. This isnt about people or MEN trying to tell you what to do with YOUR body. Its people trying to get you to take some responsibility for your CHOICES up to this point.

[DtroitPunk]

you're right it is one of gods laws so....

WHY DON'T WE LET HIM BE THE ONE TO JUDGE US ON IT.. NOT YOU OR ANYONE ELSE ON EARTH.

I dont think anyone is judging the person, but the CHOICE. And even if we do judge the person, it really doesnt matter because in the end when you face your creator on judgement day HOW do you think you can explain KILLING one of his creations by saying that you made the choice because it was your body.

I know that some of you dont believe in God, but please just consider what it might mean if you are wrong.

[buttrfli]

Its only not considered murder by Majority vote of The supreme court who was desperately trying to PLEASE a MINORITY of people led by some very vocal women who mostly happened to be rabid feminists.

So whats your point? Its legal, no one is committing a crime, your wife isn't out having them... its not any of your business what women do with their bodies. You are entitled to your opinion, which I respect, but just because you believe in something doesn't always make it the "right" way. Maybe for you, but not for everyone and its ignorant to think that everyone should agree with everything someone says.

[buttrfli]

I know that some of you dont believe in God, but please just consider what it might mean if you are wrong.

Then thats choice to make, not yours.

[DtroitPunk]

I think we see it that way because people who are anti-abortion are pushing their views on everyone (saying its wrong for ANYONE to have one) where as someone who is pro-choice, we dont want OUR choice taken away. We dont really care if Jane Blow down the street has one or not. Just dont stop me....Hope that helps some.

No it doesnt really help, because for those of us who consider abortion MURDER we are forced to see, hear and deal with the consequences of your opinions every day. We are being forced to deal with your views. Not only do I consider it wrong MY GOD also says it is wrong. How do you think that makes me feel, if I sit back and do nothing and never even voice my opinion for fear of hurting someones feelings? My God expects a certain standard of me, and I must try to live to it.

I wont call people names or abuse them for their choices, I will show you that this is not the conduct of a caring, loving and responsible person. Whether you agree is up to you.

I think we all should have the right to our opinions if we dont mistreat others, The truth is that more often than not when I take stands from the bible I WILL BE the one mistreated.

[buttrfli]

I wont call people names or abuse them for their choices, I will show you that this is not the conduct of a caring, loving and responsible person. Whether you agree is up to you.


You aren't going to call people names, but you said in the same breath that some are un-caring, un-loving and irresponsible ... thats a man for ya :rolleyes:

Anyone know where I put my "Secret Language of Men" dictionary??

[silvermist]

I'm on both fences. I think they're should be a max limit of one free choice in addition with special circumstances but after the first lesson you should have learned from it. So therefor I'd be able to acknowledge one accident in a lifetime. I don't believe in repeat mistakes. Personally with me, I would never have an abortion. Women say free choice but how about the babys choice? It's not the womans body your destroying, its the childs body so I think it's rather ridiculous. The baby obviously chose to live if it's within you. If the father is going to run off after you becoming pregnant, why the hell would you do it with him anyway? That makes no sense to me for that argument. Casual sex=pure stupidity. There are consequences to every action and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that sex=babies.

I also think some people can't care for children, there are enough negligent parents in the world as well as those on medicaid and I don't think we need any more people on it. We really don't need a larger population with all the crowding. So I'm kinda mixed but basically in the end think it's ok once but I am not pro choice for a woman who has repeat abortions.

[freeby4me]

You aren't going to call people names, but you said in the same breath that some are un-caring, un-loving and irresponsible ... thats a man for ya :rolleyes:

Anyone know where I put my "Secret Language of Men" dictionary??

He needs one all of his own :rofl:

[Bahet]

A fetus will be a baby given the right environment and time. My 7yo will be a teenager given the right environment and time. But I'm not going to let him drive my car today based on what he will be someday.

Fathers do not get a say in abortion because they are not the ones carrying the fetus. Even if they say they will take full responsibility for it and allow the mother to sever all parental rights and responsibilities she is still the one who has to carry it for 9 months. That's a much bigger ordeal in many cases than some make it sound. She may not have health insurance or may lose her job if it's something she can't do while pregnant. She may end up on bedrest with no income. She could easily end up with a host of problems such as gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, etc that can affect her health and life. Until the man can have the fetus removed from her body to gestate in his he does not have the right to force her to carry it.

As for responsibility, for some the responsible choice is abortion. Not everyone is ready to become a parent or even go through a pregnancy just because they are physically able to conceive. It is not for me to tell someone else that they need to decide what I want them to. No one wakes up and says "Gee, I think I'll go have an abortion today." It's rarely an easy decision. Those who do weigh all their options and conclude that their best choice is abortion do not need anyone else giving their personal input and opinions. Those who easily choose abortion either have a very good reason for it or are the sort who shouldn't be creating a living being in the 1st place.

[Shann]

This is the reason I do tell people the truth as I see it REGARDLESS of the HATE and ABUSE I will receive. Because I am concerned with people making bad choices that they will regret later (if they have any conscience) and possibly going to hell also.

as I see it, I am a big girl and can make my own choices, I don't need someone preaching at me telling me what is and what is not a good choice. I have to say I am not a fan of how you phrase it. What if someone does not regret their choice? They automatically don't have a conscience? and now there's a huge possibility that they are going to hell? I thought if one asked for forgiveness, God would forgive. It's one thing for us all to have opinions it's another to sit there and force your views on others.

you also say
we are forced to see, hear and deal with the consequences of your opinions every day. what about those of us who are forced to hear and deal w/ all those anit-abortion protesters, some of whom have bombed clinics and killed many innocent people? Or who go around cities driving big trucks w/ abortion pics on the sides of them so all can see... especially little children who don't need to see such images. we get it, you believe abortion is murder and some agree, but then there are those that do not... as it see it, this is a no win situation... everyone has their own opinion that is right for them, and I don't really care for other's opinions to be forced onto me.

[buttrfli]

A fetus will be a baby given the right environment and time. My 7yo will be a teenager given the right environment and time. But I'm not going to let him drive my car today based on what he will be someday.

Fathers do not get a say in abortion because they are not the ones carrying the fetus. Even if they say they will take full responsibility for it and allow the mother to sever all parental rights and responsibilities she is still the one who has to carry it for 9 months. That's a much bigger ordeal in many cases than some make it sound. She may not have health insurance or may lose her job if it's something she can't do while pregnant. She may end up on bedrest with no income. She could easily end up with a host of problems such as gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, etc that can affect her health and life. Until the man can have the fetus removed from her body to gestate in his he does not have the right to force her to carry it.

As for responsibility, for some the responsible choice is abortion. Not everyone is ready to become a parent or even go through a pregnancy just because they are physically able to conceive. It is not for me to tell someone else that they need to decide what I want the to. No one wakes up and says "Gee, I think I'll go have an abortion today." It's rarely an easy decision. Those who do weigh all their options and conclude that their best choice is abortion do not need anyone else giving their personal input and opinions. Those who easily choose abortion either have a very good reason for it or are the sort who shouldn't be creating a living being in the 1st place.

Thats how I would say it, if I didn't get all riled up while typing LOL

Very well put :D

[Bahet]

You aren't going to call people names, but you said in the same breath that some are un-caring, un-loving and irresponsible ... thats a man for ya :rolleyes:

Anyone know where I put my "Secret Language of Men" dictionary??

Sorry, I'm new and still learning my way around. I put it on the end table by the lamp.

[Shann]

A fetus will be a baby given the right environment and time. My 7yo will be a teenager given the right environment and time. But I'm not going to let him drive my car today based on what he will be someday.

Fathers do not get a say in abortion because they are not the ones carrying the fetus. Even if they say they will take full responsibility for it and allow the mother to sever all parental rights and responsibilities she is still the one who has to carry it for 9 months. That's a much bigger ordeal in many cases than some make it sound. She may not have health insurance or may lose her job if it's something she can't do while pregnant. She may end up on bedrest with no income. She could easily end up with a host of problems such as gestational diabetes, preeclampsia, etc that can affect her health and life. Until the man can have the fetus removed from her body to gestate in his he does not have the right to force her to carry it.

As for responsibility, for some the responsible choice is abortion. Not everyone is ready to become a parent or even go through a pregnancy just because they are physically able to conceive. It is not for me to tell someone else that they need to decide what I want them to. No one wakes up and says "Gee, I think I'll go have an abortion today." It's rarely an easy decision. Those who do weigh all their options and conclude that their best choice is abortion do not need anyone else giving their personal input and opinions. Those who easily choose abortion either have a very good reason for it or are the sort who shouldn't be creating a living being in the 1st place.

very well said! ITA :)

[freeby4me]

Thats how I would say it, if I didn't get all riled up while typing LOL

Very well put :D

Agreed. Very well put. Thank you.

[DtroitPunk]

Ahh yes. Back again to show us all the EVIL of our ways.....Whatever would we do without someone like you.....Oh thats right, enjoy our lives. Cant have that now can we LOL I know I know :dontfeed

Ah so you admit that to enjoy your life you have to believe that you can do nothing wrong and be able to kill babies? Thats interesting. And I thought you placed me on ignore?

"Oh sweets? you couldnt ignore me if you tried"

Who remembers that line? Come on I know somebody hear remebers.

And by the way I LOVE my life and I realize that SOME things I might choose to do are wrong.:drunk

[buttrfli]

:drunk

That explains a LOT lol

[DtroitPunk]

A baby isnt a part of your body. I would NEVER tell anyone they couldnt get a tattoo or piercing or run around half naked etc. These are all thigs you can do with your body. I may not agree with some of your choices but they are exactly that your choices.

BUT murder should never be a choice. I know many of you will say its not murder. But here is one definition of Murder-to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

Anyone who has ever seen photos or videos of the carnage that is an abortion should understand that this is inhumane and barbaric.

Its only not murder by legal definition because SOME people dont recognize a fetus as a living being.

Our opinions dont really matter. Mine and yours. TRUTH is universal. 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4 even if you dont like it and want it to be 5.

I think Abortion is Murder, you do not. These are both opinions. ONE is correct no matter if we like it or not. I firmly believe that my opinion is best supported by the facts. Your opinion is supported by a willful desire to be in control.

[earnhardt1]

i know someone who has had 4 abortions and that is her form of bcontrol how is that fair the last one done at 5.5 mths that should be murder

[buttrfli]

A baby isnt a part of your body. I would NEVER tell anyone they couldnt get a tattoo or piercing or run around half naked etc. These are all thigs you can do with your body. I may not agree with some of your choices but they are exactly that your choices.

BUT murder should never be a choice. I know many of you will say its not murder. But here is one definition of Murder-to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.

Anyone who has ever seen photos or videos of the carnage that is an abortion should understand that this is inhumane and barbaric.

Its only not murder by legal definition because SOME people dont recognize a fetus as a living being.

Our opinions dont really matter. Mine and yours. TRUTH is universal. 2+2 ALWAYS equals 4 even if you dont like it and want it to be 5.

I think Abortion is Murder, you do not. These are both opinions. ONE is correct no matter if we like it or not. I firmly believe that my opinion is best supported by the facts. Your opinion is supported by a willful desire to be in control.

Main Entry: 1mur·der
Pronunciation: 'm&r-d&r
Function: noun
Etymology: partly from Middle English murther, from Old English morthor; partly from Middle English murdre, from Anglo-French, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English morthor; akin to Old High German mord murder, Latin mort-, mors death, mori to die, mortuus dead, Greek brotos mortal
1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought


Abortion is legal, therefore its not murder.

[Shann]

i know someone who has had 4 abortions and that is her form of bcontrol how is that fair the last one done at 5.5 mths that should be murder

now that's just sad. even though I'm pro-choice I don't believe in having abortion after abortion b/c you don't know what birth control is, and as far as late term abortion... I don't believe in that either UNLESS the mother or the baby's life is in danger. Of course I would NEVER go up to someone or a public forum and tell them they were in the wrong b/c they were doing something I did not believe in. It's still their body, their choice

[earnhardt1]

now that's just sad. even though I'm pro-choice I don't believe in having abortion after abortion b/c you don't know what birth control is, and as far as late term abortion... I don't believe in that either UNLESS the mother or the baby's life is in danger. Of course I would NEVER go up to someone or a public forum and tell them they were in the wrong b/c they were doing something I did not believe in. It's still their body, their choice

i agree but i consider a 5.5 month baby a living being my son was born at 7 mths and weighed 7 pounds but in pa it is legal upto 5 mths

[Shann]

i agree but i consider a 5.5 month baby a living being my son was born at 7 mths and weighed 7 pounds but in pa it is legal upto 5 mths

if I'm correct a lot of clinics usually won't perform the surgery after a certain time frame (unsure what that is.) I know out here clinics charge more if you are past 12 weeks. Seriously by 5 months you've had plenty of time to figure out if having the baby was the best choice for you... I know I couldn't get an abortion if I was 5.5 months... how far along are babies when you first feel them? After I felt that, it would be over, that baby would be mine. :p :)

[earnhardt1]

ye ai nkow what u mean i coudl never kill something moving a felt mine at 3 mths

[ahippiechic]

A baby isnt a part of your body.

You're right, a baby is not part of your body. But we're not talking about killing babies. Abortion is terminating an embryo, not a baby. A baby is a fetus after birth. An embryo isn't a viable life, it can't live outside your body. Nevertheless, i wouldn't want my opinions forced upon someone else's body, I have NO RIGHT to do that and neither do you. I really don't think I could have an abortion, even tho I was encouraged to when I got pregnant at 16, BUT that's a decision I can only make for me, not someone else.

And of course the father's opinion SHOULD matter, but in the end, it's HER body, her choice.


I expect this thread to end up about like the Starbucks one in the Religious forum, so I'll just bow out now.

[janelle]

For younger people abortion has always been with us and legal. I am 60 and I remember when they announced that abortion was legal on the news. I know for most people we felt like throwing up, it was so foreign to us to be able to terminate a pregnancy that way. Even the woman who was Roe in the case that decided it, is against it now.

BUT when you talk about choice it really is knowing ALL our choices. That is why pro-life people try to set up clinics close to abortion clinics to inform women what is about to happen to them and their baby.

I hate it when people get radical about it on both sides. Yelling at women. Standing with a sign or standing quietly and or saying a rosary outside the clinic should be allowed as long as no one goes onto the property. We are allowed to do it in our city. We have the abortion doctor here that does late term abortion all the time. Recently late term was outlawed here but he still gets away with it since the law says it is allowed for emotional distress. Well that can mean most anything. He is being investigated now on those so called emotional distress cases and underage girls to see just what happened to them.

We should also know this procedure has people who misuse it. Older men making the girls they impregnated get an abortion and she is too vulnerable to prevent it. Or parents taking their daughters to get rid of the baby.

When you say choice then I think women and all people should know what happens during an abortion. Show an abortion on TV. Why not if it is legal and safe? They show every kind of operation on TV, why not an abortion, it is a medical procedure?

As far as judging, we can't judge if the person is going to hell since we do not know her circumstances. I know of a doctor telling a woman she could not get pregnant since the abortions she had left so much scar tissue. The woman was offended and told the doctor she couldn't judge her. The doctor said she wasn't judging her she was telling her why she couldn't get pregnant. We have choices, yes, and we all have to live with the consequences of those choices.

This is REAL choice. Knowing when is the right time to have sex and knowing who the person really is when we have sex with them, knowing what we will do if we become pregnant. Thinking about it before it happens not after. Knowing what can be done to prevent unwanted pregnancies and doing it until we are in a position to have a baby. So many choices but being made by immature people which is sad.

[okie]

Why do we need another abortion thread? Wasn't this debated just last week in another thread?

[Bahet]

To some people eating beef or wearing fur is murder. Believing something doesn't make it reality.

[janelle]

Big difference between animals and people.

[galeane29]

Big difference between animals and people.



HUGE

[Freebeemom]

And of course the father's opinion SHOULD matter, but in the end, it's HER body, her choice.




True, but it takes 2 to tango.

[freeby4me]

A baby isnt a part of your body. I would NEVER tell anyone they couldnt get a tattoo or piercing or run around half naked etc. These are all thigs you can do with your body. I may not agree with some of your choices but they are exactly that your choices.



I find that rather interesting seeings how YOUR God says that isnt allowed either. Sounds to me like YOU are the one reading only certain parts of the bible. Ya know, the parts that serve you and your "purpose" :argh:

[pepperpot]

This is why people should ONLY sleep with persons whom theytually KNOW preferably in a committed relationship called marriage. How is the man who runs away from a woman who sleeps with every guy around the only one who is the bad guy.

This is a typical man of the world response this is from am EMINEM song called superman

"Not a jealous man, but females lie
But I guess that's just what sluts do, how could it ever be just us two
I'd never love you enough to trust you, we just met and I just f***ed you"

I am not saying that this is right but EVERYBODY knows that MANY men feel and act this way but it doesnt stop women from giving them JUST what they want.

I wish you hadn't used this example. It makes me feel that because men lie and connive to get a girl/woman into bed....it's her fault for being 'stupid' and she's a 'slut'.....

Sorry, but being on the receiving end of a lying bastard does not make me a bad person, it makes him the lying bastard.

So as long as a man can 'get over' on a woman...she deserves anything and everything she gets and she's a useless piece of trash that is there for 'his' enjoyment and to dump on and disrespect???? I know you are not in agreement with that...but that is what your quote is implying.

[buttrfli]

I am 60

You are not! :eek:

[lisahiser]

Big difference between animals and people.


HUGE

Well maybe we should ask the animals since they don't have a voice either.
:drama :slapping :potkettle

[pepperpot]

Well maybe we should ask the animals since they don't have a voice either.
:drama :slapping :potkettle

Do you know where we can find Dr. Dolittle? :duck


:goofy

[IthinkNOT!]

I used to think that I was pro-life, because I personally don't think that I could go through with an abortion, but I have come to realize that I am pro-choice, each person should be able to make there individual choice as to weather a child is right for them. An abortion is a very important decision to make, and I would think it wouldn't be an easy one, there is alot of thought and feelings that have to go into that. I agree that life is precious. I don't agree with all the publicity about this, I don't want to see the ads on billboards and such. I do agree that anyone who makes the decision should know exactly what is going to happen. Figure, on any other kind of surgery your doctor tells you what is going to happen and the risks involved. Abortion should be no different, it is a medical procedure, it is happening to your body, you should know what is going to happen. But it shouldn't be a scare tactic or a judgement. It should be matter of fact, like when the dentist tells you that he is going to pull your teeth. And I don't think people should be able to stand outside the clinics passing judgement on the ones that do make the decision. You don't know what circumstances brought the person to that decision. You haven't walked in there shoes and know whats in there heart. I also agree that abortion should not be used as birth control. It seems it would be much simpler and safer to use some form of birth control, but again, I haven't walked in there shoes and don't know what led them to it.


just my thoughts....

[sea-shell]

If everyone is so pro-choice and wants to be able to make their own decision about their body.

What about the baby - their decision will be made for them.

And - why not put the baby up for adoption.

[freeby4me]

If everyone is so pro-choice and wants to be able to make their own decision about their body.

What about the baby - their decision will be made for them.

And - why not put the baby up for adoption.

Anyone who is under 18 has their decision made for them. Why should this be any different??

As far as adoption, Why should we put the child up for adoption?? Everyday we hear of horror stories of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of children who are up for adoption that have no parents. They dont have anyone care for them. Or worse, they are horribly abused.

[IthinkNOT!]

Anyone who is under 18 has their decision made for them. Why should this be any different??

.


Thats what I was thinking....

[pepperpot]

Anyone who is under 18 has their decision made for them. Why should this be any different??

As far as adoption, Why should we put the child up for adoption?? Everyday we hear of horror stories of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of children who are up for adoption that have no parents. They dont have anyone care for them. Or worse, they are horribly abused.

**edited by request**.

Personally, my children are worth more to me than my house. So I guess you would not move somewhere else for the sake of your child's health....say Arizona for example if he needed to live in that type of climate. So, you wouldn't sell your house to pay for medical bills for your child.....It seems that this is along the same line of thought.

Children may alter your life, but they won't 'destroy' it.

So let's sterilize our children under the age of 18 (we make decisions for them) that way I will not have to raise any bastard kids they may have and I won't be called 'Grandma'.......

BTW Children can recover from abuse, but they can't recover from an abortion....

:evil: Just playing devil's advocate, not necessarily my opinions.....

[sea-shell]

I guess there is an easy solution - if ya don't want to get pregnant - STOP HAVING SEX :covereyes

[freeby4me]

Personally, my children are worth more to me than my house. So I guess you would not move somewhere else for the sake of your child's health....say Arizona for example if he needed to live in that type of climate. So, you wouldn't sell your house to pay for medical bills for your child.....It seems that this is along the same line of thought.

Children may alter your life, but they won't 'destroy' it.

So let's sterilize our children under the age of 18 (we make decisions for them) that way I will not have to raise any bastard kids they may have and I won't be called 'Grandma'.......

BTW Children can recover from abuse, but they can't recover from an abortion....

:evil: Just playing devil's advocate, not necessarily my opinions.....


My Son that I HAVE is worth more to me. Something thats the size of a microscopic organism is not going to alter my entire life. As far as "destroying" my life, yea someone whos not IN my life might see that as a bit extreme but ME PERSONALLY I SEE IT AS DESTROYING.

As far as just "Not having sex" well thats about as ASSININE as someone can get saying that. GIVE ME A FREAKING BREAK. Say something that actually makes sense if you're going to use it as an argument.

No one who is in a healthy adult relationship is going to just "stop having sex" GET REAL.

[sea-shell]

Your the one that said HAVING A CHILD WOULD DESTROY YOUR LIFE. If that is truly how you feel - then make sure it doesn't happen.

[freeby4me]

Your the one that said HAVING A CHILD WOULD DESTROY YOUR LIFE. If that is truly how you feel - then make sure it doesn't happen.

I will. By taking birth control and using condoms and by having the option of abortion. Its called doing the responsible thing, ya know....PLANNING ahead. Doing the right thing. Saying oh look hunny im preggers, I guess God will make everything OK is not exactly responsible..it personally sounds downright STUPID. Thats not something that im OK doing.

I have a question for those who are anti-abortion. Who is going to be paying for all these unwanted children?? Where are all these people who want to adopt going to come from??

[sea-shell]

Sorry - I don't see abortion as a part of birth control :evil:

[pepperpot]

I have a question for those who are anti-abortion. Who is going to be paying for all these unwanted children?? Where are all these people who want to adopt going to come from??

There are plenty here right now. They're just adopting from other countries right now because of the 'infant' shortage.

[freeby4me]

Sorry - I don't see abortion as a part of birth control :evil:

Thats fine. I understand some people couldnt do that. I only have a problem when someone says "I would never do that and I dont think ANYONE should" then I have a problem.....

With my story I am saying SEE this is why I need that option. Someome is out there right now with my exact story and they're going to choose a different option! THATS FINE! Good for them!! Im just saying that its not OK for me and I dont need someone taking MY option away.

[sea-shell]

This is a subject that is very debatable. Obviously not everyone is going to agree.

IMO - I don't see how people can have an abortion - my children are my life.

I got pregnant when I was 35 - and in the middle of a divorce ( the baby was not my husbands ) and already had 2 children.

Was it what i had in mind - Hell no - but the thought of getting rid of him never entered my mind.

I'm glad we live in a country where we do have a choice in the things we do - I don't want to argue with people as this is just my opinion.

[freeby4me]

Hey PepperPot, you have a PM....

[aneisu]

There is one huge element everyone is forgetting when they say just put the child up for adoption... Those nine months the mother has to carry the child and care for the child. There are times when that just isn't the easiest thing to do. I'm adopted - I'm happy my birth mom chose to carry me for nine months and I have always believed she loved me unconditionally to be able to give me up to let me have a better life. On the other hand, my brother's birth mom experimented with drugs before finding out she was pregnant. When she found out she quit using drugs, but the damage was done. He is 20 now with the mental abilities of a nine year old. Because she did stop using and took care of herself he hasn't suffered the physical effects and he is much better off than many children born after being exposed to drugs. If a pregnant woman makes the decision that she isn't prepared to be the perfect incubator for nine months why should the child have a lifetime of suffering? As long as the fetus relies on her as the host to survive it is part of her body and should be her choice. It isn't an easy choice, but it is one between her, the father and her god - not her and you - not her and the government.

On another note - animal abortion typically isn't called that... It is called sterilization. If you know the animal is already pregnant you can have her spayed, they remove the uterus therefore also performing an abortion. There are times you bring your animal in to be spayed, the surgery is started and then they realize the animal is pregnant, but not to the stage of showing yet. Simply, the animal overpopulation problem will not be solved with more animal abortions. It will be solved by people spaying and neutering their animals. There is no need for Fluffy to have kittens or Fifi to have puppies - there are quite enough of those in the world.

[Angelseyes28]

Ok I have read through the all the posts and I have a question. I have read so many posts about how "immature" and "irresponsible" people are that have sex, end up pregnant and choose to have an abortion. That includes people that WERE on birth control and people that DID have their tubes tied or the man got fixed. How are they "irresponsible"? They did everything humanly possible but yet they still ended up pregnant.
Also, what about people that can't get pregnant on their own, go to fertility clinics and end up pregnant with 4, 5 or 6 and choose selective reduction. Why aren't the "pro-life" people bashing all of those parents? It's the same procedure that all of these "irresponsible" women are making.
Just for the record, I'm pro-choice. Always have been, always will be. I'm not about to condemn anyone for their choices..... I'm not walking in their shoes.

Instead of getting so fired up about people having abortions, why not go after the ones that choose to go ahead and have the baby and then bag it up and throw it out with the trash. Go after the ones that give birth, then go on to abuse, starve and torture their child as it grows up. Go after the ones that molest their children, lock them in cages and eventually kill them!!!!!!!!
Those are the ones you should be concentrating on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[janelle]

I think those people who abuse are being concentrated on. We hear of them being arrested and thrown into jail. I also thought abortion was going to take care of these women throwing their babies into the trash but it seems more cases are happening each day. ?????

Science is at the lead on making people take another look at abortion, not religion. They can now go into the womb and see just how developed the fetus is. How it can react to outside stimuli. We see the fetus is so human even at the earliest development. It has all it's fingers and toes.

I hope science can someday transfer the fetus to another woman so that woman can have the baby. My husband and I did try fertility treatments but stopped at the gift program where they implant embryos since they want to do reductions and we are not for that. So many thousands of frozen embryos are going to be destroyed we didn't want to have anything to do with the program. This is why I hope doctors can someday just implant the fetus.

For those couples who use birth control and do everything not to get pregnant but end up pregnant, I personally feel it is something special.
That baby really wants to be born.

Also, if one does a study of who gets abortions I bet a big majority of teens are in the number. I think everyone knows teens should not be having sex but in our sex saturated culture how can we stop them?

We have porn everywhere and sex talk everywhere. Why are we a culture so fixated on sex? I guess it is big money but if we refuse to pay for all the movies, books and such it will decrease and we can get back to a more balanced life where sex is not the center of everything.

Teens will get the chance to be children first and not have to become little adults making adult decisions of life or death for the children the are bringing into the world. That is an adult decision so let them become adults before they need to make such decisions, not encourage them to go out and have fun. Giving them condoms as a sort of pat on the back to go do it. I wouldn't want to be a teen now. I know this will be jumped on since the pandora's box has been opened and we can't get it closed again. Parents have a harder job now than my parents did.

[DBackFan]

Beautiful Janelle. I don't always agree with you but I am right with you on this one.

I am fully aware of the abuse of children after birth...I am a foster parent. No matter what these children "may" have to endure at the hands of their parents I will never agree they should have been aborted. I have 3 beautiful girls right now that I love dearly. I wouldn't have them nor would they ever have the chance to become young women.

These kids came from meth labs, had mothers who prostituted and drug abused, had men molest them etc etc but they still deserved the chance to be born.

I also believe that no matter what protection was used if you become pregnant, it was meant to be. My neice has 2 children, youngest is 8. She NEVER wanted anymore children but to her initial dismay she did become preganant. She has accepted the fact that God must have had other plans and that this indeed a special baby.

I know there will always be those who disagree and for those I say a special prayer also that someday you might see.

[galeane29]

Bring those people on here and have them admit that they beat the crap out of their kids, ignore them and treat them like dirt and say that because they came from their bodies that it is thier choice to treat them like this and yes I'll crawl thier asses. Bring it on!

I am adopted, I thank God and my parents ( both sets ) every day because without them , I would not be here today. I have 3 other siblings that are adopted, 2 are chemical dependant because of their birth mother getting high and drinking while pregnant. My adopted parents were in their 60's and 70's when they adopted us, they had huge loving hearts and wanted their house to be filled w/ children. They wanted to save us from the evil we had already been through. There are people that would in a heartbeat take "unwanted" children, of all ages...I was the oldest, & 7 years old.

I dont care how you put it , or analize it ....there is a huge difference in animals and human life.

[janelle]

I so admire foster and adoptive parents. We did the training to become foster but I just do not feel up to the job. Maybe when my hubby retires and can help me. My BIL and his wife have taken care of so many children and they have four of their own but they always find more room to help others.

Keep up your wonderful work DBackFan and all those who do it. Huggs.

[sadie01]

It need never be a choice for YOU. But it should remain a choice for anyone who wants to consider it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't get one. But please don't try and limit MY choices. You can control what happens to your body, let me control what happens to mine.


AMEN SISTA!!

[earnhardt1]

this is a never ending topic no one wil ever agree and the ppl who think KILLING (yes killing) because thats what it is whan a baby is aborted wobnt care one way or another,,,,, its the ppl who lose abby when they are young or cant have babies that care......lost one at 6mths and was told i could NEVER have more well guess wat my son is 8 now and guess god meant for me to have him

[Lasher]

Ok for those that are pro life, how many of you are willing to adopt a child to stop it from being aborted?

Now just so I clarify, it's a curiosity question, not saying anyone should feel obligated to adopt a child to keep it from being aborted. And I don't feel abortion should be used as birth control. I can't only think of two instances in which they should be preformed, rape, and if the pregnancy would gravly indanger the mother's life, as hard as the choice would be, I think that should be her choice.

[galeane29]

:stork :hug :grouphug me me me , I would love to adopt. My husband thinks we have too many as it is , but if the chance arose that I could adopt, I'd be the 1st in line.
I also lost a baby Yes I said baby not fetus or embryo a BABY when I was just a few months along and it was devistating to me. I would have a dozen more ankle biters If I could

[Lasher]

I forgot to put my answer to my question. I would in a heartbeat, I love kids, but as of the way the laws are, I can't get on the adoption list.

[DtroitPunk]

I find that rather interesting seeings how YOUR God says that isnt allowed either. Sounds to me like YOU are the one reading only certain parts of the bible. Ya know, the parts that serve you and your "purpose" :argh:

Actually that is wrong. In the time that was written in Leviticus piercings and tattoos and scars were used as appeals to Pagan Gods usually after the death of a family member. Its not about the Marking so much as the intent behind it.

ONCE again someone who doesnt know jack about the bible except what they have heard.

I believe that the ENTIRE bible is the preserved word of God and dont ignore ANY of it. But some of it was wriiten to people under the law and some was written for Born again believerss. This can be established by who the author is addressing in the context of the writing.

[freeby4me]

Actually that is wrong. In the time that was written in Leviticus piercings and tattoos and scars were used as appeals to Pagan Gods usually after the death of a family member. Its not about the Marking so much as the intent behind it.ONCE again someone who doesnt know jack about the bible except what they have heard.

I believe that the ENTIRE bible is the preserved word of God and dont ignore ANY of it. But some of it was wriiten to people under the law and some was written for Born again believerss. This can be established by who the author is addressing in the context of the writing.

What sense does that make??? Do you even AT ALL listen or READ what it is you're saying?????? How is anything you say supposed to make sense when you're always saying opposites??

[DtroitPunk]

I wish you hadn't used this example. It makes me feel that because men lie and connive to get a girl/woman into bed....it's her fault for being 'stupid' and she's a 'slut'.....

Sorry, but being on the receiving end of a lying bastard does not make me a bad person, it makes him the lying bastard.

So as long as a man can 'get over' on a woman...she deserves anything and everything she gets and she's a useless piece of trash that is there for 'his' enjoyment and to dump on and disrespect???? I know you are not in agreement with that...but that is what your quote is implying.

I think you dont understand what I mean. A woman could be intelligent educated friendly and BE physically beautiful and attractive, if she makes a habit of sleeping with men EARLY in a relationship a guy knows he isnt special. It doesnt even matter if the sex was awesome, if the guy has no respect for the woman because she doesnt respect herself he will usually stick around while its fun and as soon as crap gets to heavy hes off to the next adventure.

And actually the woman who gives it up readily is a slut just like the guy is a Whoredog.

And lets be honest MOST women throwing it around today dont need to be convinced into anything.

[DtroitPunk]

Anyone who is under 18 has their decision made for them. Why should this be any different??

As far as adoption, Why should we put the child up for adoption?? Everyday we hear of horror stories of the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of children who are up for adoption that have no parents. They dont have anyone care for them. Or worse, they are horribly abused.

THAT is a lie. Here in Indiana Planned Parenthood protects statutory rapists! A girl of 14 can be having a relationship with a 30 year old man and they will help her arrange an abortion at tax payer expense or the "DAD" will give his "girlfriend" the money. The Planned Parenthood people dont give a damn about a womans right or protecting women its all about the money. Why else would they break the law to make sure young girls can have abortions and sex offenders go free?

And yes a kid may have a real tough time in the system, that doesnt mean that they wont grow up to change that system. I had a horrible childhood with no dad and an absent sometimes abusive Mom. Under the circumstances I grew up to be a pretty good dad who puts my kids first.

[Lasher]

http://www.womensmedcenter.com/laws/?ID=4

Parental Consent for Minors
If you are under the age of 18, the State of Indiana's Parental Consent Law requires one parent must provide written consent before the minor obtains an abortion. One of your parents or legally appointed guardian must accompany you to your Pre-Abortion Visit to provide this consent.

[freeby4me]

THAT is a lie. Here in Indiana Planned Parenthood protects statutory rapists! A girl of 14 can be having a relationship with a 30 year old man and they will help her arrange an abortion at tax payer expense or the "DAD" will give his "girlfriend" the money. The Planned Parenthood people dont give a damn about a womans right or protecting women its all about the money. Why else would they break the law to make sure young girls can have abortions and sex offenders go free?

And yes a kid may have a real tough time in the system, that doesnt mean that they wont grow up to change that system. I had a horrible childhood with no dad and an absent sometimes abusive Mom. Under the circumstances I grew up to be a pretty good dad who puts my kids first.

So if I say anyone under 13....would that be better (despite the info Lasher just posted mind you)

[pepperpot]

I think you dont understand what I mean. A woman could be intelligent educated friendly and BE physically beautiful and attractive, if she makes a habit of sleeping with men EARLY in a relationship a guy knows he isnt special. It doesnt even matter if the sex was awesome, if the guy has no respect for the woman because she doesnt respect herself he will usually stick around while its fun and as soon as crap gets to heavy hes off to the next adventure.

And actually the woman who gives it up readily is a slut just like the guy is a Whoredog.

And lets be honest MOST women throwing it around today dont need to be convinced into anything.

Sorry, you are wrong, wrong and wrong.

I guess it's 'ok' for a 'guy' to try and see how far he gets??? And to lie all along the way???? But it's the girl's fault because she's 'trusting'?


as soon as crap gets to heavy hes off to the next adventure.


And this is an acceptable way of thinking???

Sounds like 'boys will be boys' and they can't 'help themselves' *wink, wink*.....well that's unacceptable and a load of crap!


And lets be honest MOST women throwing it around today dont need to be convinced into anything
Perhaps in the places you frequent and the crowd you hang/hung with...but not mine.



if she makes a habit of sleeping with men EARLY in a relationship a guy knows he isnt special

And it's all about making him feel special......regardless how he treats/uses females...:eek:


It appears to me that you have a double standard here....

[DtroitPunk]

What sense does that make??? Do you even AT ALL listen or READ what it is you're saying?????? How is anything you say supposed to make sense when you're always saying opposites??

Explain to me WHAT doesnt make sense. I have actually researched this subject The word TAttoo isnt even in the bible and the ONLY teaching on marking your body is from Leviticus 19:28 "Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD."

If this is taken HYPER-literally AND out of context one might think it was sinful to draw on oneself with a marker. KIDS do this all the time.

I have a couple of tattoos and I wish that I hadnt done them, but there is nothing sinful about it. I didnt get my ears and nose pierced "for the DEAD" I did it because I liked how it looked.

NOW, WHO isnt making sense here.

Many things in life APPEAR contradictory or hard to understand UNTIL you actually take the time to check it out and EDUCATE yourself.

[freeby4me]

I'll pass on being educated by the likes of you, but thanx anyways.....

[DtroitPunk]

Sorry, you are wrong, wrong and wrong.

I guess it's 'ok' for a 'guy' to try and see how far he gets??? And to lie all along the way???? But it's the girl's fault because she's 'trusting'?



And this is an acceptable way of thinking???

Sounds like 'boys will be boys' and they can't 'help themselves' *wink, wink*.....well that's unacceptable and a load of crap!


Perhaps in the places you frequent and the crowd you hang/hung with...but not mine.

It appears to me that you have a double standard here....

You appear to be trying to justify yourself. I NEVER NEVER said this was acceptable and I teach my boys that there is NO SEX before marriage. My 14 year old son had a 16 year old girlfriend that he broke it off with because SHE had been lying to him about her prior experiences. I do not condone sexual immorality in ANYONE.

You have obviously CHOSEN to intentionally misinterpret my words I said that the girl who gives it up is a SLUT just as the guy who takes it is a WHOREDOG or male slut. I never implied at all that It was more or less either sides fault. THEY are BOTH to blame. If daughters were properly taught about men and relationships and respecting themeselves they wouldnt give it up so freely even if a guy said all they wanted to hear (LIED).

My wife is GORGEOUS and was by far the hottest girl in my high school. EVERYONE wanted her, sometimes guys AND girls. She had guys with their own houses and cars after her when she was 15. She NEVER believed whatthese guys had to say. SHe was a virgin when she and I got together. I will be honest we did have relations before marriage.

But we were both VERY careful and VERY smart about it. We didnt do it til we were in a relationship. This wasnt a second date wow you get me hot thing. We really thought it out and KNEW that there was something special between us. According to my religion we were wrong, but neither of us was religious at the time. So maybe this is what had to happen for us to get together? We had PLENTY of opportunities to maek hook ups, but we never took them seriously.

Today people champion mediocrity. I think you should never settle. You should look for someone that is your ideal and that you have such chemistry with that you literally can barely breathe without them. We have been together ALMOST 17 years and known each other for 21.

Today people are just looking for hook ups and a good time and then they wonder why they cant find someone who will love them.

[DtroitPunk]

Ok for those that are pro life, how many of you are willing to adopt a child to stop it from being aborted?

Now just so I clarify, it's a curiosity question, not saying anyone should feel obligated to adopt a child to keep it from being aborted. And I don't feel abortion should be used as birth control. I can't only think of two instances in which they should be preformed, rape, and if the pregnancy would gravly indanger the mother's life, as hard as the choice would be, I think that should be her choice.

My house is big enough for another child, but I dont currently have a secure enough financial picture to adopt. My wife and I are COMPLETELY open to the idea when she finishes school though.

[pepperpot]

You have obviously CHOSEN to intentionally misinterpret my words I said that the girl who gives it up is a SLUT just as the guy who takes it is a WHOREDOG or male slut. I never implied at all that It was more or less either sides fault. THEY are BOTH to blame. If daughters were properly taught about men and relationships and respecting themeselves they wouldnt give it up so freely even if a guy said all they wanted to hear (LIED).



I'm not misinterpreting, you just fail to see how one sided your comments are.....



If daughters were properly taught about men.......

Sounds like men get the gold card for their behavior!

It is we (females) who are at fault because we can be bamboozled by men, *wink* you know how they are *wink*. It is 'sluts/whores' and they are 'whoredogs' (BTW never heard that term) and the major degrading, again, goes upon the female.....'whoredog'.

You seem to mouth the word 'unacceptable' and say you teach your children differently however, I still hear in your comments an 'acceptance' of the 'stereo-typical' male mentality....and the major 'fault' remains on the female....after all, don't they know not to trust what comes out of a male mouth! :yikes


give'em an attaboy!

BTW I do not have to justify myself for anything I have or have not done or anything that I am ashamed of. FYI, I have a clear heart and a clear conscience. I also have sons and daughters....

[Bubblescc]

I'm not misinterpreting, you just fail to see how one sided your comments are.....




Sounds like men get the gold card for their behavior!

It is we (females) who are at fault because we can be bamboozled by men, *wink* you know how they are *wink*. It is 'sluts/whores' and they are 'whoredogs' (BTW never heard that term) and the major degrading, again, goes upon the female.....'whoredog'.

You seem to mouth the word 'unacceptable' and say you teach your children differently however, I still hear in your comments an 'acceptance' of the 'stereo-typical' male mentality....and the major 'fault' remains on the female....after all, don't they know not to trust what comes out of a male mouth! :yikes


give'em an attaboy!

BTW I do not have to justify myself for anything I have or have not done or anything that I am ashamed of. FYI, I have a clear heart and a clear conscience. I also have sons and daughters....

I also do not see what your seeing, he said both parties were responsible. I dont see him accepting anything...He called MEN WHOREDOGS, not woman...
maybe I missed something, but I did not interpret his comments as you did.

looks like lots of people in this thread have a problem with this being a man that started this thread..this is just my opinion though.

[DtroitPunk]

I'm not misinterpreting, you just fail to see how one sided your comments are.....




Sounds like men get the gold card for their behavior!

It is we (females) who are at fault because we can be bamboozled by men, *wink* you know how they are *wink*. It is 'sluts/whores' and they are 'whoredogs' (BTW never heard that term) and the major degrading, again, goes upon the female.....'whoredog'.

You seem to mouth the word 'unacceptable' and say you teach your children differently however, I still hear in your comments an 'acceptance' of the 'stereo-typical' male mentality....and the major 'fault' remains on the female....after all, don't they know not to trust what comes out of a male mouth! :yikes


give'em an attaboy!

BTW I do not have to justify myself for anything I have or have not done or anything that I am ashamed of. FYI, I have a clear heart and a clear conscience. I also have sons and daughters....

MOst of this is not worth a response as you have CHOSEN to misrepresent or misinterpret what I have said. BUT... IF I refuse to accept that the sky is blue, does it change the FACT that the sky is blue? Men MOSTLY are this way wheteher We accept it or not. MY sons and MY own conducts are the only ones that I can influence and Control and believe me I do.

[Bubblescc]

Ok for those that are pro life, how many of you are willing to adopt a child to stop it from being aborted?

Now just so I clarify, it's a curiosity question, not saying anyone should feel obligated to adopt a child to keep it from being aborted. And I don't feel abortion should be used as birth control. I can't only think of two instances in which they should be preformed, rape, and if the pregnancy would gravly indanger the mother's life, as hard as the choice would be, I think that should be her choice.

Yes lasher I would adopt in a heartbeat....

[freeby4me]

MOst of this is not worth a response as you have CHOSEN to misrepresent or misinterpret what I have said. BUT... IF I refuse to accept that the sky is blue, does it change the FACT that the sky is blue? Men MOSTLY are this way wheteher We accept it or not. MY sons and MY own conducts are the only ones that I can influence and Control and believe me I do.

Actually the sky is in fact not blue but then again we're talking science, something you dont believe in right.....

[Bubblescc]

I forgot to put my answer to my question. I would in a heartbeat, I love kids, but as of the way the laws are, I can't get on the adoption list.

Please Lasher do not take this in a bad way. I dont mean it that way at all ok?
Even though I have my beliefs about the lesbian lifestyle, I would prefer a baby had the chance to be loved and raised by you than aborted.

[lisahiser]

and you say that a "baby" or "fetus" is not part of your body...... last I checked it was part of the female body.
We have to feed and carry it, it is a part of us for the 10 months that it is carried.
and if the baby puts its mothers life in danger, thus sucking the life from the mother and then either killing her or almost killing her??
Maybe you would understand if you were stuck in the hospital fighting for you life and your childs life and then finding out that the child you are carrying is killing you....... maybe we should ask my cousin this since it happened to her...... oh wait, no we can't because she died, because her pig headed husband didn't want have an abortion so that she could live. Both she and the baby died.
While she started bleeding really bad, she was around 5 months along she went in the hospital fighting for her life, the doctors told her that the baby was killing her so she told the doctors to abort the "baby" when her husband heard this, he left and went to a lawyer to stop the baby from being aborted. The judge granted "His wish" and she and that baby died.

That is all I have to say......

I really need to stay out of this thread.

[freeby4me]

I have a scientific question for ya....according to you, you dont believe in science so how would you explain this...

100,000 year old human DNA found in tooth

Scientists have recovered DNA from a Neanderthal that lived 100,000 years ago, the oldest human-type DNA so far! The scientists decoded the sequence of 123 DNA “letters” (base-pairs, or bp) and compared it with other known Neanderthal DNA sequences from specimens dated between 29,000 and 42,000 years old.

“The Scladina sequence has revealed that the genetic diversity of Neanderthals has been underestimated,” a team led by Dr Catherine Hanni of Ecole Normale Superieur in Lyon, France, wrote in the journal Current Biology. “Thus, more Neanderthal sequences than the six presently available and longer than 100 bp are needed to fully understand the extent of the past diversity of Neanderthals.”

The findings suggest that genetic diversity was greater in earlier Neanderthal history than in later times, when humans started to arrive in Europe.

Such changes are thought to reflect fluctuations in the population, caused by disease or environmental change, as well as random genetic mutations over time.

“Diversity tells us about how old a population is and its demographic history,” said Dr Robert Foley, an expert in human evolution at the University of Cambridge, UK.

Neanderthals lived between 230,000 and 28,000 years ago in Europe, Central Asia and the Middle East (Neanderthals died out about 29,000 years ago).

They were skilled hunters and well adapted to living during the ice ages; but they started to die out after modern humans (Cro-Magnons) appeared on the scene in Europe.

The reason for their sudden demise is unknown, but various theories have been proposed, including biological, environmental and cultural factors.

The DNA studies conducted so far suggest little, if any, interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans took place.


Now according to everyone I have EVER come across who reads the bible, nobody (humans) existed prior to Adam and Eve...so how would this come to be??

[pepperpot]

MOst of this is not worth a response as you have CHOSEN to misrepresent or misinterpret what I have said. BUT... IF I refuse to accept that the sky is blue, does it change the FACT that the sky is blue? Men MOSTLY are this way wheteher We accept it or not. MY sons and MY own conducts are the only ones that I can influence and Control and believe me I do.

Yes, I agree that men 'mostly' are this way....however, you still see it as the 'woman's' fault (making herself a whore) for being a trusting person.

As it started out, you brought the lyrics into this thread and I said I wish you hadn't. It is glorifying and popularizing bad behavior and the thought that this is what females should 'expect' from men. Sounds a lot like blaming the victim to me.

As I said previously, being on the receiving end of a lying bastard does not make one a bad person, it makes him the lying bastard.

If he makes the first advance....why is she to blame?

[Bubblescc]

Actually the sky is in fact not blue but then again we're talking science, something you dont believe in right.....

are you a child????this is a serious question not trying to be funny...

I am sure he KNOWS the sky only appears to be blue, and believing in the Bible does not mean you cant believe in science as well....there are specific things in science a christian may or may not believe in....

[freeby4me]

Yes, I agree that men 'mostly' are this way....however, you still see it as the 'woman's' fault (making herself a whore) for being a trusting person.

As it started out, you brought the lyrics into this thread and I said I wish you hadn't. It is glorifying and popularizing bad behavior and the thought that this is what females should 'expect' from men. Sounds a lot like blaming the victim to me.

As I said previously, being on the receiving end of a lying bastard does not make one a bad person, it makes him the lying bastard.

If he makes the first advance....why is she to blame?

According to him she should know better, thats why its her fault and nobody will EVER love her. (Thats outta his post)

I understand what you're saying and I agree with ya Pepperpot!

[lisahiser]

I have a scientific question for ya....according to you, you dont believe in science so how would you explain this...

100,000 year old human DNA found in tooth

Scientists have recovered DNA from a Neanderthal that lived 100,000 years ago, the oldest human-type DNA so far! The scientists decoded the sequence of 123 DNA “letters” (base-pairs, or bp) and compared it with other known Neanderthal DNA sequences from specimens dated between 29,000 and 42,000 years old.

“The Scladina sequence has revealed that the genetic diversity of Neanderthals has been underestimated,” a team led by Dr Catherine Hanni of Ecole Normale Superieur in Lyon, France, wrote in the journal Current Biology. “Thus, more Neanderthal sequences than the six presently available and longer than 100 bp are needed to fully understand the extent of the past diversity of Neanderthals.”

The findings suggest that genetic diversity was greater in earlier Neanderthal history than in later times, when humans started to arrive in Europe.

Such changes are thought to reflect fluctuations in the population, caused by disease or environmental change, as well as random genetic mutations over time.

“Diversity tells us about how old a population is and its demographic history,” said Dr Robert Foley, an expert in human evolution at the University of Cambridge, UK.

Neanderthals lived between 230,000 and 28,000 years ago in Europe, Central Asia and the Middle East (Neanderthals died out about 29,000 years ago).

They were skilled hunters and well adapted to living during the ice ages; but they started to die out after modern humans (Cro-Magnons) appeared on the scene in Europe.

The reason for their sudden demise is unknown, but various theories have been proposed, including biological, environmental and cultural factors.

The DNA studies conducted so far suggest little, if any, interbreeding between Neanderthals and modern humans took place.


Now according to everyone I have EVER come across who reads the bible, nobody (humans) existed prior to Adam and Eve...so how would this come to be??



ITA!!!!!

[freeby4me]

are you a child????this is a serious question not trying to be funny...

I am sure he KNOWS the sky only appears to be blue, and believing in the Bible does not mean you cant believe in science as well....there are specific things in science a christian may or may not believe in....

Seriously, NO im not a child. Its pretty FREAKING ANNOYING reading peoples STUPID comments though isnt it....thats what im trying to get across.

[pepperpot]

I also do not see what your seeing, he said both parties were responsible. I dont see him accepting anything...He called MEN WHOREDOGS, not woman...
maybe I missed something, but I did not interpret his comments as you did.

looks like lots of people in this thread have a problem with this being a man that started this thread..this is just my opinion though.

You may not see it but I do.

The term "whoredogs' is still degrading women....'whore'=woman....if the term were i.e. 'bastard' or 'pig'...the term on it's own, does not demean women. "Whoredog" degardes both, "Whore" degrades women.....either term, they're both degrading women.

This has nothing to do with a particular person starting this thread or that it was a man who started this thread. It has to do with the contents of their posts.

[DtroitPunk]

Yes, I agree that men 'mostly' are this way....however, you still see it as the 'woman's' fault (making herself a whore) for being a trusting person.

As it started out, you brought the lyrics into this thread and I said I wish you hadn't. It is glorifying and popularizing bad behavior and the thought that this is what females should 'expect' from men. Sounds a lot like blaming the victim to me.

As I said previously, being on the receiving end of a lying bastard does not make one a bad person, it makes him the lying bastard.

If he makes the first advance....why is she to blame?

I also dont care for eminem and his message I was attempting to illustrate a point. A woman is never a whore for being a trusting person, being too trusting is just Naive. But by having sex outside of marriage ACCORDING to the bible she has played the whore.

And if a woman or girl has sex with someone with no guarantees or commitments, she is as much a victim of her own poor choices as of that sly devilish MAN.

The man AND the WOMAN are to blame. Even if the guy initiates, the girl has the ultimate say. She can say no at anytime.

My wife warned me that some of you would get really upset over the EMINEM posting. BUT ...SHE does see my point.

[Mom2Shaun]

WOW, lisahiser, that's truly shocking! I'm so sorry about your cousin!

OK, I'm new on this board and I've noticed something interesting. There seem to be a few people here who try to DOMINATE the threads. It's amazing how much time they have to devote to getting in the last word. They are devoted to telling people what they should do and what they should think. It's obvious they believe that they have the answers to everything, and anyone else is just wrong. I think they do their causes harm because of this attitude. (Would you want them on your side?) I have to say, it's REALLY ANNOYING!

Live your own life, and leave other people to live theirs. If you don't believe in doing something, then don't do it! Leave the judgements to God. In other words, mind your own business!

I'm going to have to learn to use that "ignore" feature!

[pepperpot]

I also dont care for eminem and his message I was attempting to illustrate a point. A woman is never a whore for being a trusting person, being too trusting is just Naive. But by having sex outside of marriage ACCORDING to the bible she has played the whore.

And if a woman or girl has sex with someone with no guarantees or commitments, she is as much a victim of her own poor choices as of that sly devilish MAN.

The man AND the WOMAN are to blame. Even if the guy initiates, the girl has the ultimate say. She can say no at anytime.

My wife warned me that some of you would get really upset over the EMINEM posting. BUT ...SHE does see my point.

Now if you had said that the guy was totally upfront and she was a willing partner, then yes.............you can label them....but if he is lying and conniving, he is the 'bad guy', not her. There's a difference.

[ahippiechic]

I know I said I was bowing out of this thread, but y'all knew I couldn't stay out when I read this 'If daughters were properly taught about men.......'
That just bothered me. Would it be better if BOYS were properly taught about how to treat women......

[Lasher]

Please Lasher do not take this in a bad way. I dont mean it that way at all ok?
Even though I have my beliefs about the lesbian lifestyle, I would prefer a baby had the chance to be loved and raised by you than aborted.

To address your post:
So would I, I love kids, the one in my avatar is my best friends. It's so cool watching him grow up, he has so many people in his life who love him. His parents are lesbians, but they didn't adopt.


Comment in general:
See I asked the question, cause there are alot of pro life people in the U.S. and an unreal number of children who have no one to care for them, tears me up inside. I mean I understand that not everyone can afford to have another kid in their life, but I'm thinking everyone could get up some of their time to get involved in these kids lives.

I mean, all the time spent fighting for their right to live, could you give up some of that time to make their life worth living?

[MsLynn]

Anyone who is under 18 has their decision made for them.


this isn't necessarily true... in oklahoma when a juvenile becomes pregnant she is considered and emancipated minor and can make the same decisions any adult could.

[Lasher]

What are my rights to abortion in Oklahoma?
If you are under 18 years old and want an abortion, you are required to ask your parent/s or guardian for permission, and tell them. Ask your abortion provider for the latest legal info, or call the National Abortion Federation Hotline at 1-800-772-9100, Monday–Friday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m.; Saturday–Sunday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time).
There is a 24-hour mandatory waiting period in your state before a teen can get an abortion.
Your state does not provide Medicaid coverage for medically necessary abortions. If you need help paying for an abortion, call the National Abortion Federation Hotline at 1-800-772-9100, Monday–Friday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m.; Saturday–Sunday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time) or click here. The hotline can tell you where and how to get financial help for an abortion in the U.S.

http://www.sexetc.org/state/?state_us_id=OK#m

[freeby4me]

are you a child????this is a serious question not trying to be funny...

I am sure he KNOWS the sky only appears to be blue, and believing in the Bible does not mean you cant believe in science as well....there are specific things in science a christian may or may not believe in....

I was walking out the door earlier so I couldnt say everything. I was saying that for two points, 1 being he has used the whole science vs bible thing and 2 he said that for a Fact that the sky was blue. Thats why I said that.

[buttrfli]

What are my rights to abortion in Oklahoma?
If you are under 18 years old and want an abortion, you are required to ask your parent/s or guardian for permission, and tell them. Ask your abortion provider for the latest legal info, or call the National Abortion Federation Hotline at 1-800-772-9100, Monday–Friday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m.; Saturday–Sunday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time).
There is a 24-hour mandatory waiting period in your state before a teen can get an abortion.
Your state does not provide Medicaid coverage for medically necessary abortions. If you need help paying for an abortion, call the National Abortion Federation Hotline at 1-800-772-9100, Monday–Friday, 8 a.m. to 10 p.m.; Saturday–Sunday, 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. (Eastern Standard Time) or click here. The hotline can tell you where and how to get financial help for an abortion in the U.S.

http://www.sexetc.org/state/?state_us_id=OK#m

All a girl has to do is go to court and get emancipated if she has medical proof of her pregnancy. She has to prove that she can care for herself on her own (job or apply or state aid etc).

Also... parental notification is required, but consent is not enforced, but that is currently being challenged at the state capitol.

[DtroitPunk]

According to him she should know better, thats why its her fault and nobody will EVER love her. (Thats outta his post)

I understand what you're saying and I agree with ya Pepperpot!

I am just about done talking with you I never said that IF a woman throws it out there NOONE will ever love her. I was using a generalization, there are LOTS of people out there to whom this applies.

And you think I make dumb comments?

ARe you people afraid to take my words at face value?

It doesnt surprise me when people say that everyone reads the Bible differently when some of you cant even read MODERN english.

[DtroitPunk]

I was walking out the door earlier so I couldnt say everything. I was saying that for two points, 1 being he has used the whole science vs bible thing and 2 he said that for a Fact that the sky was blue. Thats why I said that.

I am not really sure what you mean by science VS the Bible. The bible is supported by science MOST of the time. My problem lies with evolutionary Science.

They have made a crucial error, they started with the ANSWERS. Then as more discoveries were made if they didnt support these PRECONCEIVED answers, they either ignored it entirely or questioned the motives and practices of the researchers.

This has always been a problem in Science that to eliminate the need for religion or God many Scientist adhere rigidly and DOGMATICALLY to a form of naturalism that isnt very far removed from any organized religion.

Just one quick search on neanderthal man pulled up these links

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v1i12f.htm

http://unasked.com/Question5023.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060914001305AAKZU4K

http://home.primus.com.au/bonno/evolution8.htm

MANY scientists question how ANY naturalistic causes are sufficient to explain the ORIGINS of life. And MANY scientists now believe that Neanderthal man and Homo erectus existed SIDE BY SIDE. If this turns out to be true, then neanderthal man cannot be a progenitor of homo erectus and they are 2 DISTINCT species.

Anyone who accepts all they are told UNCRITICALLY, is naive. HIstory, civics and yes even Science being taught in schools is biased and in some cases FALSE.

I dont question that MOST of science is true and serves a purpose, but when anyone says that I came from a single celled organism I can only say PROVE IT. To this day NO one has.

I also found a great snippet of Kirk Cameron the actor from a debate he had with some atheists it actually shows an atheist after, admitting that he didnt know what to believe anymore. Because he had ASSUMED that there were proofs of species to sppecies evolution. This is patently false.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNLvXllvvsA

Now once again I ask who is stupid? Why do you feel the need to call names when someone has a differing opinion from your own.

[Njean31]

i know i have kept posting these same links time after time in debates such as these.........but i've found them to be most in tune with my line of thinking. if nothing else, some of you should check out the slideshows here: starting with this one:http://www.godandscience.org/love/sld001.html

and then more
http://www.godandscience.org/slideshows.html

and then if you feel like reading and comparing what Christian scientists and creationists say about evolution and much much more, check this site out. very informative. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp
be sure to check out the article topic index about half way down the page. they actually support a lot of scientific facts, but obviously dismiss some such as carbon dating, darwinism, etc. one thing i've learned that can not be refuted is if evoultion is the case, there should be a coexisting of certain species but that is not the case according to fossils. it's like all or none and if that's the case, then evolution can not be. there should be lots more in between fossils of species. i don't think i got that point across to well but i know what i'm talking about lol.

[pepperpot]

i know i have kept posting these same links time after time in debates such as these.........but i've found them to be most in tune with my line of thinking. if nothing else, some of you should check out the slideshows here: http://www.godandscience.org/slideshows.html

and then if you feel like reading and comparing what Christian scientists and creationists say about evolution and much much more, check this site out. very informative. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp
be sure to check out the article topic index about half way down the page. they actually support a lot of scientific facts, but obviously dismiss some such as carbon dating, darwinism, etc. one thing i've learned that can not be refuted is if evoultion is the case, there should be a coexisting of certain species but that is not the case according to fossils. it's like all or none and if that's the case, then evolution can not be. there should be lots more in between fossils of species. i don't think i got that point across to well but i know what i'm talking about lol.

You mean there's a 'missing link' or 'catalyst'?

[Njean31]

You mean there's a 'missing link' or 'catalyst'?

not really THE missing link...but many missing links between species forming. if evolution was everything it's claimed to be (i believe in certain aspects of it but not all of it) then there should be alot more fossils of species during the process. shoot, i can't explain it?


here, i found something that explains better what i'm trying to say. intermediate forms, yeah that's what i was trying to say.

How Fossils Overturned Evolution:

Millions of Proofs that Refute Darwinism

Were We exhausted by the first creation? Yet they are dubious about the new creation.
We created man and We know what his own self whispers to him. We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.
(Qur'an, 50:15-16)

The Origin of Species According to the Fossil Record: CREATION

he theory of evolution claims that all the living species on Earth descended, by means of a series of minute changes, from a common ancestor. To state the theory another way, living species are not separated from one another by absolute differences, but exhibit an inner continuity. However, actual observations in nature have indicated that there is no such continuity as claimed. What we see in the living world are different categories of organisms, separated by vast and distinct differences. Robert Carroll, an expert on vertebrate paleontology, admits this in his book Patterns and Processes of Vertebrate Evolution:

Although an almost incomprehensible number of species inhabit Earth today, they do not form a continuous spectrum of barely distinguishable intermediates. Instead, nearly all species can be recognized as belonging to a relatively limited number of clearly distinct major groups...1

Evolution is a process alleged to have taken place in the past, and fossil discoveries are the only scientific source that can tell us about the history of life. Pierre Grassé says this on the subject:

Naturalists must remember that the process of evolution is revealed only through fossil forms. ... Only paleontology can provide them with the evidence of evolution and reveal its course or mechanisms.2

In order for the fossil record to shed light on this subject, we need to compare what the theory of evolution predicts against the actual fossil discoveries.

According to the theory, all living things have descended from various "ancestral" forms. A living species that existed before gradually turned into another species, and every present species emerged in this way. According to the theory, this transition took place slowly over hundreds of millions of years and progressed in stages. That being the case, countless numbers of "intermediate forms" must have emerged and lived over the long process of transition in question. And a few of them must certainly have been fossilized.

For example, half-fish, half-amphibian creatures that still bore fish-like characteristics but which had also acquired certain amphibious features must have existed. And reptile-birds with both reptilian and avian features must have emerged. Since these creatures were in a process of transition, they must have been deformed, deficient and flawed. These theoretical creatures claimed to have existed in the distant past are known as "intermediate forms."

If any such living species really did exist, then they should number, in the millions, or even billions. Abundant traces of them should be found in the fossil record, because the number of intermediate forms should be even greater than the number of animal species known today. The geologic strata should be full of the remains of fossilized intermediate forms. Darwin himself admitted this. As he wrote in his book, The Origin of Species:

If my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking most closely all of the species of the same group together must assuredly have existed... Consequently evidence of their former existence could be found only amongst fossil remains.3

Yet Darwin was aware that no intermediate forms had yet been found, and regarded this as a major dilemma facing his theory. In the chapter "Difficulties on Theory," he wrote:

... Why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?… But, as by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth?… Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps, is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory.4

In the face of this difficulty, the only explanation Darwin could offer was that the fossil records of his time were insufficient. He claimed that later, when the fossil records had been examined in detail, the missing intermediate forms would definitely be found.


The Sufficiency of the Fossil Record

In the face of the lack of intermediate forms, Darwin claimed, 140 years ago, that they were not available then but new research would definitely unearth them. But has it? To put the question another way, after looking at the results of all the fossil research carried out to date, should we accept that intermediate forms never actually existed—or should we await the results of still further excavations?



A bony fossil fish dating back some 210 million years.
A fossil frog, approximately 53-33.7 million years old.



A fossil spider, some 355 to 295 million years old.
A trionyx (tortoise) fossil, approximately 300 million years old.



An echinoderm (starfish) fossil dating back some 135 million years.
A fossil crab approximately 55 to 35 million years old.

The answer to that question of course depends on the wealth of the fossil record we already have available. Looking at the paleontological data, we see that the fossil records are extraordinarily rich, with literally billions of fossil specimens obtained from different regions of the world.5 From examining these fossils, experts have identified some 250,000 different species, many of which bear an extraordinarily close resemblance to the 1.5 million species living today.6 (Of the 1.5 million species alive today, fully 1 million are insects.) Yet among these countless fossil specimens, no supposed intermediate form has ever been found. It seems impossible for the intermediate forms, that have not been discovered despite the rich fossil records, to be unearthed in new excavations.

T. Neville George, the Glasgow University professor of paleontology, admitted as much many years ago:

There is no need to apologize any longer for the poverty of the fossil record. In some ways it has become almost unmanageably rich, and discovery is outpacing integration … The fossil record nevertheless continues to be composed mainly of gaps.7


All living things on Earth came into existence suddenly with all their complex and superior features. In other words, they were created. Absolutely no scientific evidence suggests that living things are descended from one another, as evolutionists maintain.

Niles Eldredge, a well-known paleontologist and director of the American Museum of Natural History, states that Darwin's claim to the effect that "the fossil record is deficient, which is why we cannot find any intermediate forms" is invalid:

The record jumps, and all the evidence shows that the record is real: The gaps we see [in the fossil record] reflect real events in life's history – not the artifact of a poor fossil record.8

In his 1991 book, Beyond Natural Selection, Robert Wesson says that the gaps in the fossil record are real and phenomenal:

The gaps in the record are real, however. The absence of any record of any important branching is quite phenomenal. Species are usually static, or nearly so, for long periods, ... genera never show evolution into new species or genera but replacement of one by another, and change is more or less abrupt.9

The argument put forward 140 years ago that "no intermediate forms have been found yet, but they will be in the future" is no longer tenable today. The fossil record is sufficiently rich to account for the origin of life, and it reveals a concrete picture: Different species all emerged independently of one another, suddenly, and with all their different structures. No imaginary evolutionary "intermediate forms" existed among them.

[pepperpot]

not really THE missing link...but many missing links between species forming. if evolution was everything it's claimed to be (i believe in certain aspects of it but not all of it) then there should be alot more fossils of species during the process. shoot, i can't explain it?

No, you did....there's huge 'steps' missing in the 'order' of things.......what caused these 'changes' and brought them up to the 'next level'?....

[Njean31]

here's the rest of it:

Facts Revealed by the Fossil Record

What is the origin of the "evolution-paleontology" relationship that has been installed in society's subconscious? Why is it that when the fossil record is mentioned, most people assume that there's a definite, positive link between this record and Darwin's theory? The answers are set out in an article in the magazine Science:

A large number of well-trained scientists outside of evolutionary biology and paleontology have unfortunately gotten the idea that the fossil record is far more Darwinian than it is. This probably comes from the oversimplification inevitable in secondary sources: low-level textbooks, semipopular articles, and so on. Also, there is probably some wishful thinking involved. In the years after Darwin, his advocates hoped to find predictable progressions. In general these have not been found yet the optimism has died hard, and some pure fantasy has crept into textbooks.10


A 24-million-year-old caterpillar fossil embedded in amber is proof that caterpillars have always existed in exactly the same form—and never underwent evolution.

A cicada nymph, 50 to 45 million years old.

N. Eldredge and Ian Tattershall make the following important comment on that matter:

That individual kinds of fossils remain recognizably the same throughout the length of their occurrence in the fossil record had been known to paleontologists long before Darwin published his Origin. Darwin himself, ... prophesied that future generations of paleontologists would fill in these gaps by diligent search ... One hundred and twenty years of paleontological research later, it has become abundantly clear that the fossil record will not confirm this part of Darwin's predictions. Nor is the problem a miserably poor record. The fossil record simply shows that this prediction is wrong.

The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperor's new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin's predicted pattern, simply looked the other way.11

The American paleontologist S. M. Stanley describes how this fact, revealed by the fossil record, is ignored by the Darwinist dogma that dominates the scientific world, and how others are also encouraged to ignore it:

The known fossil record is not, and never has been, in accord with gradualism. What is remarkable is that, through a variety of historical circumstances, even the history of opposition has been obscured. ... "The majority of paleontologists felt their evidence simply contradicted Darwin's stress on minute, slow, and cumulative changes leading to species transformation." ... their story has been suppressed.12

[Njean31]

this part is basically the part i'm fixated on. they've never been able to explain this.

According to the theory, all living things have descended from various "ancestral" forms. A living species that existed before gradually turned into another species, and every present species emerged in this way. According to the theory, this transition took place slowly over hundreds of millions of years and progressed in stages. That being the case, countless numbers of "intermediate forms" must have emerged and lived over the long process of transition in question. And a few of them must certainly have been fossilized.

[DtroitPunk]

Richard Dawkins who has been referred to as Darwins Bulldog has made several Bold and interesting statements.

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
-- Richard Dawkins, in Lanny Swerdlow, "My Sort Interview with Richard Dawkins" (Portland, Oregon, 1996)

It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Richard Dawkins, quoted from Josh Gilder, a creationist, in his critical review, "PBS's 'Evolution' series is propaganda, not science" (September, 2001)

HMM, so much for tolerance and diversity. But I wonder how he would explain this?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EVOLUTION WATCH
'Who's Who' list challenging Darwin grows
100 more of the world's top scientists express skepticism of theory

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 11, 2007
10:28 p.m. Eastern



© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com


The list truly is a "Who's Who" of prominent scientists in the world today, and now another 100 ranking leaders have added their signatures to a challenge to Darwin's theory of evolution.

It's for those who have reached the epitome of their fields, but still are questioning the validity of the Darwinian philosophy and want to put their concerns in writing.

The names include top scientists as MIT, UCLA, Ohio State, University of Washington, University of Pennsylvania, University of Georgia, Harvard, the College of Judea and Samaria, Johns Hopkins, Texas A&M, Duke, University of Peruglia in Italy, the British Museum and others.

"Darwinism is a trivial idea that has been elevated to the status of the scientific theory that governs modern biology," said Michael Egnor, a professor of neurosurgery and pediatrics at State University of New York, Stony Brook, and an award-winning brain surgeon who was picked as one of New York's top doctors by "New York Magazine."

The list includes representatives from the studies of chemistry, biology, dendrology, genetics, molecular biology, organic synthesis, quantum chemistry, bacteriology, astrophysics, mathematics, geriatrics, entomology, economics, biochemistry, physics, electrochemistry, nuclear engineering and is available at www.dissentfromdarwin.org. It's maintained by the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.

The list represents the most educated people in the world from all branches of science with one thing on common – agreement with the following statement: "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

"We know intuitively that Darwinism can accomplish some things but not others," said Egnor, who has signed the statement. "The question is what is that boundary? Does the information content in living things exceed that boundary? Darwinists have never faced those questions. They've never asked scientifically, can random mutation and natural selection generate the information content in living things."

John West, associate director of the Center for Science & Culture, said more scientists than ever before are "standing up and saying that it is time to rethink Darwin's theory of evolution in light of new scientific evidence that shows the theory is inadequate."

"Darwinists are busy making up holidays to turn Charles Darwin into a saint, even as the evidence supporting his theory crumbles and more and more scientific challenges to it emerge," West said.

The list of signatories, now numbering 700, also includes member scientists from National Academies of Science in Russia, Czech Republic, Hungary, India (Hindustan), Nigeria, Poland and the U.S.

Many of the signers are professors or researchers at major universities and international research institutions such as Cambridge University, Moscow State University, Chitose Institute of Science & Technology in Japan, Ben-Gurion University in Israel.

The organization assembling the list said "the public has been assured that all known evidence supports Darwinism and that virtually every scientist in the world believes the theory to be true. Public TV programs, educational policy statements, and science textbooks have asserted that Darwin's theory of evolution fully explains the complexity of living things."

However, the documentation actually reveals that in recent decades, "new scientific evidence from many scientific disciplines such as cosmology, physics, biology, 'artificial intelligence' research, and others have caused scientists to begin questioning Darwinism's central tenet of natural selection and studying the evidence supporting it in greater detail."

"The scientists on this list dispute the first claim and stand as living testimony in contradiction to the second," the website says. The list was launched in 2001.

The list is for scientists who have a Ph.D in engineering, mathematics, computer science, biology, chemistry or one of the other natural sciences who agree with the statement on Darwin, officials said.

There's a separate location called www.DoctorsDoubtingDarwin.com for medical doctors who have similar concerns.

Members of the Discovery Institute submit articles and analyses for dialogue through seminars, conferences and debates, and they produce reports, articles, books, congressional testimony and films to spread the Institute's ideas.

"The point of view Discovery brings to its work includes a belief in God-given reason and the permanency of human nature; the principles of representative democracy and public service expounded by the American Founders; free market economics domestically and internationally; the social requirement to balance personal liberty with responsibility; the spirit of voluntarism crucial to civil society; the continuing validity of American international leadership; and the potential of science and technology to promote an improved future for individuals, families and communities," the group said.

I guess all these College educated, intelligent people are INSANE!!!! MWAHAHAHA.

For part II please see my next post.

[DtroitPunk]

Phillip Johnson Professor of law and Author of Darwin on Trial.

For scientific materialist the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might therefore more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism First Things November 1997 †

My purpose was to show that what is presented to the public as scientific knowledge about evolutionary mechanisms is mostly philosophical speculation and is not even consistent with the evidence once the naturalistic spectacles are removed. If that leaves us without a known mechanism of biological creation, so be it: it is better to admit ignorance than to have confidence in an explanation that is not true. Reason in the Balance (1995) p.12 †


PLEASE everyone on both sides of this issue read Darwin on Trial, it is a truly impressive read that stays away from religion for the most part and just asks pointed questions about whether we can believe in any variation of Darwinism to explain life on earth.

If you need any evidence though that Naturalistic science can be its own religion read these eyebrow raising comments by Richard Dawkins who has admitted SEVERAL times that Darwin allowed him to ignore God.

I toyed with atheism from the age of about nine, originally because I worked out that, of all the hundreds of religions in the world, it was the sheerest accident that I was brought up Christian. They couldn’t all be right, so maybe none of them was. I later reverted to a kind of pantheism when I realised the shattering complexity and beauty of the living world. Then, around the age of 16, I first understood that Darwinism provides an explanation big enough and elegant enough to replace gods. I have been an atheist ever since. You Ask The Questions Independent February 20 2003


Any creationist lawyer who got me on the stand could instantly win over the jury simply by asking me: 'Has your knowledge of evolution influenced you in the direction of becoming an atheist?' I would have to answer yes. The God Hypothesis (2006) p.68


In closing, I will provide you with one more quote from Dawkins...

Next time somebody tells you something that sounds important, think to yourself, 'Is this the kind of thing that people probably know because of evidence or is it the kind of thing that people only believe because of tradition, authority or revelation?' And next time somebody tells you that something is true, why not say to them, 'What kind of evidence is there for that?' And if they can't give you a good answer, I hope you'll think very carefully before you believe a word they say. The Devil's Chaplain (2003) p.248

Now consider asking that question to your high school science teacher. We are taught and many accept the theory of evolution based on respect for the Authority of the textbook authors and our teachers who all MUST be better educated on these subjects than us...arent they?

[Njean31]

No, you did....there's huge 'steps' missing in the 'order' of things.......what caused these 'changes' and brought them up to the 'next level'?....

but most importantly...where are the fossils of the intermediate species? i could understand certain instances bringing forth "changes" such as drastic climate change, gravitational influences, supervolcano's and the like, massive tectonic plate changes, etc.........blah blah...i should have went to school for this stuff. it's overwhelming.

[pepperpot]

but most importantly...where are the fossils of the intermediate species? i could understand certain instances bringing forth "changes" such as drastic climate change, gravitational influences, supervolcano's and the like, massive tectonic plate changes, etc.........blah blah...i should have went to school for this stuff. it's overwhelming.

Yes, but suppose there was a catalyst that caused 'evolution' to skip a few steps (hence no fossils)...;)

That's where I think the two are integrated...(religion and science)....divine intervention of sorts?

[suprtruckr]

I know I said I was bowing out of this thread, but y'all knew I couldn't stay out when I read this 'If daughters were properly taught about men.......'
That just bothered me. Would it be better if BOYS were properly taught about how to treat women......
i was taught how to treat a woman, my mom taught me well


Richard Dawkins who has been referred to as Darwins Bulldog has made several Bold and interesting statements.

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
-- Richard Dawkins, in Lanny Swerdlow, "My Sort Interview with Richard Dawkins" (Portland, Oregon, 1996)

It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).
-- Richard Dawkins, quoted from Josh Gilder, a creationist, in his critical review, "PBS's 'Evolution' series is propaganda, not science" (September, 2001)

well i think he must've been looking in a mirror when he said that, i'm reasonably well educated no college but high school and school of hard knocks and i disbelieve in evolution. i've seen it said if man evolved from apes why are there still apes

[DtroitPunk]

Yes, but suppose there was a catalyst that caused 'evolution' to skip a few steps (hence no fossils)...;)

That's where I think the two are integrated...(religion and science)....divine intervention of sorts?

Good point, except MOST scientists REFUSE to acknowledge even that God may have caused the big bang and then some things aligned etc. They wont be happy until They have found some mechanism that explains EVERYTHING so they can say...SEE it COULD happen by chance! There is no God!

AND most Darwinists realize that there is no catalyst that can account for the formation of such an organ as the eye. In multiple species no less!

The Canbrian explosion is absolutely MYSTIFYING to most scientists, but makes perfect sense to the religious person.

[ahippiechic]

i was taught how to treat a woman, my mom taught me well


I'm sure you were. I just meant that he said we should teach our daughters about how bad some men can be. I just thought it would be better to also teach our son's how to treat women.

[MsLynn]

I'm sure you were. I just meant that he said we should teach our daughters about how bad some men can be. I just thought it would be better to also teach our son's how to treat women.



AMEN!!!!... i have 3 boys, and I try my best to teach them right

[Lasher]

All a girl has to do is go to court and get emancipated if she has medical proof of her pregnancy. She has to prove that she can care for herself on her own (job or apply or state aid etc).

Also... parental notification is required, but consent is not enforced, but that is currently being challenged at the state capitol.

Right and the parents are supeonaed, because it's their child that is trying to get emcipated, therefore at that point they would know.

I will agree there is a lack of enforcement everywhere, but the laws are in place.

[Lasher]

Comment in general:
See I asked the question, cause there are alot of pro life people in the U.S. and an unreal number of children who have no one to care for them, tears me up inside. I mean I understand that not everyone can afford to have another kid in their life, but I'm thinking everyone could get up some of their time to get involved in these kids lives.

I mean, all the time spent fighting for their right to live, could you give up some of that time to make their life worth living?



If anyone decides they have time for the children they are "fighting to save"

www.bbbsa.org
http://www.makeachildsmile.org/
http://www.bchfamily.org/about/index
http://www.fbchomes.org/
http://www.abchomes.org/
http://www.bellewood.org/
http://www.girlsandboystown.org/home.asp
http://www.stjosephorphanage.org/

[YankeeMary]

This is why people should ONLY sleep with persons whom theytually KNOW preferably in a committed relationship called marriage. How is the man who runs away from a woman who sleeps with every guy around the only one who is the bad guy.

This is a typical man of the world response this is from am EMINEM song called superman

"Not a jealous man, but females lie
But I guess that's just what sluts do, how could it ever be just us two
I'd never love you enough to trust you, we just met and I just f***ed you"

I am not saying that this is right but EVERYBODY knows that MANY men feel and act this way but it doesnt stop women from giving them JUST what they want.

I find this a bit amusing that you listen to Eminem, yet preach Gods word and such...interesting to say the least. I didnt realize Eminem was so close to God now days.

[YankeeMary]

But know this...If we are Christians WE ARE SUPPOSED TO JUDGE!

http://www.kgov.com/docs/JudgeRightly.html

Know this...this is far from the truth as what MY BIBLE states.

[YankeeMary]

I also dont care for eminem and his message I was attempting to illustrate a point. A woman is never a whore for being a trusting person, being too trusting is just Naive. But by having sex outside of marriage ACCORDING to the bible she has played the whore.

And if a woman or girl has sex with someone with no guarantees or commitments, she is as much a victim of her own poor choices as of that sly devilish MAN.

The man AND the WOMAN are to blame. Even if the guy initiates, the girl has the ultimate say. She can say no at anytime.

My wife warned me that some of you would get really upset over the EMINEM posting. BUT ...SHE does see my point.

Her body, her choice.

[suprtruckr]

I'm sure you were. I just meant that he said we should teach our daughters about how bad some men can be. I just thought it would be better to also teach our son's how to treat women.

i know i was stating in general ;)

[freeby4me]

I find this a bit amusing that you listen to Eminem, yet preach Gods word and such...interesting to say the least. I didnt realize Eminem was so close to God now days.

Thats what I was thinking. Most christians faint at the mere mention of Marshall LOL

[janelle]

I got this from the Bob Enyart web site where DP found the judging scriptures. It is a pro-life site. You can go into it to read more.


Talking Points: Abortion for Rape, Incest, and Mother's Life
Abortion for Rape, Incest, and the Life of the Mother
Abortion for Incest

The abortion clinic helps to cover up the crime.
The abortion clinic typically sends the victim back home to her rapist.
The abortion clinic often sends her home with the relative who raped her.
Abortion for incest emboldens a criminal to rape his young relative.
Abortion for incest helps the rapist escape being caught.
Abortion for incest tempts the rapist to repeat his crime.
Incest abortion is not compassionate, but increases a woman's suffering.
Intentionally killing a child is always wrong, even if her father is a criminal.
Loving the woman and the child is right, including by adoption!
Abortion for Rape (see Incest Talking Points above. Also...)

Liberals compassionately care for the rapist, but kill the baby.
We should kill the rapist, and love the baby.
Abortion helps the rapist, by being an alternative to severe deterrence.
Abortion helps the rapist, by having us "deal with" rape rather than prevent it.
Rapists advocate abortion for rape, especially when done quietly.
Abortion doesn't punish the rapist.
We should never kill a child because his father is a criminal.
Abortion makes the would-be date rapist even more reckless.
Abortion emboldens the sick minds of all would-be rapists.
Abortion for rape does not undo the crime.
Abortion for rape further victimizes the woman making a second casualty.
Abortion for the Life of the Mother

The goal is not to kill the child, but to save mom and if possible the baby.
Abortion is always wrong, without exception, and should be abolished.

[YankeeMary]

I got this from the Bob Enyart web site where DP found the judging scriptures. It is a pro-life site. You can go into it to read more.


Talking Points: Abortion for Rape, Incest, and Mother's Life
Abortion for Rape, Incest, and the Life of the Mother
Abortion for Incest

The abortion clinic helps to cover up the crime.
The abortion clinic typically sends the victim back home to her rapist.
The abortion clinic often sends her home with the relative who raped her.
Abortion for incest emboldens a criminal to rape his young relative.
Abortion for incest helps the rapist escape being caught.
Abortion for incest tempts the rapist to repeat his crime.
Incest abortion is not compassionate, but increases a woman's suffering.
Intentionally killing a child is always wrong, even if her father is a criminal.
Loving the woman and the child is right, including by adoption!
Abortion for Rape (see Incest Talking Points above. Also...)

Liberals compassionately care for the rapist, but kill the baby.
We should kill the rapist, and love the baby.
Abortion helps the rapist, by being an alternative to severe deterrence.
Abortion helps the rapist, by having us "deal with" rape rather than prevent it.
Rapists advocate abortion for rape, especially when done quietly.
Abortion doesn't punish the rapist.
We should never kill a child because his father is a criminal.
Abortion makes the would-be date rapist even more reckless.
Abortion emboldens the sick minds of all would-be rapists.
Abortion for rape does not undo the crime.
Abortion for rape further victimizes the woman making a second casualty.
Abortion for the Life of the Mother

The goal is not to kill the child, but to save mom and if possible the baby.
Abortion is always wrong, without exception, and should be abolished.

So abortion shouldn't be preformed for an incest rape, so that the rapest will have to suffer what??? How stupid. If a young girl is raped by her daddy and becomes pregant, make her carry the child, so the father can be punished. HOW??? The young girl is devastated enough but lets make her carry this child for 9 months, only for it to be born with numerous defects due to incest, but no worries, the father will suffer.
How stupid.

[ahippiechic]

That whole site where that came from is stupid.

[janelle]

It is stringent but abortion clinics really do not report pregancy resulting from rapes or incest. These are criminal acts but they are not reported. How sad.

[PrincessArky]

oh my I think my eyes have just crossed trying to read all these posts that I have missed lol

But I really think it is time to agree to disagree on this subject.

For me personally I would never ever (and yeah I have faced that decision in the past) have an abortion BUT I have several friends that have and NO it doesn't change my feelings of love for them. Why???? Because I do not feel it is my place to judge them.

[janelle]

I would never judge those who get an abortion but I would judge the abortion industry as evil. I do not know the hearts of those who get one but I know the act is wrong unless it is in dire need.

I think this is what Jesus was saying when He said judge not. I do not know the hearts of the women involved but the abortion industry is out for money and it is evil.

Abortions should be available for those women who have been raped, incest involved or their lives are at risk. It has been abused so much for birth control, etc. The industry is big money and encourages abortion for any reasons.

[janelle]

So abortion shouldn't be preformed for an incest rape, so that the rapest will have to suffer what??? How stupid. If a young girl is raped by her daddy and becomes pregant, make her carry the child, so the father can be punished. HOW??? The young girl is devastated enough but lets make her carry this child for 9 months, only for it to be born with numerous defects due to incest, but no worries, the father will suffer.
How stupid.

The DNA donor should be throw in jail for rape. The abortion industry aborts the baby and the so called father gets away with it to do it again.

[YankeeMary]

The DNA donor should be throw in jail for rape. The abortion industry aborts the baby and the so called father gets away with it to do it again.

Why is it the responsibility of the abortion clinic to report this? The woman going in to have the abortion could be lying or whatever. Its not their place, it is the girl that was raped or whatever to report it.

[ahippiechic]

Why is it the responsibility of the abortion clinic to report this? The woman going in to have the abortion could be lying or whatever. Its not their place, it is the girl that was raped or whatever to report it.

I agree.

[stresseater]

If you have 14 or 15 year old kid come in for an abortion it is obvious that a crime has taken place. As doctors they are required by law to report the crime of rape/abuse. That's why it is their responsibility. If it isn't then er doctors wouldn't have to report kids with excessive bruising. :monkeys

[ahippiechic]

I was pregnant at 15 and my Dr didn't report anything.

[janelle]

You are not going to get rape victims to say much since they are traumatized, especially young girls. A counselor should be there to interview every girl and woman to see if they are upset and about what.

If a crime has happened then it is the duty of the clinic to report it. Hospitals wouldn't get away not reporting a crime. They would be closed down.

[MsLynn]

If you have 14 or 15 year old kid come in for an abortion it is obvious that a crime has taken place. As doctors they are required by law to report the crime of rape/abuse. That's why it is their responsibility. If it isn't then er doctors wouldn't have to report kids with excessive bruising. :monkeys



in some states the legal age of consent is 15, so at that point you don't even have a statutory rape case.

[cpbaby]

They do perform abortions on animals, just a heads up. The ASPCA certified shelter where I got my dog from, will perform them, and if you adopt, you HAVE to get your dog fixed. If they are pregnant at the time, they are taken care of, then fixed, then sent home with you.

Just a question though, since you preach about prevention of unwanted pregnancy's and that fact that many know how to prevent them; most birth control pills (actually the majority of BC pills), will wait until an egg is inplanted (which is when most pro-life people say life starts) and then cause a spontaneous abortion. Is this okay? Is it not the same thing? Isn't an abortion, and abortion, whether you choose to not use BC and have one, or use BC and it causes it for you?


I was under the impression that BC pills, taken regularly, stop ovulation, which will cause NO EGG to be present to ever get fertilized, but the MORNING AFTER PILL will either stop implantation or cause a spontaneous abortion. Am I wrong?

[lisahiser]

I was under the impression that BC pills, taken regularly, stop ovulation, which will cause NO EGG to be present to ever get fertilized, but the MORNING AFTER PILL will either stop implantation or cause a spontaneous abortion. Am I wrong?

LOL if the BC pills actually stopped ovulation, then my youngest son would be born. that is why they are not 100% effective. and yes I took them every morning at 6:30 a.m. when I got up with my coffee before work. Sad thing is that I got on BC right after I had my oldest son. (which I was on the shot for 1 1/2 years with my oldest son.......explain that one-lol not 100% effective either) Needless to say there is no effective birth control but not to have sex at all.
OH and get this, I got my tubes cut and burned, right after I had my youngest son, - lol and guess what happened to me 8 months later....... Pegnant! yuppers! Talk about one mad Mama! But 2 weeks later I mis-carried. Guess what they DR. told me........ "We never said it was 100%" They wanted to put me back on the pill after that! I just laughed! and told them no way.
Eventually my body took over and I had one more mis-carriage after that. The Dr.'s told me that my body is probably rejecting them.
and according to my mother, I would not be here if her BC actually worked also.

:backaway :coffee: :questionmark:

[freeby4me]

I was under the impression that BC pills, taken regularly, stop ovulation, which will cause NO EGG to be present to ever get fertilized, but the MORNING AFTER PILL will either stop implantation or cause a spontaneous abortion. Am I wrong?

Thats the impression I had. Thats why some women dont even get their period after taking them for awhile.

[turbob]

You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion. I, in turn, am entitled to mine. I have no comment on abortion, because what I believe is MY business. I take offence at your sweeping statement " Cmmon sense about Abortion that ALL should agree on.". WHY should I agree, because YOU think I should??? I also take offense at your vague suggestion that if I do not believe in God, something terrible is going to happen to me. I am not going to say if I believe in God or not, because that also is NONE of your business. I do need to tell you that even though I do not practice a Christian religion, I have good things happen to me every day. Christians do NOT have a lock on being "blessed". I suggest you watch the movie Dogma and really listen to the message - I am not saying it is right or wrong, but does raise some interesting ideas.

[lisahiser]

If you have 14 or 15 year old kid come in for an abortion it is obvious that a crime has taken place. As doctors they are required by law to report the crime of rape/abuse. That's why it is their responsibility. If it isn't then er doctors wouldn't have to report kids with excessive bruising. :monkeys

When I was 18 in High School back in 1994 we had Two 6th graders one was 12 and the other 13 that were pregnant. Everyone knew about it, the 12 year old even had twins......... so if you could imagine, these poor girls and guess what the guys that were 16 at the time that got them pregnant were not even charged for anything...... nor was anything done about it.
Nothing happened. It was very sad, I wasn't even thinking about that stuff when I was in 6th grade. I didn't even thing about anything like that until I was in 9th grade and that was because I hung out with older kids.
But it was so sad. The 13 year old parents forced her to sign away her rights, so that they could give the baby away, because they didn't want to take care of it. She wanted that baby Sad........... very sad.
I remember when we all found out about it. I was just so shocked for those girls and they still live here too. and that is how everyone knows them.

[cpbaby]

Thats the impression I had. Thats why some women dont even get their period after taking them for awhile.

I think we are basically right, according to this site...and all of the other sites I found. This one is just basic, the rest have ALOT of jargon I didnt need to get the same exact information.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0663.html

Birth control pills fool the body into acting as if it's pregnant. Birth control pills, also called oral contraceptives (OCs), come in two forms: the combined OC, a combination of two synthetic hormones, estrogen and progestin; and, the minipill, which consists solely of progestin. Combined OCs are more commonly used, though both kinds are available through health care providers. The combination pill prevents ovulation by suppressing the natural hormones in the body that would stimulate the ovary to release an egg. By taking this estrogen throughout the month, you insure that no egg will be developed or released for that cycle. Progestin thickens the cervical mucus, hindering the movement of sperm. Progestin also prevents the uterus's lining from developing normally; so, if an egg were fertilized, implantation is unlikely.


That said, no, BC pills are not 100% effective, I have THREE because of that 98.7% effectivness rate. HOWEVER< think how many I would have had if I WASNT on the pill........

[Katt]

Originally Posted by cpbaby
I was under the impression that BC pills, taken regularly, stop ovulation, which will cause NO EGG to be present to ever get fertilized, but the MORNING AFTER PILL will either stop implantation or cause a spontaneous abortion. Am I wrong?

No, they do not all stop ovulation. (some of the new ones do, but my medical books during nursing school haven't included the last year or two's developments) They stop the egg from implanting. In the cases where egg was fertilized, the back up of the pill is to shred the lining (thus causing a "scheduled" period) Any implanted and fertilized egg is then aborted with the lining. You would not know if a fertilized egg was included, because it would appear as clots, depending on how heavy your periods usually are. I actually worked a miscarry last week. She was two months along. After it was over, I asked the doctor (because I could not tell when he actually had gotten all of the remaining tissue out, it all looked the same to me) if she had passed it before coming. He said no, that it was the larger amount of "clot" that he had to D/C out.

Most BC pills are three weeks of pills and one week of placebo. During this week, the body automatically sheers away the cervical lining and everything in it. That's why there is only three weeks of pills, the stoppage of the additional estrogen/progesterone combo will cause the sheer. Thus, anything that happens to implant, is aborted.

Some of the newer ones, that stop ovulation completely, I'm not really sure about to be perfectly honest. I stopped reading my maternity/newborn nursing books once I graduated. Not to mention with the way new products are coming out, stuff changes every year or so. But, that is how the older (ortho novum etc) work.

You can go to any college library and look at the textbooks of maternity nursing, and they will show the complete cycle of a body during birth control pill usuage. Many believe what they want and it usually leans to whatever would support their cause and thus lead to less inner turmoil. Many pro-lifers believe that life actually starts at fertilization, not implantation, therefore many BC pills would fall against their beliefs. I've seen many articles by pro-life sites that try to refute the fact that the failsafe of BC pills is actually a spontaneous abortion. I imagine that information helps to ease the mind of those pro-life people who take BC pills to prevent pregnancy. Just as the belief that life doesn't start until the fetus is able to sustain itself without host, probably helps to east the mind of those who are pro-choice.

[cpbaby]

Katt,

Ok, but then are we(collective) told that it take a few months for ovulation to start after you go off the pill? Seriously, I am just confused.

[Katt]

because it depends on the type of pills, and the type of hormone it has in it. Each does something different, like your post said. (the progesterone and estrogen) The hormones build in your body, and if the pill you are one has estrogen it will take those few months (theoretically) to let the levels decrease enough for ovulation to resume.

What confuses me is, larger amounts of estrogen are now found to be a contributing factor in breast cancer. I'm wondering how these new ones (that stop ovulation) are doing it without pumping you full of estrogen. I guess I should start reading now that I have access to the hospitals library.

ETA: When I was on the pill, I was always told it would take a few months for my periods to normalize after stopping, but to use other precautions. I always assumed that meant ovulation would occur and the chances of me getting pregnant where there after stopping the pill.

Maybe one of the older nurses on the board can answer, because all I know is what my texts had in them, and stuff is always changing.

[freeby4me]

Katt,

Ok, but then are we(collective) told that it take a few months for ovulation to start after you go off the pill? Seriously, I am just confused.

I think thats just an average amount of time it takes women to get preggers after stopping the pill. Just like its average of 18 months after stopping the shot (some get preggers after 2 months, its just a general number)

[cpbaby]

Thanks, I think, lol. I am just confusing myself more and I had a tubal when I had my c/s with Sophie, so Im not sure why I care...just curiosity, I guess.

See, I found this, too.

http://www.fwhc.org/qa/bc-whyperiod.htm

[DtroitPunk]

You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion. I, in turn, am entitled to mine. I have no comment on abortion, because what I believe is MY business. I take offence at your sweeping statement " Cmmon sense about Abortion that ALL should agree on.". WHY should I agree, because YOU think I should??? I also take offense at your vague suggestion that if I do not believe in God, something terrible is going to happen to me. I am not going to say if I believe in God or not, because that also is NONE of your business. I do need to tell you that even though I do not practice a Christian religion, I have good things happen to me every day. Christians do NOT have a lock on being "blessed". I suggest you watch the movie Dogma and really listen to the message - I am not saying it is right or wrong, but does raise some interesting ideas.

Actually that title only applies to my first post. And I thought that MOST would agree that personal responsibility is important and that Pregnancy prevention should be the ORDER of the day. If everyone practiced this there would be a lOT less need for abortions.

MAny people see this as a control issue sadly. Even women who say I would NEVER have an abortion are uncomfortable telling anyone else that its wrong.

IF YOU believe its wrong for you then why isnt it WRONG? There is no such thing as gray areas. Either things are wrong or right. Correct or false.

And I wont argue that we are all in AMerica prone to being and feeling Blessed. I am only saying that if there is a creator, which HONEST research can PROVE there is...Who is it and what does that mean for our lives. And the movie Dogma if I am not very much mistaken applies mainly to CAtholicism and as you may see from my other posts I am CONSTANTLY at odds with them.

I do apologize that what you consider to be my OPINIONS trouble you, but you may wish to evaluate why that is. Your opinions dont trouble me a bit except for my concern for your soul.

IF there is a GOD and IF he has expectations and guidelines for our lives than whether you belive in him or not you will still be judged according to his standards.

I believe this absolutely and you do not. ONE of us is correct. This is not something you can gamble with PLEASE actually check it out for yourself.

www.leestrobel.com

This link goes to a site whos owner WAS an atheist and a newspaper man with a Degree in law. His wife got saved and he decided to actually look at Christianity like a reporter, and he came away a Born Again Christian.

[DtroitPunk]

I find this a bit amusing that you listen to Eminem, yet preach Gods word and such...interesting to say the least. I didnt realize Eminem was so close to God now days.

HMM wel I find it interesting that someone who claims to be a Christian and I believe doesnt think that anyone should judge is so quick to judge me!

I never told people that I loved Eminem's music or encouraged anyone to buy his cds. You have no idea where I heard about that song or anything. I TRY to be a good steward of what God has given me, THAT means that I do not give my money to any person or organization KNOWINGLY that supports ideals contrary to my beliefs.

You on the other hand in another thread were telling everyone how GREAT broke back mountain is!!! First off from what I have heard of this story its all about 2 men who CHEAT on their wives and then fall in lOVE with each other?

How can any CHRISTIAN pay to see such crap? And whats worse encourage others?

HOW dare you judge me! If you were trying to live righteously and you showed me from the bible that I was wrong I would have to submit.

But this type of HYPOCRISY, makes me feel sad for you.:slap

[freeby4me]

Thanks, I think, lol. I am just confusing myself more and I had a tubal when I had my c/s with Sophie, so Im not sure why I care...just curiosity, I guess.

See, I found this, too.

http://www.fwhc.org/qa/bc-whyperiod.htm

LOL its OK It is very confusing isnt it!

[ahippiechic]

MAny people see this as a control issue sadly. Even women who say I would NEVER have an abortion are uncomfortable telling anyone else that its wrong.

IF YOU believe its wrong for you then why isnt it WRONG? There is no such thing as gray areas. Either things are wrong or right. Correct or false.



Yes, there are such things as "grey areas'. Hardly anything in real life is black or white. While I thought abortion would be the wrong choice for me when I was pregnant, that doesn't make it wrong for everyone else and in every other circumstance. Everyones circumstances, expectations, needs, wants, life experience, religious beliefs, etc. are different. All those things go into making a decision about an abortion.

What's right for me isn't always what's right for everyone else. And vice versa.

[cpbaby]

Very! lol

[ahippiechic]

And I didn't see ANYWHERE that Yankeemary was judging you. Being amused by you and judging are 2 diff things.

But I AM bad to judge people based on what I know of them. And from what I know of you, from your posts here, I really don't like. People like you make me so sad, I feel sorry for you. Going to such expremes to try and force everyone to agree with you. Pitiful.

[Shann]

Ok first off I was speaking in generalities. But I think even you would agree that deciding to have unwed and unprotected sex is ALWAYS a bad idea. You have a son from this union and that is WONDERFUL. This doesnt change the fact that just as easily you could have had AIDS.


I teach my boys that there is NO SEX before marriage.

I will be honest we did have relations before marriage.


But by having sex outside of marriage ACCORDING to the bible she has played the whore.

All right.. I'm confused... you tell your boys it's NOT ok to have sex before marriage yet you openly admit that you and your wife who were not married had unwed intimate relations, weren't you worried about AIDS and other STIs? :confused: :questionmark: I feel this is a complete double standard.. you said you were "careful" how do you know other people were not careful? If you're in a committed relationship, chances are both parties have been tested for STIs and felt safe enough to not use a condom. (at least I would hope both people were tested...) and... does your wife know that according to the bible and your word, she played the whore? You shouldn't go around knocking how other people live their lives and their choices when you haven't been living your life the way you are preaching. :stir

[turbob]

"I do apologize that what you consider to be my OPINIONS trouble you, but you may wish to evaluate why that is. Your opinions dont trouble me a bit except for my concern for your soul.

IF there is a GOD and IF he has expectations and guidelines for our lives than whether you belive in him or not you will still be judged according to his standards.

I believe this absolutely and you do not. ONE of us is correct. This is not something you can gamble with PLEASE actually check it out for yourself."


OK, here we go. Your opinions DO NOT trouble me, what troubles me is your desire to ram them down my throat. As for your "concern for my soul",PLEASE do not be concerned. You are NOT the person I will stand in front of when my time comes, so your concern actually means little.

How do you actually know whos standards we will be judged by? Please do not state that the Bible says it is so, because the Bible was written by men NOT God.

And last but not least, perhaps you should open your mind enough to admit that perhaps we are BOTH wrong?

Somehow I am not surprized that you are male. Forgive me, but if you cannot actually do something(I.E. give birth) that you are not qualified to judge an action you will never need.

[Angelseyes28]

All right.. I'm confused... you tell your boys it's NOT ok to have sex before marriage yet you openly admit that you and your wife who were not married had unwed intimate relations, weren't you worried about AIDS and other STIs? :confused: :questionmark: I feel this is a complete double standard.. you said you were "careful" how do you know other people were not careful? If you're in a committed relationship, chances are both parties have been tested for STIs and felt safe enough to not use a condom. (at least I would hope both people were tested...) and... does your wife know that according to the bible and your word, she played the whore? You shouldn't go around knocking how other people live their lives and their choices when you haven't been living your life the way you are preaching. :stir

I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught on to that!:D

[freeby4me]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught on to that!:D

I gave up catching onto his nonsense posts awhile ago, he is like a snake...trying to slither outta anything. Hmm...I remember a bible reference to a snake LOL:monkeys

[Katt]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that caught on to that!:D


That's what I was thinking. I know if Kevin was on here, talking about how women who give it up before marriage are whores, then in another breath said I gave it up...but it's different because we weren't religious at the time, I'd be pissed. By those statements alone, he would be saying I'm in the whore catagory.

Then again, he said she's been reading and telling him his comments would upset people, so she knows what's being said and evidently doesn't mind being lumped in that catagory.

I dunno, I gave up trying to understand and follow all the talking in circles that has been done.

I do know though, it's posts like some that I have seen in the past few days (week) whatever, that really push me farther way from the church.

[freeby4me]

ITA Katt. I tried explaining that to him before that acting so hard headed about the Church is only going to push those away. He's only interested in being right and (what appears) he wants everyone to worship him. I thought as a Christian he was supposed to "preach" the word of God. Not Bash everyone's brains in with it...

[buttrfli]

I have TWO birth control pill babies.... BC didn't stop anything LOL Dr told me that the first time was a fluke... then when I went for a PG test with the last one, the nurse said "shit happens!" (she really did! LOL)

My first BC baby just turned 18 and my 2nd one will be 10 this month :D

[DtroitPunk]

Yes, there are such things as "grey areas'. Hardly anything in real life is black or white. While I thought abortion would be the wrong choice for me when I was pregnant, that doesn't make it wrong for everyone else and in every other circumstance. Everyones circumstances, expectations, needs, wants, life experience, religious beliefs, etc. are different. All those things go into making a decision about an abortion.

What's right for me isn't always what's right for everyone else. And vice versa.

I understand what you are saying, but I just cant agree. There are grey areas ONLY because we insist on them. And what you say about whats right for you isnt always right for everyone else is actually a tenet of most ALL pagan faiths.

In the Book of the Law by Aleister Crowley we find this Gem... DO what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law be that thou harm none.

This almost sounds reasonable except that it is IMPOSSIBLE to live only for yourself and not harm anyone unless you only mean PHYSICALLY.

Situational ethics NEVER work in the long run.

[DtroitPunk]

I'm sure you were. I just meant that he said we should teach our daughters about how bad some men can be. I just thought it would be better to also teach our son's how to treat women.

Boy every body here sure gets bent out of shape with me! WE are in total AGREEMENT! WHY do you guys insist that I am saying that ONLY girls are responsible. MANY families in AMerica dont have fathers in them. A boy learns alot nad takes his cues on how to treat a woman by how his father treats his mother.

WHen I said girls should be taught better. That is because EVERY girl (just ABout) has a female role model.

I was never saying that BOYS also shouldnt be taught how to respect themselves and the women in their lives. I was only pointing out the obvious that Girls do have the final say.

This thread is about abortion...ONLY girls can have abortions that is why I said what I said. And it really shouldnt anger anyone.

[ahippiechic]

So we are all supossed to make the same decisions as you or we're wrong? What's seems right for you should be right for everyone? WTFE. Attitudes like yours are part of the reason that so many people don't even like to hear about religion.

Why not turn it around and say "what's right for Hippie is right for us all". :D I like that!

[DtroitPunk]

Know this...this is far from the truth as what MY BIBLE states.

If you use the KJV that is exactly what your bible states. Please show me where your bible differs from the quotes in that document.

[DtroitPunk]

Her body, her choice.

YES I totally AGREE in a sexual situation. NOT when it comes to life inside her.

THe point I was making is that women really need to OWN the fact that it is their body and start being responsible in their choices.

(realize folks, I know that ALOT of women are responsible)

[DtroitPunk]

So abortion shouldn't be preformed for an incest rape, so that the rapest will have to suffer what??? How stupid. If a young girl is raped by her daddy and becomes pregant, make her carry the child, so the father can be punished. HOW??? The young girl is devastated enough but lets make her carry this child for 9 months, only for it to be born with numerous defects due to incest, but no worries, the father will suffer.
How stupid.

Actually you are being alarmist and STUPID. SO you would have the father rape the girl over and over? If the father is placed in prison, the Girl can give the child up for adoption, and IF the baby were to be mediacally disadvantaged, the girl in most cases would still have the right to an abortion.

[YankeeMary]

HMM wel I find it interesting that someone who claims to be a Christian and I believe doesnt think that anyone should judge is so quick to judge me!

I never told people that I loved Eminem's music or encouraged anyone to buy his cds. You have no idea where I heard about that song or anything. I TRY to be a good steward of what God has given me, THAT means that I do not give my money to any person or organization KNOWINGLY that supports ideals contrary to my beliefs.

You on the other hand in another thread were telling everyone how GREAT broke back mountain is!!! First off from what I have heard of this story its all about 2 men who CHEAT on their wives and then fall in lOVE with each other?

How can any CHRISTIAN pay to see such crap? And whats worse encourage others?

HOW dare you judge me! If you were trying to live righteously and you showed me from the bible that I was wrong I would have to submit.

But this type of HYPOCRISY, makes me feel sad for you.:slap

You know if I thought more of you, I would be offended, but I don't so I am not.
When my stepdaughter goes on and on and on about religious, it generally means she is off her meds and needs to be put in the hospital...maybe its something you should consider.
Seriously, you give Christians a bad name and if you want to call me names and doubt my Christianity, then honey I say have it, I have been called worse by alot better I can assure you. So you just continue on as you have been, turning fence riders against God and I will just sit here pretending to be a Christian. And yes I love Broke Back Mountain, I not only gave my money to rent it, I also purchased a copy just for me. Sure hope I don't burn in hell because I can't hate everyone.

[DtroitPunk]

That whole site where that came from is stupid.

WOW! You really gave persuasive arguments for how stupid this site is!!! Thank you for showing us all how silly I was for posting this.:sigh

I dont care if you disagree with me, but at least when you say something I say is wrong or stupid PLEASE defend your statement with some sort of argument.

[YankeeMary]

Actually you are being alarmist and STUPID. SO you would have the father rape the girl over and over? If the father is placed in prison, the Girl can give the child up for adoption, and IF the baby were to be mediacally disadvantaged, the girl in most cases would still have the right to an abortion.

You just can't stop can you? I am stupid...oh joy you have had yet another revelation...get over yourself.

[YankeeMary]

If you use the KJV that is exactly what your bible states. Please show me where your bible differs from the quotes in that document.

I have nothing to prove to you. You think are entitled to something because you can read a book, call people name, place judgment all because you are a black christian father that works and tries to teach his children right? It entitles you to nothing, I expect it out of you and evey other adult that has children. Get over yourself. Jesus didn't walk around trying to make enemies, why are you???

[YankeeMary]

Actually you are being alarmist and STUPID. SO you would have the father rape the girl over and over? If the father is placed in prison, the Girl can give the child up for adoption, and IF the baby were to be mediacally disadvantaged, the girl in most cases would still have the right to an abortion.

Yes thats what I want, a girl to be rapped by her father repeatedly...are you for real??? I would be to embarrassed to ask such a question....geesh.

[ahippiechic]

WOW! You really gave persuasive arguments for how stupid this site is!!! Thank you for showing us all how silly I was for posting this.:sigh

I dont care if you disagree with me, but at least when you say something I say is wrong or stupid PLEASE defend your statement with some sort of argument.


I wasn't trying to argue a point with you, just sayin'...I think that site is stupid.
Oh yeah, I forgot, we're all supossed to think like you, my bad.


And calling Mary stupid is a good arguement for something??? Ooook...actually I think she's right, they make meds for the issues you seem to have. Or if you're already on them, maybe you're taking too many and need to slack off.

[DtroitPunk]

All right.. I'm confused... you tell your boys it's NOT ok to have sex before marriage yet you openly admit that you and your wife who were not married had unwed intimate relations, weren't you worried about AIDS and other STIs? :confused: :questionmark: I feel this is a complete double standard.. you said you were "careful" how do you know other people were not careful? If you're in a committed relationship, chances are both parties have been tested for STIs and felt safe enough to not use a condom. (at least I would hope both people were tested...) and... does your wife know that according to the bible and your word, she played the whore? You shouldn't go around knocking how other people live their lives and their choices when you haven't been living your life the way you are preaching. :stir

I speak to my kids in age appropriate and HONEST conversations. I was foolish when I did what I did. But I never said that I didnt use contraception. UNTIL marriage I always used contraception.

SO yes I was worried about and gave REAL consideration to std's and PREGNANCY. Just because we were reasonably certain that we were both clean didnt give us the right to be irresponsible. Neither of us was living for God then, but we still knew that we had to be responsible in our choices and actions.

YES my wife does know that according to the bible she was a whore. key word WAS. She has asked for and been given FORGIVENESS. Because she admits as I do that we were wrong for what we did.

EVERYONE in the world has some sort of past and didnt always do what was right. When I was a kid I thought that just because we loved each other and were committed to each other it was ok.

You can act all you want like this is hypocrisy, but thats only if you dont know the definition.

Everyone her probably has had some legitimate beefs with me before but to ATTACK me for being HONEST?

[Quaker_Parrots]

YES I totally AGREE in a sexual situation. NOT when it comes to life inside her.

THe point I was making is that women really need to OWN the fact that it is their body and start being responsible in their choices.

(realize folks, I know that ALOT of women are responsible)


Ok, so you are saying the WOMAN is totally at fault for getting pregnant and a man has nothing what so ever to do with it?

What are you dude (I am assuming you are male from some of your posts) a monk? Are you saying you never have sex? Have you ever been in such a situation? and If you have, did you step up to the plate, run, or push for the abortion? Or are you one of these people who stand outside abortion clinics and plot or carry out shotings and bombings? Is Eric Rudolph your hero?

What about in the case of Ectopic pregnancy? Is it murder to have an abortion in your eyes in this case?

On that note, I will say I am pro choice, which does not mean I am pro abortion. I would never get one myself, but I feel that a woman should have the option to chose. I am totally against partial birth abortions.

[DtroitPunk]

"I do apologize that what you consider to be my OPINIONS trouble you, but you may wish to evaluate why that is. Your opinions dont trouble me a bit except for my concern for your soul.

IF there is a GOD and IF he has expectations and guidelines for our lives than whether you belive in him or not you will still be judged according to his standards.

I believe this absolutely and you do not. ONE of us is correct. This is not something you can gamble with PLEASE actually check it out for yourself."


OK, here we go. Your opinions DO NOT trouble me, what troubles me is your desire to ram them down my throat. As for your "concern for my soul",PLEASE do not be concerned. You are NOT the person I will stand in front of when my time comes, so your concern actually means little.

How do you actually know whos standards we will be judged by? Please do not state that the Bible says it is so, because the Bible was written by men NOT God.

And last but not least, perhaps you should open your mind enough to admit that perhaps we are BOTH wrong?

Somehow I am not surprized that you are male. Forgive me, but if you cannot actually do something(I.E. give birth) that you are not qualified to judge an action you will never need.

OK, first off I dont try to RAM my opinions down anyones throat. Do I have you tied to a chair? Am I forcing you to read my posts?

I will not address you with concern any longer, you have asked me not to. BUT my god has told me through his word the BIBLE that I have a responsibility to share his word with the world. THAT is why I Make unpopular statements because I have been told to AND because I care.

MANY here think that I am a big intolerant jerk. I understand this.

What you guys dont understand is that if it were just up to me, EVERYONE could live however they wanted to and go to hell in whatever way seems best to them.

My lord has told me though that if I see a person who DOESNT know his word that I am to share with them lest I be guilty of their souls going to hell. If you say you dont want to hear it I WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE.

So. I am not FORCING my views on anyone simply trying to share and hopefully encourage thought on differing worldviews.

I can admit that I might be wrong. BUT noone here has given me anything more than opinion to show me that I am.

I am not sure why my being a MAN annoys so many women here. I have some ideas, but best not to speculate. EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion on ANY subject. This is America. I dont have to be Mexican to have an opinion on ILLEGAL immigration and I dont need to be a woman to be entitled to an opinion in the abortion debate either. I STARTED THIS THREAD. You have the right to disagree with me, but if you dont like what I have to say on a thread I started you can always NOT READ MY POSTS.

ANd lastly, I wasnt forced or coerced into the Christian Faith I researched religion and checked all the available facts and became a CHristian.

The bible was written by man much the way a letter is typed by a secretary. IF a secretary sends out letters that misrepresent her bosses statements, she will be FIRED.

IF there is a God and he told men what to write and they wrote instead what they wanted....WHAT do you think would happen to them?

Everyone THINKS that the bible can not be trusted. Why not actually do a little research into what you deride before you make value judgements. A good start would be The Case For Faith by Lee Strobel. HE goes to leading theological and religious authorities with some of the toughest and most common questions non believers have about Christianity like how can I trust the bible etc.

If you choose to ignore me I will understand. I am NOT trying to force anything on anybody.

[DtroitPunk]

Ok, so you are saying the WOMAN is totally at fault for getting pregnant and a man has nothing what so ever to do with it?

What are you dude (I am assuming you are male from some of your posts) a monk? Are you saying you never have sex? Have you ever been in such a situation? and If you have, did you step up to the plate, run, or push for the abortion? Or are you one of these people who stand outside abortion clinics and plot or carry out shotings and bombings? Is Eric Rudolph your hero?

What about in the case of Ectopic pregnancy? Is it murder to have an abortion in your eyes in this case?

On that note, I will say I am pro choice, which does not mean I am pro abortion. I would never get one myself, but I feel that a woman should have the option to chose. I am totally against partial birth abortions.


PLEASE read my other posts! I never said what you think I said and I explain all about my beliefs and my sex life in my posts.

[YankeeMary]

YES my wife does know that according to the bible she was a whore. key word WAS. She has asked for and been given FORGIVENESS. Because she admits as I do that we were wrong for what we did.



Wow...how disrespectful is this??? Man o man...geesh...

Just out of curiosity what did it make you when you were sleeping with her???

Amazing how God is able to forgive you and your wife for your sinful ways but God can't forgive anyone else, according to you and your Bible.

[DtroitPunk]

You know if I thought more of you, I would be offended, but I don't so I am not.
When my stepdaughter goes on and on and on about religious, it generally means she is off her meds and needs to be put in the hospital...maybe its something you should consider.
Seriously, you give Christians a bad name and if you want to call me names and doubt my Christianity, then honey I say have it, I have been called worse by alot better I can assure you. So you just continue on as you have been, turning fence riders against God and I will just sit here pretending to be a Christian. And yes I love Broke Back Mountain, I not only gave my money to rent it, I also purchased a copy just for me. Sure hope I don't burn in hell because I can't hate everyone.

ALL I will adress here is that I DONT HATE ANYONE. But I will not as A christian own ANY movie whos whole premise id sexual immorality and marital infidelity. This is just me. ANd whats with all the personal attacks? you cant actually debate me or argue me down so you have to imply that I need medication? OK whatever makes you feel better.

But I notice that you think you are better than I am but you still didnt show me that your bible says something that Bob Enyarts doesnt.

I use the bible to support my views and convictions you just say THATS WHAT I THINK!!! SO TUFF TITTY!

I believe at this point that it is obvious that we will never agree so unless you ask me something I wont answer.

[DtroitPunk]

I have nothing to prove to you. You think are entitled to something because you can read a book, call people name, place judgment all because you are a black christian father that works and tries to teach his children right? It entitles you to nothing, I expect it out of you and evey other adult that has children. Get over yourself. Jesus didn't walk around trying to make enemies, why are you???

Actually, I am of mixed origin but LOOK alot like my icon. I am not black and neither were either of my parents, not that this should even be an issue.

AND I said you were being stupid and alarmist because of your name calling my site and I proved that your statements were FALSE.

I personally do think its important that I have a book (the Bible) it gives me absolute guidance. When I am not sure what is right, I turn to it. And as someone who uses Christs name (christian) the bible SHOULD matter to you as well.

ANd Jesus didnt go around trying to make enemies...but he made plenty anyways didnt he? I also am not trying to make enemies. But I wont cry if you dislike me. In fact I wont even Care...Jesus spoke the truth . And based on his word I try to do the same.

Like I said just a minute ago...we are done here:closed

[YankeeMary]

ALL I will adress here is that I DONT HATE ANYONE. But I will not as A christian own ANY movie whos whole premise id sexual immorality and marital infidelity. This is just me. ANd whats with all the personal attacks? you cant actually debate me or argue me down so you have to imply that I need medication? OK whatever makes you feel better.

But I notice that you think you are better than I am but you still didnt show me that your bible says something that Bob Enyarts doesnt.

I use the bible to support my views and convictions you just say THATS WHAT I THINK!!! SO TUFF TITTY!

I believe at this point that it is obvious that we will never agree so unless you ask me something I wont answer.

You come here, call me names, try to judge me, etc...and poor you??? What ever.
Yes, I do think I am better then you. So what? You will never ever hear me tell someone their religion is wrong, because I SAID SO. You do not want to discuss or debate. You want to dictate and all your research and all your readings are fine and perfect for you but for others it isn't. Because people don't want to trash the Catholic religion and people don't want to agree to your weird ways, thoughts, then they aren't Christians, yadda yadda yadda. I have been here for years and have even fed many many trolls like yourself. I just keep telling myself, this to shall pass. You will bore and move onto another forum and trash their members etc...you are very typical for this type of forum.
But know one thing you can take to the bank and talk to your God about, Mary will pray for you as she does for hundred of others nightly. God loves and you are a child of God and I too love you but at the same time I pity you that you think being a Christian means, no enjoying anything except tearing others and their religions down and of course belittling people because they are different that you.
I happen to have Christ in my heart. I witness for the Lord to the best of my ability and if it doesn't pass your tests, well frankly I don't give a darn. All I can do is pray for you.

[Quaker_Parrots]

MANY here think that I am a big intolerant jerk. I understand this.

I am not sure why my being a MAN annoys so many women here. I have some ideas, but best not to speculate.

Everyone THINKS that the bible can not be trusted. Why not actually do a little research into what you deride before you make value judgements. A good start would be The Case For Faith by Lee Strobel. HE goes to leading theological and religious authorities with some of the toughest and most common questions non believers have about Christianity like how can I trust the bible etc.



If you are reading Lee Strobel, I can understand your jaded "christian" view. The man professes to be an Athiest turned Christian.
http://www.leestrobel.com/LS_bio.htm


Also, it isn't that you are a man, we have plenty of men who post here that we like, you just come across as a rude obnoxious jerk. I honestly feel sorry for your wife if you go around calling her a "whore." If you had sex before marriage(which I believe I saw in another of your posts) wouldn't that make you a "whore" as well. Does she know you call her that? How can you have a loving relationship if you think so badly of her?

Also, I really dont want to read through all of your posts to get the answer to the questions I asked, I can see how you are from one or two.

[DtroitPunk]

And I didn't see ANYWHERE that Yankeemary was judging you. Being amused by you and judging are 2 diff things.

But I AM bad to judge people based on what I know of them. And from what I know of you, from your posts here, I really don't like. People like you make me so sad, I feel sorry for you. Going to such expremes to try and force everyone to agree with you. Pitiful.

She did judge me by bringing up eminem as If I liked him. When you make a decision about someone without all the facts that is a judgement.

judgment: an opinion formed by judging something

judgment: the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event

[YankeeMary]

Actually, I am of mixed origin but LOOK alot like my icon. I am not black and neither were either of my parents, not that this should even be an issue.

AND I said you were being stupid and alarmist because of your name calling my site and I proved that your statements were FALSE.

I personally do think its important that I have a book (the Bible) it gives me absolute guidance. When I am not sure what is right, I turn to it. And as someone who uses Christs name (christian) the bible SHOULD matter to you as well.

ANd Jesus didnt go around trying to make enemies...but he made plenty anyways didnt he? I also am not trying to make enemies. But I wont cry if you dislike me. In fact I wont even Care...Jesus spoke the truth . And based on his word I try to do the same.

Like I said just a minute ago...we are done here:closed

Well you changed your signature line because it did say Black.
Talk about not answering questions...I asked you questions and since you can't or won't answer them then the topic is closed.
You called your wife and the mother of your children a whore. I am curious as to what you are called for your sinful ways. You need to be accountable remember. You expect all of us to be accountable, and thats according to the Bible. Yet you won't step to the plate??? hmmmm...Does your wife know you just called her a whore on forum? How shameful. I feel for her. Your butt would be in the doghouse.

[YankeeMary]

She did judge me by bringing up eminem as If I liked him. When you make a decision about someone without all the facts that is a judgement.

judgment: an opinion formed by judging something

judgment: the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event

You put the words to one of his songs up...hmmm makes me think you have heard it at least once. I can't even tell you a single name of one of his songs, let alone an entire chorus. I wasn't judging you I made an observation, huge difference and according to you it is my DUTY TO JUDGE, I AM A CHRISTIAN. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

I made a decision about you long before the song was posted. I made an opinion about you when you thought it was ok to kill a 15 year old kid because he cut through someones yard, numerous times.
I can not Judge you, as judging means to me I would be judging where your soul goes to once you die, I do not have that ability...thank God.

[ahippiechic]

If she's a whore then so is he. And yes, his sig did say "black' but I see he's changed it.

And I can't belive he's whining about being judged and called names. He's doing it too. And calling Mary stupid, is just ...well, stupid. :D

[DtroitPunk]

If you are reading Lee Strobel, I can understand your jaded "christian" view. The man professes to be an Athiest turned Christian.
http://www.leestrobel.com/LS_bio.htm


Also, it isn't that you are a man, we have plenty of men who post here that we like, you just come across as a rude obnoxious jerk. I honestly feel sorry for your wife if you go around calling her a "whore" If you had sex before marriage(which I believe I saw in another of your posts) wouldn't that make you a "whore" as well. Does she know you call her that? How can you have a loving relationship if you think so badly of her?

Also, I really dont want to read through all of your posts to get the answer to the questions I asked, I can see how you are from one or two.

I have actually made some efforts to tone down my statements. You are the one getting ugly with me here when you dont even know what I think! MY wife has had a loving supporting husband for almost 16 years. I dont drink, I dont abuse her, I dont gamble or run around. And I treat her with respect. I dont ever call her a whore. I was saying that she knew that she had played the whore. JUST AS I HAD.

I doubt to many of you women here would feel sorry for yourselves if you had a husband like me. My wife is going to college, while I handle almost everything else for her! Thats right I cook I clean I do dishes. She just wont let me near the laundry!

And any question that you have since you cant be troubled to actually know what I believe PLEASE ask and I will answer.

You dont judge a whole book by 2 or 3 paragraphs now do you?

[Katt]

I'm having flashbacks to how the religious forum used to be and why it was shut down for so long lol.

[Quaker_Parrots]

I doubt to many of you women here would feel sorry for yourselves if you had a husband like me.

You dont judge a whole book by 2 or 3 paragraphs now do you?

No, but I can tell by that much if it is going to be something worth reading, or a real dawg.

BTW who said anyone feels sorry for themself? I personally love my husband, and have none of the problems with him your are describing.

[DtroitPunk]

If she's a whore then so is he. And yes, his sig did say "black' but I see he's changed it.

And I can't belive he's whining about being judged and called names. He's doing it too. And calling Mary stupid, is just ...well, stupid. :D

MY sig NEVER said black. You really must have me confused with someone else. I havent changed my sig since I got here, I actually wanted it longer but ran out of room.

AND read my posts I said we were both wrong.

MY point was that Mary is one of those who believes it is wrong to judge.

SHe is violating her own beliefs.

[Quaker_Parrots]

Hey, Hippie or Katt, what was that dude's name that used to be on here that was into wife swapping? Doesn't this guys tone kinda remind you of him? Not the topic of course, but just the mannerisms?

[YankeeMary]

MY sig NEVER said black. You really must have me confused with someone else. I havent changed my sig since I got here, I actually wanted it longer but ran out of room.

AND read my posts I said we were both wrong.

MY point was that Mary is one of those who believes it is wrong to judge.

SHe is violating her own beliefs.

You have no clue as to my beliefs. Why bother????

And your sig did say BLACK!!! I know it did because when I first read it I thought who cares what color you are. And you said you were black in a couple of threads as well.

[YankeeMary]

Hey, Hippie or Katt, what was that dude's name that used to be on here that was into wife swapping? Doesn't this guys tone kinda remind you of him? Not the topic of course, but just the mannerisms?

Started with a Z....zidemire...something I can rememeber him just not the spelling of his name.

[YankeeMary]

I have actually made some efforts to tone down my statements. You are the one getting ugly with me here when you dont even know what I think! MY wife has had a loving supporting husband for almost 16 years. I dont drink, I dont abuse her, I dont gamble or run around. And I treat her with respect. I dont ever call her a whore. I was saying that she knew that she had played the whore. JUST AS I HAD.

I doubt to many of you women here would feel sorry for yourselves if you had a husband like me. My wife is going to college, while I handle almost everything else for her! Thats right I cook I clean I do dishes. She just wont let me near the laundry!

And any question that you have since you cant be troubled to actually know what I believe PLEASE ask and I will answer.

You dont judge a whole book by 2 or 3 paragraphs now do you?

This is expected of you. Sorry you get no cookies.

[Quaker_Parrots]

Yeah, Zodemere I think. This guy kind of reminds me of him. Zode was a real pot stirrer.

[suprtruckr]

zodemere?

but i was thinking mikaer

[YankeeMary]

zodemere?

but i was thinking mikaer

Thats another one...lol...they are everywhere...:troll

[Katt]

I was thinking Halster, only on the other side of the fence.

[Quaker_Parrots]

*I grew up in detroit in a totally mixed neighborhood. My mom was caucasian and my dad puerto rican, I had blacks and Arabic's living in my building
*I was raised with NO moral or religious guidelines I was allowed to do whatever I wanted and my mother and I had a horrible relationship for years after.
*My whole family just happen to be sort of Gothic with dyed black hair piercings etc.

Found this in previous posts: http://www.bigbigforums.com/news-information/544327-lawn-loving-man-gets-life-murder-15-yr-old-who-walked-grass-5.html#post95594775
http://www.bigbigforums.com/vent-whine/544313-best-solution-problem-illegal-immigration-u-s-5.html#post95595042

This may be where you might have thought he was black: http://www.bigbigforums.com/vent-whine/498860-ray-nagin-can-you-believe-guy-5.html#post95597235

[DBackFan]

Sorry guys but I am with dp here. I have been following his posts for awhile and I have never seen him say he was black NOR did I ever see it in a sig line. (would like some proof with the pudding please)
Seems to me I have been in this mans place before here with the 'gang bangin' that goes on with certain individuals. I realize he is very controversial but hey that what makes him interesting to me.

Hey dp let em jump me for awhile..I'm used to it ;)

[27Summers]

Sorry guys but I am with dp here. I have been following his posts for awhile and I have never seen him say he was black NOR did I ever see it in a sig line. (would like some proof with the pudding please)
Seems to me I have been in this mans place before here with the 'gang bangin' that goes on with certain individuals. I realize he is very controversial but hey that what makes him interesting to me.

Hey dp let em jump me for awhile..I'm used to it ;)

same here, never saw that in his sig line or mention it elsewhere.
and I've been there too. LOL

[YankeeMary]

Just tell me why in the world would I make that up??? And I sure don't ever remember giving either one of you any kind of grief. Lets just ignore the fact that he enjoys insulting religions and name calling.

[YankeeMary]

I might be mistaken about him saying it in his threads but I am positive the sig line stated it. I am going back now and rereading all his threads to find out for sure. I do know he stated his is multiracial, which could be any kind of ethinticity (sp).

[Quaker_Parrots]

I might be mistaken about him saying it in his threads but I am positive the sig line stated it. I am going back now and rereading all his threads to find out for sure. I do know he stated his is multiracial, which could be any kind of ethinticity (sp).


I posted above a few quotes from his earlieast posts what his ethnicity is. I couldn't help you with his sig line though, I honestly havent read alot of his posts, or seen him on here other than this thread.

[YankeeMary]

I posted above a few quotes from his earlieast posts what his ethnicity is. I couldn't help you with his sig line though, I honestly havent read alot of his posts, or seen him on here other than this thread.

I so appreciate it as I said I might be mistaken as him stating it in his postings but I know it was in his sig line, I am positive. I just can't imagine a reason as to why I would lie about it...lol.

[YankeeMary]

Here I sit rereading all the posts...and I think why??? Like any of it matters...lol...I am sorry about stating he referred to himself as black in his posting, I was mistaken and wrong. But I do know it said black in his sig line, but does it matter? Nope, I could care less his color or actually anything about him. I am just glad I realized this before I read any further. I am glad though that this type of thread really brings out peoples "true colors". I also aplogize for allowing myself to be tempted by the wolf in sheeps clothing, the Bible does warn us of this. I didn't mean to lose my cool over some silly childlike name calling, and for that I am really sorry. I refuse to allow someone so hellbent on discrediting everyone in regards to their beliefs to upset me further. Sorry guys.

[evrita]

What I dont get is why everyone HAS to agree with you ? This is insane it really is..

[Bubblescc]

Sorry guys but I am with dp here. I have been following his posts for awhile and I have never seen him say he was black NOR did I ever see it in a sig line. (would like some proof with the pudding please)
Seems to me I have been in this mans place before here with the 'gang bangin' that goes on with certain individuals. I realize he is very controversial but hey that what makes him interesting to me.

Hey dp let em jump me for awhile..I'm used to it ;)

Your right he never said he was black (not sure shy that matters??) and it was NEVER in his sig.....

I have too,lol.....

[Angelseyes28]

judgment: an opinion formed by judging something

judgment: the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event

Oh dear Lord, he's not only a preacher but now he's got a Ph.D. hidden in his butt somewhere :hmpf:

[Angelseyes28]

I'm having flashbacks to how the religious forum used to be and why it was shut down for so long lol.

Reminds ya of the good ole days don't it?:pray :amen :rolling

[buttrfli]

My wife warned me that some of you would get really upset over the EMINEM posting. BUT ...SHE does see my point.

It seems that you are very lucky to have found your wife....

If my DH talked to a women (let alone several of them) the way you do, he'd be single in a heartbeat.

[freeby4me]

Wowsers, I leave to sleep and come back to 5 more pages LOL I can only say YOU GO GIRL!! GO YANKEEMARY!! Woot Woot!!

I think whats most funny is that he's "made an effort to tone down" his statements....Like we really freaking care. The damage has already been done. To me personally, I have no problem with people who are religious, or people who want to preach the word of their God. What I do have a problem with is How they go about doing it and shoving it down peoples throats and telling them how horrible and rotten they are for not believing HIM personally. No thanx. I would rather ROT IN HELL for all eternity than spend it with FREAKS like him....this guy is seriously off his rocker if he thinks acting the way he does is what his God would want to get people to follow.

And also, something I thought about for DtroitPunk...Why, if you're "here" (on Earth right now) to preach the word of your God are you wasting your time on a freebie website?? Why are you not volunteering your time at a local church or helping a group package bibles for people in other countries, or for that matter why arent you off IN another country trying to convert people.

[galeane29]

The fact of the matter is, you are all bashing him because there is hate in your heart. I totaly agree with EVERYTHING he has said.

Any of you would be trying to make your point if it was YOU, you are entitled to your opinion and so is he. A creative debate is fine but why all the bashing? Because he is a man? oh wait, ...thats right, I have been bashed the same way because of my opinion on things which made me quit posting here for a few years.


Let us all just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I have a suggestion. How about we have a arguing thread for those that just NEED to be mean.

Also, I never saw anything where he said he was black and if so ...what the heck does it matter if he is?
Also, premarital sex is wrong even though alot of us have done it, yes I have and it is a sin and I have repented of it and have been forgiven. Only Christians would have sorrow in their hearts because they know the consequence of not repenting and being saved. Some of you are so closed minded that you wont allow others opinions to even be an option.


Christians teach Christianity , thats what we do. Those that do not accept it have the devil in their heart. You have been given the chance to learn His words and you alone will pay the price in the end. Hate is the sign of the devil.

Christian life doesn't happen by accident. It requires planning and a consistent approach. Repentance is particularly difficult for most of us. We find it difficult to face our faults, and also to admit them to others.

Christians take the oportunity to TEACH but I was also taught to never argue about religion.

[galeane29]

Why do you say he is waisting his time here on this forum? And also , why would he have to go to another country to preach? How do you know he does'nt volunteer somewhere?

Also, I would never say I would rather rot in hell than to ANYTHING.




Wowsers, I leave to sleep and come back to 5 more pages LOL I can only say YOU GO GIRL!! GO YANKEEMARY!! Woot Woot!!

I think whats most funny is that he's "made an effort to tone down" his statements....Like we really freaking care. The damage has already been done. To me personally, I have no problem with people who are religious, or people who want to preach the word of their God. What I do have a problem with is How they go about doing it and shoving it down peoples throats and telling them how horrible and rotten they are for not believing HIM personally. No thanx. I would rather ROT IN HELL for all eternity than spend it with FREAKS like him....this guy is seriously off his rocker if he thinks acting the way he does is what his God would want to get people to follow.

And also, something I thought about for DtroitPunk...Why, if you're "here" (on Earth right now) to preach the word of your God are you wasting your time on a freebie website?? Why are you not volunteering your time at a local church or helping a group package bibles for people in other countries, or for that matter why arent you off IN another country trying to convert people.

[galeane29]

Why was the word black even brought up here?



I have nothing to prove to you. You think are entitled to something because you can read a book, call people name, place judgment all because you are a black christian father that works and tries to teach his children right? It entitles you to nothing, I expect it out of you and evey other adult that has children. Get over yourself. Jesus didn't walk around trying to make enemies, why are you???