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DtroitPunk
06-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Hello all. I have become somewhat infamous for my posts on the Catholic church, and want to help all that I can. I have found a really great resource where a Former nun compares the teachings of the Catholic church using the Catechism and other Catholic writings against the King James Bible.

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/toc.htm


Please take the time to actually read this site. I did and I see numerous places where the Catechism is CLEARLY in opposition to the Bible.


Please everyone, evaluate for yourselves. Dont be led only by tradition. Enter into a personal relationship with the savior who died for you. You can know Gods will for you and his standards for your life through his word.

kate
06-15-2007, 02:55 PM
Thanks and all but seeing as I went down the fundamentalist path for quite a while I don't need someone to show me the error of my ways. I feel the Lord did that while I was on that path and gently guided me back to where I am.

I do have a brain and can evaluate what I read, study, and understand on my own. I've read that site or one like it and it has done nothing but solidify my beliefs.

I don't need saving, thanks ;)

DtroitPunk
06-15-2007, 06:04 PM
I am happy that you are happy with your faith, but you even admitted that you dont believe the Bible is meant to be taken literally, so for you it doesnt matter which church you go to. I Am not trying to be mean or sarcastic, just stating the obvious.

Val1
06-15-2007, 06:15 PM
Gosh DP, even if you believe parts of the Bible are meant to be figurative...like say, the parables of Christ :)...it certainly does not correlate to "not caring what church you go to". How in the world did you make that conclusion?

kate
06-15-2007, 06:19 PM
I am happy that you are happy with your faith, but you even admitted that you dont believe the Bible is meant to be taken literally, so for you it doesnt matter which church you go to. I Am not trying to be mean or sarcastic, just stating the obvious.

Actually, in my reading of the Bible, it is very important which church I go to. I go to the one that best matches my understanding of the Bible. When I read it, it speaks to me in the way that I worship and in the faith that I have.

Not reading it literally does not correspond to it not mattering which church I go to. That I find mildly offensive and rude.

Just today I received a tract in the mail from a church and I find that presumptive as well and it made me a just a wee bit upset that they would presume to tell me what the best way is.

janelle
06-16-2007, 12:10 PM
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/index.htm This is the homepage of the site posted.

Thank you DP for proving to me what I had thought you were doing. Going to radical sites to find out your info. This site is so blatantly full of hatred for the Catholic Church and from what I see most other churches except those who are purely fundamentalists it is very sad. It is so sad that most fundamentalists would be sad.

They are so full of hatred they even post the wrong bible. The Catholic church follows The New American Bible which has seven more books in the Old Testament not included in the Protestant translations The NIV is a Protestant bible, not Catholic. It is a fine bible but the people who put this site up don't even know what Catholics believe.

Nice try but no jackpot.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 02:02 PM
"Thank you DP for proving to me what I had thought you were doing. Going to radical sites to find out your info. This site is so blatantly full of hatred for the Catholic Church and from what I see most other churches except those who are purely fundamentalists it is very sad. It is so sad that most fundamentalists would be sad."

Janelle...

This is so far wrong I wont even dignify it. I hate no man or religion, I will not invest the emotion and time necessary to hate. However I do have real problems with ANY person or organization that represents it/themselves as teaching religious truths with the bible that Clearly IGNORE or twist parts of the Bible. I believe that (and the bible confirms numerous times) the Bible has EVERYTHING we need to live a life pleasing to God.

janelle
06-16-2007, 02:10 PM
And for the hundreth time the Catholic Church DOES NOT DO THAT but you will only believe what these radical sites tell you. So sad, too bad.

Read Scott Hahn's book if you dare and see how someone like those who hate changes when they study and learn the truth. What they thought they knew they didn't know and they were wrong.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 02:11 PM
To the point of your choice of church not mattering. If I believe that the Bible is not literal, I can choose which parts I want to believe and interpret troublesome passages in a way that pleaes me, I can then find a church that teaches in a way that I find comfortable. Kate even said this

"I go to the one that best matches MY understanding of the Bible. When I read it, it speaks to me in the way that I worship and in the faith that I have."

And as far as taking issue with receiving a mailer or a tract? Maybe thats why so many people love the Catholic church? They dont teach or encourage the faithful to ACTIVELY share their faith with others? This is a teaching CENTRAL to the Bible. We are to share the Gospel with ALL, everyone we meet or come into contact with. We are supposed to help win souls to the lord, by sending out mailings, or visiting door to door with neighbors we are attempting to do part of our Christian duty by giving of our time, risking the mistreatment and cruelty of Non-believers to help others come to the lord. If I dont agree with a religion like the Witnesses for example, I am forced to admit that they LIVE their faith and try to witness of the same to others.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 02:19 PM
Janelle, I will say this as well, just because a web site has material that you find scandalous or hateful, doesnt mean it contains no truth.

Once again you resort to a straw man argument. This site is apparently hateful towards Catholicism, it has an agenda. So by association we cannot believe nor should we evaluate any of the claims or statements made.

The reason I liked this site was it actually takes parts of the Cathehism (which you and your husband kept directing me to study) and did a comparison.

Not liking what you read or even abhoring the reason a book or statement was wriiten, DOES NOT change the truth or falsity of the conclusions come to. Facts are facts.

janelle
06-16-2007, 02:20 PM
Then explain who Catholic missionaries, like Mother Teresa are when they go into another country? Of course, they also go to help the people who are struggling with poverty and sickness by setting up hospitals. They nourish the body along with the souls.

If you will look in different Magazines you will see ads for people to contact their local church if they want to learn more. We do not go door to door since this type of contacting people leads to backlash and hard feelings. We are there if and when they decide to come to us. That way they have a more open spirit to learn.

AND there are places like EWTN on the internet and radio programs that promote and talk about the faith. If you would seek out those places instead of these hate filled sites you would know they are out there.

Why am I posting here if I do not want to talk about my faith? Duh. LOL

janelle
06-16-2007, 02:23 PM
Janelle, I will say this as well, just because a web site has material that you find scandalous or hateful, doesnt mean it contains no truth.

Once again you resort to a straw man argument. This site is apparently hateful towards Catholicism, it has an agenda. So by association we cannot believe nor should we evaluate any of the claims or statements made.

The reason I liked this site was it actually takes parts of the Cathehism (which you and your husband kept directing me to study) and did a comparison.

Not liking what you read or even abhoring the reason a book or statement was wriiten, DOES NOT change the truth or falsity of the conclusions come to. Facts are facts.

AND TWISTED FACTS ARE TWISTED FACTS.

Val1
06-16-2007, 04:17 PM
Dpunk, I will be happy to argue points of religion with you. However, I clicked on your link and was disgusted to find such blatantly offensive anti-Catholic cartoons and slogans.

Do you seriously expect people of another faith to patronize a website that derides, mocks, and libels their faith beliefs? Can you not find a website that at least attempts to speak respectfully to and about those who have theological differences with your beliefs?

If I directed you to a site that said, "Jesus Christ is a CLOWN and his followers are all licentious, greedy, imbecilic morons! Come HERE to find the true religion!" would you enter that site with even a smattering of respect for their "presentation"? Or would you immediately think, obviously, this site knows nothing about my religion or my beliefs?

Please feel free to bring any facts or points that you would like to respectfully debate HERE. I believe most of us are not going to in any way patronize or give the slightest credence to a site that promotes its faith by slandering ours.

And i must say that the use of phrases like:

"Roman Catholic "Celibate" Priesthood is Full of Whoremongers!

"

and

"The Antichrist Slideshow

Starring: The Popes of Rome

and

The Great Whore of Revelation Chapter 17
The Roman Catholic Religion"



is not going to bring any Catholics to the table of rational discussion with you. You may indeed feel that you have incontrovertible facts about our faith that you wish to enlighten us on, but when you begin a discussion (or a website) with cartoons like the following:

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/niv.jpg

people are going to close their hearts and ears to whatever you have to say because you are not beginning a dialogue with an attempt to show any kind of understanding or common ground, you are beginning by throwing insults. Great way to convert others to your way of thinking - NOT!

Val1
06-16-2007, 04:22 PM
Or let me put it to you another way, DPunk. If I were to begin a conversation with YOU by calling you a WHORE before we ever got to a discussion of what it was I wanted to say, would you have interest in respectfully continuing to speak to me? Or would you think, "I cannot believe that person is referring to me so disrespectfully. Obviously, she thinks it is fine to belittle me and show me no common courtesy whatsoever, so I don't think I'll be continuing this conversation."

It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say. :headshake

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 07:31 PM
WHOA! First allow me to apologize. I did not search out all that was on this site, I had done a google search and started on

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/statues.htm

This page is very thoughtfully written and I couldnt help but agree. This is what I meant about facts are facts. There are clearly points where the Catholic teachings through the Catechism are not in line with the Holy Scriptures. This page did a good job of showing that.


I then clicked on back to the Catechism vs the bible and saw what I assumed would be other thoughtfully written comparisons. And in fact I was right. I did not click on the home page.

I am VERY VERY SORRY. I would never have linked anyone to a site that I knew preached such horrible intolerance. That is not the way to show people the truth according to the bible.


That being said THE FACTS ARE STILL THE FACTS. The pages on the site I was referring people too clearly lay out the teachings of the Catechism and where and why they are in opposition to the Holy Bible.


These are not twisted facts, however these people DO HAVE an unworthy agenda and are pressing it in a horrible, manner.

I am Very sorry, I truly had no idea that the people associated with this site had such ill feelings toward Catholicism. I personally absolutely do not agree with Catholicism, buddhism, ISlam, The witnesses etc etc but I DO NOT have HATE for any of these people. I wish their souls an eternity in heaven.

Once again I am sorry.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 07:55 PM
Dear VAL who said "It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say."

If you read my posts I believe you will see a person who wants to engender honest intellectual debate in order to lead people to follow the truths of the bible uncolored by tradition or outward literary influence. I have never intended to be abusive as that will not get me any further in a debate.


And VAl, I believe if you read my other posts you will see that I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence over and over again. People either ignore what I say, refuse to believe what I say or twist what I say. I use the bible to back up all of my debates on faith. But many here will not here an argument based on the bible because they dont read the bible. Others say that the bible isnt meant to be taken literally. Then you have those who say that you or I cant know the mysteries of the bible and need people smarter or better or more holy than we are to lead us to the truths in the gospel. This is really scary thinking as we have seen more than enough evidence all through history from the crusades til now that a priest isnt on average any more Holy or right with God than anyone else. In fact if you take any other category of employ and compare the statistics of say plumbers or basketball coaches and priests who abuse you see a disturbing pattern. I believe, and I believe the Bible shows that this is because they are forbidden to marry.


I have said numerous times on this thread that there are some who want to believe in things so badly that no evidence from any quarter will ever be enough to sway them from their belief.

This is not the conduct of a reasonable, intelligent person. This is not an accusation toward any one person here. If for example someone came along and told me that Jesus Christ never existed and so therefore the bible was all a joke. I would not get angry. I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. It is the only religious book in history that has been proven accurate numerous times through research and science. They have proven that cities talked about in the bible were real that certain persons were king during certain times etc etc. Archaeology has been particularly helpful in this regard. Then the dead sea scrolls also were very helpful in establishing the validity of the bible to a much further date in the past. No other book has been translated by man so many times, so faithfully.

That being said, IF someone ever could prove to me incontrovertibly that for example the King James Bible had been changed by the will of the King and did not translate from the dead sea scrolls, I would have a crisis of faith. My faith is nothing if I cannot believe that God has preserved his word.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 07:57 PM
Does anyone here have a link to an actual Catholic site where I can compare what the Catechism says as compared to the Bible?

Someone may have given me that before, I cant remember.

I feel horrible about that site I linked you guys too. But I do want to verify if the quotes from the Catechism are accurate.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 08:01 PM
This is what Janelle posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DtroitPunk
Janelle, I will say this as well, just because a web site has material that you find scandalous or hateful, doesnt mean it contains no truth.

Once again you resort to a straw man argument. This site is apparently hateful towards Catholicism, it has an agenda. So by association we cannot believe nor should we evaluate any of the claims or statements made.

The reason I liked this site was it actually takes parts of the Cathehism (which you and your husband kept directing me to study) and did a comparison.

Not liking what you read or even abhoring the reason a book or statement was wriiten, DOES NOT change the truth or falsity of the conclusions come to. Facts are facts.

AND TWISTED FACTS ARE TWISTED FACTS.

At the time that I wrote this I had no idea that the site that I had linked had such horrible things on it.

Once again I am sorry. That being said, unless they have erroneously quoted the Cathecism; there seem to be numerous places where the Catechism and the Bible dont line up.

So once again facts are facts. If the Quotes are all accurate then there has been no twisting. Just a side by side comparison.

kate
06-16-2007, 08:24 PM
DP, it's all comes down to interpretation. When I read my bible and when I look to the catechism I don't see that they dont' line up. Remember, as I stated I've been down the fundamentalist, literalist path. I don't see the things that you see or that that site see. I see it differently. I read the Bible differently. I see that it says different things than it does for you.

The thing is NEITHER of us know if the other's understanding is correct. What we do know is that our path is the one we've been led down. Some day we'll know what the TRUTH is. Until then I'm comfortable with my beliefs. I'm comfortable with the feeling that I think they are correct. I'm comfortable reading the Bible and seeing what the Church Father's saw. I'm comfortable looking to the Catechism when I am unsure about something.

I took things and broke them down some posts back. I won't be attacking each part of that site idea by idea because it frustrates me to a point where I don't feel I'm being a good follower of Christ. You are more than welcome to feel I'm misguided but I don't need your answers. I have found my own with God's help.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 09:00 PM
Kate I totally understand how you feel.
you said"DP, it's all comes down to interpretation. When I read my bible and when I look to the catechism I don't see that they dont' line up."

The point is when the Bible says Bow yourself down to NO images, Or I am the way the truth and the Life and no man comes unto the father but by me, or any other of hundreds of examples I could give you, The bible OFTEN and usually says exactly what it means and is not given to private interpretation. We are told not to try to interpret the bible but to READ It and live it. Everyone interpreting it the way they feel comfortable is what has caused all the division amongst Christians and the main reason that there are so many different denominations.

There are things in the bible that I dont agree with entirely, but when that happens I acknowledge that I am the Creation and The Creator undoubtedly knows better than I.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 09:08 PM
Then explain who Catholic missionaries, like Mother Teresa are when they go into another country? Of course, they also go to help the people who are struggling with poverty and sickness by setting up hospitals. They nourish the body along with the souls.

If you will look in different Magazines you will see ads for people to contact their local church if they want to learn more. We do not go door to door since this type of contacting people leads to backlash and hard feelings. We are there if and when they decide to come to us. That way they have a more open spirit to learn.

AND there are places like EWTN on the internet and radio programs that promote and talk about the faith. If you would seek out those places instead of these hate filled sites you would know they are out there.

Why am I posting here if I do not want to talk about my faith? Duh. LOL

OK, firstly I think Mother Theresa was a wonderful human being who believed greatly in giving of herself and helping folks. That being said I have NEVER seen where her or others like her were converting souls to Christ or leading groups in prayers of repentance. Prayers for the dying or the dead, are nice but pointless. The soul must be prepared by the blood of Christ by that persons willfull decision to follow the Lord and accept his redemption of them.

I understand your feelings about sharing faith, however it is a bit of a copout. The bible says over and over again to share your faith. If you wait for a sinner to come to you, most of the time you die waiting. From my own experience I know that often people who dont seem to want to know God, are really just waiting to find someone who can answer their questions. If a person doesnt want to hear you dont push.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 09:50 PM
The bible has loads of verses telling us to preach the word

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Some people will NEVER visit a church. Some people CANNOT visit a Church.


I cannot remember where I heard or read this but I think it is very powerful.

If you see a blind man walking towards a cliff and you do nothing to prevent him, you are guilty of his blood. If you warn him and he wont listen, you are free from your obligation. But if you do not tell him and he plunges to his death and goes to hell because noone ever shared Gods plan of Salvation with him, it is your fault.

janelle
06-16-2007, 10:33 PM
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source graven image
n. An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone.
================================================== =======
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/statues.htm
You say-----
"This page is very thoughtfully written and I couldn't help but agree. This is what I meant about facts are facts. There are clearly points where the Catholic teachings through the Catechism are not in line with the Holy Scriptures. This page did a good job of showing that."
================================================== ======
Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images. NO THEY ARE NOT. So you want me to take this site seriously when the first thing I see is so off track? This whole site is this way. Tearing down teachings they do not even understand to begin with. It will not win converts that way. They may fool uneducated people but not educated ones

janelle
06-16-2007, 11:30 PM
fun·da·men·tal·ism /ˌfʌndəˈmɛntlˌɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fuhn-duh-men-tl-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a movement in American Protestantism that arose in the early part of the 20th century in reaction to modernism and that stresses the infallibility of the Bible not only in matters of faith and morals but also as a literal historical record, holding as essential to Christian faith belief in such doctrines as the creation of the world, the virgin birth, physical resurrection, atonement by the sacrificial death of Christ, and the Second Coming.
2. the beliefs held by those in this movement.
3. strict adherence to any set of basic ideas or principles: the fundamentalism of the extreme conservatives.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: 1920–25, Americanism; fundamental + -ism]

—Related forms
fun·da·men·tal·ist, noun, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm) Pronunciation Key
n.
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.

fun'da·men'tal·ist adj. & n., fun'da·men'tal·ist'ic adj.
================================================== ========
I also looked up fundamentalism in the dictionary and it came up with this. I now see why you are so strict in your views of life. You are always right and no one else is right if they disagree. So why should anyone try to debate you? And if I agree with anything you say I am still going to hell because I am a Catholic just like so many in the other faiths. You admire the ones who go door to door spreading the gospel but they are still going to hell because they do not agree with your version of the bible.

Who do you think is going to listen to you? Who wants to be that rigid in life to take over God's domain in judging people souls, intentions, and if they go to heaven or hell? That in itself is sinful.

The pope says we cannot say who is in heaven or hell. If a person lives a good life who are we to say? Only God can judge a person.

DtroitPunk
06-16-2007, 11:41 PM
Janelle out of all on the page you latch onto this? "Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images."

WRONGO! I dont bow myself down to a family picture. That if you read the texts in their entirety is what it is all about, IDOLATRY. We are not to bow to anything but God. And No statue or man should be in the place of God. And furthermore by your definition of a graven image "An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone" A family photo doesnt fit but a statue of the Virgin Mary does.

This is again a straw man argument. You Seem to be UNABLE to actually show me any support for MANY practices of the Church that are in the Catechism, but NOT in the Bible. Any intelligent person doesnt need to be EDUCATED to see how you skirt around issues that you obviously cannot debate on their merits.

This site shows verses from the Catechism and from the bible, it is not wrong
you are.

As I said before, if the Catechism does not say what they say it does that is something completely different.

janelle
06-17-2007, 12:01 AM
I know in my heart statues are not idols. You do not believe what I say about it so who's problem is that?

So it does not matter what I say, you will tell me what I mean. So I say again why should anyone listen to you?

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 12:14 AM
Janelle says...

"I also looked up fundamentalism in the dictionary and it came up with this. I now see why you are so strict in your views of life. You are always right and no one else is right if they disagree. So why should anyone try to debate you? And if I agree with anything you say I am still going to hell because I am a Catholic just like many of the other faiths. You admire the ones who go door to door spreading the gospel but they are still going to hell because they do not agree with your version of the bible."

Ok, so once again you resort to AD HOMINEM (to the man) attacks, as you are INCAPABLE of proving me wrong on any point. Do you know why this is? It is because this isnt my belief or my idea or my random thoughts, but The word of God.

You as a Catholic CAN CAN CAN go to heaven and you know that I never said you couldnt. In fact earlier I told you that any one of any tradition or belief COULD go to heaven if they received the Lord as their savior and sincerely repented of sin.

My point wasnt that you cant be a Catholic AND a Born Again Christian, but rather that I didnt know why anyone of any faith who knew the truth of the teachings of the bible would continue attending a church that wasnt in line with the same.

Your Bible says almost exactly the same thing as mine, yours just has a few extra books.

And there is a big difference between acknowledging that someone has done SOME things correctly and admiring them. PLEASE STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!

And for the Record, I have a mohawk and typically wear black clothing I look like I should be in a band or something. I would not be welcome in many FUNDAMENTALIST churches. But I would classify myself as one I suppose just because I do believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible. Whereas you believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the pope?

I am just saying once again you WILL NOT, because you CAN NOT debate me. All you can do is hope that others wont see what you are trying to do.

You attempt to make me look like a narrow minded, fundamentalist bigot so people wont take me seriously. But I believe that most people are a little smarter than that.


Then you say...
"Who do you think is going to listen to you? Who wants to be that rigid in life to take over God's domain in judging people souls, intentions, and if they go to heaven or hell? That in itself is sinful.

The pope says we cannot say who is in heaven or hell. If a person lives a good life who are we to say? Only God can judge a person."


Okay, I hope that anyone who takes the Bible seriously will listen to me. To those who wont read it and believe it, move on.

I am not rigid in my life, I dont wear a tie, I dont worry about my cholesterol, I do read all sorts of books, go to movies, listen to music, play guitar and sing, collect comic books and toys etc etc ...

I have a pretty good life that is all the better because I do have the peace and assurance of knowing I will go to heaven when I die.

I do not judge if others are going to heaven or hell... God does that through his word. I dont know that you for example have never accepted the Lord as your personal savior and repented sincerely of all your sins. If you have you will be going to heaven, NO MATTER WHAT CHURCH YOU GO TO.

But when I see a pedophile, or an active homosexual I dont judge that they are going to hell GOD does. The bible is quite clear that you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven if you are guilty of unforgiven sin. And you are not sorry for something that you have no intention of stopping.

Oh, and the POPE says? well then YOU at least know it to be true. The Pope is just a man, and isnt the church making pronouncements on who is in heaven when they hand out sainthood?

And who lives a good life? DO you? If you really believe that the good you have done outweighs the bad you are either highly delusional or a liar.

The bible says that all our righteousness is as filthy rags to the lord. And also that salvation is not by works so no man can boast.

I argue away what you say using the bible, you never argue away anything I say.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 12:18 AM
I started this thread, If you cannot do any better than this..

"I know in my heart statues are not idols. You do not believe what I say about it so who's problem is that?

So it does not matter what I say, you will tell me what I mean. So I say again why should anyone listen to you?"

Please give up so that others might have a REAL conversation.

I believe that you believe that they are not idols, and trust me I would NEVER presume to know what you mean.

And people should listen to GOD not me. It just so happens that MOST of what I am saying I can actually give SCRIPTURE to support.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 12:24 AM
Janelles statements are becoming increasingly similar to the childs who insists there is a monster in her closet. You try turning on the lights, you open the closet and you explain that there is no real such thing as monsters, to no avail she KNOWS there is a monster.

Little things like the truth dont matter, I guess.

We both think that we are right, the difference is Janelle cant even EXPLAIN to anyone here exactly why she believes what she believes.

I make a statement of faith or belief and I back it up with GODS word. When I cant I usually say up front, this is just my opinion led by my understanding of the word.

Val1
06-17-2007, 05:39 AM
DPunk, first, thank you for the apology regarding the site. I truly appreciate your distancing yourself from some of the really hatemongering comments there and clarifying that you did not share THOSE beliefs. :)

I will agree with you that there can be sites which hold valid information but the manner of presentation makes the delivery of those facts distasteful to the listener (I personally feel that way about anti-abortion sites which hit you in the face first with dead baby pictures - factual indeed, but most people are not going to get by the awful graphics to give even half a listen to any pro-life message).

Since I am new to the site, I don't plan on going back to read all your prior posts, but would be happy to start fresh at square one with you on the debate topics.

Just to clarifiy, my comments about "rude obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage" were directed towards the wordings in the site you linked to. Forgive me, but when someone links to a site like that without addressing the hate speech, a new reader is going to think the poster shares those views. I'm glad you've said that you do not, and I am happy to debate with you with a clean slate. :)

Today is a busy one for me, but I will try to address a few points further down and most definitely will be back on Monday!


Dear VAL who said "It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say."

If you read my posts I believe you will see a person who wants to engender honest intellectual debate in order to lead people to follow the truths of the bible uncolored by tradition or outward literary influence. I have never intended to be abusive as that will not get me any further in a debate.


And VAl, I believe if you read my other posts you will see that I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence over and over again. People either ignore what I say, refuse to believe what I say or twist what I say. I use the bible to back up all of my debates on faith. But many here will not here an argument based on the bible because they dont read the bible. Others say that the bible isnt meant to be taken literally. Then you have those who say that you or I cant know the mysteries of the bible and need people smarter or better or more holy than we are to lead us to the truths in the gospel. This is really scary thinking as we have seen more than enough evidence all through history from the crusades til now that a priest isnt on average any more Holy or right with God than anyone else. In fact if you take any other category of employ and compare the statistics of say plumbers or basketball coaches and priests who abuse you see a disturbing pattern. I believe, and I believe the Bible shows that this is because they are forbidden to marry.


I have said numerous times on this thread that there are some who want to believe in things so badly that no evidence from any quarter will ever be enough to sway them from their belief.

This is not the conduct of a reasonable, intelligent person. This is not an accusation toward any one person here. If for example someone came along and told me that Jesus Christ never existed and so therefore the bible was all a joke. I would not get angry. I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. It is the only religious book in history that has been proven accurate numerous times through research and science. They have proven that cities talked about in the bible were real that certain persons were king during certain times etc etc. Archaeology has been particularly helpful in this regard. Then the dead sea scrolls also were very helpful in establishing the validity of the bible to a much further date in the past. No other book has been translated by man so many times, so faithfully.

That being said, IF someone ever could prove to me incontrovertibly that for example the King James Bible had been changed by the will of the King and did not translate from the dead sea scrolls, I would have a crisis of faith. My faith is nothing if I cannot believe that God has preserved his word.

Val1
06-17-2007, 05:50 AM
DPunk, here is my belief regarding graven images. A graven image is ANYTHING representative of another person or animal or the like. The photos in my wallet are graven images. The statue at the Lincoln Memorial is a graven image. Totem poles are graven images. Statues of Mary, pictures of Jesus hanging on the wall, etc. are graven images.

We are told by the Bible not to worship graven images. We do not. I do not know any Catholic who thinks that the crucifix on the wall is REALLY Jesus, or that when we kneel down to pray (to GOD, the almighty in heaven, NOT to the image of Jesus that we may display in our house - that is JUST an image much like the other pictures on our wall), we are not "worshipping an object". We do not mistake the Living God for a piece of marble or plaster or photographic paper.

I know that many Protestants do not kneel in church (or elsewhere perhaps?)when they pray. We kneel and bow as a sign of respect to God.

One great difference between our faiths is that of transubstantiation. We believe that during communion we are receiving the actual body and blood of Christ. That is present in the form of the Eucharist in the tabernacle of our churches. As a sign of respect, we kneel when we cross the altar and during the mass because THAT - the eucharist - IS Jesus to us.

The pictures, statues, etc. - they are decorations. No more, no less. We do not "worship" them.

Now, if you want to get into a discussion of transubstantiation, or of our reverence for Mary, or an off shoot topic, feel free to start a separate thread. But we do not worship idols. We do decorate our homes and places of worship with pictures of Jesus, and also of other religious figures whom we have respect for. We do not worship these, however.


Janelle out of all on the page you latch onto this? "Ok, I click into the site you posted and the first thing is so wrong in it's interpretation. Statues are not GRAVEN IMAGES. If they are then all the pictures of your family you have in your house are graven images."

WRONGO! I dont bow myself down to a family picture. That if you read the texts in their entirety is what it is all about, IDOLATRY. We are not to bow to anything but God. And No statue or man should be in the place of God. And furthermore by your definition of a graven image "An idol or fetish carved in wood or stone" A family photo doesnt fit but a statue of the Virgin Mary does.

This is again a straw man argument. You Seem to be UNABLE to actually show me any support for MANY practices of the Church that are in the Catechism, but NOT in the Bible. Any intelligent person doesnt need to be EDUCATED to see how you skirt around issues that you obviously cannot debate on their merits.

This site shows verses from the Catechism and from the bible, it is not wrong
you are.

As I said before, if the Catechism does not say what they say it does that is something completely different.

janelle
06-17-2007, 08:27 AM
DP, what do you do when you see the city of Washington and see all the statures in the city or any city where statues are prominently displayed? Do you jump to the conclusion they are idols and being worshiped?

How do you feel when someone knells to pray? Do you assume they have some evil intent instead of reverence for God?

For some reason you have a grudge against the Catholic Church, I know you will say you do not but when one attacks it and it's teachings all the time and will not stop for anything then I sense a grudge as I see one in the sites you recommend. One cannot talk to someone with a grudge against something. I know, I know you will say I am wrong. LOL

My husband has quoted scripture numerous times and he is wrong because----oh I don't know---you just say he is wrong. I won't quote scripture but stay on the everyday worship and I am wrong. Anyone who gets into a debate with you will be wrong I fear. And that is my ONLY fear, no monsters but that one.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 12:55 PM
ONCE again, you ignore all the points I make... Technically yes, any statue is a sort of Graven image, but Statues of the virgin Mary are CREATED with the knowledge that people WILL be bowing to them.

Most memorial statues will never have anyone bowing to them. I do not doubt that MOST catholics feel they are not Worshipping by bowing to a statue, but it is a sign of obeisance.

Notice that in Exodus 20:5 there is no distinction made in WHY we bow, we are just told NOT to bow to any images.
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God"

I honestly do not have a grudge against the Catholic Church, I do have a problem with it, just as I do ANY religion that teaches any doctrine other than the Gospel of Christ. See Romans 16:17-18

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

And actually I QUOTED what verses your husband used and PROVED that they were taken out of context to support the confession, when in fact they had nothing to do with confession of sins to a priest for absolution.

Keep on pretending that I am the one being irrational.

And I do sometimes kneel in prayer or during an altar call at Church, but when we kneel practically all the time it cant help but lose some of its impact.

For many people it has become more tradition than a heartfelt natural extension of the reverance we have for God.

Janelle please realize that almost every time you post, you prove me correct.

I say that you CANT debate me and you dont, but you say its because I wont believe anything you say.

Just like when you pretend you dont know why I questioned the verses your husband used. I have asked everyone here to show me where I have been wrong even once BY THE BIBLE and so far noone has.

But unlike you, at least some of the Catholics here like VAL1 are willing to try to use reason and intellect to debate our faiths.

Val1
06-17-2007, 03:12 PM
ONCE again, you ignore all the points I make... Technically yes, any statue is a sort of Graven image, but Statues of the virgin Mary are CREATED with the knowledge that people WILL be bowing to them.

DPunk, I do not know anyone who BOWS to a statue of Mary. We do have kneelers in front of statues of her and of Saint Joseph, when we ask for intercession. We often kneel when we pray, in front of the altar, in front of a cross, in front of our beds at night. My daughters kneel down at the kitchen table when they do prayer before meals!

They are not worshipping the kitchen table. ;)

Did you know that we do not pray TO Mary? We ask her (or any other saint, or any person at all, living or dead) to pray FOR US to GOD. When we kneel in prayer we are not showing obeisance to Mary, but to GOD, the recipient of ALL our prayers!


Notice that in Exodus 20:5 there is no distinction made in WHY we bow, we are just told NOT to bow to any images.
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God"

We are not bowing to her image, nor to her up in heaven, we are kneeling as a sign of respect when praying.


"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple."

Actually, the Protestant church divided from the Catholic church, not the other way around. ;)

I've not read all your previous discussions with Janelle, but I am happy to try and explain my understanding of our practices with you, DPunk, if you have specific questions.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 03:36 PM
Val1 Thank you for your reasoned attempt to explain some of the practices of the average Catholic.

I admit that I have less than a perfect understanding of what the average catholic really practices and believes.

That being said there are still some difficulties.. I understand what you say about the prayers of the saints and asking for intercession, but there is just no support for this in the bible. No where in the bible are we told to pray to or through anyone but Jesus or God the father. There is no need as the saved are to be in a personal relationship with Jesus, and indwelt bythe spirit. Because of this we can comfortably pray directly to God the father.

And when you read "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. "

It is referring to any person or organization that trys to teach doctrines contrary to the ones that Jesus taught the apostles. It has nothing to do with the protestants splitting from Catholicism.

I appreciate your interest in actually having an INTELLIGENT thoughtful conversation, without resorting to sarcasm and personal attacks.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 03:40 PM
Val1 I would really like to know by what decree subordinate officials of the church are to bow themselves to and kiss the rings of higher officials? Or by what authority the higher officials of the church believe that this is warranted or appropriate?

I am not trying to be contentious, only to get someone who is actually knowledgeable in Catholicism to help me understand some of the practices that seem to be against The Bible.

Thanks in advance.

DtroitPunk
06-17-2007, 03:41 PM
And by the way to EVERYONE here.

I hope you read my explanation for the link I put on here before, if not please go back and read it.

I REAAAALLY didnt mean to offend anyone, And VAL1 thank you for acknowledgeing my apology.

Val1
06-17-2007, 05:00 PM
Dpunk, all valid questions - I'm about to go for my nightly run then back to clean up the Father's Day Party mess at my house, but rest assured I will be back tomorrow to address your questions, specifically those on intercession - as far as the kissing of the ring, since that is not something most Catholics ever encounter, I will need to do some research on that practice myself. :)

Val1
06-18-2007, 05:13 AM
DPunk, a brief note on intercessory prayers. We always always direct our prayers TO GOD, however, we also ask others to pray for us, correct? If we need only to address God ourselves, why would we ever ask others to pray for us? They are unneeded mediators, right?

No! We ask because we appreciate others also placing our petitions and requests and prayers before God.

42:10. The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.


There is Biblical precedence for the angels praying for us:
"And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem . . . and the Lord answered the angel . . . good words, comfortable words" (Zechariah 1:12, 13). and

"the angel Raphael says: "When thou didst pray with tears . . . I offered thy prayer to the Lord" (Tob., xii, 12)

We also have mention of the saints praying for us in Revelations:
"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Revelation 8:3-4).

If we know that God listens to the prayers of our friends, of the angels, the saints, etc., why should we not ask them to pray for us? Yes, we may also pray directly to God or through Jesus, but given the Biblical examples above, there is certainly evidence of the Lord hearing the prayers of intercessories on our behalf.

Will come back to address your other points later today!

LI Mama
06-18-2007, 05:32 AM
We bow to our officals as a sign of respect. Much like people in Asian cultures bow to one another. They aren't worshipping each other, it's merely considered respectful.

Val1
06-18-2007, 05:44 AM
Yes, much like people bowing to the queen because she is the head of state (AND the earthly leader of the Anglican Church), people kiss the pope's ring as a sign of respect. BTW, you do not have to do this if you meet the Pope, Catholics do it as a sign of respect, not of subjugation or worship.

The Fisherman's Ring is a symbol of his office - in olden times it was his SEAL used to imprint in wax on church documents and correspondence, much as a king used to do in medieval times. but it ceased being used for that purpose in the 19th century. An actual seal is now used, but the ring, as part of the tradition, is still given to the incoming Pope as part of his office just as another symbol of his leadership role in the church.

It is not a church mandate or part of our "worship" service that one must kiss the Pope's ring.

ahippiechic
06-18-2007, 11:07 AM
I don't know a lot about the Catholic faith, but I was always under the impression that the bowing, or kneeling was out of respect, not worship.

As I mentioned in another thread here, I am christian, but we do celebrate nature and the seasons and when I kneel before the alter in my home, and pray, I am praying to God, the Great Father, not the leaves, branches etc that may be on the alter. There is a big difference in celebrating or showing respect for something and in worshipping it.

Also, is there some where online that I can read those books of the The New American Bible, that aren't included in the KJV? I have read them before, but it's been several years.

Val1
06-18-2007, 12:01 PM
Also, is there some where online that I can read those books of the The New American Bible, that aren't included in the KJV? I have read them before, but it's been several years.

Ahippiechic, you can find the complete NAB here:
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ :)

ahippiechic
06-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Ahippiechic, you can find the complete NAB here:
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/ :)

Thank you.

DtroitPunk
06-18-2007, 03:14 PM
We also have mention of the saints praying for us in Revelations:
"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Revelation 8:3-4).

I am Sorry VAL1 I have to respectfully disagree, this verse is actually talking about ALL the prayers of ALL the saints that have been and are at the time of judgement and it doesnt say that they are offered up for us. So when you pray that Gods will be done and his work be completed...YOUR prayer will go into that censer for the appropriate time.

This is very common in the Catholic church that they use as scriptural support a liberal interpretation of a scripture instead of taking the word in context as is where possible. Obviously prophetic statements and parables are open to some interpretation, but most of the Bible says exactly what it means.

Val1
06-18-2007, 04:18 PM
DPunk, we are part of the communion of saints, which we define as "the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head."

I think we have a bit more in agreement on the subject than it may appear.

DtroitPunk
06-18-2007, 06:02 PM
the souls in purgatory?

HMMM there is just one more example of how Catholic teaching seems to stray from the bible. MANY MANY times we are told that to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, or like when Jesus said to the criminal who believed, You will be with me this day in paradise.

The whole concept of purgatory is a creation of the Catholic church designed to bilk money from peasants who didnt know that prayers for the dead were pointless, as their eternal reward or punishment had been settled at the moment of death.

I realize that the wikipedia isnt always completely factual but they have a pretty good page on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory

DtroitPunk
06-18-2007, 06:12 PM
And I just have to point this out http://www.ucg.org/commentary/abandons.htm

This page acts like Now that the Pope says so that the souls of infants will go to heaven after 800 years in limbo. Not for nothin, but regardless of what the pope says now and what the Catholic church has said for the last 800 years. Babies who died with or without baptism ARE in heaven.

This is just one more example of how the church changes their minds, first priests could marry than they couldnt and now they are considering ordaining married priests again. They created Limbo and purgatory, then kill limbo and there is discussion of whether they will kill purgatory as well.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Governments change policies at will to appeal to the most people. Which seems to make Catholicism more like a Government than a Religion.

Please keep in mind that this page is from the united church of god or some such and I cannot vouch for nor do I agree with everything on its sites. I just thought that the info on limbo was pertinent.

Val1
06-18-2007, 07:17 PM
Will come back tomorrow to address this further with you, DPunk, but that is where theologically we differ. I trust in the MERCY of God to welcome infants into Heaven, but I would never speak FOR God and claim that i know in any way who IS in Heaven and who is not.

Will be back on the Limbo issue - it was never a mandated Catholic teaching either way, though the possibilities of limbo were discussed by many church theologians..

ETA - Never trust Wikipedia, the encyclopedia written by amateurs. :) Some of their stuff is factual, other is skewed opinionism, but it's a crapshoot. If you want the accurate viewpoint, go to the source of the material. As has been suggested to you, try the Catechism if you want the Catholic viewpoint with its biblical foundations explained.

If I was asking questions of a Muslim, I wouldn't go to any generic book of comparative religion, I'd go to the Muslim source and its leading teachers.

DtroitPunk
06-18-2007, 07:47 PM
I understand what you are saying here"I trust in the MERCY of God to welcome infants into Heaven, but I would never speak FOR God and claim that i know in any way who IS in Heaven and who is not."

But by the Bible we can KNOW that God is righteous and will always therefore do right, for those who are unable to make free will choices that result in sin: there is no question in my mind but that a perfect God wouldnt send people to hell who have no ability to choose. When we are offered a temptation and we KNOW that to indulge is wrong and we do it anyway, this is sin. If a person is truly incapable of knowing right from wrong how can they be guilty of sin?

I am not speaking for god that seems to be the purview of the UBER bosses in Rome, they repeatedly make pronouncements as if they speak for God.

But, as for other individuals, I can know by Gods word that certain people dont go to heaven. So if I see a person who is an active homosexual for example I can confidently declare that if they die as they are now, they will NOT go to heaven. This is from Gods word, so therefore I am not speaking for him only sharing with that person what GOD has said.

And I understand what you are saying about getting info from the horses mouth as it were, but the little bit of the Catechism I have read didnt have clear biblical support listed along with it, if there is a resource that shows both I will use it. But I just wont study the Catechism on its own.

And as far as the wikipedia goes I admitted that it is often not the most trustworthy site, that being said from the dictionary you can see that limbo and purgatory are almost exclusively Catholic concepts.

please see this link to limbo http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/L0171900.html

and this to purgatory http://www.bartleby.com/61/80/P0668000.html

Val1
06-19-2007, 09:30 AM
Hi DPunk,

Just to let you know I am excedingly frustrated right now. I have been typing a lengthy response to your last post for the last 45 minutes and when I accidentally forwarded to another site for a reference, my entire post got eaten.

:tearhair :cry :smashputer

This has happened to me once before when replying to you, and just now I am too aggrevated to type it all again. Will return tonight or tomorrow for another try.

Has anyone else had issues that when they hit the back button the computer just glitches and won't return? When I did, my post was GONE before I could hit send. :cry In any case, I'll be back!!!!

DtroitPunk
06-19-2007, 11:43 AM
I totally understand it has happened to me once before as well...It sucks hard and you always feel like you said it better the first time. Sorry.