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View Full Version : Starbuck 'cup quote'.... offensive ?



Jolie Rouge
06-13-2007, 09:58 PM
Michelle Incanno says she was a Starbucks addict, buying beans and coffee drinks frequently. The Springboro, Ohio, woman recently got a cup of joe at her neighborhood outlet when she noticed something new on her cup: a quotation that, Starbucks says, is designed to "collect different viewpoints and spur discussion." The company invites replies on its web site. The quote on Incanno's cup read:


"Why in moments of crisis do we ask God for strength and help? As cognitive beings, why would we ask something that may well be a figment of our imaginations for guidance? Why not search inside ourselves for the power to overcome? After all, we are strong enough to cause most of the catastrophes we need to endure."

Incanno was outraged. "I was so offended by that," she said. "I just want coffee." She says she won't return to Starbucks. (Dayton Daily News)

Heidi
06-13-2007, 10:04 PM
I was just telling my husband yesterday how upset I was about a Starbucks cup I got. The whole quote on my cup was in spanish. No translation or anything. I understand that "quotes do not reflect the opinions of Starbucks", yadda yadda yadda, but they should at least do some more thinking before putting them into print.

LI Mama
06-14-2007, 06:32 AM
Eh, I can't get worked up about it. Free speech and all that jazz.

kate
06-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Yeah, while I don't agree with the quote, I can't see getting my hackles up about it. Starbucks has many controversial quotes because they get conversations going. The point behind the quotes is great and I think they raise some interesting questions.

freeby4me
06-14-2007, 07:01 AM
Why not just have little coffee cups printed all over the cups instead?? Sheesh!

kate
06-14-2007, 07:18 AM
Why not just have little coffee cups printed all over the cups instead?? Sheesh!

Because part of the Starbucks brand is to question, to do things out of the ordinary, to create a discussion. None of that is going to be done with little coffee cups on a the cup.

freeby4me
06-14-2007, 09:00 AM
Because part of the Starbucks brand is to question, to do things out of the ordinary, to create a discussion. None of that is going to be done with little coffee cups on a the cup.

OHH haha@me. We dont have a StarBucks around here so I've never been to one. Guess I shouldnt post about what I dont know LOL

ahippiechic
06-14-2007, 09:59 AM
I don't mind the quotes either, I see quotes I don't agree with everyday. They're usually a good discussion starter, some of my firends and I will call each other and talk about a quote we got on a cup. So I think it's cool.

Bubblescc
06-14-2007, 12:37 PM
Yeah, while I don't agree with the quote, I can't see getting my hackles up about it. Starbucks has many controversial quotes because they get conversations going. The point behind the quotes is great and I think they raise some interesting questions.

Kate you better sit down for this


ITA!! lol.........

Berkley69
06-14-2007, 02:33 PM
Well at least Starbucks has the balls to say something like this :star:

Karen5111
06-14-2007, 02:47 PM
Hmm, funny that "freedom of speech" is always on the side of the UNBELIEVER.Even our kids cant mention "God" in yearbooks, at graduations, etc. Where is that "freedom of speech" Believers are part of the new "dont tell" policy. As it states it is a figment of imagination, I would think that is the case. As a believer, I would rather die and be wrong than be an unbeliever and die and be wrong. My Bible states that if we deny God here on earth, He will also deny us in Heaven. The alternatives doesnt sound like where I want to put my Happy Feet. I would be offended by either cup ( I want my message in ENGLISH too) and would refuse to pay for it if served that way and would let them know why. MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Coming from a previous STARBUCKS addict here in Starbucksville near Seattle. Karen

janelle
06-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Ok, here is what you can do that would be funny. Take a black marker with you and scratch out the quote if you don't like it. After you buy a cup it is yours to do with as you want. I wouldn't say do this if it is on their wall but it is your cup so your choice to do with as you want. :rofl:

kate
06-14-2007, 02:49 PM
Well at least Starbucks has the balls to say something like this :star:

Well technically Starbucks isn't saying it as it isn't the words of the company AND their is that pesky disclaimer. They have had other quotes that deal with faith however.

It isn't as if it's been one-sided against the religious or for those who are not.

kate
06-14-2007, 02:55 PM
Hmm, funny that "freedom of speech" is always on the side of the UNBELIEVER.Even our kids cant mention "God" in yearbooks, at graduations, etc. Where is that "freedom of speech"

Uh, no it's not. No, those things cannot be produced BY THE SCHOOL because of that pesky church/state issue. I mean we all want our children to go to a theocratic school right. So you'd be fine if they started preaching Muslim, Buddhist, or Hindu values as well right?


Believers are part of the new "dont tell" policy.

I'm assuming you are an American by the beginning of your post and I'm baffled because I've never had to "not tell" that I'm a Christian. I was never persecuted in school for proclaiming my faith. The persecution complex is large for some Christians and I have yet to figure out why.



I would be offended by either cup ( I want my message in ENGLISH too) and would refuse to pay for it if served that way and would let them know why. MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Coming from a previous STARBUCKS addict here in Starbucksville near Seattle. Karen

So it's ok for you to exercise your freedom of speech but those whose quotes have made it onto the Starbucks cups can't have that same freedom. There have been faith quotes in the past that aren't against religion, you do realize that right.

LI Mama
06-14-2007, 04:36 PM
Hmm, funny that "freedom of speech" is always on the side of the UNBELIEVER.Even our kids cant mention "God" in yearbooks, at graduations, etc. Where is that "freedom of speech" Believers are part of the new "dont tell" policy. As it states it is a figment of imagination, I would think that is the case. As a believer, I would rather die and be wrong than be an unbeliever and die and be wrong. My Bible states that if we deny God here on earth, He will also deny us in Heaven. The alternatives doesnt sound like where I want to put my Happy Feet. I would be offended by either cup ( I want my message in ENGLISH too) and would refuse to pay for it if served that way and would let them know why. MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Coming from a previous STARBUCKS addict here in Starbucksville near Seattle. Karen

First off, I am a believer. I'm a devout Catholic. Secondly, who says our children can't mention God? It's all over the yearbooks here, and in the walkways of my son's public school and the public library from the 'buy a brick' campaigns. Sounds to me like the "believers" where you live aren't fighting for their rights.

Karen5111
06-14-2007, 07:30 PM
I did NOT say they should not have the freedom to put what they want on their cups, after all this is still America. What I am saying is that I also have the freedom not to drink out of a cup that would say something I disagree with. How I spend my money is MY FREEDOM CHOICE , and Tullys also makes a very good latte. It is my private boycott and we still have that right.
Regarding the schools, here seniors were told if they mention God during their speeches, they would not receive their diploma. Is this not a "dont tell policy"?
A christian teen group that met afterschool in the multi purpose room was told to "move it off campus". And you asked how would I like it if other religions, ie Hindu was taught. It ALREADY is here. My neighbors kindergardener has daily YOGA meditation. Im not talking about exercises. They have to choose a Mantra, or say M-m-m-m in a quiet rythem. That is part of the HINDU religion, and the mantra is a prayer to a universal being within you. This is mandatory in this public school class. Yet, teens cannot meet AFTER school on school grounds. Is this treating all beliefs the same??
Regarding the cup, can you imagine the UPROAR from the ACLU and lawyers if the cup called Buddhism, Islamic faith, or Hinduism a "fabrication"---it would file a lawsuit against Starbucks for discrimination. Now, are all beliefs being treated the same?
Now if you will REREAD what I originally wrote, I did NOT in any way say I would deny them the right to put whatever they like on their cup. I dont know where you got that!! I just said, I have the freedom of speech still to say I dont like it, and to buy my coffee elsewhere. I also have a private Michael Moore and Jayne Fonda boycott going on . My RIGHT. And I dont buy Strysand music anymore. MY RIGHT too. Its called conscience and being true to my value system. If yours is different, follow your own path.. Its what makes our country uniquely great.

DBackFan
06-14-2007, 08:04 PM
I did NOT say they should not have the freedom to put what they want on their cups, after all this is still America. What I am saying is that I also have the freedom not to drink out of a cup that would say something I disagree with. How I spend my money is MY FREEDOM CHOICE , and Tullys also makes a very good latte. It is my private boycott and we still have that right.
Regarding the schools, here seniors were told if they mention God during their speeches, they would not receive their diploma. Is this not a "dont tell policy"?
A christian teen group that met afterschool in the multi purpose room was told to "move it off campus". And you asked how would I like it if other religions, ie Hindu was taught. It ALREADY is here. My neighbors kindergardener has daily YOGA meditation. Im not talking about exercises. They have to choose a Mantra, or say M-m-m-m in a quiet rythem. That is part of the HINDU religion, and the mantra is a prayer to a universal being within you. This is mandatory in this public school class. Yet, teens cannot meet AFTER school on school grounds. Is this treating all beliefs the same??
Regarding the cup, can you imagine the UPROAR from the ACLU and lawyers if the cup called Buddhism, Islamic faith, or Hinduism a "fabrication"---it would file a lawsuit against Starbucks for discrimination. Now, are all beliefs being treated the same?
Now if you will REREAD what I originally wrote, I did NOT in any way say I would deny them the right to put whatever they like on their cup. I dont know where you got that!! I just said, I have the freedom of speech still to say I dont like it, and to buy my coffee elsewhere. I also have a private Michael Moore and Jayne Fonda boycott going on . My RIGHT. And I dont buy Strysand music anymore. MY RIGHT too. Its called conscience and being true to my value system. If yours is different, follow your own path.. Its what makes our country uniquely great.


:congrats: :congrats: :congrats:

LI Mama
06-15-2007, 05:35 AM
I did NOT say they should not have the freedom to put what they want on their cups, after all this is still America. What I am saying is that I also have the freedom not to drink out of a cup that would say something I disagree with. How I spend my money is MY FREEDOM CHOICE , and Tullys also makes a very good latte. It is my private boycott and we still have that right.
Regarding the schools, here seniors were told if they mention God during their speeches, they would not receive their diploma. Is this not a "dont tell policy"?
A christian teen group that met afterschool in the multi purpose room was told to "move it off campus". And you asked how would I like it if other religions, ie Hindu was taught. It ALREADY is here. My neighbors kindergardener has daily YOGA meditation. Im not talking about exercises. They have to choose a Mantra, or say M-m-m-m in a quiet rythem. That is part of the HINDU religion, and the mantra is a prayer to a universal being within you. This is mandatory in this public school class. Yet, teens cannot meet AFTER school on school grounds. Is this treating all beliefs the same??
Regarding the cup, can you imagine the UPROAR from the ACLU and lawyers if the cup called Buddhism, Islamic faith, or Hinduism a "fabrication"---it would file a lawsuit against Starbucks for discrimination. Now, are all beliefs being treated the same?
Now if you will REREAD what I originally wrote, I did NOT in any way say I would deny them the right to put whatever they like on their cup. I dont know where you got that!! I just said, I have the freedom of speech still to say I dont like it, and to buy my coffee elsewhere. I also have a private Michael Moore and Jayne Fonda boycott going on . My RIGHT. And I dont buy Strysand music anymore. MY RIGHT too. Its called conscience and being true to my value system. If yours is different, follow your own path.. Its what makes our country uniquely great.

I'll say it again, the "believers" in your area aren't fighting for their rights. If my son was told he couldn't mention God, I'd be at the school in a flash, with my lawyer, if necessary. Ditto the Christian teen group. We have to fight for what's right.

LI Mama
06-15-2007, 07:30 AM
On the way to the market I realized I didn't address the Yoga thing. If that was my child, and having them do yoga bothered me, they wouldn't do it. The only thing that is mandatory in a public school classroom is what you let them tell you is mandatory.

I'd send my son to school with his Bible and/or his Rosary, and inform his teacher he'd be spending yoga time in prayer. I triple dog dare them to argue with me. Want to guess who would win?

LI Mama
06-15-2007, 07:38 AM
A couple of quotes I pulled from the Starbuck's website:

Darwinism’s impact on traditional social values has not been as benign as its advocates would like us to believe. Despite the efforts of its modern defenders to distance themselves from its baleful social consequences, Darwinism’s connection with eugenics, abortion and racism is a matter of historical record. And the record is not pretty.

-- Dr. Jonathan Wells
Biologist and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design.


In reality hell is not such an intention of God as it is an invention of man. God is love and people are precious. Authentic truth is not so much taught or learned as it is remembered. Somewhere in your pre-incarnate consciousness you were loved absolutely because you were. Loved absolutely, and in reality, you still are! Remember who you are!

-- Bishop Carlton Pearson
Author, speaker, spiritual leader and recording artist.

janelle
06-15-2007, 11:58 AM
Do we get to chose which cup we get? I want one that refects what I believe.

Now that would put the workers out trying to find one I like. I think they would have to do it though. The customer comes first.

"Say, I don't like what is on this cup will you please get me another one?"

If we all do that, those quote cups won't last long. HEEHEE

KitaKat
06-18-2007, 01:19 AM
:shrug Is Starbucks a coffee house where you hang around and sit on couches and such talking? If so, I think they are just trying to spark conversation to keep customers talking and buying more coffee. That said, this is coming from someone who drinks hardly any coffee (maybe 5 cups a year :wow) and has never been in a coffeehouse except when watching friends over the TV while sitting on my couch in the living room. :lol

Hey, maybe that isn't the problem at all! Maybe, just maybe... EVERYONE is so :drool ADDICTED to the coffee, so much so... they just don't care. :rolling
:kidding (This is only joking everyone)

:proud:I'm am a serious Southern Sweet Iced Tea addict, I drink it all day long from my own making and its gooo....oood! :agree

Val1
06-18-2007, 04:53 AM
I have no problem with Starbucks putting whatever quotes on their cups (I wouldn't pay four bucks for a cup of coffee even if I drank the stuff, so I have other issues with them, but that's neither here nor there! ;) )

If I got a cup that had what I considered an offensive slogan on it, I would have no problem with A) asking the server for a different cup to pour my drink in and chucking the old one, B) writing to Starbucks to say I didn't appreciate the quote and it cost them an extra cup so I could swap it out, or C), boycotting the company if I chose to do so.

If I find something about a company offensive, I don't patronize them. One of the reasons I don't shop at Abercrombie and Fitch. Starbucks would get put into the same "I'll keep my money and let you know why you're not getting it" category, and if enough people did the same, perhaps they would reconsider their "edgy" quotes. If they don't, at least I made my viewpoint heard.

YankeeMary
06-18-2007, 04:54 AM
I can't imagine having no other worries in this world, except what was printed on the side of disposable cup. As adults by the time we are old enough to read and buy coffee, I am fairly sure we alreadyl know who we are and what we stand for. I can't imagine a cup influencing me on anything, let alone my faith. I would never ever say a person, or company couldn't put XYZ on their own product, whether I believe it or not. It is their own right, just like I want to keep my rights. I see tshirts that have filth written on them, I read them shake my head and continue on, never would I even think, how dare them wear something that I don't agree with. I see cars all the time with Bush bumper stickers, I don't think they should be forced to remove them because I don't like bush. I go into the "Christian" book store (I call it the Christian book store because I can buy Christian items) they also sell all types of different religions in there, that I do not "agree" with, yet I still shop there. I am a Christian, not Catholic, yet they have a whole corner dedicated to the Catholics, should I not shop there because I do not "agree" with the Catholic ways? They also sell the Quran (however it is spelled).

janelle
06-19-2007, 12:52 AM
But after you buy the cup of coffee the cup becomes yours. If you don't agree with wearing an offensive shirt or buying things you don't agree with to put on your car then you have the right to say something when you buy the cup.

I don't go to Starbucks but have a friend who is very religious and goes there a lot so I need to ask her how she feels about it.

YankeeMary
06-19-2007, 04:28 AM
But after you buy the cup of coffee the cup becomes yours. If you don't agree with wearing an offensive shirt or buying things you don't agree with to put on your car then you have the right to say something when you buy the cup.

I don't go to Starbucks but have a friend who is very religious and goes there a lot so I need to ask her how she feels about it.

Why? I can't imagine going up to the cashier and saying I don't like what is printed on my cup. Like this poor cashier has anything to do with it. Heck, I imagine they probably don't even know there were sayings on the cup. Seems to me it is silly that there is nothing better to complain about besides sayings on the side of a disposable cup.

Val1
06-19-2007, 07:04 AM
I wouldn't expect the cashier to be responsible for who printed it on the cup, but I would ask her for a new cup. If she didn't feel comfortable giving me one, then I write to the company and tell them why I'm not visiting their store anymore. Simple, and the cashier is not in trouble for what she can't control.

(Honestly, I'd likely quit buying coffee there before asking for a new cup, but if it took me by surprise, I probably would ask for a swap out.)

janelle
06-20-2007, 09:22 AM
I wouldn't expect the cashier to be responsible for who printed it on the cup, but I would ask her for a new cup. If she didn't feel comfortable giving me one, then I write to the company and tell them why I'm not visiting their store anymore. Simple, and the cashier is not in trouble for what she can't control.

(Honestly, I'd likely quit buying coffee there before asking for a new cup, but if it took me by surprise, I probably would ask for a swap out.)

ITA

cSoReNSoN
06-20-2007, 05:08 PM
haha It's just a disposable coffee cup! I think there are more pertinent matters consuming our world, than the writing on a disposable coffee cup. I'm a Vanilla Bean frap girl, so I don't get the cups with writing on them. Though it wouldn't concern me what was written on my cup as I have more important affairs to occupy my mind......

Val1
06-20-2007, 06:41 PM
I think that we are responsible for the messages we choose to put out. If Starbucks suddenly decided to put a racist or misogynist message on their cups, would you still say "Oh it's just a message on a cup, who cares?"

Jolie Rouge
06-20-2007, 09:58 PM
I think that we are responsible for the messages we choose to put out. If Starbucks suddenly decided to put a racist or misogynist message on their cups, would you still say "Oh it's just a message on a cup, who cares?"


:hi5


Very well said ...


If I could bring myself to pay that much for coffee .... and I was truly offended by the quote on the cup, I would have NO PROBLEM asking the clerk/cashier/barrista to provide a different quote/cup. You wouldn't have to be ugly about it - just firm...



Is Starbucks a coffee house where you hang around and sit on couches and such talking? If so, I think they are just trying to spark conversation to keep customers talking and buying more coffee.

LOL it *is* marketing ... and here we are providing free advertising for them

:cheers:

27Summers
06-21-2007, 08:12 AM
Hmm, funny that "freedom of speech" is always on the side of the UNBELIEVER.Even our kids cant mention "God" in yearbooks, at graduations, etc. Where is that "freedom of speech" Believers are part of the new "dont tell" policy. As it states it is a figment of imagination, I would think that is the case. As a believer, I would rather die and be wrong than be an unbeliever and die and be wrong. My Bible states that if we deny God here on earth, He will also deny us in Heaven. The alternatives doesnt sound like where I want to put my Happy Feet. I would be offended by either cup ( I want my message in ENGLISH too) and would refuse to pay for it if served that way and would let them know why. MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Coming from a previous STARBUCKS addict here in Starbucksville near Seattle. Karen

well said. It's just like the bill they were (are still I think) trying to pass that you can be arrested for saying anything that could be considered a hate crime. In other words, when my pastor preaches against homosexuality, he could be arrested. Where are the Christian's right to free speech??

Val1
06-21-2007, 09:10 AM
well said. It's just like the bill they were (are still I think) trying to pass that you can be arrested for saying anything that could be considered a hate crime. In other words, when my pastor preaches against homosexuality, he could be arrested. Where are the Christian's right to free speech??

Which bill are you talking about?

I've received multiple emails about House Bill HR 1592 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1592 purporting that it would prohibit pastors from preaching against homosexuality and that bill does nothing of the kind!

That bill allows for the prosecution of those who commit BODILY HARM to another individual on the basis of "race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of the victim". It does not even single out homosexuality, nor does it in any way limit free speech. It is simply an addition means of prosecuting someone for physically HARMING another person on the basis of the above.

I hate to see emails get forwarded that spread false info about the purpose of a proposed bill. I'm not sure if that was the one you were referring to, 27 Summers, but I know that one has been unjustly villifed via the internet. Folks should read the actual text of the bill themselves before believing what is rumored about it.

DtroitPunk
06-22-2007, 10:00 AM
A couple of quotes I pulled from the Starbuck's website:

Darwinism’s impact on traditional social values has not been as benign as its advocates would like us to believe. Despite the efforts of its modern defenders to distance themselves from its baleful social consequences, Darwinism’s connection with eugenics, abortion and racism is a matter of historical record. And the record is not pretty.

-- Dr. Jonathan Wells
Biologist and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design.


In reality hell is not such an intention of God as it is an invention of man. God is love and people are precious. Authentic truth is not so much taught or learned as it is remembered. Somewhere in your pre-incarnate consciousness you were loved absolutely because you were. Loved absolutely, and in reality, you still are! Remember who you are!

-- Bishop Carlton Pearson
Author, speaker, spiritual leader and recording artist.

I totally agree with the top quote! But totally DISAGREE with the 2nd this kind of feel good pap is what makes people believe that ANYONE can go to heaven no matter how they live and ignores the fact that Jesus spoke of hell more than heaven. But it seems to me that Starbucks is trying to spark genuine thought, conversation and debate. Nothing wrong with that.

ahippiechic
06-22-2007, 10:23 AM
I agree with some of the quotes I've gotten on my cups, disagree with others. I just don't think it's a big deal. The ones I don't agree with don't offend me, I'm used to seeing and hearing things I don't agree with. The quotes are others opinions (not Starbucks) and I don't have a problem reading differing opinions. But if I did, I would ask for another cup or go somewhere else for my coffee. I wouldn't try to keep them from printing whatever they wanted on their cups.

dlwt
06-22-2007, 01:32 PM
Personally if they choose to NOT GO BACK to Starbucks thats their right. I always get Iced Drinks and they dont have quotes on the iced drinkgs. but if it really ticked me off I wouldnt go back thats this place or anyplace, though I am not sure it would end up on the news

Jolie Rouge
06-23-2007, 09:46 PM
well said. It's just like the bill they were (are still I think) trying to pass that you can be arrested for saying anything that could be considered a hate crime. In other words, when my pastor preaches against homosexuality, he could be arrested. Where are the Christian's right to free speech??


Found more on Snopes : http://www.snopes.com/politics/sexuality/hatecrime.asp

DtroitPunk
06-24-2007, 12:26 AM
I dont believe that the majority of people feel a need for such laws. If someone beats the heck out of a gay it is still felonious assault, motivation, like because they are black or gay or whatever shouldnt even matter. This just sets up special protections for certain classes of people and helps to establish Gays as a minority. Women cant help being women and black people cant change the fact that they are black unless they are Michael Jackson. But to equate personal choice with heredity is just another step towards normalizing and legitimizing the behavior.

Some people like Politicians in Vermont are busily passing transgender id bills to protect a miniscule portion of their populations while refusing to pass important legislation that protects a LARGE portion of Vermonts citizens children. They killed Jessicas law while passing this crap. Lets stop offering special/additional protections for deviants and take care of our kids.

hotwheelstx
06-24-2007, 02:26 AM
I'm glad that I don't coffee. However, the quotes wouldn't offend me at all. It's freedom of speech, press. Aggie and I saw a bumper sticker one time that said "I have nothing against God, I just don't like his fan club". Guy was being honked at, at a stoplight.

To each his own. Never discuss politics or religion....it only causes an upset....jmo:coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:

LI Mama
06-24-2007, 11:02 AM
I dont believe that the majority of people feel a need for such laws. If someone beats the heck out of a gay it is still felonious assault, motivation, like because they are black or gay or whatever shouldnt even matter. This just sets up special protections for certain classes of people and helps to establish Gays as a minority. Women cant help being women and black people cant change the fact that they are black unless they are Michael Jackson. But to equate personal choice with heredity is just another step towards normalizing and legitimizing the behavior.

When did you make the deicision to be heterosexual? Did you wake up one morning and decide that women were more attractive then men?


Some people like Politicians in Vermont are busily passing transgender id bills to protect a miniscule portion of their populations while refusing to pass important legislation that protects a LARGE portion of Vermonts citizens children. They killed Jessicas law while passing this crap. Lets stop offering special/additional protections for deviants and take care of our kids.

Feel that Christian love and understanding. :rolleyes:

Lasher
06-24-2007, 12:02 PM
I dont believe that the majority of people feel a need for such laws. If someone beats the heck out of a gay it is still felonious assault, motivation, like because they are black or gay or whatever shouldnt even matter. This just sets up special protections for certain classes of people and helps to establish Gays as a minority. Women cant help being women and black people cant change the fact that they are black unless they are Michael Jackson. But to equate personal choice with heredity is just another step towards normalizing and legitimizing the behavior.

Some people like Politicians in Vermont are busily passing transgender id bills to protect a miniscule portion of their populations while refusing to pass important legislation that protects a LARGE portion of Vermonts citizens children. They killed Jessicas law while passing this crap. Lets stop offering special/additional protections for deviants and take care of our kids.

Ok first off genius what makes a group a minority is the fact that they aren't the majority, it's not some trophy or special status we compete for.
Second homosexuality is no more a choice than heterosexuality.
the only logical arguement you made was for Jesscia's law.

As for the quote cups, it's just this simple, if you don't like the cup, don't buy the coffee. I don't like people coming to my job all day handing me religious tracks, but I don't stage a protest against it. Hell at least you can choose not to go to Starbucks, I have to go to work.

Lasher
06-24-2007, 12:07 PM
I did NOT say they should not have the freedom to put what they want on their cups, after all this is still America. What I am saying is that I also have the freedom not to drink out of a cup that would say something I disagree with. How I spend my money is MY FREEDOM CHOICE , and Tullys also makes a very good latte. It is my private boycott and we still have that right.
Regarding the schools, here seniors were told if they mention God during their speeches, they would not receive their diploma. Is this not a "dont tell policy"?
A christian teen group that met afterschool in the multi purpose room was told to "move it off campus". And you asked how would I like it if other religions, ie Hindu was taught. It ALREADY is here. My neighbors kindergardener has daily YOGA meditation. Im not talking about exercises. They have to choose a Mantra, or say M-m-m-m in a quiet rythem. That is part of the HINDU religion, and the mantra is a prayer to a universal being within you. This is mandatory in this public school class. Yet, teens cannot meet AFTER school on school grounds. Is this treating all beliefs the same??
Regarding the cup, can you imagine the UPROAR from the ACLU and lawyers if the cup called Buddhism, Islamic faith, or Hinduism a "fabrication"---it would file a lawsuit against Starbucks for discrimination. Now, are all beliefs being treated the same?
Now if you will REREAD what I originally wrote, I did NOT in any way say I would deny them the right to put whatever they like on their cup. I dont know where you got that!! I just said, I have the freedom of speech still to say I dont like it, and to buy my coffee elsewhere. I also have a private Michael Moore and Jayne Fonda boycott going on . My RIGHT. And I dont buy Strysand music anymore. MY RIGHT too. Its called conscience and being true to my value system. If yours is different, follow your own path.. Its what makes our country uniquely great.

We prayed everyday before school at the flag pole. The law states that the prayer must be student led, this is so no student has to participate or feel that they have to participate just because their teacher is praying. When had faculty there with us who chose to be there, but the prayer and pledge was always led by a student. I totally agree with the law, I don't feel anyone should be forced to do something they don't believe is right.

DtroitPunk
06-24-2007, 04:18 PM
Lasher, first off dont start getting snarky with me. The genius crack was totally unnecessary. Typically minority status according to the Government doesnt include just for example (bestialists, pedophiles, swingers, necrophiliacs etc) Women arent always a minority mathematically and they enjoy minority status. According to the dictionary, you are correct but in practice of politics you are wrong. I put my point quite plainly, you dont have to agree with me. There has never been ANY proof that people are born gay! People fall into certain behaviors and attitudes by conditioning. I saw my father and mother interacting, I saw my grandparents interacting, I saw movies and soap operas as a kid and knew that when men and women liked each other they grew physically close. These are behaviors we learn and emulate. When I hit puberty, yes I knew that I was attracted to women and not men. When kids grow up without traditional role models or are abused or are ENCOURAGED in adolescence and puberty to be BI or gay just because they are confused about their sexuality we are going to have some mixed up people. Many kids today are not aroused by men but are not grossed out by the idea (we can thank all the pro-gay media for this softening of attitude)and find it easier to talk to guys and then develop into opportunistic personalities. Getting physical with guys is easier for them and then once they start they convince themselves that they are into men when really its just convenient. If the second paragraph was also directed at me, I think what Starbucks is doing is GREAT!

DtroitPunk
06-24-2007, 04:35 PM
When did you make the deicision to be heterosexual? Did you wake up one morning and decide that women were more attractive then men?



Feel that Christian love and understanding. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think I ALWAYS as long as I can remember thought women were pretty and didnt really care about what men looked like. And I believe that in a soceity that doesnt glamourize homosexuality this is the norm. Even in our sick, totally accepting soceity gays are still only a small portion of the total population.

And actually while you are being funny, Christ was killed because people hated him. In the bible we have Christ calling people a wicked and adulterous generation, a brood of vipers, dogs not fit to sit at the masters table etc. Many so called christians have emasculated Christ today. Jesus was a man. A real man speaks the truth as he sees it and doesnt worry about hurting someones feelings. I could see your objection if I was verbally gay bashing. Not one thing that I said above is openly hateful towards gays. And why should I be understanding of homosexuality? This is SIN, it seperates them from God and sends them to hell. I dont want to understand it, I dont need to understand it. That being said I make my positions clear and when gay people need advice from the bible or want to repent of their lives and come to God I am there. You dont help someone into heaven by ignoring the sin in their lives, in fact if we all tell them that there is nothing wrong with them we are helping them to hell. I love people enough to be unpopular by telling someone when they are wrong with God, FROM HIS WORD. Oh, and by the way the Catholic Church is pretty tough on Gays as well unless they are Priests then they ignore them.

kate
06-24-2007, 05:29 PM
And actually while you are being funny, Christ was killed because people hated him. In the bible we have Christ calling people a wicked and adulterous generation, a brood of vipers, dogs not fit to sit at the masters table etc. Many so called christians have emasculated Christ today. Jesus was a man. A real man speaks the truth as he sees it and doesnt worry about hurting someones feelings. I could see your objection if I was verbally gay bashing. Not one thing that I said above is openly hateful towards gays. And why should I be understanding of homosexuality? This is SIN, it seperates them from God and sends them to hell. I dont want to understand it, I dont need to understand it. That being said I make my positions clear and when gay people need advice from the bible or want to repent of their lives and come to God I am there. You dont help someone into heaven by ignoring the sin in their lives, in fact if we all tell them that there is nothing wrong with them we are helping them to hell. I love people enough to be unpopular by telling someone when they are wrong with God, FROM HIS WORD. Oh, and by the way the Catholic Church is pretty tough on Gays as well unless they are Priests then they ignore them.

Right, and then there is that whole pointing out the small sin in someone else while ignoring the large sin in your own life ;)

And actually the Catholic Church isn't any harder on gays then it is the unmarried people having sex. Homosexuality, being attracted to someone of the same gender, isn't the problem it is any sex outside of marriage (homosexual or heterosexual). But yet even with that it is still a sin (if one considers it a sin), no worse sin than many of the others that are committed every day by Christians.

Oh and the Church doesn't ignore gay priests. Technically if the priest is gay then he's perfectly in line with the Church's teaching because he should be celibate and a celibate gay will fulfill the role of priest just like a celibate heterosexual.

Lasher
06-24-2007, 06:04 PM
Lasher, first off dont start getting snarky with me. The genius crack was totally unnecessary. Typically minority status according to the Government doesnt include just for example (bestialists, pedophiles, swingers, necrophiliacs etc) Women arent always a minority mathematically and they enjoy minority status. According to the dictionary, you are correct but in practice of politics you are wrong. I put my point quite plainly, you dont have to agree with me. There has never been ANY proof that people are born gay! People fall into certain behaviors and attitudes by conditioning. I saw my father and mother interacting, I saw my grandparents interacting, I saw movies and soap operas as a kid and knew that when men and women liked each other they grew physically close. These are behaviors we learn and emulate. When I hit puberty, yes I knew that I was attracted to women and not men. When kids grow up without traditional role models or are abused or are ENCOURAGED in adolescence and puberty to be BI or gay just because they are confused about their sexuality we are going to have some mixed up people. Many kids today are not aroused by men but are not grossed out by the idea (we can thank all the pro-gay media for this softening of attitude)and find it easier to talk to guys and then develop into opportunistic personalities. Getting physical with guys is easier for them and then once they start they convince themselves that they are into men when really its just convenient. If the second paragraph was also directed at me, I think what Starbucks is doing is GREAT!


My parents weren't gay, no I knew when I was a child was gay, never saw a "gay movie" didn't even know what gay was til I was in highschool, but I knew I liked girls. I was never abused, my parents were both there. The only thing they encouraged me to do, was never give up, and never try to give my life meaning by demeaning others.
As for the getting guys getting physical with guys thing, you are confusing sex with sexuality. Having sex with someone of the the same sex doesn't make you gay, anymore than me having sex with someone of the opposite sex would all the sudden make me straight.

As far as the genius crack, I think you earned it with the deviant crack, if you take it, don't dish it.

DtroitPunk
06-24-2007, 08:25 PM
Right, and then there is that whole pointing out the small sin in someone else while ignoring the large sin in your own life ;)

And actually the Catholic Church isn't any harder on gays then it is the unmarried people having sex. Homosexuality, being attracted to someone of the same gender, isn't the problem it is any sex outside of marriage (homosexual or heterosexual). But yet even with that it is still a sin (if one considers it a sin), no worse sin than many of the others that are committed every day by Christians.

Oh and the Church doesn't ignore gay priests. Technically if the priest is gay then he's perfectly in line with the Church's teaching because he should be celibate and a celibate gay will fulfill the role of priest just like a celibate heterosexual.

Im not sure exactly what you are addressing in the first sentence.

And regardless of common belief, there are differing levels of sin. Some believ that sin is sin and all are equal. This is patently false, why does the bible call for the death penalty for some sins and not others? Plus christ himself said in John 19:11 "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" if all sin is the same how can one be greater than another? And the church DOES ignore gay priests, they are even talking about ordaining them. The bible says that sex between people of the same sex isnt just sin it is also unnatural. So for the "Church" to basically ignore the wrongness of Homosexuality is ignoring the problem. A person who is openly proclaiming their homosexuality can not be a Christian a priest or any kind of servant to God. The issue isnt just celibacy, if they think about homosexual activities it is the same as having done it. See MAtt 5:28.

Plus if someone is saying they are gay, most of the time they arent dealing with the issue of sin. If I say for example that I am a wife beater and I will always be a wife beater but I want to be the deacon in my church, I am ignoring the bible on several counts. First The bible says that a man who desires a position in the church must not be a wife beater. We are also told many times that salvation is dependant on repentance. If I am unwilling to admit that how I feel is wrong, I cannot be forgiven. Its one thing if a Priest says I used to be gay, but quite another if he says I am gay but Celibate.

Many people would argue with many of the stands you take here like sin is sin, and homosexual sex is no worse than say a lie? Or if you consider it a sin? It doesnt matter what you or I consider a sin, because God has identified sin in the Bible. And I for one dont believe that a Gay priest can fill the role the same as a straight priest.

I am sure that you wouldnt say that theft of a loaf of bread to feed your kids and theft of a motor vehicle are equally sinful, so why try to make us believe that sin is sin.

DtroitPunk
06-24-2007, 08:41 PM
My parents weren't gay, no I knew when I was a child was gay, never saw a "gay movie" didn't even know what gay was til I was in highschool, but I knew I liked girls. I was never abused, my parents were both there. The only thing they encouraged me to do, was never give up, and never try to give my life meaning by demeaning others.
As for the getting guys getting physical with guys thing, you are confusing sex with sexuality. Having sex with someone of the the same sex doesn't make you gay, anymore than me having sex with someone of the opposite sex would all the sudden make me straight.

As far as the genius crack, I think you earned it with the deviant crack, if you take it, don't dish it.

Ok, fair enough. YOU believe that you have always been gay. Lets be honest though, you being gay probably know several other gay people. Statictically most people arent gay from childhood, but something at some point TURNS them Gay. And the point I was making is many people start off as sexual opportunists and then call themselves gay. I totally understand the difference between sex and sexuality.

And according to the bible any gay is a deviant. This is not me making up stuff because I hate gays. This being said, I am a very content individual with a good life. A wife, 2 boys and numerous interests. I dont demean others. And I dont need the approval of anyone on this forum. I certainly dont need you, or to demean you to give MY life meaning.

And trust me I can give ALL day long, AND I can take ANYTHING you can dish out. Because I know I am right. I guarantee if you want to make this ugly that YOU will be the one asking for the MODS to intervene.

We can agree to disagree, just realize that nearly everything I say is either from the Bible or I can back with the Bible. So you arent disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with God. Some people have a psychological imperative to steal. This doesnt mean that it is not sinful when they give into it. So just because you feel that you have always been gay, You still have the ultimate choice of whether you are going to act on impulses or not.

I apologize if you took my statements as abusive, but I had no idea that you were a Lesbian. I still wouldnt change one word I said though.

kate
06-24-2007, 09:30 PM
Im not sure exactly what you are addressing in the first sentence.

And regardless of common belief, there are differing levels of sin. Some believ that sin is sin and all are equal. This is patently false, why does the bible call for the death penalty for some sins and not others? Plus christ himself said in John 19:11 "he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin" if all sin is the same how can one be greater than another? And the church DOES ignore gay priests, they are even talking about ordaining them. The bible says that sex between people of the same sex isnt just sin it is also unnatural. So for the "Church" to basically ignore the wrongness of Homosexuality is ignoring the problem. A person who is openly proclaiming their homosexuality can not be a Christian a priest or any kind of servant to God. The issue isnt just celibacy, if they think about homosexual activities it is the same as having done it. See MAtt 5:28.

Plus if someone is saying they are gay, most of the time they arent dealing with the issue of sin. If I say for example that I am a wife beater and I will always be a wife beater but I want to be the deacon in my church, I am ignoring the bible on several counts. First The bible says that a man who desires a position in the church must not be a wife beater. We are also told many times that salvation is dependant on repentance. If I am unwilling to admit that how I feel is wrong, I cannot be forgiven. Its one thing if a Priest says I used to be gay, but quite another if he says I am gay but Celibate.

Many people would argue with many of the stands you take here like sin is sin, and homosexual sex is no worse than say a lie? Or if you consider it a sin? It doesnt matter what you or I consider a sin, because God has identified sin in the Bible. And I for one dont believe that a Gay priest can fill the role the same as a straight priest.

I am sure that you wouldnt say that theft of a loaf of bread to feed your kids and theft of a motor vehicle are equally sinful, so why try to make us believe that sin is sin.

Umm, I thought we'd got it out there that I'm Catholic. We, obviously believe in different levels of sin. I just can't see being gay (if it is a sin which I could argue it is not) being on the same level as mortal sin.

And how could a gay priest not fill the role that a straight priest can? They are both celibate. They both can perform any function that needs to be performed. Are they now less of humans because they have are wired to desire the same sex. Remember they are CELIBATE so neither of them is having sex. How would one be better at the job than the other. That makes absolutely no sense unless you feel that they are LESS of a human.

janelle
06-25-2007, 12:15 AM
Right, and then there is that whole pointing out the small sin in someone else while ignoring the large sin in your own life ;)

And actually the Catholic Church isn't any harder on gays then it is the unmarried people having sex. Homosexuality, being attracted to someone of the same gender, isn't the problem it is any sex outside of marriage (homosexual or heterosexual). But yet even with that it is still a sin (if one considers it a sin), no worse sin than many of the others that are committed every day by Christians.

Oh and the Church doesn't ignore gay priests. Technically if the priest is gay then he's perfectly in line with the Church's teaching because he should be celibate and a celibate gay will fulfill the role of priest just like a celibate heterosexual.

Very well stated. That is my understanding on the churches teachings as well.

I don't think Jesus would condemn anyone who is gay if they are not sexual with it.

If we believe THINKING about a sinful thing means we have already done it then I don't think anyone will get into heaven. No person would be qualified to be a minister. We all have sinful thoughts so not one of us would be qualified. I don't believe God is so punitive and petty to condemn us for just our thoughts.

Lasher
06-25-2007, 01:02 AM
Ok, fair enough. YOU believe that you have always been gay. Lets be honest though, you being gay probably know several other gay people. Statictically most people arent gay from childhood, but something at some point TURNS them Gay. And the point I was making is many people start off as sexual opportunists and then call themselves gay. .
Yeah that's what it is someone just wakes up and decides, you know what? I want to make my life harder and have millions of people ridicule and judge me, I think I'm gonna be gay now.



This is not me making up stuff because I hate gays. . Well at least you finally admitted it.


I dont demean others. And I dont need the approval of anyone on this forum. I certainly dont need you, or to demean you to give MY life meaning.

Not of that was directed at you, just a comment on how I was raised and stilled turned out as a "deviant"


And trust me I can give ALL day long, AND I can take ANYTHING you can dish out. Because I know I am right. I guarantee if you want to make this ugly that YOU will be the one asking for the MODS to intervene.

Hey Mom, hey Katt, what up?


We can agree to disagree, just realize that nearly everything I say is either from the Bible or I can back with the Bible. So you arent disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with God. Some people have a psychological imperative to steal. This doesnt mean that it is not sinful when they give into it. So just because you feel that you have always been gay, You still have the ultimate choice of whether you are going to act on impulses or not.

Don't worry me and God are on great terms


I apologize if you took my statements as abusive, but I had no idea that you were a Lesbian. I still wouldnt change one word I said though.

And you have any idea, becasue I don't fit into anyone's stereotype.
And you don't need to apologize, because you don't mean it.

Lasher
06-25-2007, 01:11 AM
Umm, I thought we'd got it out there that I'm Catholic. We, obviously believe in different levels of sin. I just can't see being gay (if it is a sin which I could argue it is not) being on the same level as mortal sin.

And how could a gay priest not fill the role that a straight priest can? They are both celibate. They both can perform any function that needs to be performed. Are they now less of humans because they have are wired to desire the same sex. Remember they are CELIBATE so neither of them is having sex. How would one be better at the job than the other. That makes absolutely no sense unless you feel that they are LESS of a human.

Some people just don't get it. When I was on campus at the Unisersity of Alabama, a Catholic Priest came to one of our meetings ( Gay Lesiban Bisexual Transgendered/Transexual Alliance) to invite all the members to church that Sunday. It was awesome, he was compassionate, and sincerely wanted everyone to come, at NO point did he say it was because we were all going straight to hell. More than half the kids there were convinced they could never go to church again, because they believed no one wanted them there, because all they ever heard was no matter what you do, you are going straight to hell, the whole "God hates fags" thing.

Tasha405
06-25-2007, 01:33 AM
Since when does something just happen one day to make someone gay? Does that mean something may happen to each and every one of us, one of these day, that will turn us gay?

moogle
06-25-2007, 03:34 AM
You know, in all the times I've drank a Starbucks coffee, I've never even noticed there was a quote on the cups.........I guess I was too interested in the coffee. And I'm an avid reader - lol!

Berkley69
06-25-2007, 07:30 AM
I'm with DtroitPunk :p

LI Mama
06-25-2007, 03:11 PM
Actually, I think I ALWAYS as long as I can remember thought women were pretty and didnt really care about what men looked like. And I believe that in a soceity that doesnt glamourize homosexuality this is the norm. Even in our sick, totally accepting soceity gays are still only a small portion of the total population.

So you didn't decide to be hetero, it was just how you were wired, correct? Why then, can't you accept that some people are NOT wired that way? My mom's SO is an extremely conservative, Brooklyn born Italian, with little tolerance for gays. Guess what? His eldest child is gay. Despite being raised in a house that openly ridiculed gays. He risked losing his entire family by admitting that he was a gay man, yet he did it anyway. Care to explain that? Luckily, Dad learned to live with it, and they maintain a close relationship today.


And actually while you are being funny, Christ was killed because people hated him.

Really? Gee, I'm so glad you're here to help me.


In the bible we have Christ calling people a wicked and adulterous generation, a brood of vipers, dogs not fit to sit at the masters table etc. Many so called christians have emasculated Christ today. Jesus was a man. A real man speaks the truth as he sees it and doesnt worry about hurting someones feelings.

No, a bully does those things. A real man is respectful, and loves his fellow human beings. See Ephesians 4:29 for clarification.



I could see your objection if I was verbally gay bashing. Not one thing that I said above is openly hateful towards gays.

Really? Calling them deviants and lumping them in with pedophiles isn't bashing? Try again.


And why should I be understanding of homosexuality? This is SIN, it seperates them from God and sends them to hell. I dont want to understand it, I dont need to understand it. That being said I make my positions clear and when gay people need advice from the bible or want to repent of their lives and come to God I am there. You dont help someone into heaven by ignoring the sin in their lives, in fact if we all tell them that there is nothing wrong with them we are helping them to hell. I love people enough to be unpopular by telling someone when they are wrong with God, FROM HIS WORD. Oh, and by the way the Catholic Church is pretty tough on Gays as well unless they are Priests then they ignore them.

Do you feel better now? I know it's hard for you to post anything without taking a swipe at The Church. Got it all out of your system? Yes, The Church is tough on gays. That would be one of the things I don't agree with. Contraty to popular myth, Catholics really are allowed to have thier very own opinions on things, and aren't forced to believe or agree with everything that comes out of Rome.

LI Mama
06-25-2007, 03:15 PM
Since when does something just happen one day to make someone gay? Does that mean something may happen to each and every one of us, one of these day, that will turn us gay?


So it would seem. Be careful, you might catch 'the gay!' Frankly, it's a miracle I haven't caught it. I've lived my entire life on Long Island, and spent the lion's share of every summer on Fire Island. I can't believe I escaped unscathed!

:rolleyes:

chickenswa
06-25-2007, 04:54 PM
I so agree with that coffee cup. It strengthens the power of the individual. I believe that God did not create humans; rather, it was the other way around.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 09:20 PM
Yeah that's what it is someone just wakes up and decides, you know what? I want to make my life harder and have millions of people ridicule and judge me, I think I'm gonna be gay now.

Well at least you finally admitted it.

Have you lost your mind? I love ALL people but I hate the SIN just as Christ would and I am not going to mollycoddle you and tell you that you are fine just the way you are because I would like to see you in heaven.

Not of that was directed at you, just a comment on how I was raised and stilled turned out as a "deviant"



Hey Mom, hey Katt, what up?

MORE proof that to some "CHRISTIANS" being liked is more important than being right with God.



Don't worry me and God are on great terms

I certainly hope thats the case, but I seriously doubt it. If you once were a lesbian and now were living a celibate chaste life. You COULD be on great terms with god. But if you want to believe that there is nothing wrong with being gay or are "active" you CANNOT be on good terms with God.


And you have any idea, becasue I don't fit into anyone's stereotype.
And you don't need to apologize, because you don't mean it.

I also do not fit any one mold. But dont presume to know my mind. If what I said offended you I DO apologize, but I believe with all my heart that what I said was right so I will not take it back. I can be sorry that my words hurt you but if I have to lie to you to protect your feelings...I am sorry I just cant do that.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 09:27 PM
Very well stated. That is my understanding on the churches teachings as well.

I don't think Jesus would condemn anyone who is gay if they are not sexual with it.

If we believe THINKING about a sinful thing means we have already done it then I don't think anyone will get into heaven. No person would be qualified to be a minister. We all have sinful thoughts so not one of us would be qualified. I don't believe God is so punitive and petty to condemn us for just our thoughts.

Once again we have those who dont know the bible clamouring to explain what God is or SHOULD BE. I made my point clearly, if you are a gay who is unrepentant as many are (how can you be sorry for something if you believe there is nothing wrong with it?) Then God will condemn you just as he condemns the wife beater the killer and the kidnapper if they are unrepentant.

The bible is very clear that we are to guard our thoughts and try to have the mind of Christ. If we are constantly having bad thoughts and we do not feel guilty about it and share it with God, we WILL be condemned by those same thoughts. This is the bible, whether you believe it or not. We all have sinful thoughts, but some of us are aware that they ARE sinful and feel bad about them. If we do not, we cannot be forgiven.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 09:32 PM
Some people just don't get it. When I was on campus at the Unisersity of Alabama, a Catholic Priest came to one of our meetings ( Gay Lesiban Bisexual Transgendered/Transexual Alliance) to invite all the members to church that Sunday. It was awesome, he was compassionate, and sincerely wanted everyone to come, at NO point did he say it was because we were all going straight to hell. More than half the kids there were convinced they could never go to church again, because they believed no one wanted them there, because all they ever heard was no matter what you do, you are going straight to hell, the whole "God hates fags" thing.

Sure, he was compassionate, he wanted EVERYONE to come to the church and give money. He did not care about your soul. If he did he wouldnt just slap you with the bible but he would show you from the bible what God has to say about your "lifestyle". Any sex outside of marriage is sin, and God only recognizes one type of marriage. By the way, so does the AWESOME catholic church. They dont support your right to be gay or marry anymore than I do. But individuals from the Catholic Faith might. Dont be deceived.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 09:39 PM
Since when does something just happen one day to make someone gay? Does that mean something may happen to each and every one of us, one of these day, that will turn us gay?

This was a generalization, but it DOES happen. I KNOW several children who were abused who went on to abuse others. This is commonly known in psychology, the Church and in certain Queer circles like NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). They actually have a slogan "sex by eight or its too late" because they know that if you molest a young by you are basically guaranteeing a new generation of pedophiles. This is how SOME Gays procreate.

I know that alot of you are now going to start screaming that not all pedophiles are gay, and I know this.

I also have known a couple of women personally who were abused by a male role model in childhood who became a lesbian AND a psychiatric patient.

I am not saying that ALL gays are created by the acts of others, but to act like some arent is a bald faced lie.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 09:40 PM
I'm with DtroitPunk :p

Its nice to know that I am not totally alone here!

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 10:04 PM
So you didn't decide to be hetero, it was just how you were wired, correct? Why then, can't you accept that some people are NOT wired that way? My mom's SO is an extremely conservative, Brooklyn born Italian, with little tolerance for gays. Guess what? His eldest child is gay. Despite being raised in a house that openly ridiculed gays. He risked losing his entire family by admitting that he was a gay man, yet he did it anyway. Care to explain that? Luckily, Dad learned to live with it, and they maintain a close relationship today.

Sure, its called free will. Whatever we are told is wrong or forbidden that is what we want to do. And your Dad compromised his convictions, that is nothing to be proud of.



Really? Gee, I'm so glad you're here to help me.



No, a bully does those things. A real man is respectful, and loves his fellow human beings. See Ephesians 4:29 for clarification.

All of the things I quoted JESUS said to people. Are you calling Jesus a BULLY? Speaking your mind doesnt make you a bully unless you do it when people have asked you not to. This is a public forum, I have not been bullying or abusing anyone. Just speaking my mind.

And if one actually READS Ephesians 4:29 you might see that it says "let no CORRUPT communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of EDIFYING, that it may minister GRACE to the hearers."

OK, first off if you use the Bible to teach then there can be no CORRUPT communication Corrupt meaning altered from the original, and edifying means "enlightening or uplifting so as to encourage intellectual or moral improvement" Oh and Grace means a state of sanctification by God. So if I tell someone what the bible says it isnt corrupt communication, and if they take it it edifys them, if they dont, at least they cant say on the day of judgement that they didnt know, and if they do take instruction from the bible they can be led into a state of Grace. But if I refuse to ever condemn the sin and ENABLE the sin by telling them they can come to my church where NO ONE will tell them they are wrong, how can I or my church ever help them to Grace.


Really? Calling them deviants and lumping them in with pedophiles isn't bashing? Try again.

I dont recall lumping homosexuals in with Pedophiles, and YOU think I am bashing? OK, you have the right to feel however you want. But that doesnt change the truth or falsity of my statements. Calling me a gay basher makes you feel good go ahead, but I dont believe that ALL of the people here think I am
"Bashing is a harsh, gratuitous, predjudicial attack on a person, group or subject. Literally, bashing is a term meaning to hit or, colloquially, to assault but when it is used as a suffix, or in conjunction with a noun indicating the subject being attacked, it is normally used to imply a sense of uncompromising vehemence and bigotry about the assailant."

it is normally used to imply a sense of uncompromising vehemence and bigotry about the assailant AH HA!!! If you get every one here to believe that I am a bigot then no one will take me seriously? I havent attacked anyone on here. I have no vehemence or unreasonable anger, I havent gotten angry at anyone, so how about you TRY AGAIN?



Do you feel better now? I know it's hard for you to post anything without taking a swipe at The Church. Got it all out of your system? Yes, The Church is tough on gays. That would be one of the things I don't agree with. Contraty to popular myth, Catholics really are allowed to have thier very own opinions on things, and aren't forced to believe or agree with everything that comes out of Rome.

I do feel EVER SO MUCH BETTER, now that I have refuted your statements. I swipe at the Catholic church often because it scares the hell out of me that the largest "CHRISTIAN" church in the world really isnt Christian and that MANY of its followers may go to hell because they have never heard the plan of Salvation from its Leaders.


I applaude you that you dont agree with everything your church says, but doesnt that imply that they are wrong? How can the Church be wrong? And you are actually disagreeing with God now...Pretty bad habit.

DtroitPunk
06-25-2007, 10:08 PM
I so agree with that coffee cup. It strengthens the power of the individual. I believe that God did not create humans; rather, it was the other way around.

An interesting vie point that frees you from any Morality or responsibility for your actions. Unfortunately it is an utterly indefensible position. The very nature of the Earth shows over and over again that something doesnt come from nothing. There is information and irreducible complexity at the samllest points in life, this looks like information that was designed with a purpose BECAUSE IT IS. Some may believe that naturalistic causes are sufficient to explain all we see in life, but they are deluding themeselves.

And if at some point ANYTHING in NATURE was created...Who created it? God. We can debate over the nature of God, but not the existence.

Lasher
06-26-2007, 05:12 AM
Sure, he was compassionate, he wanted EVERYONE to come to the church and give money. He did not care about your soul. If he did he wouldnt just slap you with the bible but he would show you from the bible what God has to say about your "lifestyle". Any sex outside of marriage is sin, and God only recognizes one type of marriage. By the way, so does the AWESOME catholic church. They dont support your right to be gay or marry anymore than I do. But individuals from the Catholic Faith might. Dont be deceived.

No of us gave money, no one asked us too.
Being gay isn't a lifestyle.
And don't worry I wouldn't want to ruin the sanctitty of Brittany Spears 55 hour marriage.

freeby4me
06-26-2007, 05:27 AM
An interesting vie point that frees you from any Morality or responsibility for your actions. Unfortunately it is an utterly indefensible position. The very nature of the Earth shows over and over again that something doesnt come from nothing. There is information and irreducible complexity at the samllest points in life, this looks like information that was designed with a purpose BECAUSE IT IS. Some may believe that naturalistic causes are sufficient to explain all we see in life, but they are deluding themeselves.

And if at some point ANYTHING in NATURE was created...Who created it? God. We can debate over the nature of God, but not the existence.

All I can say is this. If you studied science as much as the Bible you might see things more clear. Yes. More clear.
The scary thing about people like "you" (generalized) is how "This is how it is, there is no other way" that leaves "MY way or the highway" mentality and nobody has ever gotten ahead acting like that.
Havent you ever wondered why 7 different people who read the Bible come back with 7 different ways of it "correctly" being viewed?? Who's right, I ask you? You? Why? Because you said so?? What makes the six others incorrect??

Perhaps you're not so correct in your absolution as you think.....

Tasha405
06-26-2007, 08:24 AM
All I can say is this. If you studied science as much as the Bible you might see things more clear. Yes. More clear.
The scary thing about people like "you" (generalized) is how "This is how it is, there is no other way" that leaves "MY way or the highway" mentality and nobody has ever gotten ahead acting like that.
Havent you ever wondered why 7 different people who read the Bible come back with 7 different ways of it "correctly" being viewed?? Who's right, I ask you? You? Why? Because you said so?? What makes the six others incorrect??

Perhaps you're not so correct in your absolution as you think.....

ITA! :star:

Lasher
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
This was a generalization, but it DOES happen. I KNOW several children who were abused who went on to abuse others. This is commonly known in psychology, the Church and in certain Queer circles like NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). They actually have a slogan "sex by eight or its too late" because they know that if you molest a young by you are basically guaranteeing a new generation of pedophiles. This is how SOME Gays procreate.

I know that alot of you are now going to start screaming that not all pedophiles are gay, and I know this.

I also have known a couple of women personally who were abused by a male role model in childhood who became a lesbian AND a psychiatric patient.

I am not saying that ALL gays are created by the acts of others, but to act like some arent is a bald faced lie.

I thought I was having a battle ot the wits with and armed person, clearly I was mistaken, by all means impart your wisdom.

freeby4me
06-26-2007, 11:52 AM
I thought I was having a battle ot the wits with and armed person, clearly I was mistaken, by all means impart your wisdom.

:rofl: :rolling

ahippiechic
06-26-2007, 01:39 PM
I thought I was having a battle ot the wits with and armed person, clearly I was mistaken, by all means impart your wisdom.

Lasher, you made me spit my Starbucks iced coffee out! :D

DtroitPunk
06-26-2007, 04:54 PM
No of us gave money, no one asked us too.
Being gay isn't a lifestyle.

And don't worry I wouldn't want to ruin the sanctitty of Brittany Spears 55 hour marriage.

And how many of you kept going? If any did I am sure they eventually gave money.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

People in Hollywood shouldnt bother to marry ever so this is a pretty weak shot.

Have a good day.

DtroitPunk
06-26-2007, 05:11 PM
All I can say is this. If you studied science as much as the Bible you might see things more clear. Yes. More clear.
The scary thing about people like "you" (generalized) is how "This is how it is, there is no other way" that leaves "MY way or the highway" mentality and nobody has ever gotten ahead acting like that.
Havent you ever wondered why 7 different people who read the Bible come back with 7 different ways of it "correctly" being viewed?? Who's right, I ask you? You? Why? Because you said so?? What makes the six others incorrect??

Perhaps you're not so correct in your absolution as you think.....


I didnt have the chance to study advanced Math and Science, as you say. However there are LOADS of credentialed Scientists out there who have, and MANY of them are coming to the knowledge that naturalistic causes for the ORIGIN of life are Mathematically AND Scientifically IMPOSSIBLE. Mind you I said the ORIGINS, I am not going to say that MICRO evolution doesnt occur because it clearly does and accounts for some VARIATION of the species. But MACRO evolution DOESNT occur. We have NO evidence ANYWWHERE for any NEW SPECIES being created by evolution or any other naturalistic cause. Why? Because something doesnt come from nothing. There has to be a CAUSAL factor.

As for the bible, I am right not because I say so. I am right because I do not read the bible as I see fit. You are right that many people read and interpret the bible different ways. I however DO NOT. I have always been an intellectual, and I knew that were I to accept Christianity I would have to believe in Gods word and set aside my feelings on the matter. I used to have friends and acquaintences in the world who were gay. I thought as a young Christian that I could sort of ignore it. "I" thought that it seemed wrong for God to say that People who chose to have sex outside of marriage were wrong. But I came to understand through deeper study of the Bible why God feels as he does on many subjects. And when sometimes I doubt the wisdom of God or the Bible, I remember that I am the CREATION and he is the CREATOR.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

DtroitPunk
06-26-2007, 05:17 PM
I thought I was having a battle ot the wits with and armed person, clearly I was mistaken, by all means impart your wisdom.

Wow, you resort to high school tactics and many here pat you on the back for it? You are a joke. You ignore everything I say and attack ME as you have nothing intelligent to say to my statements.

Clearly it is you that have entered into a battle of wits with NO ammunition other than your personal feelings.

Ad Hominem attacks are one of the feeble attempts of the desperate to deflect attention from the fact that they cannot debate someone on the points.

evrita
06-26-2007, 09:30 PM
You post just like someone else on the board used to. Somone who used to C\P everything and bold certain words and used the word Ad Hominem all the time. Mikaer or something like that was their name

Jolie Rouge
06-26-2007, 09:39 PM
Wow, you resort to high school tactics and many here pat you on the back for it? You are a joke. You ignore everything I say and attack ME as you have nothing intelligent to say to my statements.

Clearly it is you that have entered into a battle of wits with NO ammunition other than your personal feelings.

Ad Hominem attacks are one of the feeble attempts of the desperate to deflect attention from the fact that they cannot debate someone on the points.



:clapping :clapping :clapping :clapping

:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

DtroitPunk
06-26-2007, 09:51 PM
I copy and paste so that I am actually addressing what the person has said and so no one can say that I put words in their mouths or stated their position unfairly. If this Mikaer? did the same thing I applaude him as I feel this is the only way to ensure that both sides statements are being fairly shown. And I am quite sure that anyone who has ever read Phillip Johnson, Lee Strobel or many other apologists's or who has a foundation in Law or knows latin might also use Ad Hominem. Oh and I bold certain words to place empahsis on them.

Jolie Rouge
06-26-2007, 09:57 PM
You would really have to look up some of Mikaer's past posts, the aggravating thing was that he/she used the term "Ad Hominem" exhaustively and inappropriately.

DtroitPunk
06-26-2007, 10:28 PM
Well, I think I used it correctly? LOL

janelle
06-26-2007, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle
Very well stated. That is my understanding on the churches teachings as well.

I don't think Jesus would condemn anyone who is gay if they are not sexual with it.

If we believe THINKING about a sinful thing means we have already done it then I don't think anyone will get into heaven. No person would be qualified to be a minister. We all have sinful thoughts so not one of us would be qualified. I don't believe God is so punitive and petty to condemn us for just our thoughts.
================================================== =========
Once again we have those who dont know the bible clamouring to explain what God is or SHOULD BE. I made my point clearly, if you are a gay who is unrepentant as many are (how can you be sorry for something if you believe there is nothing wrong with it?) Then God will condemn you just as he condemns the wife beater the killer and the kidnapper if they are unrepentant.

The bible is very clear that we are to guard our thoughts and try to have the mind of Christ. If we are constantly having bad thoughts and we do not feel guilty about it and share it with God, we WILL be condemned by those same thoughts. This is the bible, whether you believe it or not. We all have sinful thoughts, but some of us are aware that they ARE sinful and feel bad about them. If we do not, we cannot be forgiven.
__________________


Where in my statement did I say the person who had sinful thoughts was not sorry for them? We ALL have sinful thoughts and are repentent. Some gays are never sexual but you would have them going to hell just for thinking about it.

I guess I believe in a more loving God than you do. IMO the Christrian who really follows what Jesus would do does not hit people over the head with bible quotes but speaks with compassion to them like Jesus did. I don't think Jesus ever won a sinner over by telling them they were going to hell in a hand basket. He dined and associated with sinners. In order to win people's souls and minds you have to be compassionate for their circumstances, which Jesus was.

janelle
06-26-2007, 10:51 PM
Sure, he was compassionate, he wanted EVERYONE to come to the church and give money. He did not care about your soul. If he did he wouldnt just slap you with the bible but he would show you from the bible what God has to say about your "lifestyle". Any sex outside of marriage is sin, and God only recognizes one type of marriage. By the way, so does the AWESOME catholic church. They dont support your right to be gay or marry anymore than I do. But individuals from the Catholic Faith might. Dont be deceived.

How judgmental is that? He wanted them to come so he could get their money? LOL What would Jesus do? How do you know if someone cared or not cared about someone's elses soul?

She didn't say the priest slapped anyone with the bible---the only one here doing the bible slapping is you. You have read the bible and you are the one who knows exactly what it means, no one else but you.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 01:10 AM
Wow, you resort to high school tactics and many here pat you on the back for it? You are a joke. You ignore everything I say and attack ME as you have nothing intelligent to say to my statements.

Clearly it is you that have entered into a battle of wits with NO ammunition other than your personal feelings.

Ad Hominem attacks are one of the feeble attempts of the desperate to deflect attention from the fact that they cannot debate someone on the points.

I think pretty much everyone was trying to ignore what you said. I mean I think I handled your post quite well considering you compared me to a child molester. If you want me to debate a point make one.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 01:54 AM
I think pretty much everyone was trying to ignore what you said. I mean I think I handled your post quite well considering you compared me to a child molester. If you want me to debate a point make one.

Maybe everyone was trying to ignore what I said because it was uncomfortably close to the truth? I made several points and you ignored them all instead deciding to resort to childish personal attacks.

Here is what I said and what you said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DtroitPunk
This was a generalization, but it DOES happen. I KNOW several children who were abused who went on to abuse others. This is commonly known in psychology, the Church and in certain Queer circles like NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). They actually have a slogan "sex by eight or its too late" because they know that if you molest a young by you are basically guaranteeing a new generation of pedophiles. This is how SOME Gays procreate.

I know that alot of you are now going to start screaming that not all pedophiles are gay, and I know this.

I also have known a couple of women personally who were abused by a male role model in childhood who became a lesbian AND a psychiatric patient.

I am not saying that ALL gays are created by the acts of others, but to act like some arent is a bald faced lie.

I thought I was having a battle ot the wits with and armed person, clearly I was mistaken, by all means impart your wisdom.
__________________

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 02:22 AM
Janelle says "Where in my statement did I say the person who had sinful thoughts was not sorry for them? We ALL have sinful thoughts and are repentent. Some gays are never sexual but you would have them going to hell just for thinking about it.

I guess I believe in a more loving God than you do. IMO the Christrian who really follows what Jesus would do does not hit people over the head with bible quotes but speaks with compassion to them like Jesus did. I don't think Jesus ever won a sinner over by telling them they were going to hell in a hand basket. He dined and associated with sinners. In order to win people's souls and minds you have to be compassionate for their circumstances, which Jesus was."

You never said whether the person was sorry or not. We all do have inappropriate thoughts, but we arent all SORRY for them. If I think that for example God made me a nymphomaniac, I will think that any thought or action I take should be ok since I cant help it. If we refuse to acknowledge the wrong in our lives we CAN NOT be forgiven.

I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.

And you do what MOST Christians today do. You remake Christ into an image of your own choosing. If the sinner was unrepentant and hard of heart, Jesus would not sit down with them. Jesus spoke kindly in some instances and Rudely in others. This is clearly documented in the bible. Jesus is Love. This doesnt mean that he is a pushover. Christ warned that when he returned he would come with a sword. And because he does love us and wishes us in heaven he paid the ultimate price so that anyone who was willing could come to him even though we are ALL deserving of death.

You would make God the bad guy? Many people REFUSE to believe in God. Others refuse to live for him. If a person refuses God and they go to hell, how is that a sign of an unloving God?

This is exactly like a person who rapes and kills 2 women in Texas crying for getting the death penalty. They knew that if they were caught, they would get the death penalty. If you commit the crime anyway, you have asked for death.

In the end we are ALL responsible for our own deeds, good and bad. We live in an extremely permissive soceity that wants to blame something that happens on someone, ANYONE. When a person shoots 10 other people, you can blame the gun company or the person they bought the gun from. You could blame the gunmens parents etc etc. But the truth is this, the person who pulled the trigger made a free will choice and is the ONLY ONE TO BLAME.

And I hit people over the head with bible verses as you put it because I believe that time is short. We are in teh end times, the world as we know it cannot keep on goingthe way it is. I dont have time to say everything in a way that EVERYONE will be ok with. I use the bible, I dont get ugly but I wont tip toe around issues either.

You admitted that you had your own opinions on who Christ was/is. I dont have opinions on Christ I know him. If you read the bible you will find some amazing things that Jesus said and did that most people ignore.

freeby4me
06-27-2007, 05:06 AM
"I dont have opinions on Christ I know him."

Well big congrats to you....does this mean we have to think and act like you to "know Christ"?? No thanx, I think i'll pass. I have a little more respect for me and for others than that. Before you start jumping me for saying that, why dont you look at WHY I have that reaction. Dont you wonder why you seem to be the only "true christian" around, why no one else agrees with you?? Seriously, perhaps you're going about this in the wrong way.

LI Mama
06-27-2007, 06:00 AM
Sure, he was compassionate, he wanted EVERYONE to come to the church and give money. He did not care about your soul. If he did he wouldnt just slap you with the bible but he would show you from the bible what God has to say about your "lifestyle". Any sex outside of marriage is sin, and God only recognizes one type of marriage. By the way, so does the AWESOME catholic church. They dont support your right to be gay or marry anymore than I do. But individuals from the Catholic Faith might. Dont be deceived.

Why do you hate The Church so much? I'm asking sincerely, not to be snarky. You have so much anger, it's odd.

LI Mama
06-27-2007, 06:05 AM
I do feel EVER SO MUCH BETTER, now that I have refuted your statements. I swipe at the Catholic church often because it scares the hell out of me that the largest "CHRISTIAN" church in the world really isnt Christian and that MANY of its followers may go to hell because they have never heard the plan of Salvation from its Leaders.

:rolleyes: You know nothing about The Church, so your opinions are worthless. :shrug



I applaude you that you dont agree with everything your church says, but doesnt that imply that they are wrong? How can the Church be wrong? And you are actually disagreeing with God now...Pretty bad habit.

Save your applause. The thought that you might agree with me on a spiritual matter makes me queasy.

The Church can be wrong because it's made up of people, and people are not perfect. I'm not disagreeing with God, I'm disagreeing with a book written by men. Big difference.

LI Mama
06-27-2007, 06:07 AM
And how many of you kept going? If any did I am sure they eventually gave money.

Whatever you need to tell yourself.

People in Hollywood shouldnt bother to marry ever so this is a pretty weak shot.

Have a good day.

No one has to give money to The Church. We don't charge admission. They pass a collection plate, where people are free to give or not according to what they can afford.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 06:52 AM
Originally Posted by DtroitPunk
This was a generalization, but it DOES happen. I KNOW several children who were abused who went on to abuse others. This is commonly known in psychology

http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#mentalillness

Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.

janelle
06-27-2007, 12:25 PM
I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.
================================================== ========


WHAT? They WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks. :rolleyes:

LOL, sorta putting yourself on the same plain as God there aren't you Sparky?

Whatever God thinks WILL BE what happens. He is our judge, no one else, no matter how important someone else thinks their opinion is.

Also, please tell us what our plan for salvation is since the church does not know. This should be interesting. :)

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 02:48 PM
I have no generalized anger toward the Catholic Church, I have not nor do I personally know anyone who has ben victimized or misled by them. That being said I take pretty fierce stands against illegal immigration, and I dont hate foreigners. I abhor abortion, but I dont hate women who make that mistake, etc etc. You are obviously upset that I come out strong against the "CHURCH" but please dont mistake my opposition to a Church that claims to be Christian that does MANY things in opposition to the Bible as anything so unworthy as hate. And I dont think anyone reading what you quoted from me would say that I was being angry, irrational or hateful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DtroitPunk
Sure, he was compassionate, he wanted EVERYONE to come to the church and give money. He did not care about your soul. If he did he wouldnt just slap you with the bible but he would show you from the bible what God has to say about your "lifestyle". Any sex outside of marriage is sin, and God only recognizes one type of marriage. By the way, so does the AWESOME catholic church. They dont support your right to be gay or marry anymore than I do. But individuals from the Catholic Faith might. Dont be deceived.

Why do you hate The Church so much? I'm asking sincerely, not to be snarky. You have so much anger, it's odd.

Bubblescc
06-27-2007, 02:52 PM
I'm with DtroitPunk :p

me too......

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:10 PM
"I dont have opinions on Christ I know him."

Well big congrats to you....does this mean we have to think and act like you to "know Christ"?? No thanx, I think i'll pass. I have a little more respect for me and for others than that. Before you start jumping me for saying that, why dont you look at WHY I have that reaction. Dont you wonder why you seem to be the only "true christian" around, why no one else agrees with you?? Seriously, perhaps you're going about this in the wrong way.

Hopefully you will be willing to expand on this so there can be some real debate? If what I am showing people from the bible is true, which noone yet has proven it is not, I guess you would want to think a little more like me. This is not vanity, I pay a price nearly everyday for the stands I take. It would be much easier to never have strong opinions and to ignore the weak liberal opinions of others. You say that you respect yourself and others too much, well so do I. I respect myself to much to spend my time ignoring the truths I have been shown from the word, and I respect others too much to let them go to hell (or through inaction lead others there) without at least trying to intervene.

And I certainly doubt I am the ONLY true Christian around as there have been a few people willing to risk ridicule by coming to my defense here. So SOME people agree with me. And lets be honest popular opinion doesnt mean truth.

And I dont wonder at all that most people disagree with me. Most people want to go with the flow and be liked. They are unwilling to take controversial, unpopular stands. The bible teaches us that if we call ourselves by the name of Christ we will be hated this teaching is throughout the bible but this one verse should serve John 15:18-19

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

And we are told we are not doing Gods work if everyone likes us. See Luke 6:26

26Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

So no It doesnt surprise me that MOst people think I am wrong or that transgendered, gay etc people Love the Catholic church as I could predict both of these things from the bible.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:15 PM
:rolleyes: You know nothing about The Church, so your opinions are worthless. :shrug




Save your applause. The thought that you might agree with me on a spiritual matter makes me queasy.

The Church can be wrong because it's made up of people, and people are not perfect. I'm not disagreeing with God, I'm disagreeing with a book written by men. Big difference.

Wow! My opinions are worthless, and an agreement with me makes you queasy? Whos the angry one here? I know PLENTY about the church as I have shown over and over and NOT ONE catholic can show me I am wrong. The Catechism in many points DOES NOT agree with the bible! And you disagree with the bible which was basically dictated by the spirit through man, but you would die for the Catechism written and revised to CONTROL man. Which book do you really think was written by man? The Holy Bible or the Catechism?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:18 PM
No one has to give money to The Church. We don't charge admission. They pass a collection plate, where people are free to give or not according to what they can afford.

This was a pointless post, it didnt even touch what I said. Most churches dont charge admission, the point is if some of those people kept going they must have felt comfortable and probably did DONATE.

If you cannot post RELEVANT comments to my posts I will start ignoring you.

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:25 PM
I think if you do some research you will find lots of gays falling away from the Catholic church because of their views on homosexual sex they are not drawn to it.

There is a ministry for gays in the church teaching gays to try to abstain from sex and there are gays taking advantage of it. My friends go to a support group sponsored by the church since their son is gay and living the gay lifestyle but they are not in a group that tells parents just accept their son for his gayness.

They are taught to pray for him but not to judge him. That is God's domain.

What would you do if your son turned out to be gay?

If we learn nothing else from the bible we should learn how to love even when it hurts. Not love the sin but love the sinner.

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:28 PM
Wow! My opinions are worthless, and an agreement with me makes you queasy? Whos the angry one here? I know PLENTY about the church as I have shown over and over and NOT ONE catholic can show me I am wrong. The Catechism in many points DOES NOT agree with the bible! And you disagree with the bible which was basically dictated by the spirit through man, but you would die for the Catechism written and revised to CONTROL man. Which book do you really think was written by man? The Holy Bible or the Catechism?

You believe this because you go to those radical, hateful web site against the Church. Why not go to a good source? And we put the bible above the Catechism not the other way around just like other Christians do with the commentaries on the bible they read.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:32 PM
I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.
================================================== ========


WHAT? They WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks. :rolleyes:

LOL, sorta putting yourself on the same plain as God there aren't you Sparky?

Whatever God thinks WILL BE what happens. He is our judge, no one else, no matter how important someone else thinks their opinion is.

Also, please tell us what our plan for salvation is since the church does not know. This should be interesting. :)

OK, first off God doesnt want ANYONE to go to hell, but he made a path for people to be redeemed, if someone will not walk the path even though God wishes them in heaven they will go to hell. Do you understand now or are you trying to be deliberately obtuse:slap

I do not place myself on a level with God, however I do try to have the mind of God which the bible tells us to do ALL through the bible see Philippians 2:4-6
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

My OPINIONS arent the issue here. If it were only my opinion you wouldnt feel the need to TRY so desperately to argue them away. You KNOW that according to the bible my opinions are correct. You can offer different views but you CAN NOT support them From the Bible.

And if you honestly wanted to know the plan of salvation I would show you, but since you are being funny why dont you go ask the person who is PAID to care for your soul. I would be willing to bet that your priest couldnt tell you.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 03:32 PM
This was a pointless post, it didnt even touch what I said. Most churches dont charge admission, the point is if some of those people kept going they must have felt comfortable and probably did DONATE.

If you cannot post RELEVANT comments to my posts I will start ignoring you.

You said the reason the Priest invited us was so we would donate money. That more than implied that the only reason we were invited was because he wanted money for the Church.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 03:34 PM
And if you honestly wanted to know the plan of salvation I would show you, but since you are being funny why dont you go ask the person who is PAID to care for your soul. I would be willing to bet that your priest couldnt tell you.

There it is again the implication that the only reason the Priest is there is for financial gain.

freeby4me
06-27-2007, 03:37 PM
There it is again the implication that the only reason the Priest is there is for financial gain.

Actually I got that only He (dtroitpunk) could possibly tell you the plan of salvation...

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle
I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.
================================================== ========


Yikes, I did not say that, you said that. Don't put your words in my mouth. Please learn how to use the quote button.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:38 PM
You believe this because you go to those radical, hateful web site against the Church. Why not go to a good source? And we put the bible above the Catechism not the other way around like other Christians do with the commentaries on the bible they read.

I understand what you are saying, but its just not true. I went to one site that did turn out to have some very hateful views on the Catholic church, but that site also did DIRECT comparisons of the Catechism with the Bible. It pointed out numerous points where the two do not agree.

YOU KNOW THIS. You and everyone else I have discussed this with have been literally UNABLE to explain these inconsistencies.

I have also asked for a GOOD source that compares the bible and the Catechism to no avail. I will not spend the time to study the Catechism in its entirety. YOU as a Catholic should be able to answer my questions.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle
I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.
================================================== ========


Yikes, I did not say that, you said that. Don't put your words in my mouth. Please learn how to use the quote button.


WOW, now your just being dumb. You know that that was what I SAID. I posted what I had said and what you had replied to give a narrative. Why not actually try to debate what I said?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:41 PM
There it is again the implication that the only reason the Priest is there is for financial gain.

Wrong, I am saying that it is the priests JOB to care for the souls of his flock.

You people keep on twisting my words in a vain attempt to make me look unreasonable in the hopes that maybe people will forget that you havent debated my points.

freeby4me
06-27-2007, 03:42 PM
WOW, now your just being dumb. You know that that was what I SAID. I posted what I had said and what you had replied to give a narrative. Why not actually try to debate what I said?

Maybe because we're rather laid back here (most of us) and we dont spend our lives looking for people to harass and shove bible quotes down their throats.
Seriously, just lighten up a little and calling someone dumb isnt going to help....

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:43 PM
Actually I got that only He (dtroitpunk) could possibly tell you the plan of salvation...

Also wrong, ANY born again bible believer could show you from the bible the plan of salvation. You must get paid a lot of money for reading minds during street fairs and the like.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 03:43 PM
Wrong, I am saying that it is the priests JOB to care for the souls of his flock.

You people keep on twisting my words in a vain attempt to make me look unreasonable in the hopes that maybe people will forget that you havent debated my points.

No that was you that said to let him do what he is PAID to do. You didn't say let him do what he is there for, and yet again, you haven't made a point to debate.

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:44 PM
OK, first off God doesnt want ANYONE to go to hell, but he made a path for people to be redeemed, if someone will not walk the path even though God wishes them in heaven they will go to hell. Do you understand now or are you trying to be deliberately obtuse:slap

I do not place myself on a level with God, however I do try to have the mind of God which the bible tells us to do ALL through the bible see Philippians 2:4-6
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

My OPINIONS arent the issue here. If it were only my opinion you wouldnt feel the need to TRY so desperately to argue them away. You KNOW that according to the bible my opinions are correct. You can offer different views but you CAN NOT support them From the Bible.

And if you honestly wanted to know the plan of salvation I would show you, but since you are being funny why dont you go ask the person who is PAID to care for your soul. I would be willing to bet that your priest couldnt tell you.


No one but God can have the mind of God. And I did want to know your version of salvation but maybe you are being obtuse since you do not give it.

I already have been given the plan of salvation by my church but was just interested in your version.

Your opinions are all your own, I haven't heard them anywhere else.:)

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:50 PM
Wrong, I am saying that it is the priests JOB to care for the souls of his flock.

You people keep on twisting my words in a vain attempt to make me look unreasonable in the hopes that maybe people will forget that you havent debated my points.

Priests have a vocation, not a job. They take a vow of poverty so they are not obligated to collect money.
Doesnt matter to them if they collect a dollar or a million they will still go back to their plain rectory and their same old car. I don't think you know what you think you know.

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:53 PM
WOW, now your just being dumb. You know that that was what I SAID. I posted what I had said and what you had replied to give a narrative. Why not actually try to debate what I said?

I sure does not look that way. As I said, please learn how to use the quote button correctly so it doesn't end up looking like I said what you said. People do not have time to read through the whole thread.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 03:54 PM
http://www.apa.org/topics/orientation.html#mentalillness

Is Homosexuality a Mental Illness or Emotional Problem?

No. Psychologists, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals agree that homosexuality is not an illness, mental disorder or an emotional problem. Over 35 years of objective, well-designed scientific research has shown that homosexuality, in and itself,is not associated with mental disorders or emotional or social problems. Homosexuality was once thought to be a mental illness because mental health professionals and society had biased information. In the past the studies of gay, lesbian and bisexual people involved only those in therapy, thus biasing the resulting conclusions. When researchers examined data about these people who were not in therapy, the idea that homosexuality was a mental illness was quickly found to be untrue.


In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association confirmed the importance of the new, better designed research and removed homosexuality from the official manual that lists mental and emotional disorders. Two years later, the American Psychological Association passed a resolution supporting the removal. For more than 25 years, both associations have urged all mental health professionals to help dispel the stigma of mental illness that some people still associate with homosexual orientation.


I am not going to say that this is wrong, however common sense alone tells you that there is a psychological component to all this. Why do so many gay men want to act like and emulate women? If a man just was aroused by men and wanted sex with men, That is one thing but they arent attracted by women they want to basically BE WOMEN. Nope, nothing wrong with these folks. And why do so many Lesbians butch up? Sometimes they actually look like men. And please do a little more research, I have this link from

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which tells how some abused children go on to abuse others or become prostitutes etc etc.

http://www.aacap.org/page.ww?section=Facts+for+Families&name=Child+Sexual+Abuse

Part of this research is being pushed by a liberal agenda. In another 10 years we could be living in a soceity that says heterosexuality is the psychiatric disease. After all we are all just animals and should all by nature be at least bi, right. So morality should have no bearing on the discussion as there is no God and lots of animals display homosexual behaviors. This kind of thinking could go far with Darwinists, socialists, ateists etc etc.

janelle
06-27-2007, 03:59 PM
I understand what you are saying, but its just not true. I went to one site that did turn out to have some very hateful views on the Catholic church, but that site also did DIRECT comparisons of the Catechism with the Bible. It pointed out numerous points where the two do not agree.

YOU KNOW THIS. You and everyone else I have discussed this with have been literally UNABLE to explain these inconsistencies.

I have also asked for a GOOD source that compares the bible and the Catechism to no avail. I will not spend the time to study the Catechism in its entirety. YOU as a Catholic should be able to answer my questions.

You have said the same hateful site did a comparison on the bible and the Caechism. Not a good reference but you will believe them and you know they are hateful. DUH.

I have searched for a web site to give comparisons but have not as yet found one. I would refer you directly to the Catechism but know you will not read it. Why make it so hard? Just to stir up more debate?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:00 PM
Priests have a vocation, not a job. They take a vow of poverty so they are not obligated to collect money.
Doesnt matter to them if they collect a dollar or a million they will still go back to their plain rectory and their same old car. I don't think you know what you think you know.

Yes it is a vocation, but the priests are PAID so it is a job as well. They are given money, food, clothing allowances etc. And most priests have enough money for tobacco and Wine or liquor so how are they poor.

Dont try to tell me what I know.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:07 PM
You have said the same hateful site did a comparison on the bible and the Caechism. Not a good reference but you will believe them and you know they are hateful. DUH.

I have searched for a web site to give comparisons but have not as yet found one. I would refer you directly to the Catechism but know you will not read it. Why make it so hard? Just to stir up more debate?

Thi shas been discussed before. Just because the site is hateful, which by the way the pages I linked to ARE NOT, doesnt mean that all the information on it is false.

In fact where they quote the Catechism, they used pg numbers and everything. So the site may be ran by people hateful to the Catholic Church, but they didnt make up anything!

This has been discussed SEVERAL times I asked people to show me if the Catechism they used was erroneous etc.

No reply! If I use the same Catechism book they used I will find the SAME inconsistencies.

You are deliberately obfuscating the truth.

You dont know how to defend the Catechism or the "CHURCH" so you have to make me look like I have a bias and agenda in the hopes that others wont hear my message.

This is getting sad.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:10 PM
I sure does not look that way. As I said, please learn how to use the quote button correctly so it doesn't end up looking like I said what you said. People do not have time to read through the whole thread.

I know how to use the quote button. I just like to do things my own way sometimes.

I have shown you that I know how to do it the way you like, now get over it because I will post the way I like.

And you are right some people will not go back and see what I said that you replied to and I want them to have a context so they see how silly you look.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:11 PM
Regardless of what some people think I do know how to use the quote button.

You would think with all the things said here there would be something better to focus on.

janelle
06-27-2007, 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by janelle
I wouldnt have ANYONE go to hell. Neither would God, but if a homosexual is sexually active or thinks about gay sex and doesnt repent of it they WILL go to hell regardless of what I or God thinks.
================================================== ========


Yikes, I did not say that, you said that. Don't put your words in my mouth. Please learn how to use the quote button.

That top quote sure looks like I am being quoted. I did not or would I ever say that. What God thinks IS what will happen. He is our creator, no one else, and what he thinks will happen.

Just wanted to clarify that with the others reading this thread.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 04:30 PM
I am not going to say that this is wrong, however common sense alone tells you that there is a psychological component to all this. Why do so many gay men want to act like and emulate women? If a man just was aroused by men and wanted sex with men, That is one thing but they arent attracted by women they want to basically BE WOMEN. Nope, nothing wrong with these folks. And why do so many Lesbians butch up? Sometimes they actually look like men. And please do a little more research, I have this link from

The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, which tells how some abused children go on to abuse others or become prostitutes etc etc.

http://www.aacap.org/page.ww?section=Facts+for+Families&name=Child+Sexual+Abuse

The first part is just a bunch of sterotypes, and second alot of kids who are abused adapt move on and live normal lives. Alot of kids who were raised by loving parents turn out to be predjudice bigots and act out in violence. And the AACAP has a whooping 7500 members, and 5 years of research to back up their claims.


Part of this research is being pushed by a liberal agenda. In another 10 years we could be living in a soceity that says heterosexuality is the psychiatric disease. After all we are all just animals and should all by nature be at least bi, right. So morality should have no bearing on the discussion as there is no God and lots of animals display homosexual behaviors. This kind of thinking could go far with Darwinists, socialists, ateists etc etc.


You're republican right?
http://online.logcabin.org/
Log Cabin Republicans is the nation's largest organization of Republicans who support fairness, freedom, and equality for gay and lesbian Americans. Log Cabin has state and local chapters nationwide, full-time staff in California, New York City, and Washington, DC, and a federal political action committee.

Log Cabin Republicans work to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on gay and lesbian issues. Equality will be impossible to achieve without Republican votes. Working from inside the Party—educating other Republicans about gay and lesbian issues—is the most effective way to gain new Republican allies for equality. Log Cabin also exists as a voice for GOP values among members of the gay and lesbian community.


See it's more than just "liberals" and democrats who fight for equal rights.

suprtruckr
06-27-2007, 04:35 PM
If we learn nothing else from the bible we should learn how to love even when it hurts. Not love the sin but love the sinner.
i was taught that from a very young age and i'm not even catholic



Wrong, I am saying that it is the priests JOB to care for the souls of his flock.

just the same as it is for ANY pastor or preacher or minister whatever you call them

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:46 PM
i was taught that from a very young age and i'm not even catholic

just the same as it is for ANY pastor or preacher or minister whatever you call them
As was I but you dont love the sinner if they WONT walk away from the sin by enabling them. You are to love them by telling them what God says and how to get right with him and offering your help if they will try to live for him.

Exactly, my point is that MOST catholic priests do not preach messages on salvation. And for any priest, minister or whatever this should be the #1 agenda.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 04:49 PM
The first part is just a bunch of sterotypes, and second alot of kids who are abused adapt move on and live normal lives. Alot of kids who were raised by loving parents turn out to be predjudice bigots and act out in violence. And the AACAP has a whooping 7500 members, and 5 years of research to back up their claims.




You're republican right?
http://online.logcabin.org/
Log Cabin Republicans is the nation's largest organization of Republicans who support fairness, freedom, and equality for gay and lesbian Americans. Log Cabin has state and local chapters nationwide, full-time staff in California, New York City, and Washington, DC, and a federal political action committee.

Log Cabin Republicans work to make the Republican Party more inclusive, particularly on gay and lesbian issues. Equality will be impossible to achieve without Republican votes. Working from inside the Party—educating other Republicans about gay and lesbian issues—is the most effective way to gain new Republican allies for equality. Log Cabin also exists as a voice for GOP values among members of the gay and lesbian community.


See it's more than just "liberals" and democrats who fight for equal rights.


Yes I am ideologically a republican, but only because as a whole they support a more conservative agenda. Any republican that supports gay marriage or illiegal immigration is by definition a liberal, so not all liberals are Democrats. I vote my conscience and if a Democrat is closer to representing my ideals I WILL vote democratic.

janelle
06-27-2007, 04:53 PM
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.4marks.com/education/?referrer_code=google_4m&campaign_code=p_education_catechism2_ad1

And I could post on and on. You may not like any of these since you are determined it is wrong but have you ever really read the book you are criticising? It IS based on the bible.

janelle
06-27-2007, 04:59 PM
Exactly, my point is that MOST catholic priests do not preach messages on salvation. And for any priest, minister or whatever this should be the #1 agenda.

That is blatantly wrong. If you never hear priests' sermons in church how can you say this? From your own biases?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 05:27 PM
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/ccc.html

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

http://www.4marks.com/education/?referrer_code=google_4m&campaign_code=p_education_catechism2_ad1

And I could post on and on. You may not like any of these since you are determined it is wrong but have you ever really read the book you are criticising? It IS based on the bible.

Ok I followed one of your links and spent just a few minutes reading and found this here

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm#II

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

This is justified in the bible how? By MAry saying that she would always be called blessed? This is her acknowledging what a blessing it was to be asked to carry the son of God. This does not eguate to a place of special reverance. Mary wasnt the only woman who could have fullfilled this role.

This is just one example of things the Catholic church hold as Doctrine that were made up by men and unsupported by the Bible.

What about Joseph? What kind of man does it take to have a wife Pregnant with a child not his own? To not touch her until she had given birth?

Although the Catholic church would have us believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin who NEVER had sex with Joseph! The bible itself shows this to be untrue.

My wife actually pointed this out. Why should Mary hold a place of such respect and reverance when Joseph is basically ignored?

The thing is had I the time I could find Literally hundreds of examples like the one above from YOUR links to the catechism. Most of the Catechism is supported by the scripture exactly as I have shown above TENUOUSLY.


ten·u·ous(tny-s)
adj.
1. Long and thin; slender: tenuous strands.
2. Having a thin consistency; dilute.
3. Having little substance; flimsy: a tenuous argument

kate
06-27-2007, 06:23 PM
My OPINIONS arent the issue here. If it were only my opinion you wouldnt feel the need to TRY so desperately to argue them away. You KNOW that according to the bible my opinions are correct. You can offer different views but you CAN NOT support them From the Bible.

We have tried to support views form the Bible to YOU, and your OPINION, they aren't worthy. It is YOUR OPINION of what the Bible says. Whether you read it literally or not it is still YOUR opinion. You cannot and do not know God's true intent other than through your reading of the Bible. When I read it I see something and have been shown something completely different. You can feel that I am wrong but you cannot know, for sure, that I am wrong. Unless you are God on earth there is NO WAY that you can be 100% certain of anything other than you believe it to be true. You cannot KNOW it to be true.

kate
06-27-2007, 06:28 PM
This is just one example of things the Catholic church hold as Doctrine that were made up by men and unsupported by the Bible.

Although the Catholic church would have us believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin who NEVER had sex with Joseph! The bible itself shows this to be untrue.



I actually addressed this biblically and using understanding of Jewish law and customs at the time but YOU ignored that. Until you actually read and think about what is being posted I think it is rather comical to hear that "we" aren't providing you with a good debate. I call BS on that one. We have provided scripture and when I have you have blatantly ignored it.

janelle
06-27-2007, 06:50 PM
Ok I followed one of your links and spent just a few minutes reading and found this here

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm#II

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

This is justified in the bible how? By MAry saying that she would always be called blessed? This is her acknowledging what a blessing it was to be asked to carry the son of God. This does not eguate to a place of special reverance. Mary wasnt the only woman who could have fullfilled this role.

This is just one example of things the Catholic church hold as Doctrine that were made up by men and unsupported by the Bible.

What about Joseph? What kind of man does it take to have a wife Pregnant with a child not his own? To not touch her until she had given birth?

Although the Catholic church would have us believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin who NEVER had sex with Joseph! The bible itself shows this to be untrue.

My wife actually pointed this out. Why should Mary hold a place of such respect and reverence when Joseph is basically ignored?

The thing is had I the time I could find Literally hundreds of examples like the one above from YOUR links to the catechism. Most of the Catechism is supported by the scripture exactly as I have shown above TENUOUSLY.


ten·u·ous(tny-s)
adj.
1. Long and thin; slender: tenuous strands.
2. Having a thin consistency; dilute.
3. Having little substance; flimsy: a tenuous argument

DP thank you for taking the time to read a little bit of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Let me see if I can help you understand from the scriptures where you have misunderstood the teaching of the Church as you quoted from the Catechism.

1st, while it is true that Mary says “from now on will all ages call me blessed” Luke 1:48, others also said that she was blessed. The angel Gabriel says “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you” Luke 1:28 and Elizabeth says it “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” Luke 1:43.

We could also go into more discussion about the how the Old Testament supports this same teaching as well. The Ark of the Covenant was revered by the Jewish people because it contained the scrolls of the ten commandments. In fact, years later when it was found by King David he had soldiers try to move it. The soldiers all died because the Ark of the Covenant was to only be touched by the Priest, the Levites. Mary is the Ark of the new Covenant. She is the one honored to be the temple for the Incarnate Word, Jesus the Christ. As such, she is "Blessed among women" and "all generations call her blessed". We have to follow the scriptures. We cannot deny the special place given to Mary by God. It does not matter whether we think others could have had that honer. God chose Mary to be the temple of His Christ, our salvation.

Joseph is also honored by the Church but he was not the temple of the Christ. Mary was the first disciple.

Your other points are also misguided but since you have not taken those positions from the Catechism we will only address what you have taken.

Posted by Janelle's Husband.

PS, if you would like to continue an intelligent discussion on this subject or any other teachings of the Church from the Catechism then I will be please to get an account.

pepperpot
06-27-2007, 06:59 PM
I am not a Starbuck's fan for many reasons......(and forgive me I couldn't bring myself to read this entire thread). But I do not have respect for a company that over charges, disrespects the public and wants to instigate for the sole purpose of making a buck with such blatant disregard. I refuse to patronize their stores, my own personal boycott.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 08:48 PM
We have tried to support views form the Bible to YOU, and your OPINION, they aren't worthy. It is YOUR OPINION of what the Bible says. Whether you read it literally or not it is still YOUR opinion. You cannot and do not know God's true intent other than through your reading of the Bible. When I read it I see something and have been shown something completely different. You can feel that I am wrong but you cannot know, for sure, that I am wrong. Unless you are God on earth there is NO WAY that you can be 100% certain of anything other than you believe it to be true. You cannot KNOW it to be true.


HMM, who is we? You have NEVER used the bible to even TRY to debate me instead you just keep saying that Neither of us knows who is right.

Here is what you said in the other thread.

"DP, it's all comes down to interpretation. When I read my bible and when I look to the catechism I don't see that they dont' line up. Remember, as I stated I've been down the fundamentalist, literalist path. I don't see the things that you see or that that site see. I see it differently. I read the Bible differently. I see that it says different things than it does for you.

The thing is NEITHER of us know if the other's understanding is correct. What we do know is that our path is the one we've been led down. Some day we'll know what the TRUTH is. Until then I'm comfortable with my beliefs. I'm comfortable with the feeling that I think they are correct. I'm comfortable reading the Bible and seeing what the Church Father's saw. I'm comfortable looking to the Catechism when I am unsure about something.

I took things and broke them down some posts back. I won't be attacking each part of that site idea by idea because it frustrates me to a point where I don't feel I'm being a good follower of Christ. You are more than welcome to feel I'm misguided but I don't need your answers. I have found my own with God's help."

Throughout your writing you admit that you read the Bible the way YOU want to and it says different things to you then it does to me. How CONVENIENT. There are things in the bible I dont particularly care for, but when that happens I submit to God, you choose to re-interpret. You have as much as admitted this. The bible DOES NOT say different things to different people. If it truly did, what would be the point? How could anyone know the truth if the whole Bible is open to private interpretation?

This is precisely why there are so many different Christian religions, because everyone has a different interpretation of the Bible.

And it doesnt even matter what you say because you dont believe the bible is literal, so therefore there is no ultimate truth only our opinions.

Because I do accept the bible literally, MOST of the bible speaks in plain english to me. When Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life and no man comes unto the father but by me....

HOW MANY meanings can that have? words have meanings. And if you read the bible and accept it you can KNOW a great many things without having to form OPINIONS.

And no one knows anything with 100% certainty. I might be in a coma right know dreaming this debate, but I am reasonably certain I am not.

Just as I have been covinced of the Validity and truth of the bible. It is the preserved word of God and I place my faith in its promises daily. How someone can claim to believe in Christ for salvation and deny the very writings that teach us about him I dont know.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 08:55 PM
Ok, fair enough. YOU believe that you have always been gay. Lets be honest though, you being gay probably know several other gay people. Statictically most people arent gay from childhood,I am curious where you are getting your statictis? Because I believe they are incorrect. I am just wondering if this is just your thought, not actually true statistics. but something at some point TURNS them GayThis created me a true chuckle..thank you. I am so sure that the hundreds of gays whom have been beaten to death or near death, suffered because they seen something and it turned them gay and they choose to be this way. That is just ridiculous.. And the point I was making is many people start off as sexual opportunists and then call themselves gay. I totally understand the difference between sex and sexuality.

And according to the bible any gay is a deviant. This is not me making up stuff because I hate gays. This being said, I am a very content individual with a good life. A wife, 2 boys and numerous interests. I dont demean others. And I dont need the approval of anyone on this forum. I certainly dont need you, or to demean you to give MY life meaning.

And trust me I can give ALL day long, AND I can take ANYTHING you can dish out. Because I know I am right. I guarantee if you want to make this ugly that YOU will be the one asking for the MODS to intervene.What a wonderful way to influence people and make friends...what a wonderful witness for the Lord...
We can agree to disagree, just realize that nearly everything I say is either from the Bible or I can back with the Bible. So you arent disagreeing with me you are disagreeing with God. Some people have a psychological imperative to steal. This doesnt mean that it is not sinful when they give into it. So just because you feel that you have always been gay, You still have the ultimate choice of whether you are going to act on impulses or not.

I apologize if you took my statements as abusive, but I had no idea that you were a Lesbian. I still wouldnt change one word I said though.

I was taught that the way to Heaven was forgiveness and acceptance. You ask for forgiveness and accept Christ as your personal savior. I didn't realize that one has to attack, belittle another human to get there because you think that is what Jesus would do. Then to attack the Catholic church. In one of your posts you said that the Catholic church was one of the largest Christian churches yet said it wasn't Christian. I am just curious did God give you and only you the right to pass Judgement on people?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 08:56 PM
DP thank you for taking the time to read a little bit of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Let me see if I can help you understand from the scriptures where you have misunderstood the teaching of the Church as you quoted from the Catechism.

1st, while it is true that Mary says “from now on will all ages call me blessed” Luke 1:48, others also said that she was blessed. The angel Gabriel says “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you” Luke 1:28 and Elizabeth says it “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” Luke 1:43.

We could also go into more discussion about the how the Old Testament supports this same teaching as well. The Ark of the Covenant was revered by the Jewish people because it contained the scrolls of the ten commandments. In fact, years later when it was found by King David he had soldiers try to move it. The soldiers all died because the Ark of the Covenant was to only be touched by the Priest, the Levites. Mary is the Ark of the new Covenant. She is the one honored to be the temple for the Incarnate Word, Jesus the Christ. As such, she is "Blessed among women" and "all generations call her blessed". We have to follow the scriptures. We cannot deny the special place given to Mary by God. It does not matter whether we think others could have had that honer. God chose Mary to be the temple of His Christ, our salvation.

Joseph is also honored by the Church but he was not the temple of the Christ. Mary was the first disciple.

Your other points are also misguided but since you have not taken those positions from the Catechism we will only address what you have taken.

Posted by Janelle's Husband.

PS, if you would like to continue an intelligent discussion on this subject or any other teachings of the Church from the Catechism then I will be please to get an account.

I will start here, all the verses you use DO NOT tell us to pray to mary or to make statues to mary etc etc. Yes the bible says she was blessed among women. How do we get to a form of worship from that? This is the type of thing that is done over and over. Interpreting the bible in a roughshod loose manner. I would relish you getting your own account, as I believe that these discussions serve a purpose. If nothing else they show just how dogmatic and adamant Catholics can be. You are shown that points in your faith do not line up with the bible and you would die before admitting it. I believe that the traditions and comfort of the Catholic church have created a sort of brainwashed army. People who are so deluded that they must FIND ways to justify ALL the practices of the "Church".

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 08:57 PM
And just for the record I am not Catholic. I think it is WRONG to say other churches are wrong. I would be afraid the Good Lord would strike me down.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 08:58 PM
Lasher are you an only child?

kate
06-27-2007, 09:02 PM
You are more than welcome to feel I'm misguided but I don't need your answers. I have found my own with God's help."
Shockingly enough so have I, imagine that.


How could anyone know the truth if the whole Bible is open to private interpretation?
No one can, that's my point. Because of the way in which the Bible was written, disseminated, and constructed no one can be certain that it is 100% accurate. It was written by men as a guideline for how to proceed in the early church. It contains so many important things but when one reads it one needs to take into consideration the time, customs, and words written as well as the language it was written in.



Because I do accept the bible literally, MOST of the bible speaks in plain english to me.
Well since it wasn't written in English it is possible there are mistranslations and misunderstandings. To simply read it in English and take it at face value, in my opinion, reduces God to lot less than he is.



Just as I have been covinced of the Validity and truth of the bible. It is the preserved word of God and I place my faith in its promises daily. How someone can claim to believe in Christ for salvation and deny the very writings that teach us about him I dont know.

I have never denied the writings of the Bible. I read them differently based upon the information and the guidance I have received. Yes, I am sure you feel I'm being misguided by the devil but I could argue the exact same thing.

I'm more than willing to debate with you any given scripture but you tend to run away when someone actually seems to have a valid point. You never did come back and argue the Mary doctrine and reasoning with me when I provided you with scripture and custom back up for my position.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 09:04 PM
Lasher are you an only child?

No. I have an older brother.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:05 PM
No. I have an older brother.

Is he gay?

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 09:08 PM
I was taught that the way to Heaven was forgiveness and acceptance. You ask for forgiveness and accept Christ as your personal savior. I didn't realize that one has to attack, belittle another human to get there because you think that is what Jesus would do. Then to attack the Catholic church. In one of your posts you said that the Catholic church was one of the largest Christian churches yet said it wasn't Christian. I am just curious did God give you and only you the right to pass Judgement on people?

I also was taught in a very similar fashion. No one said I had to attack or belittle anyone else. And in fact I have done no such thing. And Jesus did on occasion get pretty harsh with people. I BELIEVE that this was only when they wouldnt respond to loving correction. I have made numerous attempts to converse peaceably, but when I say controversial things people jump all over me. I am not afraid of a good debate, and I never back down if I know I am right, God tells ALL his people to judge rightly and to use the mind of christ. When you make a study of the history of the Catholic church you see a disturbing trend. A Christian church like a Christian should be judged by its fruits. There is much Good in the Catholic faith and Many good people in its church. There is also a legacy of corruption, abuse, greed and false doctrine.
I do no one any favors if I ignore what I know to be true.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 09:08 PM
Is he gay?

Nope.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:10 PM
Nope.

hmmm...well if he was raised with you then well this kinda kills the "I seen when a child" theory.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 09:13 PM
hmmm...well if he was raised with you then well this kinda kills the "I seen when a child" theory.

He was raised with me.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:20 PM
I also was taught in a very similar fashion. No one said I had to attack or belittle anyone else. And in fact I have done no such thing. And Jesus did on occasion get pretty harsh with people. I BELIEVE that this was only when they wouldnt respond to loving correction. I have made numerous attempts to converse peaceably, but when I say controversial things people jump all over me. I am not afraid of a good debate, and I never back down if I know I am right, God tells ALL his people to judge rightly and to use the mind of christ. When you make a study of the history of the Catholic church you see a disturbing trend. A Christian church like a Christian should be judged by its fruits. There is much Good in the Catholic faith and Many good people in its church. There is also a legacy of corruption, abuse, greed and false doctrine. I do no one any favors if I ignore what I know to be true.

This is true in ALL religions. I myself can not imagine trying to convience people that their religion is wrong and mine is right. As long as a person asks for forgiveness and accepts the Lord as their personal savior, and knows Jesus died for our sins and ask him into our hearts, and of course try to live as Jesus lived, then you can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. You don't get there nor do you get a gold crown for trying to prove your religion is correct and others are wrong. All you can do is be a good witness for the Lord, answer questions when asked and most importantly do not Judge. By doing this you are not saying you are in agreement with homosexuality, premartial sex (regardless of gender), or that you agree with abortion. You are simply saying I love Jesus, he is in my heart, my life is wonderful and I would like to share this tremendous feeling with you. Thats the best you can do. You get more flies with honey then you do with vinegar. You are not compromising your beliefs or morals, to offer support, understanding and love. You are actually making them all stronger. I will be honest with you, if I were a fence rider and came into this thread, your behavior toward the Catholic church would more than likely make me get off the fence, on the side completely away from your beliefs. Jesus is about love and forgiveness, as we should be modeling ourselves after him. God is love, plain and simple.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 09:25 PM
This is true in ALL religions. I myself can not imagine trying to convience people that their religion is wrong and mine is right. As long as a person asks for forgiveness and accepts the Lord as their personal savior, and knows Jesus died for our sins and ask him into our hearts, and of course try to live as Jesus lived, then you can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. You don't get there nor do you get a gold crown for trying to prove your religion is correct and others are wrong. All you can do is be a good witness for the Lord, answer questions when asked and most importantly do not Judge. By doing this you are not saying you are in agreement with homosexuality, premartial sex (regardless of gender), or that you agree with abortion. You are simply saying I love Jesus, he is in my heart, my life is wonderful and I would like to share this tremendous feeling with you. Thats the best you can do. You get more flies with honey then you do with vinegar. You are not compromising your beliefs or morals, to offer support, understanding and love. You are actually making them all stronger. I will be honest with you, if I were a fence rider and came into this thread, your behavior toward the Catholic church would more than likely make me get off the fence, on the side completely away from your beliefs. Jesus is about love and forgiveness, as we should be modeling ourselves after him. God is love, plain and simple.

:yeah

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:26 PM
He was raised with me.

well back to square one...lol.



Lasher, I for one appreciate you and your honesty throughout this thread. I know it can't always be easy for you. HUGS!!! Your sex life is none of my business as my sex life is none of yours. I can not or will not tell you that you shall burn in hell as I am a mere tiny soul, battling the evil ways of the world daily trying to earn myself a spot in Heaven above. I have no power or ability to judge anyone as I am human myself and have sin. I can tell you this, God loves you, Jesus loves you, and I love you and God forgives us all!!!

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 09:27 PM
I actually addressed this biblically and using understanding of Jewish law and customs at the time but YOU ignored that. Until you actually read and think about what is being posted I think it is rather comical to hear that "we" aren't providing you with a good debate. I call BS on that one. We have provided scripture and when I have you have blatantly ignored it.

I do recall someone doing what you say here, and I did read it. It was more twisting of the bible to suit peoples needs. When The bible says in Matthew 1:25 about Joseph

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

It is clear to me being a fair reader of the English language, that Joseph had no relations with Mary his wife untill she had given birth to Jesus who was her FIRSTBORN!!! The bible in mumerous other places talks about the family of Jesus, but Catholics twist that to mean generic brother in the lord type of stuff. Come on are we really to believe that Joseph agreed to marry Mary and NEVER slept with her.

And for the record I read everything here, and I checked ALL your posts in these 2 threads and YOU never posted this that I can find.

If you want to repost I promise you I can dismantle all your arguments if necessary.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 09:31 PM
well back to square one...lol.



Lasher, I for one appreciate you and your honesty throughout this thread. I know it can't always be easy for you. HUGS!!! Your sex life is none of my business as my sex life is none of yours. I can not or will not tell you that you shall burn in hell as I am a mere tiny soul, battling the evil ways of the world daily trying to earn myself a spot in Heaven above. I have no power or ability to judge anyone as I am human myself and have sin. I can tell you this, God loves you, Jesus loves you, and I love you and God forgives us all!!!

Thanks :)

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:33 PM
I do recall someone doing what you say here, and I did read it. It was more twisting of the bible to suit peoples needs. When The bible says in Matthew 1:25 about Joseph

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."

It is clear to me being a fair reader of the English language, that Joseph had no relations with Mary his wife untill she had given birth to Jesus who was her FIRSTBORN!!! The bible in mumerous other places talks about the family of Jesus, but Catholics twist that to mean generic brother in the lord type of stuff. Come on are we really to believe that Joseph agreed to marry Mary and NEVER slept with her.

And for the record I read everything here, and I checked ALL your posts in these 2 threads and YOU never posted this that I can find.

If you want to repost I promise you I can dismantle all your arguments if necessary.

Why? I understand we all have a passion as we can all see yours. I think it is wonderful that you are a male in todays society that will stand up for his Jesus. But to intentionally try to "dismantle" someones thoughts/beliefs is beyond me. Geesh lighten up a bit. You will not change their minds nor will they change yours. I am glad to see that there are still people out there loving the Lord with such passion, but please don't try to "destroy" someone to prove a point that is yours.
Again I must say I think it is wonderful that you are so passionate about the Lord, don't let it get lost in silliness.

YankeeMary
06-27-2007, 09:36 PM
I hate to leave this thread but morning comes early. Sleep well all. And God Bless us all.

DtroitPunk
06-27-2007, 09:36 PM
I am getting on with my life. Many of you know the bible but refuse to read it and believe it. I just dont have the time to argue with people who dont want to hear the truth.

I dont think I am special or anything, just willing to believe God and try to follow without interjecting my views and desires.

I have tried to keep a good HONEST debate going, but its hard when others insist that the bible can mean ANYTHING.

Many of you feel that I am wrong, but NONE of you make a persuasive argument from THE BIBLE.

The bible should be the beginning the middle and the end for Christians.

If you cant make an argument from Gods word you have no argument only an opinion.

I am going to go play guitar and relax.

If anyone wants to have a REAL, and honest debate or is willing to hear and learn from the bible I am always available.

But if you know that there is NOTHING that will change your beliefs, views and OPINIONS; not even Gods word then lets stop wasting each others time.

ADMIT that you are stubborn and unreasonable and let it go.

Jolie Rouge
06-27-2007, 09:52 PM
Starbucks to promote climate-change film
By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Business Writer 33 minutes ago

SEATTLE - Starbucks Corp. is planning a summer publicity blitz for "Arctic Tale," a movie about a walrus and a polar bear narrated by Queen Latifah, using posters and cup-holders that the company hopes will educate coffee drinkers about climate crisis.

Starbucks also hopes that this time around, customers will actually go see the movie. Last year, the coffeehouse chain linked up with Hollywood to promote "Akeelah and the Bee," but the feel-good movie about an inner city girl who makes it to a national spelling bee got a lukewarm reception at the box office in spite of fun vocabulary-word flash cards in Starbucks shops.

Kenneth Lombard, president of Starbucks Entertainment, said the company is planning a less subtle campaign for the "Arctic Tale" partnership with Paramount Classics, the Viacom Inc. studio behind Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," and National Geographic Films, which produced "March of the Penguins."

Starbucks will play the movie soundtrack, which features Ben Harper, Aimee Mann and the Shins, in stores. The company has also designated Aug. 15 a "National Day of Discussion," and plans to host in-store talks in some cities with environmental awareness groups such as Earth Watch and Global Green USA.

Starbucks said all three partners benefit financially but did not release specific details of the deal.

"Arctic Tale" is set to debut in selected theaters July 25, with a wide release planned for Aug. 17. Seela the walrus and Nanu the polar bear will start appearing in Starbucks stores July 31.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_en_bu/starbucks_movie_promotion;_ylt=Auke2cstWNYvtDXaW.j 9IwJxFb8C

janelle
06-27-2007, 10:09 PM
I will start here, all the verses you use DO NOT tell us to pray to mary or to make statues to mary etc etc. Yes the bible says she was blessed among women. How do we get to a form of worship from that? This is the type of thing that is done over and over. Interpreting the bible in a roughshod loose manner. I would relish you getting your own account, as I believe that these discussions serve a purpose. If nothing else they show just how dogmatic and adamant Catholics can be. You are shown that points in your faith do not line up with the bible and you would die before admitting it. I believe that the traditions and comfort of the Catholic church have created a sort of brainwashed army. People who are so deluded that they must FIND ways to justify ALL the practices of the "Church".

DP it is because of responses like the one you posted that I have copied that I do not have any real interest in debating with you. You see, Catholics do not worship Mary as you claim. That would be sacrilegious. Rather we honor her as the scriptures tell us to do. Remember the bible is telling us "All generations will call her blessed". That includes us. You and me.

Again, your other points are not from a position of the teachings of the Church so unless you get the teachings from the Catechism I will not respond to them

Please don't add the personal attacks. They do not help make your point. To the contrary, they are discrediting your position.

I do continue to keep you in my daily prayers as you seek to learn more about Christ's Church.

Posted by Janelle's husband.

Lasher
06-27-2007, 10:35 PM
Starbucks to promote climate-change film
By JESSICA MINTZ, AP Business Writer 33 minutes ago

SEATTLE - Starbucks Corp. is planning a summer publicity blitz for "Arctic Tale," a movie about a walrus and a polar bear narrated by Queen Latifah, using posters and cup-holders that the company hopes will educate coffee drinkers about climate crisis.

Starbucks also hopes that this time around, customers will actually go see the movie. Last year, the coffeehouse chain linked up with Hollywood to promote "Akeelah and the Bee," but the feel-good movie about an inner city girl who makes it to a national spelling bee got a lukewarm reception at the box office in spite of fun vocabulary-word flash cards in Starbucks shops.

Kenneth Lombard, president of Starbucks Entertainment, said the company is planning a less subtle campaign for the "Arctic Tale" partnership with Paramount Classics, the Viacom Inc. studio behind Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth," and National Geographic Films, which produced "March of the Penguins."

Starbucks will play the movie soundtrack, which features Ben Harper, Aimee Mann and the Shins, in stores. The company has also designated Aug. 15 a "National Day of Discussion," and plans to host in-store talks in some cities with environmental awareness groups such as Earth Watch and Global Green USA.

Starbucks said all three partners benefit financially but did not release specific details of the deal.

"Arctic Tale" is set to debut in selected theaters July 25, with a wide release planned for Aug. 17. Seela the walrus and Nanu the polar bear will start appearing in Starbucks stores July 31.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070628/ap_en_bu/starbucks_movie_promotion;_ylt=Auke2cstWNYvtDXaW.j 9IwJxFb8C

Akeelah and the Bee was a good movie, had that whole My Girl feel to it. Wasn't as much of a tear jerker as Second Hand Lions, but it was good.

kate
06-28-2007, 05:28 AM
I do recall someone doing what you say here, and I did read it. It was more twisting of the bible to suit peoples needs. When The bible says in Matthew 1:25 about Joseph

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus."
It is clear to me being a fair reader of the English language, that Joseph had no relations with Mary his wife untill she had given birth to Jesus who was her FIRSTBORN!!! The bible in mumerous other places talks about the family of Jesus, but Catholics twist that to mean generic brother in the lord type of stuff. Come on are we really to believe that Joseph agreed to marry Mary and NEVER slept with her.

And for the record I read everything here, and I checked ALL your posts in these 2 threads and YOU never posted this that I can find.

If you want to repost I promise you I can dismantle all your arguments if necessary.
Again, back to my same point. You are reading it in ENGLISH. It wasn't written in ENGLISH. Meansings of words are different and even though they may pick the closest word that doesn't mean it was the same. But I'm sure you also think Paul wrote all the books attributed to him :rolleyes

As for the argument about Mary, here is what I posted in the other thread.

Here is one argument against this, provided through newadvent.org

Quote:
The expression, "brethren of the Lord," is no argument whatever that Mary had other children besides Jesus. For the Jews used that expression of any near relatives, without intending necessarily the first degree of blood relationship. It was enough for people to be descendants of the same tribe to be called brethren. James was called the brother of Jesus. Yet we know that he was the son of Alphaeus, and Mary was certainly never the wife of Alphaeus. This James, also, was the blood brother of Jude. And Jude begins his epistle with the words, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and the brother of James." Here he is using the word brother in the strict sense, and knows that he cannot in that sense call himself the brother of Jesus Christ. Yet in the broad sense of the word, he is ranked amongst the kinsmen of Christ, as we know from Matthew 13:55, where the Gospel speaks of "His brethren James and Joseph, and Simon and Jude."
In addition one other argument can be made when using the event that happens at the crucifixtion when Jesus says to John in John 20:26-27 "When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." Then he said to the disciple, "Behold your mother." And from that hour the disciple took her into his home."

According to Jewish Tradition this would not have been necessary had Mary other children because the other children would have cared for Mary after the passing of Jesus. The fact that he had to give his mother to another actually points to her perpetual virginity.

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:38 AM
I have no generalized anger toward the Catholic Church, I have not nor do I personally know anyone who has ben victimized or misled by them. That being said I take pretty fierce stands against illegal immigration, and I dont hate foreigners. I abhor abortion, but I dont hate women who make that mistake, etc etc. You are obviously upset that I come out strong against the "CHURCH" but please dont mistake my opposition to a Church that claims to be Christian that does MANY things in opposition to the Bible as anything so unworthy as hate. And I dont think anyone reading what you quoted from me would say that I was being angry, irrational or hateful.


:shrug

If you say so. You seem very angry to me.

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:42 AM
Wow! My opinions are worthless, and an agreement with me makes you queasy? Whos the angry one here? I know PLENTY about the church as I have shown over and over and NOT ONE catholic can show me I am wrong. The Catechism in many points DOES NOT agree with the bible! And you disagree with the bible which was basically dictated by the spirit through man, but you would die for the Catechism written and revised to CONTROL man. Which book do you really think was written by man? The Holy Bible or the Catechism?

Yes, your opinions on The Church are worthless. You have no deisre to actually learn anything. You've taken misinformation and ran with it as gospel. We've shown you over and over and over where you're wrong, but you don't want to hear it. You're so caught up in your prejudice, you can't see the truth when it's looking you in the face.

Yes, you agreeing with me on a spiritual matter makes me queasy. You preach hatred and intolerance. I want no part of that, ever.

I would die for the Catechism? :rolleyes: Holy drama Batman. The Catechism is in line with The Bible and does not contradict scripture. You not wanting to believe that doesn't make it less true. :shrug I think both books were written by man. :)

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:43 AM
This was a pointless post, it didnt even touch what I said. Most churches dont charge admission, the point is if some of those people kept going they must have felt comfortable and probably did DONATE.

So? If they want to donate, they can. If they don't, they'll still be welcomed with open arms. What's your point?


If you cannot post RELEVANT comments to my posts I will start ignoring you.

:rolling

Do you always threaten people when backed into a corner?

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:45 AM
And if you honestly wanted to know the plan of salvation I would show you, but since you are being funny why dont you go ask the person who is PAID to care for your soul. I would be willing to bet that your priest couldnt tell you.

Right, this isn't at all hateful. :rolleyes:

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:47 AM
I understand what you are saying, but its just not true. I went to one site that did turn out to have some very hateful views on the Catholic church, but that site also did DIRECT comparisons of the Catechism with the Bible. It pointed out numerous points where the two do not agree.

YOU KNOW THIS. You and everyone else I have discussed this with have been literally UNABLE to explain these inconsistencies.

I have also asked for a GOOD source that compares the bible and the Catechism to no avail. I will not spend the time to study the Catechism in its entirety. YOU as a Catholic should be able to answer my questions.

That site had a clear agenda against The Church. Would you trust www.ihateIslam.com to tell you the truth about Islam? Or would you think they had an agenda and were probably biased?

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:49 AM
Wrong, I am saying that it is the priests JOB to care for the souls of his flock.

You people keep on twisting my words in a vain attempt to make me look unreasonable in the hopes that maybe people will forget that you havent debated my points.

It is his job, and yes, he's paid for it. He does need to, you know, eat, clothe himself, etc. Does the pastor of your church work for free? Every religion pays the people working for them. So what?

suprtruckr
06-28-2007, 07:50 AM
dp go back to this post http://www.bigbigforums.com/religion-prayers/546290-starbuck-cup-quote-offensive-7.html#post95613596 and edit that quote area to show where you commented on a PART of MY quote so it don't look like i said what you did

LI Mama
06-28-2007, 07:54 AM
Exactly, my point is that MOST catholic priests do not preach messages on salvation. And for any priest, minister or whatever this should be the #1 agenda.

Have you ever attended mass? Really, you have no idea what you're talking about here. Our priests preach salvation most Sundays. Their biggest concern is our souls and what will happen to us in the afterlife.

ahippiechic
06-28-2007, 12:37 PM
Wow, I've missed alot in here lately.

Nice to see you posting Lasher, hope everything is well with you.

Yankee Mary, I enjoy reading your posts. They remind me of what religion (any religion) should be about.

Jolie Rouge
06-28-2007, 02:28 PM
Akeelah and the Bee was a good movie, had that whole My Girl feel to it. Wasn't as much of a tear jerker as Second Hand Lions, but it was good.

I enjoyed both of those movies ( "Holes" is another ) but I was unaware of any promotions from Starbucks related to Akeelah

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 02:35 PM
Sorry bout that Suprtrukr! I fixed it.

Berkley69
06-28-2007, 02:41 PM
I have tried to keep a good HONEST debate going, but its hard when others insist that the bible can mean ANYTHING.

I like the way you put that :star:

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 02:46 PM
That site had a clear agenda against The Church. Would you trust www.ihateIslam.com to tell you the truth about Islam? Or would you think they had an agenda and were probably biased?

This has been addressed numerous times. Yes I would feel that site had an agenda AND a bias. This doesnt change the truth or falsity of what they are saying.

Just a made up example, but if ihateislam.com had quotes from the quran that proves that islam is not a peaeful religion but one that teaches muslims to convert others to the faith or kil them...

Agenda or not the site used the Muslims holy text just as the site I linked to used the Catechism. No one argued that they werent using the Catechism or that it wasnt the right Catechism, no one argued ANYTHING... Instead you guys jump all over the pages being from a site that hates Catholicism.

In fairness yes they do. But the pages I linked to did not show that. You had to search the site and go to the home page to find this. I did not know that that site had an agenda. But they didnt make up anything.

Just because someone hates something, does that mean that everything they say about that subject is false? No it doesnt, but SOME people pretend that the biggest sin of all is intolerance.

suprtruckr
06-28-2007, 02:49 PM
Sorry bout that Suprtrukr! I fixed it.

thank you

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 03:10 PM
Yes, your opinions on The Church are worthless. You have no deisre to actually learn anything. You've taken misinformation and ran with it as gospel. We've shown you over and over and over where you're wrong, but you don't want to hear it. You're so caught up in your prejudice, you can't see the truth when it's looking you in the face.

Yes, you agreeing with me on a spiritual matter makes me queasy. You preach hatred and intolerance. I want no part of that, ever.

I would die for the Catechism? :rolleyes: Holy drama Batman. The Catechism is in line with The Bible and does not contradict scripture. You not wanting to believe that doesn't make it less true. :shrug I think both books were written by man. :)

If I am so misinformed, why cant anyone prove this to me? WHo has shown me over and over? Most of the people who try to show me anything insist on telling me to read the Catechism. Try the bible. NOWHERE in the bible does it say that the church should encourage prayers to Mary or that servants of the Church CAN NOT marry. You can twist the Scripture all you want but the Bible DOES NOT teach this.

The bible does say that all generations will call Mary Blessed. This is very far from the Catechisms teachings on Mary

"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.

No matter what anyone says this is MArianic worship. The bible does not teach that "devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship"

And based on what in the bible can anyone say this is correct? "The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion"

Yup the Catechism is in line with the Bible, I was wrong!

This is just one example! This kind of twisting and perversion of the Bible allows man to make any sort of religion he likes and he can say that it is supported by the Scriptures.

I am not trying to run any one person down or trash a particular religion. It just so happens that there are quite a few Catholics here. If there were more muslims or Jehovas witnesses I would be doing the same.

It just vexes me in particular that there are religions out there that purport to be Christian who dont believe the bible or feel that they need extra books and teachings to Understand the bible etc.

And te bible WAS written by man the same way that a man dictates a letter through his secretary.

The catechism however, was written by men by committee. Not by direct inspiration or revelation from God.

To count the Catechism as equal to Gods word the bible is a form of blasphemy.

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 03:20 PM
:rolling

Do you always threaten people when backed into a corner?

When you post something that is reasonably well thought out, I will address it. But when you just refute me with your opinions, especially if they are snarky or mean, I will ignore them.

I am sorry if you feel threatened by this, I didnt know you valued my conversation so much!:coy

kate
06-28-2007, 04:02 PM
If I am so misinformed, why cant anyone prove this to me? WHo has shown me over and over? Most of the people who try to show me anything insist on telling me to read the Catechism. Try the bible. NOWHERE in the bible does it say that the church should encourage prayers to Mary or that servants of the Church CAN NOT marry. You can twist the Scripture all you want but the Bible DOES NOT teach this.


No one is going to take every.single.thing out of the Catechism and defend it. State your specific arguments and I'm sure many of us would be willing to discuss them. But BE SPECIFIC and then LISTEN/READ what you are told instead of automatically discounting it.



The bible does say that all generations will call Mary Blessed. This is very far from the Catechisms teachings on Mary

"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.

Do you have issue with saying Mary is the "Mother of God?"

What do you understand heaven to be. The role of Mary is important from Genesis through the Gospels. Mary was always God's plan and thus she IS special. "The woman" is Mary.


No matter what anyone says this is MArianic worship. The bible does not teach that "devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship"

It is NOT worship. If we bowed down and exhaulted her as Lord over all then I would agree with you. In NO way is it worship to think that she is special. She did carry the Lord afterall, one would think she'd be pretty damn special to do that and be chosen for that.


It just vexes me in particular that there are religions out there that purport to be Christian who dont believe the bible or feel that they need extra books and teachings to Understand the bible etc.


And te bible WAS written by man the same way that a man dictates a letter through his secretary.
And where is that in the Bible. I know it doesn't say that exactly.



To count the Catechism as equal to Gods word the bible is a form of blasphemy.

Not one Catholic would ever tell you the Catechism is equal to God. It is simply a summary of everything the Church has written and been given via the saints. If we had prophets of old it's not too far fetched to think that there would still be people getting God's teaching after Christ came. It's not like the bible was handed to us when he ascended into heaven. Thus those men had to be divinely inspired. The Catechism is just a summary of millions of things that have been said. It's not holy, it's not special, it's just a tool that is used. Catholics often use it to illustrate points because it is handy and there and provides us with theological ideas that were put forth by theologians and saints over the last nearly 2000 years. I surely don't have time to read all the writings so this is a handy way to look at things. It by no means is special or inspired or holy.

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 04:32 PM
My research assistant (wife) found me an amazing site! This is from the point of view of a lifelong Catholic who was actually a Catholic priest! We have thoroughly checked his whole site and there is no HATE to be found.

Please follow this link to read his personal testimony.

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/rb-testimony.pdf

It is a bit long but shows the earnest journey of a man as he discovers that the teaching and tradition of the Catholic church doesnt line up with the bible.

Then please see this site.

http://whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/wecsk.htm

These are not hate filled sites, they are presented from a former Catholic in an intellectually honest and straight forward manner.

I wont go round n round on these issues anymore.

The Catechism, and many traditions and practices of the Catholic church arent scriptural. This site gives instance after instance of comparisons from the Catechism to the bible.

Please everyone Catholic or not, check this out. It lays out the facts pretty well. I think ALL of us would agree that a lifelong Catholic who was a priest and attended seminary would probably have a pretty good understanding of the teachings and innerworkings of Catholicism.:ciao:

kate
06-28-2007, 04:40 PM
If I read your site, will you read similar things posted by former literalists that are now Catholics?

DtroitPunk
06-28-2007, 06:03 PM
I will read anything anyone posts. But if the information doesnt rely primarily on the Bible I will probably not take it to much to heart.

Contrary to some poster opinions I am an eminately reasonable person. I was an intellectual before I was a Christian and I am always willing to give any evidence a once over.

I already planned on checking my library to see if they had Reasons to Believe by Scott Hahn.

kate
06-28-2007, 06:21 PM
Scott Hahn's story is wonderful and I think you may at least appreciate it given that he was a literalist pastor before becoming a Catholic.

YankeeMary
06-28-2007, 06:49 PM
God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble...James 4:6

Sorry to copy and paste the entire thing, I just felt it was relavent.
From Bible.com:
SIGNS OF PRIDE

1. Insecurity. Research reveals clergy as one of the most insecure of all professional groups. Insecurity is the root of many unhealthy and ungodly behaviors. It provokes us to want the lavish praise and attention of others too much. Much of pride is motivated out of one’s unmet need for self-worth. Finding one’s identity and security in Christ is a must to avoid pride.

2. The need to be right. Ever encounter someone who has a hard time being wrong? This is a symptom of pride. The need to be right prevents one from appropriately evaluating issues as well as themselves (Galatians 6:3). A person who needs to be right has an exalted investment in himself or herself and thinks that he/she knows better than others. In religious circles, the need to be right is frequently manifested through always saying ‘God told me’ or ‘God showed me’.

3. Being argumentative. Individuals, who argue their point of view, especially to those in authority over them, are allowing pride to get the best of them. At the root of their argument is a belief that they are right and the other is wrong and that their will should prevail. It is appropriate to advocate for a point of view or position but not to do so in such a manner that you are more invested in your opinion than in arriving at a mutual understanding.

4. More invested in being heard than in hearing. When someone develops a pattern of needing others to listen to them rather than first hearing others, pride is motivating the need. The need to be heard is common among clergy who are insecure. Oftentimes, the individual does not feel loved or valued unless people "hear them out." In truth, this is often just an expression of insecurity and pride.
5. Anger. Anger is a self-justifying emotion. This means that the nature of anger is to prompt us to justify our position and blame another for the wrongdoing. Justification of self leads to denial of our own complicity or wrongdoing. The scripture warns that the "anger of man does not accomplish the righteousness of God." (James 1:20). An individual who is angry a lot is suffering from pride.

6. Irritability and impatience. Even though I am a counselor, it was only recently that I learned that the root of impatience in my life is anger and therefore pride. When we are unable to be patient with another and are irritated, it demonstrates a haughty view of self. We feel that our views, time or needs are more important than the other persons. This again is more an indication of our pride than someone else’s slow movement or imperfection.
7. Lack of submissive attitude. Submission is the voluntary placement of oneself under the influence, control or authority of another. When an individual pledges their submission to you or another, yet is critical or argumentative of that authority, then pride is the hidden issue. The test of humility and submission is being able to say ‘yes’, maintain a positive attitude and trust God, especially when the decision of your authority goes against your grain or better judgment.

8. Not easily corrected. Ever work or live with someone who won’t receive any negative or corrective feedback? This too is pride. Before he died, a pastor in the East Valley was noted for being easily entreated and able to receive corrective feedback from others. He would thank the person for the negative feedback and commit to pray about it, seek counsel and get back to the person with what conclusions he came to. He was a role model for many of us.
9. Receiving correction but not changing. I worked with a man who often would receive my correction and say thank you for the feedback, but would never change. This too is a form of pride. The individual was placating me and people-pleasing me, telling me what I wanted to hear but not really taking the feedback to heart. His insecurity and fear prevented him from truly changing.

10. Needing others to take your advice. Counselors, such as myself, easily fall into the trap of having to have others take their advice. Advice should always be offered without strings attached. If you find yourself resenting the fact that your advice is not followed, look deeper at the motivating issues in your life.
11. Needing to proclaim your title or degrees. A good friend of mine requires everyone to call him ‘pastor’, saying that he has deservedly earned the title. Demanding that others call you ‘doctor’ or ‘pastor’ or ‘bishop’ is usually a way of making you ‘one up’ and them ‘one down’. Once again, pride is fueling the requirement.

12. Being stubborn. Webster’s dictionary defines stubbornness as "unduly determined to exert one’s own will, not easily persuaded and difficult to handle or work, resistant." The root issue of stubbornness is willfulness, which is ‘I want what I want when I want it’. Another name for pride.
13. Comparisons and competition. 2 Corinthians 10:12 makes it clear that comparing oneself with others is unwise. Comparison is a form of competition. It is often overt. For example, emphasizing the size of one’s church, the number of converts, etc. However, it can also be the subtle sin of heart that inwardly grieves when another is more successful or rejoices when another pastor’s ministry enters hard times. The motive of heart is pride.

Lasher
06-28-2007, 06:53 PM
I enjoyed both of those movies ( "Holes" is another ) but I was unaware of any promotions from Starbucks related to Akeelah

Yeah it was pretty cool, they had all these cards with words, I had so never heard of and then the definitions on the back. Evidently a titter is a really big laugh little did I know. I'm sure those cards caused quite a stir too.

YankeeMary
06-28-2007, 07:00 PM
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."


Mark 11:25-26 (Amplified) "And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him and let it drop--leave it, let it go--in order that your Father Who is in heaven may also forgive you your (own) failings and shortcomings and let them drop. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your failings and shortcomings."

Matthew 5:44-48: "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? Do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? Do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

John 6:37, "All whom My Father has given (entrusted) to Me, will come to Me and I will most certainly not cast out--I will never, no never reject one of them who comes to Me"

Receive correction and feedback from others graciously. (Proverbs 10:17, 12:1)

Purpose to speak well of others. (Ephesians 4:31-32)

janelle
06-28-2007, 07:24 PM
Ok I followed one of your links and spent just a few minutes reading and found this here

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p6.htm#II

II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN

971 "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

This is justified in the bible how? By MAry saying that she would always be called blessed? This is her acknowledging what a blessing it was to be asked to carry the son of God. This does not eguate to a place of special reverance. Mary wasnt the only woman who could have fullfilled this role.

This is just one example of things the Catholic church hold as Doctrine that were made up by men and unsupported by the Bible.

What about Joseph? What kind of man does it take to have a wife Pregnant with a child not his own? To not touch her until she had given birth?

Although the Catholic church would have us believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin who NEVER had sex with Joseph! The bible itself shows this to be untrue.

My wife actually pointed this out. Why should Mary hold a place of such respect and reverance when Joseph is basically ignored?

The thing is had I the time I could find Literally hundreds of examples like the one above from YOUR links to the catechism. Most of the Catechism is supported by the scripture exactly as I have shown above TENUOUSLY.


ten·u·ous(tny-s)
adj.
1. Long and thin; slender: tenuous strands.
2. Having a thin consistency; dilute.
3. Having little substance; flimsy: a tenuous argument


DP, having read through all of the post since you posted this we find nowhere that you have shown in the scriptures where this was false teaching. We have given you some (there are many we did not give you but would do so if you need more information) scriptures which support this teaching. Rmember we do not worship Mary. Your quote in the Catechism even says that. But we do give Mary a special devotion. So we are now curious as to your position. One has to conclude, with the vast absence of what you have not provided, that you must be in agreement that the scriptures support this teaching.

However, just to give you the opportunity to show where this teaching is counter to the scriptures please provide your evidence. Remember this teaching says nothing about praying to Mary, nothing about her virginity, and even speaks against worship of Mary. Do you now agree with this one point in the Cathecism? If not, please provide the scriptures that counter this. Otherwise we have to assume you are in agreement with this teaching.

YankeeMary
06-28-2007, 07:57 PM
I have always been under the impression that Catholics do all they do out of respect for Mary as she is the mother of Jesus. If I am incorrect, please correct me. My mother is Catholic, she and I have had numerous discussions over the attention the Catholics give Mary and I walked away thinking it was simply out of love and respect.

janelle
06-28-2007, 08:15 PM
YankeeMary, you have the same understanding we have. Our devotion to Mary is out of love and respect. We of course never worship Mary. Worship is only to be given to God.

27Summers
06-28-2007, 08:35 PM
Which bill are you talking about?

I've received multiple emails about House Bill HR 1592 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1592 purporting that it would prohibit pastors from preaching against homosexuality and that bill does nothing of the kind!

That bill allows for the prosecution of those who commit BODILY HARM to another individual on the basis of "race, color, religion, national origin, gender, sexual orientation, gender identity, or disability of the victim". It does not even single out homosexuality, nor does it in any way limit free speech. It is simply an addition means of prosecuting someone for physically HARMING another person on the basis of the above.

I hate to see emails get forwarded that spread false info about the purpose of a proposed bill. I'm not sure if that was the one you were referring to, 27 Summers, but I know that one has been unjustly villifed via the internet. Folks should read the actual text of the bill themselves before believing what is rumored about it.

It has been widely discussed in our church, which is a bible believing church read: Christian
It's not really a rumor if you read what the bill proposes, and just how far it has the potential to go, yes this is the bill I was referring to, and yes it is meant for those who commit bodily harm to anyone for any reason that is and can be regarded as hate, however, I am not going to play dumb, I have read and am currently studying Revelations, and these very issues we discuss will come to fruition, so there is a very real possibility that this could include a pastor, a neighbor, a friend, for saying something that could be taken as "hate" and consequently be arrested for it.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200704/CUL20070426b.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40774

27Summers
06-28-2007, 09:03 PM
If I am so misinformed, why cant anyone prove this to me? WHo has shown me over and over? Most of the people who try to show me anything insist on telling me to read the Catechism. Try the bible. NOWHERE in the bible does it say that the church should encourage prayers to Mary or that servants of the Church CAN NOT marry. You can twist the Scripture all you want but the Bible DOES NOT teach this.

The bible does say that all generations will call Mary Blessed. This is very far from the Catechisms teachings on Mary

"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.

No matter what anyone says this is MArianic worship. The bible does not teach that "devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship"

And based on what in the bible can anyone say this is correct? "The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion"

Yup the Catechism is in line with the Bible, I was wrong!

This is just one example! This kind of twisting and perversion of the Bible allows man to make any sort of religion he likes and he can say that it is supported by the Scriptures.

I am not trying to run any one person down or trash a particular religion. It just so happens that there are quite a few Catholics here. If there were more muslims or Jehovas witnesses I would be doing the same.

It just vexes me in particular that there are religions out there that purport to be Christian who dont believe the bible or feel that they need extra books and teachings to Understand the bible etc.

And te bible WAS written by man the same way that a man dictates a letter through his secretary.

The catechism however, was written by men by committee. Not by direct inspiration or revelation from God.

To count the Catechism as equal to Gods word the bible is a form of blasphemy.


:clapping

very well said.
One question though for Catholics, why is it that the Catholic church decided the bible wasn't enough (God's inspired word written through chosen authors) and added more books to it? Don't they know the trouble they will have to face when they die for that?

(I know other religions have done this as well, and others have written their own entire "bible")
But still, as a former Catholic, now born again Christian, I have always wondered why the priests didn't read the bible, because it seemed to me that if they did, they would see the errors of their ways and repent.

As for Mary worship, it is indeed worship, I was there for many years, I lived it, I did it, it was nothing out of respect or love, but worship.
It seemed to me that we spent more time on Mary than we did our Father.

And I was NEVER taught salvation in a Catholic church, I would be interested to see what that entails.

The Catholic church teaches that sin is ok, and just confess it to "MAN" (which is a sin in itself) and it will all be ok.


after 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Fathers of course.

Now of course I will get flamed for this, go ahead, I am not speaking on anything that I have no knowledge about, like I said, I lived it.

janelle
06-28-2007, 09:03 PM
My research assistant (wife) found me an amazing site! This is from the point of view of a lifelong Catholic who was actually a Catholic priest! We have thoroughly checked his whole site and there is no HATE to be found.

Please follow this link to read his personal testimony.

http://www.bereanbeacon.org/articles_pdf/rb-testimony.pdf

It is a bit long but shows the earnest journey of a man as he discovers that the teaching and tradition of the Catholic church doesnt line up with the bible.

Then please see this site.

http://whateverycatholicshouldknow.com/wecsk.htm

These are not hate filled sites, they are presented from a former Catholic in an intellectually honest and straight forward manner.

I wont go round n round on these issues anymore.

The Catechism, and many traditions and practices of the Catholic church arent scriptural. This site gives instance after instance of comparisons from the Catechism to the bible.

Please everyone Catholic or not, check this out. It lays out the facts pretty well. I think ALL of us would agree that a lifelong Catholic who was a priest and attended seminary would probably have a pretty good understanding of the teachings and innerworkings of Catholicism.:ciao:

I believe this is just another web site trying to prove Catholics are wrong. I read the priest's story to the point of "Catholics WORSHIP Mary" and stopped reading. I can't believe this man was ever a priest and believe we worship Mary. If he was he must have slept through all those years of study. So sad for him. I am glad he decided to drop out if he taught something so false.

YankeeMary
06-28-2007, 09:20 PM
:clapping

very well said.
One question though for Catholics, why is it that the Catholic church decided the bible wasn't enough (God's inspired word written through chosen authors) and added more books to it? Don't they know the trouble they will have to face when they die for that?

(I know other religions have done this as well, and others have written their own entire "bible")
But still, as a former Catholic, now born again Christian, I have always wondered why the priests didn't read the bible, because it seemed to me that if they did, they would see the errors of their ways and repent.

As for Mary worship, it is indeed worship, I was there for many years, I lived it, I did it, it was nothing out of respect or love, but worship.
It seemed to me that we spent more time on Mary than we did our Father.

And I was NEVER taught salvation in a Catholic church, I would be interested to see what that entails.

The Catholic church teaches that sin is ok, and just confess it to "MAN" (which is a sin in itself) and it will all be ok.


after 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Fathers of course.

Now of course I will get flamed for this, go ahead, I am not speaking on anything that I have no knowledge about, like I said, I lived it.


This is from Bible.com as well NIV
1. Confess this sin first to God, then go to a committed Christian you trust, such as your pastor. Ask God to lead you to someone that you can be accountable with, who will be faithful to pray with you and for you. This will take humility on your part, but it will lead to life. James 5:16 says: "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective." (You may not feel "righteous" but if you have admitted your sin to God and received His forgiveness, you are! That means your prayers are powerful and effective!)

The whole idea of "confessing" your sins is to be humbled. It must go to God first, just as the Christian Bible states. That is not a sin to "confess" to a human.


I do appreciate seeing your thoughts about the Catholic religion as you lived and your new found religion. It offers objectivity. I still have to say I would never try to discredit any religion that believes Jesus died for our sins. To spooky for me to tread on.

Jolie Rouge
06-28-2007, 09:29 PM
One question though for Catholics, why is it that the Catholic church decided the bible wasn't enough (God's inspired word written through chosen authors) and added more books to it? Don't they know the trouble they will have to face when they die for that?

(I know other religions have done this as well, and others have written their own entire "bible")
But still, as a former Catholic, now born again Christian, I have always wondered why the priests didn't read the bible, because it seemed to me that if they did, they would see the errors of their ways and repent.

As for Mary worship, it is indeed worship, I was there for many years, I lived it, I did it, it was nothing out of respect or love, but worship.
It seemed to me that we spent more time on Mary than we did our Father.

And I was NEVER taught salvation in a Catholic church, I would be interested to see what that entails.

The Catholic church teaches that sin is ok, and just confess it to "MAN" (which is a sin in itself) and it will all be ok.

after 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Fathers of course.

Now of course I will get flamed for this, go ahead, I am not speaking on anything that I have no knowledge about, like I said, I lived it.

I have no idea where you went to church - you need to come down here. I have been active in our Catholic dioceses for over 30 years - in about 12 different churches - NEVER did I hear that it was "ok to sin if you confess to a man and after 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Fathers of course." NEVER did I witness worship of Mary - reverence yes; worship no. I have heard many many many homilies and sermons on Salvation thru Christ. The Catholic church did not "add books to the Bible", they did not omit the books that King James deleted nor do they recognise the other "edits" that reflected the social and political needs of KJ's era. I have attended many Bible Studies conducted within the Catholic Church often with the Priests or nuns of the various Parishes.

So - while I am not "flaming you" for your opinion or discounting your personal experinces - I must point out that your experiences are not the whole of the Catholic Church.

We rever Mary as the Mother of Christ - without whom we would have no Salvation. She is ( as are the saints ) a role model for the faithful.

We confess to a priest much as an Alcoholic doing the 12 Steps - because it is a humbling experience to confess your sins to another human being. You can rationalize any action in your heart, but to admit it and explain your actions to another is cathatic.

janelle
06-28-2007, 09:56 PM
We also agree whole heartly with Jolie Rouge. The scriptures are read and preached at every Mass. It is rare that we have been to a Mass that the priest didn't preach on some aspect of salavation.

Maybe some have missed the message. Maybe some thought we were to worship Mary. We don't know. That is not our experience. We have been cradle Catholics. While we had to mature over the years, that maturation process was something on us, not on the teachings of the church.

We don't know why Martin Luther omitted several books from the bible when he translated the scriptures into German. Many Protestants followed in his footsteps and continued to omit those books, including the King James Version. But for 1,100 years (between 400 A.D. and 1600 A.D.) all christian teaching was from all the books that are in the Catholic Bible. We guess one would have to be a scholar on Martin Luther to understand why he made those omissions.

We do pray that one day all Christians will be reunited in the same fellowship to God through Jesus Christ.

janelle
06-28-2007, 10:37 PM
http://www.saintjoemp3.com/servlet/Detail?no=6


Answering Common Objections

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Complete Audi CD Set in MP3 - 150meg ZIP file

Answers To the Most Common Questions Facing Catholics Today
As a former Protestant minister, Dr. Scott Hahn knows all too well the most common objections non-Catholics have to the Catholic Faith. In this series Scott carefully examines the most commonly-held objections and explains how controversy has generally arisen.

Beginning with a comprehensive approach to Scripture analysis, Scott shows how Protestants are often mislead because they are taught to focus on certain selective readings of Scripture and private interpretation. Then, with his detailed knowledge of the Bible, Dr. Hahn is able to show the contextual Scriptural basis, as well as relevant principles of Church teaching, that support many of the Catholic doctrines routinely rejected by Protestants.

Dr. Hahn shows you how Protestants misunderstand who, and what, the Roman Pontiff is for Catholics. And he offers exciting ways to help Protestant friends and relatives understand the true nature and function of the papal office.

To approach the veneration of saints from a Biblical perspective, Hahn begins with the Book of Hebrews and the “Old Testament Hall of Fame.” He shows how the saints constitute a “cloud of witness” which hovers over the world giving glory to God and “cheering on” the Christian family on earth.

Scott also highlights the specific objections some Protestants have with the Catholic Mass and provides listeners with key Scripture passages that will help their Protestant friends and relatives understand the true nature of the Eucharist. Dr. Hahn traces the Biblical background of the Eucharist as a sacrifice and as the establishment of the New Covenant. Scott explains how the Eucharist is the way in which God swears His final and eternal promise (or covenant oath) to His children—a promise which makes Christians His sons and daughters.

If you need a single resource for answering the various objections that Protestant Christians make to the Catholic Faith on such issues as authority of the Pope, the doctrine of Purgatory, devotion to the Blessed Mother and the Saints, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist; then this series of talks has the answers. Dr. Hahn’s powerful presentations not only show you how to use the Bible to defend the truth of Catholic teaching, he also gives you an invaluable tool for sharing the truth of the Catholic Faith. This is an absolutely marvelous set of presentations for learning to overcome theological objections.

(CD 1) The Pope: Holy Father

(CD 2) Purgatory: Holy Fire

(CD 3) Mary: Holy Mother

(CD 4) The Saints: Holy Siblings

(CD 5) The Eucharist: Holy Meal

Saint Josephs Communication

janelle
06-28-2007, 10:45 PM
http://www.saintjoemp3.com/servlet/Detail?no=33


Bible Alone

SKU: 5253-MP3


Written by: Scott Hahn
Category: Apologetics
8 CD's in MP3 - 230meg ZIP File

Now on CD! The Revolutionary Series that Brought Thousands Back into the Catholic Church! The Bible Alone? Dr. Scott Hahn, Ph.D. “Where in the Bible does it say that the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith?” This seemingly innocent question from a Protestant university student started then-Presbyterian minister Scott Hahn on a dramatic search that brought him to the ironic conclusion that the Reformation doctrine of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) is, in fact, unbiblical! This prompted an amazing journey that brought one of today’s finest Biblical thinkers into the Catholic Church. And this classic presentation brought in thousands more!

The Case for Sola Scriptura Finally available on eight audio CDs, The Bible Alone explores the origin of sola scriptura in the writings of Martin Luther and exposes how the Protestant Reformers allowed the evolution of this doctrine to influence their view of the Bible— even to justifying the removal of seven books from the official canon of Scripture! You’ll also discover the Biblical evidence against private interpretation of Scripture and all the major elements of the “Bible alone” theory. New Objections, New Responses While highlighting the Catholic position on the Bible, Hahn also presents recent Protestant efforts to “reform” sola scriptura and creatively defend what is demonstrably a Reformation-era doctrine against the 2,000-year tradition of the Church.

He charitably examines the writings of his former colleagues who continue to argue that the Bible is the only infallible guide to Faith and then answers their objections with rock-solid arguments from history, tradition and, of course, the Bible itself! An Authoritative Guide In his exhaustive examination of the Bible texts classically used by Protestants to “prove” sola scriptura, Dr. Hahn shows how these verses (properly interpreted) actually point back to the witness of the Church’s Tradition. We learn how the early Church saw that scripture alone -- the Hebrew Bible at that time -- was not enough, but rather, realized the need for the authority of the Church. A Proven Resource Since virtually all the many thousands of Fundamentalist and Evangelical sects use sola scriptura to condemn Catholic beliefs and practices, the evidence contained in this set will be your best line of defense against anti-Catholic attacks. The Bible Alone? is a proven classic that no serious Catholic should be without. Download now and gain priceless insight into defending the Faith from this essential Protestant error.

Item # 5253-CD, (set of 8 CDs), $42.95 Answered!

• How did the Church function for 350 years without the NT canon?
• Why would the Holy Spirit wait fourteen centuries to reveal such an important “truth” as sola scriptura?
• How to view the Bible in the living Tradition of the Church
• What is the modern Protestant response to Catholic evidence against sola scriptura?
• Why Dr. Hahn’s honest presentation of both sides of this issue allows listeners to decide for themselves
• How the “Bible alone” doctrine is, ironically, unbiblical
• Where the Bible condemns the private interpretation of Scripture
• When and where the “Bible alone” doctrine was introduced
• Who does Scripture say is the official interpreter of Scripture?
• And much more…

Saint Josephs Communication

janelle
06-28-2007, 11:12 PM
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/

You should really lilke this site. Gives the scripture of Catholic beliefs.

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Welcome to ScriptureCatholic.com, one of the most comprehensive Catholic apologetics websites on the internet. ScriptureCatholic.com provides over 2,000 Scripture citations from the Old and New Testament that explain and defend the teachings of the Catholic Church. This site also provides hundreds of excerpts from the writings of the early Church Fathers (1st through 8th centuries). These writings explain the Fathers' interpretation of Scripture and demonstrate that the early Church was unequivocally Catholic. Through the study of Scripture and the Church Fathers, we see that, not only is the Catholic faith biblical, Catholicism is Bible Christianity par excellence.

Because the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the divinely-revealed, written Word of God, Catholics venerate the Scriptures as they venerate the Lord's body. But Catholics do not believe that God has given us His divine Revelation in Christ exclusively through Scripture. Catholics also believe that God's Revelation comes to us through the Apostolic Tradition and teaching authority of the Church.

What Church? Scripture reveals this Church to be the one Jesus Christ built upon the rock of Saint Peter (Matt. 16:18). By giving Peter the keys of authority (Matt. 16:19), Jesus appointed Peter as the chief steward over His earthly kingdom (cf. Isaiah. 22:19-22). Jesus also charged Peter to be the source of strength for the rest of the apostles (Luke 22:32) and the earthly shepherd of Jesus' flock (John 21:15-17). Jesus further gave Peter, and the apostles and elders in union with him, the power to bind and loose in heaven what they bound and loosed on earth. (Matt. 16:19; 18:18). This teaching authority did not die with Peter and the apostles, but was transferred to future bishops through the laying on of hands (e.g., Acts 1:20; 6:6; 13:3; 8:18; 9:17; 1 Tim. 4:14; 5:22; 2 Tim. 1:6).

By virtue of this divinely-appointed authority, the Catholic Church determined the canon of Scripture (what books belong in the Bible) at the end of the fourth century. We therefore believe in the Scriptures on the authority of the Catholic Church. After all, nothing in Scripture tells us what Scriptures are inspired, what books belong in the Bible, or that Scripture is the final authority on questions concerning the Christian faith. Instead, the Bible says that the Church, not the Scriptures, is the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and the final arbiter on questions of the Christian faith (Matt. 18:17). It is through the teaching authority and Apostolic Tradition (2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6; 1 Cor. 11:2) of this Church, who is guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16,26; 16:13), that we know of the divine inspiration of the Scriptures, and the manifold wisdom of God. (cf. Ephesians 3:10).

I hope that this site gives Catholics the biblical and patristic knowledge they need to answer questions about their faith, and helps them rediscover the truth of their faith as taught by Sacred Scripture. I further pray that non-Catholics come to recognize that God's gift of salvation comes only through Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. I also pray that each one of us grows more deeply in love with Jesus as we become better Bible Christians (or, rather, "Scripture Catholics").

Grace be with you.

John Salza

janelle
06-28-2007, 11:31 PM
Double post.

janelle
06-28-2007, 11:52 PM
For those who worry about the scandals of the church, this should help us see these are nothing new to our time. The church will prevail through scandal as it always has from the beginning. That is God's promise
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VII. Controversies in the Church
Matt. 13:24-30 - scandals have always existed in the Church, just as they have existed outside of the Church. This should not cause us to lose hope in the Church. God's mysterious plan requires the wheat and the weeds to be side by side in the Church until the end of time.

Matt. 13:47-50 - God's plan is that the Church (the kingdom of heaven) is a net which catches fish of every kind, good and bad. God revealed this to us so that we will not get discouraged by the sinfulness of the Church’s members.

Matt. 16:18 - no matter how sinful its members conduct themselves, Jesus promised that the gates of death will never prevail against the Church.

Matt. 23:2-3 - the Jewish people would have always understood the difference between a person's sinfulness and his teaching authority. We see that the sinfulness of the Pharisees does not minimize their teaching authority. They occupy the "cathedra" of Moses.

Matt. 26:70-72; Mark 14:68-70; Luke 22:57; John 18:25-27 - Peter denied Christ three times, yet he was chosen to be the leader of the Church, and taught and wrote infallibly.

Mark 14:45 - Judas was unfaithful by betraying Jesus. But his apostolic office was preserved and this did not weaken the Church.

Mark 14:50 - all of Jesus' apostles were unfaithful by abandoning Him in the garden of Gethsemane, yet they are the foundation of the Church.

John 20:24-25 - Thomas the apostle was unfaithful by refusing to believe in Jesus' resurrection, yet he taught infallibly in India.

Rom. 3:3-4 - unfaithful members do not nullify the faithfulness of God and the work of the Holy Spirit in the Church.

Eph. 5:25-27 - just as Jesus Christ has both a human and a divine nature, the Church, His Bride, is also both human and divine. It is the holy and spotless bride of Christ, with sinful human members.

1 Tim. 5:19 - Paul acknowledges Church elders might be unfaithful. The Church, not rebellion and schism, deals with these matters.

2 Tim. 2:13 - if we remain faithless, God remains faithful for He cannot deny Himself.

2 Tim. 2:20 - a great house has not only gold and silver, but also wood and earthenware, some for noble use, some for ignoble use.

Jer. 24:1-10 - God's plan includes both good and bad figs. The good figs will be rewarded, and the bad figs will be discarded.

1 Kings 6,7,8 - the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. Some non-Catholics think that this is controversial and the money should be given to the poor, even though no organization does more for the poor of the world that the Catholic Church. We create our churches with beauty because Christ our King lives in the churches in the blessed Eucharist.

Matt. 26:8-9; Mark 14:4-5; John 12:5 - negative comments concerning the beauty of the Church are like the disciples complaining about the woman anointing Jesus' head with costly oil. Jesus desires that we honor Him with our best gifts, not for Him, but for us, so that we realize He is God and we are His creatures.

Matt. 26:10-11 - Jesus says we have both a duty to honor God and give to the poor - a balanced life of reverence and charity.

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:23 AM
Scripture---On Salvation

I. Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:25 AM
II.We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation


Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 - Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.

Heb. 9:12 - Christ's sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God's doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of "once saved, always saved," such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.

Rom. 5:2 - we rejoice in the "hope" (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?

Rom. 5:5 - this "hope" does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.

Rom. 8:24 - this "hope" of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?

Rom. 10:1 - Paul prays that the Jews "may be saved." Why pray if it's guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?

Rom. 12:12 - rejoice in your "hope" (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.

2 Cor. 3:12 - since we have a "hope" (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.

Gal. 5:5 - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the "hope" (not the certainty) of righteousness.

Eph. 1:18 - that you may know what is the "hope" to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.

Eph. 4:4 - there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one "hope" (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.

Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.

Phil. 3:11 - Paul shares Christ's sufferings so that "if possible" he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.

Phil. 1:20 - as it is my eager expectation and "hope" (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.

Col. 1:5 - Paul refers to the "hope" (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.

Col. 1:23 - provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the "hope" of the gospel which you heard.

Col. 1:27 - to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the "hope" (not the certainty) of His glory.

1 Thess. 1:3 - remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of "hope" in Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 2:19 - for what is our "hope" or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?

1 Thess. 5:8 - we must put on the helmet of "hope" (not of certainty) of salvation.

2 Thess. 2:16 - the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good "hope" through grace.

1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul describes Christ Jesus as our "hope" (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.

1 Tim. 4:10 - Paul says we toil and strive because we have our "hope" (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.

1 Tim. 5:5 - she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her "hope" (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.

2 Tim. 2:10 - Paul endures for the elect so that they "may also obtain salvation." This verse teaches us that even the "elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.

Titus 1:2 - Paul says that he is in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.

Titus 2:13 - awaiting our blessed "hope," the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:7 - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the "hope" (not the certainty) of eternal life.

Heb. 3:6 - we are Christ's house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our "hope" (not our certainty).

Heb. 6:11 - we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of "hope" (not certainty) until the end.

Heb. 6:18 - we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the "hope" (not the certainty) that is set before us.

Heb. 6:19 - we have a "hope" that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.

Heb. 7:19 - on the other hand, a better "hope" (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.

Heb. 10:23 - let us hold fast the confession of our "hope" without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.

Heb. 11:1 - now faith is the assurance of things "hoped" for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).

Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.

Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.

James 1:12 - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.

1 Peter 1:3 - by His mercy we have been born anew to a living "hope" through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.

1 Peter 1:13 - set your "hope" (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:21 - through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and "hope" are in God.

1 Peter 2:2 - like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?

1 Peter 3:15 - always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the "hope" that is in you.

1 John 3:3 - and everyone who thus "hopes" in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:27 AM
IV. Jesus' Teaching on Losing Salvation


Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say "Lord, Lord" on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for "therefore" is "dia toutos" which means "through this") blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus' grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God's banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as "alive again."

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don't bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won't cast out. But it's a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person "continues" to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father "draws" him. This "drawing" is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, "no one shall snatch them out of my hands," He does not mean we can't leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God's holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:29 AM
V. Other Apostolic Teaching on Losing Salvation by our Own Choice


Acts 7:51 - you stiff-necked people, you always resist the Holy Spirit. We, by our own freewill, can resist God and His grace, and turn away from Him.

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.

1 Cor. 9:24-27 – Paul says that all the runners compete, but only one wins the prize. Paul recognizes that if he doesn’t train himself properly in perseverance, he too can become “disqualified.” The word "disqualified" comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. When “adokimos” is used in the Scriptures, it always refers to those who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards. See, for example, Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7. This proves that Saint Paul thought he could lose his salvation. No one would reasonably argue that Paul wasn’t “saved” when he wrote the Scriptures. So if Saint Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why do many Protestants think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:24 – Paul says that only one wins the “prize” (brabeion). To further prove that the race Paul is writing about refers to our journey to heaven, “brabeion” always has a soteriological implication. See, for example, Phil. 3:14 where “prize” refers to the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (which is heaven).

1 Cor. 9:25 – Paul writes about achieving the “imperishable” (aphthartos) wreath. Again, to further prove Paul is writing about salvation, “aphthartos” always refers to the eternal. See, for example, 1 Cor. 15:51 (the only other place in NT Scripture where “aphthartos” appears relative to humans) where Paul says the dead will be raised “imperishable.” This refers to the resurrection of our salvation. See also 1 Tim. 1:17 where the King of ages is called “immortal” (imperishable).

Rom. 13:11 – for salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:6-13 – the passage is about how the Israelites, once justified before God, fell away from God. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall (v.12). You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away. But God will always provide enough grace to overcome the temptation (v.13).

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 – Paul writes, “I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ.” The Corinthians already had a sincere devotion to Christ, for Paul wrote to them earlier in the letter, “you stand firm in your faith.” (2 Cor. 1:24). They are already “saved.” But Paul warns them that they can fall away just like Eve fell away (and, remember, Eve was created without sin!) This is another verse that is devastating to the belief of “once saved, always saved.”

Gal. 1:8-9 – Paul says, “if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel to that which we preached to you…let him be accursed.” Paul says “if we,” which means he believed even the sacred writers (currently “saved”) could fall away from the true faith and teach a heretical gospel.

Gal. 4:9 – Paul asks those who know God how they can now turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves they once were. Paul acknowledges and warns of this possibility.

Gal. 5:1 – Paul writes that the Galatians are free in Christ, but warns them to stand fast, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. You cannot be severed from Christ if you were never connected to Christ. This warning applies to those who are connected to Christ in faith.

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace. You cannot be severed from something unless you were previously connected to it.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling? What is there to fear if salvation is assured?

Phil. 3:11-14 – Paul writes that “if possible,” he may attain the resurrection, says he is not perfect, and presses on toward the prize of salvation. Paul has no presumption of salvation but works it out in fear and trembling.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which we heard. Paul warns them that it is possible to turn away and lose hope in the gospel.

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:29 AM
Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." God Himself is telling us that some people who had the faith will lose the faith.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul says that some have already turned away and gone after Satan. There is never any distinction between falling away from a true faith versus a false faith.

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

Heb. 2:1 - we must pay closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. We have it, but we can drift away from it.

Heb. 3:12 – the author warns the Hebrews to take care, lest there be in any one of you an evil heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. We can be with God, and choose to fall away from Him.

Heb. 3:13-14 – the author warns the Hebrews that they need to exhort one another every day, so that none of them may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Paul teaches that we share in Christ, but only if we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

Heb. 4:1 - while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. There would be nothing to fear if salvation were assured.

Heb. 4:6,11 - we can receive the good news (predestined to grace) and then disobey it and fall away. The author thus exhorts us to strive to enter that rest, that no one falls by the same sort of disobedience.

Heb. 6:4-6 - those who have been enlightened and partakers of the Holy Spirit (predestined to grace) can fall away, commit apostasy and crucify the Son of God.

Heb. 10:23-29 - we can sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth (predestined to grace) and then face a fury of fire.

Heb. 10:26 - if we continue to sin after knowing truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin - our salvation is jeopardized.

Heb. 10:35 - we can have confidence in salvation (predestined to grace), and then throw it away. We can have it, and lose it.

Heb. 10:36: - we have the need of endurance, so that we may do the will of God and receive what is promised. There is no need for endurance to get what is promised if salvation is assured.

Heb. 10:38-39 – the author says that the righteous live by faith, but can shrink back. He then exhorts the people not to shrink back and be destroyed, but to keep their souls.

James 5:19-20 - we can be in the truth, and then wander from the truth which means death, unless we are brought back.

1 Peter 1:14 – Peter warns that, as obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance. Thus, you can first be ignorant, then receive the truth and become obedient, and later revert back to the passions of your former ignorance.

2 Peter 2:1 - we can be bought by Christ, and then become false teachers of destructive heresies and destroy ourselves.

2 Peter 1:10 – we must be zealous to confirm our call and election; for if we do this we will never fall. But Peter is saying that it is possible to fall, without zeal and perseverance.

2 Peter 2:15 – forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing. They had the right way, and then chose to forsake it.

2 Peter 2:20-22 - we can escape the defilements of the world through Jesus (predestined to grace) and then become entangled again therein.

2 Peter 3:16-17 - we can be the beloved of God and then lose our stability and carried away with the error of lawless men.

1 John 1:7 - if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus cleanses us. But we need continual cleansing, and can walk out of the light.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess our sins, Jesus will forgive them and cleanse us. But we need continual cleansing. Growing in holiness is a lifelong process.

1 John 2:19 - "they left, but didn't not belong to us" refers to those who were Christians who did not persevere and were thus not predestined to glory.

1 John 2:28 - we must abide in Him so we have confidence and don't shrink in shame. If we fail to abide, we are lost.

2 John 8 - look to yourselves, that you may not lose what you have worked for. You can lose the grace you currently have.

Jude 6 - even some of the angels, who beheld the face of God, fell. How much more could we fall?

Gen. 3:6 - Adam and Eve, who were already living the divine life of supernatural grace, fell away from God. Is falling more possible for us?

Ezek. 3:20; 18:24; 33:12,13,18 – the Lord clearly teaches us in these verses that a righteous man can turn away from his righteousness and commit iniquity. He was righteous (there is nothing about having phony righteousness), but he fell away and chose unrighteousness. When he does, his prior good deeds shall be forgotten, and he shall die.

janelle
06-29-2007, 12:30 AM
SOME VERSES PROTESTANTS USE TO PROVE “ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED”

2 Tim. 4:8 – Protestants often use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved,” even in the face of all Paul wrote about the possibility of losing his salvation (including his). But it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. This is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we indeed have a moral certitude of our salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We must persevere throughout our lives, and can choose to fall away.

Also, Catholics have more assurance of salvation that those who espouse “once saved, always saved.” This is because the only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian will not persevere to the end – but this is something a Christian cannot know during his life, and this necessarily imposes uncertainty upon him until the end. For Catholics, we know that salvation is ours to lose. For “once saved, always saved” Protestants, they don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

Rom. 11:29 – “the gifts and the call of our God our irrevocable.” Some Protestants use this to prove “once saved, always saved.” But this verse has nothing to do with our response to salvation. It deals with God’s unmerited gifts and call to us. Moreover, if a person is in “the elect,” then his salvation is irrevocable. But we can never know if we are in the elect during our lives (“the elect” only deals with God’s knowledge).

Rom. 14:4 – and he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand. This is another verse Protestants use to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse speaks only to what God is able to do. It does not address what the person is free to do (accept God’s grace or reject it).

Phil. 1:6 – “I am sure that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.” Protestants also use this verse to prove “once saved, always saved.” But Protestants wouldn’t argue that the whole Philippi church was saved, so this statement must be qualified. In fact, Paul does qualify it in Phil. 2:13 when he warns them to work out their salvation “in fear and trembling,” and in Phil. 3:11-14 when he writes that “if possible,” he may obtain the resurrection, and that he has not yet received the prize (of salvation). Moreover, the verse tells us what God will do (He will give all the grace to bring us to completion), but says nothing about our cooperation with God’s grace.

Phil. 4:3 – some Protestants point to this verse about names which are in the book of life. Indeed, because God knows the future, He knows who will persevere (the elect). These are the people whose names are in the book of life. But Jesus in Rev. 3:5 warns us that He can blot our names out of the book of life if we fail to persevere.

Col. 3:23-24 – “work heartily as serving the Lord, not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward.” This is another verse used to prove “once saved, always saved.” But the verse says our inheritance depends on “working heartily.” It’s not just a matter of accepting Christ as Savior, but working heartily in perseverance. If we persevere, then we will indeed receive the inheritance as our reward.

2 Tim. 1:12 – “But I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me.” Another verse proving “once saved, always saved?” Of course not. Paul is writing about the Revelation of faith with which God has entrusted him, and specifically that God will preserve his ability to teach the faith until the end of his life (see v. 13 where Paul then exhorts Timothy to safeguard this deposit of faith as well).

2 Tim. 4:18 – “the Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom.” Again, this verse demonstrates God’s faithfulness to us, but God’s ability to save us also depends upon our cooperation. God preserves His elect, but only He knows who are His elect by His foreknowledge.

1 Peter 1:3-5 – Peter says we are born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ and to an inheritance which is imperishable, who by God’s power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. No Protestant, however, would argue that all of northern Asia Minor (to whom the letter was addressed) was saved. The verse simply sets forth the tautology that God’s elect are saved (by God’s grace and the elect’s perseverance), but only God knows who are His elect.

1 John 5:18 – John writes that anyone born of God does not sin (this, of course, doesn’t say or prove anything about salvation). This is an example of proverbial literature which John uses frequently. For example, see 1 John 1:8 – if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. Proverbial literature tries to make a point by using an absolute, even though the absolute is necessarily qualified (here, as seen by 1 John 1:8 which seemingly contradicts 1 John 5:18).

Psalm 37:28 – “For the Lord loves justice; He will not forsake His saints. The righteous shall be preserved forever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off.” Again, this verse shows that God will give the graces necessary for the elect to persevere. Thus, they will be preserved. But the verse says nothing about how we can ever know who is among God’s elect.

Psalm 121:3,7-8 – “He will not let your foot be moved, He who keeps you will not slumber. The Lord will keep you from all evil; He will keep your life. The Lord will keep your going out and your coming in from this time forth and forever more.” This is another example of proverbial literature about how God will preserve His elect. But this also depends upon human cooperation. The verse is about how faithful God will be, not how faithful we will be.

Jer. 32:40 – God will make them an everlasting covenant, that He will not turn away from doing good to them; and He will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. This is another verse which describes the faithfulness of God and how He, through His grace, causes the elect to persevere to the end. But there are never any teachings in Scripture about how we know whether we are part of God’s elect.

kate
06-29-2007, 05:04 AM
very well said.
One question though for Catholics, why is it that the Catholic church decided the bible wasn't enough (God's inspired word written through chosen authors) and added more books to it? Don't they know the trouble they will have to face when they die for that?

Sola scriptura is unhistorical. It isn't that the Catholic church decided it wasn't enough it was NEVER used solely in the early Church. Things were passed down orally and traditionally in the early church. It wasn't until the reformation that it was decided that scripture alone should be enough. It wasn't that the Catholic Church changed it was that the formers of Protestantism decided that they needed to be different and that Scripture alone would be now enough. So it wasn't that the Catholic Church deccided something would be done, it was those separating from the church.

The books of the Catholic Bible, again weren't added. They were there originally. They are all OT books. They were the books that the Alexandrian Jews included in their Scriptures. When Luther decided to part from the church and the Protestant Reformation happened they deleted those books (again, see it's not the Catholic Church making a change but yet those who decided we weren't doing it right based upon the abuses and corruption at the time). The Protestants who formed after the reformation decided to go with the books that were accepted by the Palestinian Canon, in other words included in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Alexandrian Jews did what was called the Greek Scriptures of the OT. The early church universally used the Alexandrian Canon as the basis for the OT. Even Luther began the reformation using it. So to say that the Catholics added them is false.



But still, as a former Catholic, now born again Christian, I have always wondered why the priests didn't read the bible, because it seemed to me that if they did, they would see the errors of their ways and repent.
yes the priests read the Bible and anyone that attends Mass hears/reads it at least weekly. When I hear scriptures that Proestants think back their cause I hear things that make Catholicism stronger. It's not so black and white.


As for Mary worship, it is indeed worship, I was there for many years, I lived it, I did it, it was nothing out of respect or love, but worship.
It seemed to me that we spent more time on Mary than we did our Father.
In your opinion. I've NEVER seen anything close to worship and I've been a Catholic my whole life. I have seen some members of the church put a little too much into Mary but on the whole the Church doesn't worship Mary.



The Catholic church teaches that sin is ok, and just confess it to "MAN" (which is a sin in itself) and it will all be ok.
That is absolutely false and if you think that is the teaching on Sin then you either didn't pay attention or were misinformed. It's a lot more in depth then that.


Now of course I will get flamed for this, go ahead, I am not speaking on anything that I have no knowledge about, like I said, I lived it.

And obviously didn't pay attention during CCD or your view of it is colored by your new faith because everything you said is patently false.

27Summers
06-29-2007, 07:58 AM
Sola scriptura is unhistorical. It isn't that the Catholic church decided it wasn't enough it was NEVER used solely in the early Church. Things were passed down orally and traditionally in the early church. It wasn't until the reformation that it was decided that scripture alone should be enough. It wasn't that the Catholic Church changed it was that the formers of Protestantism decided that they needed to be different and that Scripture alone would be now enough. So it wasn't that the Catholic Church deccided something would be done, it was those separating from the church.

The books of the Catholic Bible, again weren't added. They were there originally. They are all OT books. They were the books that the Alexandrian Jews included in their Scriptures. When Luther decided to part from the church and the Protestant Reformation happened they deleted those books (again, see it's not the Catholic Church making a change but yet those who decided we weren't doing it right based upon the abuses and corruption at the time). The Protestants who formed after the reformation decided to go with the books that were accepted by the Palestinian Canon, in other words included in the Hebrew Scriptures. The Alexandrian Jews did what was called the Greek Scriptures of the OT. The early church universally used the Alexandrian Canon as the basis for the OT. Even Luther began the reformation using it. So to say that the Catholics added them is false.


yes the priests read the Bible and anyone that attends Mass hears/reads it at least weekly. When I hear scriptures that Proestants think back their cause I hear things that make Catholicism stronger. It's not so black and white.

In your opinion. I've NEVER seen anything close to worship and I've been a Catholic my whole life. I have seen some members of the church put a little too much into Mary but on the whole the Church doesn't worship Mary.



That is absolutely false and if you think that is the teaching on Sin then you either didn't pay attention or were misinformed. It's a lot more in depth then that.



And obviously didn't pay attention during CCD or your view of it is colored by your new faith because everything you said is patently false.


first off, it is not a new faith that I live by, I have been a born again Christian since 1991.
Nothing I have said is false, I have dona a lot of reading and research on the Catholic church since becoming a Christian, and there is a whole world of things way too deep for the average catholic to grasp.

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/mary.htm

Also, we are not saved by works as the catholic church teaches, and no, you cannot LOSE your salvation, but if you are not living a life for Christ, then you will not have the rewards that are there for you in Heaven, but you will go to heaven, not purgatory (there is no purgatory)
personally, I got no pleasure from a church that decieves it members like the catholic church does, and who adds sins, takes away sins and changes constantly to keep up with members.

Are Roman Catholics Christian?
Are Roman Catholics Christians? They are if they have trusted in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins. However, if they believe that the are saved by God's grace and their works, then they are not saved -- even if they believe their works are done by God's grace -- since they then deny the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

Being a Christian does not mean being a member of the Roman Catholic Church. It means being a member of the body of Christ which is accomplished by faith and trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of your sins. It means that you do not add your works to His work. Sincerity doesn't forgive sins. Membership in a church doesn't forgive sins. Doing works of penance doesn't forgive sins. Praying to Mary doesn't forgive sins. Forgiveness is received in the faithful trust and acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. You must trust Jesus, God in flesh, for the forgiveness of sins, not a man made ritual and certainly not the catholic saints. Even though Roman Catholic Church affirms the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and His physical resurrection, it greatly errs in its doctrine of salvation by adding works to salvation.

The official Roman Catholic doctrine of salvation is that the grace of God is infused into a baby at baptism -- making him/her justified before God.1 This justification can be lost through sin and must be regained by repeated participation in the many sacraments found in the Roman Catholic Church. These sacraments increase the measure of grace in the person by which he or she is enabled to do good works which are in turn rewarded with the joy of heaven:

"We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 1821).
"Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification," (CCC, par. 2010).
No one can say whether a Roman Catholic is truly a Christian or not since we cannot know people's hearts. But, if anyone, Catholic included, openly denies essential doctrines2 then he is not saved, and this is the problem. It appears that the Roman Catholic church is denying the essential doctrine of justification by faith. It says...

"If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema." (Canon 9, Council of Trent).
"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14, Council of Trent).
For more on this, please see Council of Trent. Canons on Justification.
Notice that justification by faith alone is denied and heaven is the reward for doing good works. This is the problem. The RCC does not teach the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. It teaches justification by faith and works. If you want to see more on this, go to

The Roman Catholic view on justification.
So, what is the CARM position on Roman Catholics?
CARM's position is simple. If a Roman Catholic believes in the official Roman Catholic teaching on salvation, then he is not a Christian since the official RCC position is contrary to scripture. Therefore, as a whole, Roman Catholics need to be evangelized. They need to hear the true Gospel. They need to hear that they are not made right before God by being in a church, or by being baptized, but by receiving Christ (John 1:12), believing that Jesus has risen from the dead (Rom. 10:9), and that justification is by faith (Rom. 5:1) and not by our deeds (Rom. 4:5). It is only true faith that results in true works (James 2), not the other way around. Roman Catholics, like anyone else, need to trust in Jesus alone for the forgiveness of their sins and not the Catholic sacraments, not the words of the priest, not the pope, not Mary, not the saints, not penance, not indulgences, not the rosary, etc. Jesus alone is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6).

Finally, I believe that there are truly regenerate Christians in the Roman Catholic church. But, they are truly Christians in spite of official RCC theology and in spite of the ritualistic offerings of this ancient church which has had too many hands meddling in it through the centuries, gradually moving it away from orthodoxy and into apostasy. Yes apostasy. The Roman Catholic Church is no longer representing true Christianity.

Jesus alone saves. Jesus alone is Lord. Only Jesus' sacrifice can cleanse us. Only by faith are we made right before God. Justification is by faith, not by anything we do.




____________
1 "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy," (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 2020).
2. In short, the essentials are the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and justification by grace through faith. Related to these are the Trinity, the virgin birth, and, of course, the gospel itself.

Lasher
06-29-2007, 07:59 AM
I'm gonna bail. I can't nor can I watch soemone else tear down someone elses beliefs. Goes back to the whole demeaning someone else to give your life meaning thing.

27Summers
06-29-2007, 08:02 AM
The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not Christian
Practically all precepts of the Roman Catholic religion contradict the Bible repeatedly. It is the largest cult in the world and most preachers will not openly say so because it is so large. For Catholics who read this, please remember this: the person that tells you the truth is the one that cares.

For a glimpse of the atrocities committed by the Roman Catholic religion, do a net search on the Inquisition or the Crusades. During the Inquisition, the Catholic religion killed millions. Why? Primarily to suppress any and all opposition to the pope. Side "benefits" included taking the material wealth of its victims and showing the pope's power. The Catholic Inquisitors tortured, crippled, burned, and imprisioned millions of people. Whatever happened to love your enemies? (Matthew 5:44)

Before we get to specific problems with Catholic doctrine, let's review how this bloodthirsty organization treated a man who simply wanted to get the Bible into the hands of the common people. In the late 1300s John Wycilf translated the scriptures from the Latin Vulgate. Some 40 odd years after his death, the Catholic religion dug up his bones and burned them calling him an arch-heretick. In the 1500's William Tyndale sought to translate the Bible into the language of the common people, English. He could not gain approval from the Catholic religon so he worked as an outlaw on the run in Europe, translating the Bible. He was eventually captured, condemned and executed in 1536. It is because of people like these men, Tyndale and Wycliffe, that we have the scriptures today. If the Catholic religion had its way, we'd still be in ignorance about the Bible and enslaved to the pope. Time fails me here to tell of other marytrs like John Hus, John Rogers, etc. who were killed by popish persons.

I'll list the catholic tradition first and then what the Bible has to say about the matter.


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Call priests father, e.g., Father McKinley.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Forbidding the priesthood to marry.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS -

1) It is devilish to forbid God's people to marry when He has given marriage to be received with thanksgiving.
1 Timothy
4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2) Peter was married (remember the pope is supposedly continuing the apostolic line through Peter).

Matthew
8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever.

Mark
1:30 But Simon's wife's mother lay sick of a fever, and anon they tell him of her.

Luke
4:38 And he arose out of the synagogue, and entered into Simon's house. And Simon's wife's mother was taken with a great fever; and they besought him for her.

3) Paul, a great apostle, remained single; however he made it very clear that he could marry if he wanted to.

1 Corinthians
9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the queen of heaven.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Worshipping the queen of heaven (which is not the Mary of the Bible) is worshipping another god and it provokes the Lord to anger.

Jeremiah
7:17 Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
7:19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God (see John 1:1). When He came to redeem mankind, He laid aside His glory and was made like unto sinful man so that He could take our punishment (Hebrew 2:9). God has no mother. He has lived from everlasting which means He had no beginning.

Isaiah
43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. [If Mary gave birth to God, she'd be God.]
Psalm
93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

Micah
5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler [Jesus] in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Philippians
2:6 Who [Jesus], being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Pope called Holy Father.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - The term Holy Father is only found one time in the entire Bible. It was when Jesus prayed before He and His disciples went to the garden of Gethsemane. He referred to God the Father as Holy Father. It is blasphemy to call a man by God's name

John
17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
* * * *

27Summers
06-29-2007, 08:03 AM
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Purgatory, nuns, popes.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - None of these is mentioned in the Bible. It is a sin to add to the Bible.

Proverbs
30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
The pope is a man who takes upon himself honor which belongs to no human being. Even the very name by which he allows himself to be called (Holy Father) is highly presumptuous and blasphemous (see above).

One does not need the pope to determine what God's will is. The Bible says that God has given the Holy Ghost to each believer and that He (the Holy Ghost) guides and leads us into all truth. All a believer needs is the Bible and the Holy Ghost to know the will of the Lord. Popery has been treacherous, but worse, each pope has been the blind leading the blind. Jesus said that both will fall into the ditch. Catholics, come out of this system that cannot save and know Jesus for youself, intimate and up-close.

NOTE: Purgatory is supposedly a place where a person is purified of sins--even popes supposedly go there. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is the one that purifies us of our sins. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.... When a person dies their eternal home is sealed--heaven or hell--no in between. Hebrews 9:27 ...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Venerating/worshipping images. Pope bows to statues of Mary, people worship the eucharist and have statues/candles in their homes and churches.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - It is idolatry to venerate images. We are not even supposed to make them.

Exodus
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God...
* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The mass. Through transubstantiation, the wafer/host and the wine supposedly become the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ when the priest prays over them.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus died once for sins, never to be repeated. He sits on the right hand of God and does not reappear in the mass as a mass of blood and flesh.

Hebrews
10:12 But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
John
19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

1 Corinthians
11:24 And when he [Jesus] had given thanks, he brake it [bread], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come (not for the forgiveness of sins or to receive Jesus).

CATHOLIC TRADITION - Saved, in part, by good works.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Good works are the fruits that grow out of being saved. They do not make you saved. An apple does not make its tree an apple tree, it was already an apple tree before any apples appeared. When you see the apples; however, you know what kind of tree it is. If a person is saved, he will shew forth good works because he has the spirit of Christ in him. The good works don't make him saved only the blood of Jesus can do that.

I John
1:7b ...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
Acts 16:31b
...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

What about James 2:20 "faith without works is dead"?

The kind of faith that saves is a faith that shows forth the works of God. Even devils believe in Jesus and tremble (James 2:19). Many people believe in Jesus but they won't follow Him. They have a faith, but not the kind that saves. If a person has true faith in Jesus, the Holy Ghost dwells in him and will cause good works will show forth in his life. The good works confirm the faith by which the person was saved. James 2:21-23 uses Abraham as an example. Abraham believed God so when God asked him to sacrifice his son Isaac, Abraham, out of his faith in God, offered up Isaac.


* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - The church is founded on Peter.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church. Peter was a man like you and me. Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 when Peter rebuked Jesus dying. When Cornelius tried to worship Peter, Peter responded, "Stand up; I myself also am a man." (Acts 10:26). The pope needs to remember Acts 10:26 when he has men bowing to him and kissing his hand like he is worthy of worship.

1 Corinthians
3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Matthew
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected [Jesus], the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Confessing sins to a priest. Petitioning saints and Mary.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - We are to confess our sins and needs to God alone.

I John
1:9 If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Matthew
6:9, 12 After this manner...pray ye: Our Father... forgive us....

1 Timothy
2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus [not Mary, not saints, not priests, not the pope];

I John 2:1, ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

* * * *
There are many other scriptures that could have been used here to testify against the doctrines of the catholic religion. There are also many other doctrines of the catholic religion which could have been refuted (e.g. the sacraments, receiving the Holy Ghost, salvation through the catholic religion, penance, rosary, etc.).

* * * *
The Catholic religion has a history of taking the money of poor widows in order to say masses for the dead (which do no good) and collecting the material possessions of nuns. In Italy, the heart of Roman Catholicism, there is an often used saying that goes, "Without money, they don't sing the mass." That is really pitiful on several fronts--1) mass is blasphemous and people who trust in it are hell-bound 2) there's no such thing as purgatory and 3) the gift of God is without price.

Roman Catholicism today is probably the wealthiest government in the world. It owns a good share of America's hospitals and has healthy real estate interests. The bottom line is, if you want to get right with God, you have to go through His Son, Jesus Christ, not some religious organization.

27Summers
06-29-2007, 08:06 AM
I'm gonna bail. I can't nor can I watch soemone else tear down someone elses beliefs. Goes back to the whole demeaning someone else to give your life meaning thing.


I am not tearing down anyones beliefs, I am not demeaning anyone here for my own gain either, I am simply stating truth, out of love for the lost, that is all. I went through this myself when I was a catholic and it was only out of love that another person shared the true gospel with me.


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

janelle
06-29-2007, 10:16 AM
27Summers like DtroitPunk, before you argue a point about Catholic teachings, it would be best if you took the time to understand the teachings of the Church. You have very long, misguided quotes, simply becuase you do not know what the Church teaches. So you are making arguments against things that are not taught by the Church.

DP could not, has not to this point, been able to show where the teaching on Mary that he quoted from the Cathecism is in error. He has provided no scripture to support his statement that the teaching is in error. We are still waiting to see his scriptural response to that teaching. Likewise, may we suggest you do similarly. Find a teaching in the Cathecism you believe to be in error and then state your case using the scriptures. We are confident you will not be able to do so but we are open to hear what you may have to say.

Please, whatever you do, do not use resources other that the Catechism to state the teachings of the Church. There have been lots of posts of websites that have nothing to do with the real teachings but a whole lot to do with misguided and false allegations of what the Church teaches. So to have a consistant point of reference we will us the Cathecism of the Catholic Church to learn the teachings of the Church. We will use the scriptures to show that the teachings of the Church are based on the scriptures.

We have been Christians far longer than what some of you are stating is your experience. We have been Christians longer than some of you have in years on this earth. However, we also realize that such longevity qualifies us for nothing. It is our fiath in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior that gives us any qualification for anything in life.

We will wait as long as the good Lord wants us to wait for real responses to the teachings of the Catholic Church as stated in the Cathecism of the Church.

Lasher
06-29-2007, 11:42 AM
I am not tearing down anyones beliefs, I am not demeaning anyone here for my own gain either, I am simply stating truth, out of love for the lost, that is all. I went through this myself when I was a catholic and it was only out of love that another person shared the true gospel with me.


http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp

If I had been referring to you specifically, I would have quoted you, then replied indicating that my comments were directed towards you. And as I stated earlier in the thread I hate religous tracks, and recycle about 100 a week that I get at work.

janelle
06-29-2007, 11:46 AM
27Summers you also have found a conspiracy web site. Says we WORSHIP Mary. Seems it has found conspiracies in every aspect of life if you go to the homepage. Our government is in a conspiracy.

Where and why do all of these fringe web sites spring up? I guess there are gullible people out there hungry for this kind of entertainment and they supply it for them.

I would advise anyone who comes upon a web site to fully examine the people who put it up. Just what is their agenda? True Catholics can see right through their lies about the church. Only those who know just a little about the church will be fooled.

YankeeMary
06-29-2007, 04:52 PM
I'm gonna bail. I can't nor can I watch soemone else tear down someone elses beliefs. Goes back to the whole demeaning someone else to give your life meaning thing.

I have to agree with you here. I too, shall bail.

kate
06-29-2007, 05:47 PM
DP could not, has not to this point, been able to show where the teaching on Mary that he quoted from the Cathecism is in error. He has provided no scripture to support his statement that the teaching is in error. We are still waiting to see his scriptural response to that teaching. Likewise, may we suggest you do similarly. Find a teaching in the Cathecism you believe to be in error and then state your case using the scriptures. We are confident you will not be able to do so but we are open to hear what you may have to say.


Nor has he been able to refute the information I posted TWICE about why Catholics believe Mary was a virgin and didn't have other children. He has also not shown me where it is Biblical to believe in sola scriptura.

I, like Janelle, will debate points about the church but I'm not going to wade through long lengthy multi-post posts about the church with no real argument or thought. If you have a point stick to one thing at a time. Sites in general that bash the church but don't actually take into consideration what is said are not something I'm going to address.

DtroitPunk
06-30-2007, 09:46 PM
Nor has he been able to refute the information I posted TWICE about why Catholics believe Mary was a virgin and didn't have other children. He has also not shown me where it is Biblical to believe in sola scriptura.

I, like Janelle, will debate points about the church but I'm not going to wade through long lengthy multi-post posts about the church with no real argument or thought. If you have a point stick to one thing at a time. Sites in general that bash the church but don't actually take into consideration what is said are not something I'm going to address.

There are so many people with misunderstood views here that I just dont have the time to answer them all specifically, but 27Summers did find some info here.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.


People can try ALL they want to say that Brethren means cousin or whatever, but the Bible doesnt say ANYWHERE that MAry never had any other children, in fact the evidence seems to point the other way. Especially since the bible also teaches us that a husband and wife are not to deny each other physically. So if Mary WAS a perpetual virgin she would not be doing Gods will toward her husband. This is a false teaching just one of many.

DtroitPunk
06-30-2007, 10:02 PM
Janelle had some things to say in an earlier post, I am addressing this portion of her post.

"DP could not, has not to this point, been able to show where the teaching on Mary that he quoted from the Cathecism is in error. He has provided no scripture to support his statement that the teaching is in error. We are still waiting to see his scriptural response..."

HMM, well the bible tells us much and it is also telling what it doesnt tell us. I will paste a small part of one of my earlier posts.

"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.


Ok the bible NEVER says that Mary should have or has been warded by God a special place of devotion, nor does it say that devotion to her is or should be intrinsic to Christian worship. What the bible doesnt say can be just as effective as what it does say. The bible also NEVER called Mary the Mother of God and NOWHERE in the Bible does it tells us to flee to Mary in danger or need. This is actually just one of the times when we should GO TO GOD. By showing that MAN not the Bible has given Mary this standing I have shown scripturally that the Catechism is in error. Saying that all generations shall call her blessed is LIGHT YEARS away from placing her central to faith.

janelle
06-30-2007, 10:59 PM
Janelle had some things to say in an earlier post, I am addressing this portion of her post.

"DP could not, has not to this point, been able to show where the teaching on Mary that he quoted from the Catechism is in error. He has provided no scripture to support his statement that the teaching is in error. We are still waiting to see his scriptural response..."

HMM, well the bible tells us much and it is also telling what it doesn't tell us. I will paste a small part of one of my earlier posts.

"The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.


Ok the bible NEVER says that Mary should have or has been warded by God a special place of devotion, nor does it say that devotion to her is or should be intrinsic to Christian worship. What the bible doesn't say can be just as effective as what it does say. The bible also NEVER called Mary the Mother of God and NOWHERE in the Bible does it tells us to flee to Mary in danger or need. This is actually just one of the times when we should GO TO GOD. By showing that MAN not the Bible has given Mary this standing I have shown scripturally that the Catechism is in error. Saying that all generations shall call her blessed is LIGHT YEARS away from placing her central to faith.

DP, we showed you where in the first chapter of Luke the angle Gabriel gives a special devotion to Mary, we showed you where Elizabeth gives a special devotion to Mary, John the Baptist gives that special devotion while still in Elizabeth's womb in his recognition of the presence of the Christ, then Mary herself says that all generations shall call her blessed. THIS IS THE BIBLE MAN. Why do you ignore the scriptures and then say that it is not there?

Please do not go into a semantically argument that the words "special devotion" are not there. The actions and statements of these people and angle are special devotion. Please also recognize that special devotion is NOT worship. The Catechism quote you gave clearly points out that worship is only for God.

You have given a dishonest argument by ignoring the scriptures and claiming that the scriptures are silent on this issue. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. I suppose you will also ignore the devotion given to the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Was that worship of the Ark? We don't believe that. But it is a special devotion for it's important contents, the tablets of the ten commandments. Mary is important because of her contents, Jesus the Christ. We should never desecrate the Arks God has given us. We worship Jesus the Christ. We hold in high esteem the people whom God chose to use in delivering the Christ and his message to a fallen world.

The Catholic Church has chosen to follow the scriptures in her devotion to Mary. We affirm and have demonstrated that the scriptures call us to a special devotion to Mary and worship of her son, Jesus the Christ.

We continue to pray for you as you work to learn more about Christ's Church.

DtroitPunk
06-30-2007, 11:44 PM
DP, we showed you where in the first chapter of Luke the angle Gabriel gives a special devotion to Mary, we showed you where Elizabeth gives a special devotion to Mary, John the Baptist gives that special devotion while still in Elizabeth's womb in his recognition of the presence of the Christ, then Mary herself says that all generations shall call her blessed. THIS IS THE BIBLE MAN. Why do you ignore the scriptures and then say that it is not there?

Please do not go into a semantically argument that the words "special devotion" are not there. The actions and statements of these people and angle are special devotion. Please also recognize that special devotion is NOT worship. The Catechism quote you gave clearly points out that worship is only for God.

You have given a dishonest argument by ignoring the scriptures and claiming that the scriptures are silent on this issue. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. I suppose you will also ignore the devotion given to the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Was that worship of the Ark? We don't believe that. But it is a special devotion for it's important contents, the tablets of the ten commandments. Mary is important because of her contents, Jesus the Christ. We should never desecrate the Arks God has given us. We worship Jesus the Christ. We hold in high esteem the people whom God chose to use in delivering the Christ and his message to a fallen world.

The Catholic Church has chosen to follow the scriptures in her devotion to Mary. We affirm and have demonstrated that the scriptures call us to a special devotion to Mary and worship of her son, Jesus the Christ.

We continue to pray for you as you work to learn more about Christ's Church.

I am through talking to you. I do not ignore scripture EVER, but I also dont TWIST it. MAry is never called the Ark of the new covenant, in fact the bible doesnt have Ark of the new covenant in it anywhere. One can read about MAry in many places in the bible but starting with Luke 1:39-49 we can see that Mary doesnt consider herself special but blessed by God as an instrument to his glory. All of us owe her a thanks as the vessel that brought forth our savior. But that is all. She is not and should not be an object/person of special reverance or devotion.

To say that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ is the height of Arrogance. And to say that the the catholic church follows the scripture in devotion to Mary is either wishful thinking or a bald faced lie. The bible does not give special devotion to Mary. Saying that all generations shall call you blessed just isnt the same as saying that ALL shall pay ypu special devotion and pray to you in addition to God

This is not semantics this is doctrine. When a question of doctrine arises we must look to the bible for a settlement.

And does the bible EVER show anyone reacting this way after Mary gave birth? NO it does not which would lead one to believe that people were rejoicing and reacting to JESUS not Mary. ANYONE who can be used by God for the delivering of mans soul is certainly blessed for being chosen.

No other religion places such importance on Mary. If the bible clearly taught that devotion to Mary was Central to faith dont you think MORE Christian religions would follow this. Especially ones who take the bible literally?

janelle
07-01-2007, 10:00 AM
I am through talking to you. I do not ignore scripture EVER, but I also dont TWIST it. MAry is never called the Ark of the new covenant, in fact the bible doesnt have Ark of the new covenant in it anywhere. One can read about MAry in many places in the bible but starting with Luke 1:39-49 we can see that Mary doesnt consider herself special but blessed by God as an instrument to his glory. All of us owe her a thanks as the vessel that brought forth our savior. But that is all. She is not and should not be an object/person of special reverance or devotion.

To say that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ is the height of Arrogance. And to say that the the catholic church follows the scripture in devotion to Mary is either wishful thinking or a bald faced lie. The bible does not give special devotion to Mary. Saying that all generations shall call you blessed just isnt the same as saying that ALL shall pay ypu special devotion and pray to you in addition to God

This is not semantics this is doctrine. When a question of doctrine arises we must look to the bible for a settlement.

And does the bible EVER show anyone reacting this way after Mary gave birth? NO it does not which would lead one to believe that people were rejoicing and reacting to JESUS not Mary. ANYONE who can be used by God for the delivering of mans soul is certainly blessed for being chosen.

No other religion places such importance on Mary. If the bible clearly taught that devotion to Mary was Central to faith dont you think MORE Christian religions would follow this. Especially ones who take the bible literally?

DP, wow, you really are reaching here aren't you? Most Christian Faiths in the world hold Mary in high esteem with Special Devotion. In fact, that was the exclusive teachings for over 1,500 years of Christianity. It was not until a new group of people, who are now called Protestants, that there was a denial of these truths about Mary. And for that matter there are Protestant faiths today that also hold a special devotion for Mary, but not many. The vast majority of Christians today hold and believe these teachings. They are not exclusive to Roman Catholics. Protestants are in the minority on this teaching.

We are sorry that you are not able to connect the dots in the Scriptures. Salvation history begins in Genesis and is carried out through the Scriptures even into Revelations. Mary is an integral part of salvation history. You cannot say that we did not show you in the Scriptures that this teaching, one you chose to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is based upon the Scriptures. You chose to not follow that teaching. We are sorry, that is your loss. It does not make you any less of a Christian. It just takes away from you tools that we Catholics use everyday. Your basic premise was that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not based upon the Bible. We have shown this teaching to be based on the Bible. So what other teaching of the Catholic Church do you believe is not based upon the Bible? So far, from what you have found in the Catechism you are 0 for 1.

We will continue to pray for you as you learn more about Christ's Church. By the way where is the arrogance in this? Is this not what we all want to do - to serve Jesus in His Church? We thought that was the definition of Christianity. We believe we are commanded in the Scriptures to pray for one another, to help one another, to encourage one another. Our prayers for you are in this same spirit.

kate
07-01-2007, 11:50 AM
There are so many people with misunderstood views here that I just dont have the time to answer them all specifically, but 27Summers did find some info here.

* * * *
CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary never had other children after the Lord Jesus. A perpetual virgin.

WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary and Joseph indeed had children. They were the Lord's half brothers and sisters for their father was Joseph and mother was Mary.

Matthew
13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mark
6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.


People can try ALL they want to say that Brethren means cousin or whatever, but the Bible doesnt say ANYWHERE that MAry never had any other children, in fact the evidence seems to point the other way. Especially since the bible also teaches us that a husband and wife are not to deny each other physically. So if Mary WAS a perpetual virgin she would not be doing Gods will toward her husband. This is a false teaching just one of many.

Yet you are forgetting that in the time the Bible was written it was common for the language use to use brother in many ways. Plus that still doesn't address the quotes that I gave regarding Mary, John, and the cross. Why would Jesus have given his mother to John had he brothers to take care of her. THAT was the tradition of the time. Once the husband died the children cared for and took the mother into their home. If one of them died it fell to another sibling. Jesus would have had NO reason to give his mother a new son had he siblings.

Oh and look here are some BIBLICAL references to support that point. From Catholic.com

When trying to understand these verses, note that the term "brother" (Greek: adelphos) has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to the literal meaning of a full brother or half-brother. The same goes for "sister" (adelphe) and the plural form "brothers" (adelphoi). The Old Testament shows that "brother" had a wide semantic range of meaning and could refer to any male relative from whom you are not descended (male relatives from whom you are descended are known as "fathers") and who are not descended from you (your male descendants, regardless of the number of generations removed, are your "sons"), as well as kinsmen such as cousins, those who are members of the family by marriage or by law rather than by blood, and even friends or mere political allies (2 Sam. 1:26; Amos 1:9).

Lot, for example, is called Abraham’s "brother" (Gen. 14:14), even though, being the son of Haran, Abraham’s brother (Gen. 11:26–28), he was actually Abraham’s nephew. Similarly, Jacob is called the "brother" of his uncle Laban (Gen. 29:15). Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Mahli. Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their "brethren," the sons of Kish. These "brethren" were really their cousins (1 Chr. 23:21–22).

The terms "brothers," "brother," and "sister" did not refer only to close relatives. Sometimes they meant kinsmen (Deut. 23:7; Neh. 5:7; Jer. 34:9), as in the reference to the forty-two "brethren" of King Azariah (2 Kgs. 10:13–14).

Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother" or a circumlocution, such as "the son of my uncle." But circumlocutions are clumsy, so the Jews often used "brother."

The writers of the New Testament were brought up using the Aramaic equivalent of "brothers" to mean both cousins and sons of the same father—plus other relatives and even non-relatives. When they wrote in Greek, they did the same thing the translators of the Septuagint did. (The Septuagint was the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible; it was translated by Hellenistic Jews a century or two before Christ’s birth and was the version of the Bible from which most of the Old Testament quotations found in the New Testament are taken.)

In the Septuagint the Hebrew word that includes both brothers and cousins was translated as adelphos, which in Greek usually has the narrow meaning that the English "brother" has. Unlike Hebrew or Aramaic, Greek has a separate word for cousin, anepsios, but the translators of the Septuagint used adelphos, even for true cousins.

You might say they transliterated instead of translated, importing the Jewish idiom into the Greek Bible. They took an exact equivalent of the Hebrew word for "brother" and did not use adelphos in one place (for sons of the same parents), and anepsios in another (for cousins). This same usage was employed by the writers of the New Testament and passed into English translations of the Bible.



You cannot read the Bible literally if you are going to ignore the time that it was written, the custom, the language, and the meaning. If you want to read it literally I think you need to study Hebrew, Greek, and Latin so that you can get the true meaning of the scripture. Reading it in English, if you are going to read it literally, is too far removed from the original.



And I'm still not surprised that you have not been able to give me scriptural references that show that sola scriptura is biblical.

DtroitPunk
07-01-2007, 03:25 PM
Yet you are forgetting that in the time the Bible was written it was common for the language use to use brother in many ways. Plus that still doesn't address the quotes that I gave regarding Mary, John, and the cross. Why would Jesus have given his mother to John had he brothers to take care of her. THAT was the tradition of the time. Once the husband died the children cared for and took the mother into their home. If one of them died it fell to another sibling. Jesus would have had NO reason to give his mother a new son had he siblings.

Oh and look here are some BIBLICAL references to support that point. From Catholic.com



You cannot read the Bible literally if you are going to ignore the time that it was written, the custom, the language, and the meaning. If you want to read it literally I think you need to study Hebrew, Greek, and Latin so that you can get the true meaning of the scripture. Reading it in English, if you are going to read it literally, is too far removed from the original.



And I'm still not surprised that you have not been able to give me scriptural references that show that sola scriptura is biblical.

I have found a page of info that clearly states the brethtren (language) issue.

PLease see

http://members.aol.com/twarren11/sisters.htm

And for a clear answer on did Jesus have siblings also see

http://www.remnantofgod.org/Virgin.htm

It addresses your post. As for why Jesus said what he said to James and Mary, He was severing the familial relationship and passing on responsibilities. If you lose a child you could completely fall apart, but knowing (being reminded) that you have another child to watch over and care for (even if grown) can be stabilizing. And Jesus had been responsible for all who followed him during his preaching as a good Preacher/leader should be but as he was dying he spoke ONCE AGAIN as one with authority as the KING he was and passes responsibility for the care of their mother to the younger brother James.
Jesus spoke 7 times as he was dying on te cross Seven is the number of Completion all through the bible. Why would he say anything during this time without reason? Everything he said in life was important.

ANd it is interesting that the only scriptural support you can find for your posts is culled from CATHOLIC sources.

And as for Sola Scriptura....Firstly given time I can answer ANY questions of faith or doctrine that you pose. I will never take a stand unsupported by Gods word. That being said I dont say nor does the Bible teach that there can be NO teaching or research outside the bible, BUT if any teaching does not align with the bible, the bible is the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY which ALL believers go to.

The only reason this is a problem is because MANY people place limits on God. You cant believe that God has the power to Preserve his Word or to provide ALL we need. Or you think that becuase the English translation isnt WORD FOR WORD what is said in Hbrew, Greek and Aramaic that we must have no faith in its literal reading.

In points of Doctrine the KJV has never been proven to be in error yet! Even what they were able to translate form the Dead Sea Scrolls confirms this back to a much further time in antiquity.

But I also found a REALLY good site that addresses this please read the excerpt below and if you are open to Biblical knowledge and learning please read the whole page to be found here.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/bible/sola_scriptura.shtml


"Although there are some Roman Catholic Church apologists that declare this doctrine was not even heard of until "the reformation" of the 16th century, this is an untenable charge. It is an inaccurate and self-serving claim that can be proven false quite easily (even apart from scripture). Read this quote from the 5th century, eleven hundred years before the Reformation and see if you can guess who wrote it:


This Mediator (Jesus Christ), having spoken what He judged sufficient first by the prophets, then by His own lips, and afterwards by the apostles, has besides produced the scripture which is called canonical, which has Paramount Authority, and to which we yield assent in all matters of which we ought not to be ignorant, and yet cannot know of ourselves.
Do you know who authored this affirmation of the doctrine of Sola Scriptura? Can you tell who wrote this quote declaring scripture the paramount authority to which we yield? The author is Saint Augustine of Hippo. It's a quote taken directly from his book "City of God" (book 11, Chapter 3). This unambiguous declaration by Augustine is about as definitive a statement for Sola Scriptura as any Protestant declaration you're going to read. So this argument that the reformers invented this doctrine is proven false both by history, and the Bible. The word of God both is now, and has always been the supreme authority of the Church. As indeed we saw demonstrated even in the days of the Priest Hilkiah when he caused God's people to be refreshed by the holy scriptures. Yes, the phrase Sola Scriptura is a relatively modern Latin term, but obviously that doesn't mean that what it delineates was not Church doctrine from the beginning. It is clear that Christ Himself, the Apostles, and the early Church, all deferred to authority of scripture. Paul taught from the scriptures continually as he tried to get his kinsmen to accept authority of scripture rather than their congregational leaders (e.g., The Bereans -Acts 17:11). "

Please read and understand with Prayer and an open heart and mind.

DtroitPunk
07-01-2007, 03:34 PM
DP, wow, you really are reaching here aren't you? Most Christian Faiths in the world hold Mary in high esteem with Special Devotion. In fact, that was the exclusive teachings for over 1,500 years of Christianity. It was not until a new group of people, who are now called Protestants, that there was a denial of these truths about Mary. And for that matter there are Protestant faiths today that also hold a special devotion for Mary, but not many. The vast majority of Christians today hold and believe these teachings. They are not exclusive to Roman Catholics. Protestants are in the minority on this teaching.

We are sorry that you are not able to connect the dots in the Scriptures. Salvation history begins in Genesis and is carried out through the Scriptures even into Revelations. Mary is an integral part of salvation history. You cannot say that we did not show you in the Scriptures that this teaching, one you chose to quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, is based upon the Scriptures. You chose to not follow that teaching. We are sorry, that is your loss. It does not make you any less of a Christian. It just takes away from you tools that we Catholics use everyday. Your basic premise was that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not based upon the Bible. We have shown this teaching to be based on the Bible. So what other teaching of the Catholic Church do you believe is not based upon the Bible? So far, from what you have found in the Catechism you are 0 for 1.

We will continue to pray for you as you learn more about Christ's Church. By the way where is the arrogance in this? Is this not what we all want to do - to serve Jesus in His Church? We thought that was the definition of Christianity. We believe we are commanded in the Scriptures to pray for one another, to help one another, to encourage one another. Our prayers for you are in this same spirit.


ALL I can say is I wish we could take a vote from everyone who reads these posts. Catholics are Mostly going to agree with you, but I believe that ANYONE else Muslim whatever reading all the postings here and going back to the bible where directed, are going to clearly see that one position is false.

Of course this was a wide spread belief EARLY on because for the most part once Organized religion came into being it was CATHOLICISM there really were no other believers, the crusades and excommunication saw to that. Just because the majority of people believe a thing this doesnt make it so.

Most Scientist believe that there is no God. Most scientists believe that naturalistic causes are sufficient to explain life one earth. They certainly arent correct.

Just as many Catholics call the CHURCH the Church of Christ? Christ NEVER started any organized religion or built any physical churches.

It is clear that unless I jump around in the bible and accept things like devotion to Mary based on scanty misinterpreted quotes of scripture, I will not agree with you. And unless you are willing to accept the literal plain english of the Bible and cast aside indoctrination and teachings of man, you will never agree with me.

Lets just agree to disagree and hope and pray that WHichever of us is wrong God will lead to a fuller understanding of his Will for his Glory.

DtroitPunk
07-01-2007, 03:46 PM
I apologize folks, but I am pretty much going to leave this thread alone from now on. This wasnt even the purpose of this thread.

I am wasting my time with most Catholics here, they keep on insisting that the teachings of the Catechism are scriptural. I show that they are not, and the "show" that they are. The difference is I dont have to jump from here to there or explain the quotes meaning or intent to defend my position.

I will read up on here from time to time but unless I see an earnest question or someone asks for my help, I am pretty much through.

I have invested alot of time to these threads and MOST of the people I am talking to just dont seem reasonable. IF anyone here could SHOW me from the Bible that I was wrong on ANY central point of my faith, I would welcome it! I want to be as fully in Gods will and understanding as I can be. There is no tradition or teaching of family or Church that I would not let go of If I was shown conclusively form the bible that it was unscriptural.

Others enjoy their traditions too much to even think of letting them go.

My hope is that all come to a True understanding of Jesus and His word the bible as it is the key to how we should conduct ourselves live our lives and gives us our key to understanding Salvation.

janelle
07-01-2007, 08:01 PM
DP, we agree with you that we should agree to disagree. The teachings on Mary are not central to Christian faith. Mary points to her son Jesus the Christ. It is Jesus the Christ from whom our salvation comes. No one else.

However, we also request that you discontinue your fallacious attacks on the Catholic Church. You clearly do not wish to look at the Church's teachings with an open mind. We have not attacked your beliefs. We have only defended our faith. All of the teachings of the Catholic Church are firmly rooted in the scriptures. You chose to not acknowledge this. Rather you say things like, "It is clear that unless I jump around in the bible and accept things like devotion to Mary based on scanty misinterpreted quotes of scripture, I will not agree with you". It is not a fair or reasonable position to argue the teachings of the Church when you have not invested the time to understand the teachings. It appears to us that these teachings are beyond your current ability to understand. Maybe because you approach them from a closed mind, we cannot say for certain. But regardless of the reason for your not being able to comprehend these teachings, your making attacks and arguments against them is only insulting to our faith.

We have said before that you do not understand that which you are arguing. You do not know what you think you know about the Catholic faith. So we request that you stop the fallacious attacks. They are only rooted in your ignorance of the teachings. Those attacks are not rooted in the scriptures. In fact, the scriptures warn against causing such discourse.

Please also keep in mind that not one single word in the scriptures was written in English. Yes, we all can read English. But you cannot read the scriptures from any single translation and get a clear understanding of the passage. If we need to do some serious research we use multiple translations to get a better understanding. Better yet many have learned the ancient Greek and Hebrew so that they can read the original text. We don't have those skills and we are not biblical scholars. But we each strive to know and understand God's teachings so that we can serve Him in the manner that He wishes for us to serve.

Also, a word about science. We know and have known many scientists. For the most part science is man's attempts to understand what God already knows. This understanding of science has brought many scientists to Christ.

So while we agree to disagree on the doctrine of devotion to Mary, can we also agree to not attack the teachings of the Catholic faith? Let us rather pray earnestly for each other, that the Spirit will lead us to a greater understanding of God and how each of us is to serve Him better in this life.

ahippiechic
07-01-2007, 08:28 PM
I actually agree with Janelle (& that's a 1st, I think) and a few others here who keep saying that most catholics don't worship Mary, only honor. There is a difference. And no, I'm not Catholic, never have been. I was raised Southern Baptist and now I'm don't claim to be any particular religion, although I like learning about all of them.

evrita
07-01-2007, 08:31 PM
Wasnt this thread about starbucks ?

Katt
07-01-2007, 08:38 PM
Wasnt this thread about starbucks ?

I think so, at one point and time.

janelle
07-01-2007, 08:53 PM
LOL, yes it is. I would suggest if anyone wants to debate religion to start another thread.

Also, I hear many Protestants on TV and elsewhere call other members in their church brothers and sisters. Catholics do not say that of other members. I was confused when I first heard it as I thought these were terms for relatives in our modern day life. Then I realized they were using the bible usage of brother and sister. Not relatives but those who they felt a kinship to.

I don't understand how they could now say brother and sister ONLY mean relatives. Confusing.

janelle
07-01-2007, 09:04 PM
http://www.remnantofgod.org/

DP you are again posting from another HATE filled web site. PLEASE do not expect me to take you seriously when you do this. This is insulting to us.

Catholic web sites do not tear down others beliefs or religions. Please try to find sites that do not tear our beliefs and religion down. Whenever people do that it proves they don't have a leg to stand on in their own viewpoints.


Quote from the web site-------

ANTI:

to stand in place of
a subtle imposter
wolf in sheep's clothing
not a violent opposer
a gentle confuser
The Roman Catholic church committed ADULTERY in her relationship with the HUSBANDMAN Christ Jesus. She became ANTIChrist when she stepped against Him.



"The Roman Catholic church has always 'claimed' to be walking "with" Christ. Just as Judas "kissed" Christ, so has Rome "kissed" His Truth. They "softly and gently" send their wolves forward wearing the clothing of a little lamb so as to gentle draw the masses away from Christ. They betray Christ as soft as the kiss of JUDAS!"

Jolie Rouge
07-01-2007, 09:12 PM
Starbucks Coffee Deal With Ethiopia Hailed As Model
29 June 2007
Emad Mekay


Washington - A deal between Starbucks and Ethiopia that ends their trademark dispute and offers more benefits to Ethiopian coffee farmers has been hailed as a potential model for other poor nations seeking to better use the modern trading system, especially the often-controversial intellectual property rights provisions. "This agreement represents a business approach in step with 21st-century standards in its concern for rights rather than charity and for greater equity in supply chains rather than short term profits," said Raymond C. Offenheiser, president of Oxfam America, the advocacy organisation that has been campaigning on behalf of Ethiopia since last October.


"Harnessing market forces and allowing poor countries to benefit from intellectual property rights are keys to creating fairer and more equitable trade. In a modern economy, companies must bring their business models in line with the demands of good corporate citizenship, which goes beyond traditional philanthropic approaches to dealing with poverty," he added.

Activists say that developing countries can now tap intellectual property rights to increase export revenues and improve the security of that income.

The Ethiopians' strategy on patenting their coffee could show the way to others mired in poverty when Western corporations are striking gold over their own products. One key aspect of the Ethiopian experience is that they worked from within the modern intellectual property system to help poor farmers. "Ethiopia's initiative shines a new light on such arrangements between powerful buyers and their developing world suppliers and is trend setting," said Ron Layton, founder of Light Years IP, a Washington-based not-for-profit organisation that says it is dedicated to the use of intellectual property rights to help the poorest countries.

Traditionally intellectual property rights have been used to benefit international corporations and have been blamed for keeping life-saving medicines out of the hands of needy people.

Light Years estimates that 90-95 percent of product value is taken by the distribution chain of products that come from poor nations. Only a few producers have any real control over their products.

But last year Ethiopia set out on a mission to challenge that. Its coffee sector launched a plan to take better advantage of its intellectual property rights.

The poor African nation first applied for the trademark registrations of its specialty coffee brands in the United States, Canada, Japan and other countries. It succeeded in registering several, including Harar, Sidamo and Yirgacheffe.

It also began negotiating with coffee roasters to sign agreements acknowledging the right of Ethiopians to control these brands.

But the U.S. coffee franchise Starbucks dragged its feet and declined to give Ethiopian coffee farmers the right to control their coffee trademarks, even though it had originally promised to do so.

This prompted aggressive campaigns against the Seattle-based company.

Anti-poverty campaigners criticised the cash-laden Starbucks for repeatedly ignoring its social responsibility pledges, running newspaper ads, making phone calls and firing off mass emails. Thousands of activists worldwide took part in the crusade to pressure the coffee company, one of the world's largest and most profitable.

Finally Starbucks agreed this week to sign the deal, which now lets Starbucks use and promote Ethiopian coffee brands in markets both where trademarks exist for the brands as well as where they may not.

The deal is expected to generate more income for Ethiopian farmers.

Currently farmers get only a fraction of the export price when retail prices for specialty coffees can be anywhere from five to 15 times export prices.

Under the new deal, farmers instead would be able to base their export prices more closely on the retail value of their coffees. "This agreement provides cause to be very optimistic about the future of the Ethiopian coffee industry," said Getachew Mengistie, Ethiopian Intellectual Property Office Director General.

Development agencies also greeted the deal as a major victory. "This should help improve the lives of millions of poor farmers, allowing them to send their children to school and access healthcare," Offenheiser of Oxfam said.

There are 15 million people in Ethiopia who are dependent on the country's coffee sector. Coffee is among the most valuable commodities in Ethiopia, one of the world's poorest countries.

Africa is the birthplace of coffee and produces arguably the most exotic taste profile of any coffees in the world.

Starbucks purchases approximately five percent of its high-quality Arabica coffee from African countries of origin such as Ethiopia and Kenya.

One of the world's wealthiest companies, Starbucks says it plans to open at least 2,400 new stores on a global basis in fiscal 2007 as well as 1,700 stores in the United States.

Last year, the company saw a 22 percent increase in total net revenues to 7.8 billion dollars, the equivalent of the entire Gross Domestic Product of Ethiopia, a country of 71 million people, in 2000. It's GDP in 2005 stood at 11.8 billion dollars.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200706300046.html

janelle
07-02-2007, 11:24 AM
Well I guess Starbucks was right. The cups start conversations. Hey, Starbucks look here. LOL

okie
07-02-2007, 10:50 PM
:clapping

very well said.
One question though for Catholics, why is it that the Catholic church decided the bible wasn't enough (God's inspired word written through chosen authors) and added more books to it? Don't they know the trouble they will have to face when they die for that?

(I know other religions have done this as well, and others have written their own entire "bible")
But still, as a former Catholic, now born again Christian, I have always wondered why the priests didn't read the bible, because it seemed to me that if they did, they would see the errors of their ways and repent.

As for Mary worship, it is indeed worship, I was there for many years, I lived it, I did it, it was nothing out of respect or love, but worship.
It seemed to me that we spent more time on Mary than we did our Father.

And I was NEVER taught salvation in a Catholic church, I would be interested to see what that entails.

The Catholic church teaches that sin is ok, and just confess it to "MAN" (which is a sin in itself) and it will all be ok.


after 10 Hail Mary's and 10 Our Fathers of course.

Now of course I will get flamed for this, go ahead, I am not speaking on anything that I have no knowledge about, like I said, I lived it.

My grandparents were Catholic and when I stayed with them on the weekends I went with them to mass. I rarely ever heard anything about God. It was always about worshiping Mary. My husband, who went to mass every week has even said the same thing. As for the repenting, I don't know why a person would need to go to a priest and ask for forgiveness when we are supposed to go to God and admit to our sins and he and only he can forgive us. Btw, I was raised by my other grandparents who are Baptist and that is the religion that I follow.

janelle
07-03-2007, 12:39 AM
Are you sure you were in a Catholic church? I have been going all my life and I hear about God and Christ each week. ?????

Look in Scripture Catholic for the answer on confession. Or I can post it for you.

I can tell you my experience with it. I thought feelings like anger was a sin until the priest told me feelings are not sin, only what we do with the feeling if we act out in a bad way.

It does help tremendously to talk to another person about sin. I will tell the priest things I wouldn't not tell my husband for thinking I may hurt him. And we get graces when we go to confession. It is a sacrament.

Look in Scripture Catholic for what a sacrament is if you do not know.

okie
07-03-2007, 06:27 AM
Are you sure you were in a Catholic church? I have been going all my life and I hear about God and Christ each week. ?????



The name of the church was St. Phillip Neri Catholic Church, so I am almost certain it was a Catholic Church.:rolleyes:

stephanyb
07-03-2007, 09:17 AM
I think anyone who is going to read the bible will have their own way of deciphering it. Ten people can read the bible and you will have ten different opinions on what it said, hence all the different religions that refer to the same bible. I don't think it's right for anyone to tell anyone else they are wrong. This is why Starbucks started to do this whole quote thing in the first place. It shouldn't be looked at as offensive, it's just giving people something to think about and debate. Allowing people to think outside of the box. I'm christian, and I'm also open minded. I understand that not everyone believes in the same thing I do. I think these quotes actually help to bring people togather, and maybe if people start talking about these things they will better understand where the other person is coming from and not be so scared or uniniformed.

ladyb
07-03-2007, 09:37 AM
i must reply to this ..

i get so tired of people saying that jesus isnt real that hes an imaginary friend or whatever like santa.. well im here to tell everyone that jesus is real,hes very real and he is the reason each and every one of us live and breathe today.god bless the people who do not belive in him.

janelle
07-03-2007, 10:34 AM
We must remember the devil (and if you believe in God and what it says in the bible the devil is there too) is very much against Jesus and the saints. He is against good people and will spread all the lies possibe to discredit everything good and holy.

When we see hate talk, that is the devil trying to divide and conquer us. Divide God's people and destroy them is his highest goal.

He hates Jesus the most and he hates Mary who brought Jesus into the world to conquer him. God told the devil He would have the woman crush his head. If you look at some statues of Mary you will see she is standing on a snake, crushing it. That is what she did when she said yes to bringing Jesus into the world as a human man. That is why the devil will not let the lies about her stop or about any of those who believe in God.

The devil hates her and all who believe in God and Jesus so we will get a lot of heat when we believe. This is to be expected, so read your bible and study it so you won't be surprised when it happens. We can fight against it and know Jesus will be on our side. He is more powerful than anything, as you already know.

janelle
07-04-2007, 01:40 PM
MAry is never called the Ark of the new covenant, in fact the bible doesnt have Ark of the new covenant in it anywhere. One can read about MAry in many places in the bible but starting with Luke 1:39-49 we can see that Mary doesnt consider herself special but blessed by God as an instrument to his glory. All of us owe her a thanks as the vessel that brought forth our savior. But that is all. She is not and should not be an object/person of special reverance or devotion.

This post is to clarify for those who may have trouble with DtroitPunk’s (DP) statement that nowhere in the Bible is Mary called the Ark of the New Covenant. The Ark of the New Covenant is not in the Bible.

DP is absolutely correct in both statements. You will not find these terms in the Bible. Here are some other terms you will not find anywhere in the Bible; Christmas, Easter, and Trinity. In fact, we could compile a very long list of terms and phases that are not in the Bible but we use those terms and phrases to describe aspects of our Christian faith. We doubt anyone would seriously question whether there was a first Christmas, the birth of Jesus the Christ. Certainly, no Christian would since this is the second most important event in the earthly life of the Christ. Certainly, no Christian would doubt the Resurrection of Christ, which is described by the term Easter – the singularly most important event in the earthly life of Christ. And few Christians would doubt the Biblical bases for the term Trinity – the term used to describe the triune God as three persons in one God; God the Father, God the Son (Jesus the Christ), and God the Holy Spirit (the Paraclete). So just because a term or phase is not found in the Bible does not mean the term or phase is not Biblical, unless one is going to say that Christmas, Easter, Trinity, and the whole list we did not compile here are not Biblical.

Years ago I took a class on the Old Testament at Wichita State University (a school ran by the Board of Regents of the State of Kansas – this clarification is given only for the benefit of those who might want to accuse me of being indoctrinated by a Catholic College – I did not attend a Catholic College in my tertiary education). This class was part of my undergraduate study; not a requirement, as I now hold an MBA. So study of the Old Testament was not in my core area of study but like all college courses of study, we study a multiple of disciplines to get a well rounded education. This course on the Old Testament was taught by a Jewish man, I believe he was a rabbi but I don’t know this for a fact. He did have a doctorate as we called him Dr. Cohen. During this semester Dr. Cohen lead us threw the Old Testament and showed us how there were recurring themes in the Old Testament. One of those recurring themes, that is pretty obvious, is the effort of the Jewish people to be faithful to God. There was a series of exiles the Jewish people experienced. At least two of those exiles were a direct result of their lack of faithfulness to God. I took this concept of recurring themes into my faith journey.

You see while I am a cradle Catholic, for about 20 years of my life I fellowshipped with Protestant brethren. I grew in my understanding of God with these brethren but eventually came to understand they could only take me so far in my understanding and faithfulness to God. I do not disparage the Protestant brethren. I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that they too have salvation. But I wanted to find a deeper relationship with the Lord and I did not find that deeper relationship with these Protestant brethren. I realize this was my experience, so please understand that while a deeper relationship with God may be found in other communities of Protestants, my experience is that I found it in the Catholic Church. So I returned to the Church.

In my return to the Church, I, of course, retained much of what I learned and experienced in the Protestant chapter of my faith journey. The concept of recurring themes in the scriptures has stuck with me ever since that was shown to me by Dr. Cohen. I too had many concerns about the Marian doctrine taught by the Catholic Church. However, what I learned is that my concerns were out of my ignorance about that teachings. My concerns have been addressed as I studied these teachings and learned the Biblical basis for these teachings. Our friend, DtroitPunk (DP), does not agree with the Biblical basis for the teaching of holding Mary in high honor, calling her blessed and saying that she is the Ark of the New Covenant. We agreed with him to disagree on these issues. However, for the benefit of those who read these posts we did not want you to be left with silence on this issue of Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant.

We understand DP will not agree with this. His disagreement lies within his literal perspective of scriptures. The Catholic Church, as well as many other Christians, disagree with a literal perspective of the scriptures. That is an acceptable disagreement that none of us should allow to take away from the true merit of both perspectives. We can disagree on these things and still be Christian brothers and sisters. We agree on salvation in Jesus Christ. That is the core of Christianity, of which all truly Christian denominations agree.

So how do we get to Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant? In the Old Testament we find the Jews were commanded to build an Ark out of wood and lined with gold (Exodus 25:10-16 and 37:1-5). This is not to be confused with Noah’s Ark from Genesis. The purpose of this Ark was to contain the Holy Tablets on which were written the Ten Commandments given to the Jewish people by God through the prophet Moses. The Levite Priests were the only ones allowed to touch or carry the Ark of the Covenant. There was no place to keep the Ark of the Covenant and the Hebrews (Jews) strayed from God. As such, over the years the Ark was lost. Remember the Temple was not built until King Solomon. King David (who preceded King Solomon) said it was not right that he, the King of Israel, had a palace but there was not house for God. So he wanted to build a temple (2 Samuel 7:2). When the Ark of the Covenant was found during King David’s reign, he ordered soldiers to retrieve it so that it could be preserved. It was eventually placed in the Temple (1 Kings 8:1-9) during King Solomon’s reign. However, the Ark was not to be touched by anyone except the Levite Priest (1 Chronicles 15:2). Uzzah did not understand this and touched the Ark to steady it. “The Lord became angry with Uzzah and struck him; he died there in God’s presence because he had laid his hand on the ark.” (1 Chronicles 13:10). The Ark of the Old Testament was a single point of reverence. It was not worshiped. We find no reference in the Bible that the Jews worshipped the Ark of the Covenant. But King David danced and sang before the Ark in praise to God (1 Chronicles 16) The Ark of the Covenant was simply a vessel designed by God to contain the Tablets of the Ten Commandments. It was held in high reverence for what it contained and the Mosaic law that prohibited anyone from touching such an article of high reverence except the Levite Priest.

Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant in that she was that single vessel chosen by God to carry the Christ in her womb. She is called blessed because that is the commandment in the New Testament (please read the entire chapter of Luke 1) first by the angle Gabriel (Luke 1:26-35), then by the Holy Spirit through Elizabeth, Mary’s cousin and the mother of John the Baptist(Luke 1:39-42), and finally by Mary herself when she says in her magnificate (the song of Mary in Luke 1:46-55) “all generations will call me blessed”. This is in the same spirit of the recurring theme taught by my Old Testament professor, Dr. Cohen. The theme that the Ark of the Covenant was that vessel designed by God to carry His precious words (the Ten Commandments). Mary is that single vessel designed by God to carry His precious Son the Word of God (John 1:14). As such, like David honoring God by dancing and singing before the Ark of the Covenant, we honor God by calling Mary blessed and giving her a place of high devotion as the Ark of the New Covenant.

Posted by Janelle’s husband

galeane29
07-06-2007, 07:56 AM
Amen



i must reply to this ..

i get so tired of people saying that jesus isnt real that hes an imaginary friend or whatever like santa.. well im here to tell everyone that jesus is real,hes very real and he is the reason each and every one of us live and breathe today.god bless the people who do not belive in him.

ahippiechic
07-06-2007, 09:44 AM
I think anyone who is going to read the bible will have their own way of deciphering it. Ten people can read the bible and you will have ten different opinions on what it said, hence all the different religions that refer to the same bible. I don't think it's right for anyone to tell anyone else they are wrong. This is why Starbucks started to do this whole quote thing in the first place. It shouldn't be looked at as offensive, it's just giving people something to think about and debate. Allowing people to think outside of the box. I'm christian, and I'm also open minded. I understand that not everyone believes in the same thing I do. I think these quotes actually help to bring people togather, and maybe if people start talking about these things they will better understand where the other person is coming from and not be so scared or uniniformed.

Same here. I like the quotes and my friends and I have had some interesting conversations sparked by the cups.

freeby4me
07-06-2007, 01:54 PM
Wow Janelle. Thank your DH for me please, that was a very informative post.

Jolie Rouge
07-06-2007, 02:31 PM
Janelle - please tell DH to sign in already ! LOL

janelle
07-08-2007, 10:23 PM
I PMed Katt about it. She says he needs to have a different email than mine since that is how they can keep people from getting double identities on here. Keeps the trolls away. He does not want his own email, only his personal email and he does not give that out to anyone but personal acquaintances and family. So guess he can't post anymore. At least it would have to go through my registration. ?????

janelle
07-08-2007, 10:24 PM
Wow Janelle. Thank your DH for me please, that was a very informative post.

I will, you are so kind.

Jolie Rouge
07-09-2007, 11:50 AM
janelle I PMed Katt about it. She says he needs to have a different email than mine since that is how they can keep people from getting double identities on here. Keeps the trolls away. He does not want his own email, only his personal email and he does not give that out to anyone but personal acquaintances and family. So guess he can't post anymore. At least it would have to go through my registration. ?????

Details details. Set up a free account at hotmail or yahoo and register already !

DtroitPunk
07-09-2007, 02:06 PM
I have said this OVER and OVER but people wont hear it. The bible says what it means MOST of the time. God is not the author of confusion! Satan LOVES it when he can scatter and divide "Christians" we are weak and inneffectve that way.

When I first became a Christian there were many things in the Bible that I didnt understand and some that I didnt particularly care for. But I cant be dishonest with MYSELF. The bible only says different things to different people because PEOPLE want it that way.

If the bible can NOT give us any REAL truth or absolutes why do so many people believe in ANY of it?

Either the bible is Gods word or it is not.

janelle
07-09-2007, 02:27 PM
DP---and the devil LOVES it when Christians argue over God's word---the bible, so why not give some room for those who believe differently than you do? As you say the bible can be intrepreted differently by everybody so why is your version so much better than someone else's?

Your vesion only differs slightly than others. We Christians all follow Jesus and His word. You may not like how we intrepret and we may not like how you intrepret but we are all trying to do what is best.

janelle
07-09-2007, 02:33 PM
Details details. Set up a free account at hotmail or yahoo and register already !

I use my free hotmail account for posting on the internet. He uses mine when he posts on the internet, which isn't often. He is on the puter all day at work and doesn't like to surf it at night. He does like to debate religion and politics though so this is interesting to him.

I will see if it is interesting enough for him to open another account.

Jolie Rouge
07-09-2007, 02:46 PM
If the bible can NOT give us any REAL truth or absolutes why do so many people believe in ANY of it?

Either the bible is Gods word or it is not.

The Bible is God's Perfect Word filtered thru imperfect man.

janelle
07-09-2007, 02:51 PM
The Bible is God's Perfect Word filtered thru imperfect man.

I like that Jolie.

turbob
07-09-2007, 02:54 PM
I'm NOT trying to offend anyone here - but come on, people, its a slogan on a coffee cup, for Pete's sake!! Let the lady who was offended show it by not going to Starbucks anymore. We have REAL problems in this country - kids going hungry, old people not being able to buy medication. I find it hard to get worked up about printing on a coffee cup.

ahippiechic
07-09-2007, 03:19 PM
I just got back from Starbucks...and the quote on my cup was something I didn't agree with! Does it matter?? Nope. I brought it home so my BF and I can discuss it tonight. I personaly think the quotes are a good idea, they get people to think about and talk about things. And I asked the cashier if someone was offended by the quote they got on their cup, if she would get them a diff. cup. She said, "absolutely! And if they don't want to see a quote at all, just tell us when you place your order and we'll put it in a plain cup."

She also reminded me that the quotes are just random quotes and not the opinion of Starbucks or any of their employees.

freeby4me
07-09-2007, 03:25 PM
Now I wish I had a Starbucks in town to get the "quote" of the day LOL (Not that I have money to waste on that LOL) Oh I know, I'll buy a printer and I'll find a place that does like fortune cookie quotes and tape them to my cup. Just as good right!! :dancing:

ahippiechic
07-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Just read some threads here at BBS with your morning coffee, that should give you lots of controversial things to talk about, lol!

freeby4me
07-09-2007, 04:18 PM
Just read some threads here at BBS with your morning coffee, that should give you lots of controversial things to talk about, lol!

Aint that the truth. LOL

YankeeMary
07-09-2007, 08:10 PM
DP---and the devil LOVES it when Christians argue over God's word---the bible, so why not give some room for those who believe differently than you do? As you say the bible can be intrepreted differently by everybody so why is your version so much better than someone else's?

Your vesion only differs slightly than others. We Christians all follow Jesus and His word. You may not like how we intrepret and we may not like how you intrepret but we are all trying to do what is best.

Great job...well put.

Out of rep...sorry.