*DiD yOu KnOw ThIs?* Please read..

[Devine]

Hello Everyone! :( , (SEE MY ANIMAL FREEBIES AT BOTTOM!) :)

I just wanted to share something to you all that has broke my heart inside out. This is really disturbing, and cruel! Many of us know where meat and fur comes from and our daily usuage of items (ex. makeup, cleaning products, etc etc), but many of us are NOT aware of how it takes place and what really goes on.

I started writing a book about this, because it has really disturbed me and I want to further educate others out there that love each and every one of Gods animals!

Now I must say that if you are weak at heart, BE WARNED about what you are about to see. But please hang in there, maybe you will also be motivated to help these poor animals in the best way you can too!

Please hang in there with what you are about to see, this is what we dont know that takes place at animal labs everyday!

Lab Experiments:
( This unlike many other video clips I could post, ends up with a very happy ending and so I choose to show you this one instead of even worse experiments performed on animals)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=britches

Sadly they use our everyday household items and test them on animals to see what the effect is. FRrom makeup to household cleaning supplies. In this video you will see what is called a Draize eye test. (Very Sad)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=biosearch

Fur:
Ok next, this is very disturbing footage of the truth of where fur comes from: ( Warning will have you upset)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=fur_farm


Meat:
Next, I am all for meat, however there has got to be a more humane way of these poor animals slaughter! ( Warning here again!!!!)
http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/Prefs.asp?video=agri_short

There are tons of information I could post that you would not beleive, but there again it would take a books worth of knowledge to explain it all to you. I am showing you these things because it bothers me! I had no idea that animals are tortured, abused, and all done while alive for some fashion statement that could had been avoided with fake fur instead! IF you would like any other information, PLEASE email me. I would be most happy to give you lots of links. :)

Some Freebies supporting animals: :D

http://universal-life.cc/english/animals/Free_Material_layout.htm


(Free Animal Posters & Handouts):
http://www.hsus.org/forms/fur-free_campaign_materials.html


(Free Lawn Sign):
http://www.pcrm.org/resch/charities/order_md_sign.php

(Free Vegetarian Starter):
https://app.etapestry.com/hosted/CompassionOverKilling/OnlineRegistration.html

(Free Book):
http://www.buav.org/gocrueltyfree/littlebook.html

(Free Rescue Alert sticker from ASPCA):
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer

(Free Sticker Pack):
http://www.caringconsumer.com/c-stickers.asp

(Free TeachKind-Distributed Videos and DVDs for Educators):
http://www.teachkind.org/askanimals-resources.asp

(Free Pet I.D. Tags! For US & Canada!)
http://www.humanesociety.com/disparticle.asp?thisrel=petrecoveryteam

[TexasGal]

I don't dispute that there are some inhumane practices out there, but don't believe all Peta's propaganda either. They are well known for exaggerating the truth.

[Chiizii]

I don't dispute that there are some inhumane practices out there, but don't believe all Peta's propaganda either. They are well known for exaggerating the truth.

I completely agree.

"PETA has repeatedly attacked research foundations like the March of Dimes, the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, and the American Cancer Society, because they support animal-based research that might uncover cures for birth defects and life-threatening diseases. PETA president Ingrid Newkirk has said that “even if animal research resulted in a cure for AIDS, we would be against it.”

Read more at:
Seven things you probably didn't know about PETA (http://www.animalscam.com/peta_7things.cfm)
PETA Kills Animals (http://www.anti-peta.com/main.html)
Expose PETA (http://www.exposepeta.com/)

[Donnagg123]

I have to agree with others. I am fully aware that persons are cruel to animals. All anyone has to do is watch animal cops on animal planet and see how cruel humans can be.

That being said, I am not for PETA or any of their tactics. First they go around bombing chicken processing plants. Okay I hate smoking. I wish the tobacco manufacturers and all their propoganda would go away. However, instead of bombing the tobacco manufacturing plants, I am using the most powerful tool we have. EDUCATION! Both me and a fellow nursing student for our management clinicals are going around to schools and educating 5th and 6th graders on the dangers of tobacco from a nursing perspective. Bombing the manufacturing plants does nothing except cause death and destruction. I am not for getting rid of chicken manufacturing plants, but until they get people to change their mind, these manufacturers will keep building more and more.

I also do not like that they discorage children from drinking milk. I ordered a PETA magazine one time for my child, and was appauled at some of the information and stickers they wanted me to give to my child! Thank goodness I looked at it first! It had well disgusting thoughts about what is in milk. However, I seriously doubt those things are in milk. Besides children need milk for milkfat and their developing brains.

[Bubblescc]

I don't dispute that there are some inhumane practices out there, but don't believe all Peta's propaganda either. They are well known for exaggerating the truth.


I agree, Men that worked for Peta were caught throwing dogs in the trash or something like that, I know someone posted about it. Standing up for animal rights is a great thing to do but not with PETA I think thoughs people are crazy, just teasin!lol

[Shancopp]

P-eople
E-ating
T-asty
A-nimals


Peta sucks!

[Bubblescc]

P-eople
E-ating
T-asty
A-nimals


Peta sucks!

LMAO!!!

[LuvBigRip]

P-eople
E-ating
T-asty
A-nimals


Peta sucks!
That was my first thought, then I saw the posters total post numbers and figured why bother.

[tngirl]

P-eople
E-ating
T-asty
A-nimals


Peta sucks!

PETA would probably hang me from the highest tree if they had seen me shot a hog, skin it and slice and dice it....mmmmmm.....she sure tasted good!

I am totally against PETA and Greenpeace. They go around spouting off about this and that but they do the same things that they preach against.

[tngirl]

Are you here trying to recruit for PETA or something? Did you not get the message that we have all seen these pictures before and realize that these cruel things do go on by some? We are not heartless people and the majority of us do care about animals. We just are not impressed by your post.

[tngirl]

Oh, another thing divine, do you realize that there are also children that view this forums? Even if it might just be by looking over their parent's shoulder? Don't you think these pictures are a bit inapropriate?

[Devine]

:( No I do not work for Peta, In fact Im not on there mailing list! :confused: lol This forum is were I can vent just like you to. I am here speaking on behalf of the poor animals that suffer and before you open up the links I had warnings in my first post. On this page there are no gorey pictures. My post only had peta video links because it was easier access to download compared to many of the other video clips i have. I am not here to speak for peta, I am here because I wish to say how much it bothered me, and I am here for those animals! I thought this was a forum where we could vent our feelings. But I guess you dont accept this forum for what it really is. Im sorry that you are so botherd that I am bothered about the suffering of animals. I will stand up for them. Thank you for sharing your feelings tho. Im here to answer how you feel to. :o

Devine
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/marinewife.gif
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/marineluv.gif

[msginna]

I notified the ops because these are just to horrible to be posted on a site like this. Venting is one thing, showing abused animals is another. I now thank for the images that I will now see in my head, along with others for the rest of my life, and for what???? THANK YOU, for adding to my own private heck.

[Bubblescc]

Devine its ok to vent what were saying is you really shouldnt post those pics and remember just because you see a pic doesnt mean its legit. Unfortunately animals are abused all the time. I tend to try and focus and help more for children being abused. Its a great cause just make sure you know where all your info is coming from....I love dogs, cats, ferrats etc....so dont take anything the wrong way ok....

[freebielover]

Its cool to inform people but leave the pics in links please. I don't want to be eating and see that. And I am a vegetarian and all for the rights of animals but I certaintly won't listen to anything PETA has to say and won't view those pictures unless I choose too.

[TxGreek]

Devine,
Are you a vegetarian?



I have to agree with freebielover. I'm a vegetarian and have no desire to see the two pictures you posted.
I read your first post last night and didn't click on a single link because I didn't want to see them.
Give people the choice and link to the pics, please.

[Donnagg123]

Speaking for myself and maybe others, I think people are upset because it was not like you were trying to vent but more to get people to support PETA and their cause. I know that maybe not have been your intention, but that is the way it came across, atleast to me. About the pictures, to be honest, I could show you some really gross pictures of NORMAL parts of the human body (organs,etc). However, I am sure people would not want to see those as well. I agree with the other person that it should be a persons right to choose to look at the pictures. A good explanation and how you feel about something usually will suffice, rather than trying to use "in your face" tactics. JMO

[Devine]

In my first post ever I said ( its listed like this Meat:) I am all for meat, but there has got to be a better way to do it. In fact I ate chicken strips for supper. lol I have no problem with any food, but I think there should be laws to make this more humane. Its sad an animal has to suffer so bad because we drink milk from them and eat meat.

[Devine]

Omgosh no! Like I said I have never even joined there mailing list! Those videos however I am interested in. Not because its Peta but beause of those poor animals. I couuld care less about peta. You people must listen to me! I am NOT here for peta I dont care about what they are and do. I DO care about what I do to help people understand that there has got to be a better way. I will fight that untill the day I die and in heaven I will join Jesus and all the other lil animals and live peacefully. Trust me,lol, you people must think Im so able to handle gore, im not! lol I cried for 2 days, lost sleep all because I am that big hearted for animals. They cant talk! I dont care what people may think, Im not ashamed to stand up. Those pictures are so G rated. I challange you to go see the real thing. Then tell me if you feel the same. Im gonna give you all the main movie/pic page I have researched this at. LIKE I said, peta has these video clips, but I could care less about them. If they have done everything thats rumored about then, well they will face God one day! Its not my right to judge them because I dont know them. But God does. I will let him be the judge.


www.animalrightsmedia.com

[tngirl]

I have worked on horse farms and the race track and hog farms. I was raised in farm country here in Tennessee. I presently work with animals and my house is a zoo. I have seen the pictures and videos before and I have seen animal abuse by your normal everyday citizens. What I do not need is someone shoving these pictures down my throat. I chose NOT to view the links that you provided because I simply did not want to see the same pictures over again. And did I mention that I have worked in a chicken processing plant before?

You make it sound as if we are all go to hades because we chose to not click on your links or we do not stand on the rooftops shouting. As for "you dont accept this forum for what it really is", oh yes, I do.

[Devine]

Oh WOw! :eek:

Tngirl, :(

Why do you have so much hatred in your voice! Im not mad at you, and I dont care that you worked on a farm with horses etc because I did to! ANd my house is a zoo as well!

You do not have to click on any links and in fact you dont even have to keep comming in here if it really bothers you that much! But you do, and you keep posting the most rudest comments. I am not pointing fingers at you, and this post was not meant for you. It was meant for others that did not know.

I cant beleive the hate comming from you. The only way you or anyone else would go to hell, would be if you never accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your life! Thats the only way! I never pointed my fingers at you hun, and I please ask that you calm down! This post was for the people that didnt know. And beleive it or not many are not aware of how things are done! I am happy that you know. I care for people and animals in this world.

[LuvBigRip]

Like I said. Look at the post total and there you go.

My thoughts. My life, and the life of many others human was saved by the testing of medications on animals. I suppose, and PETA would agree that we should use humans test on.

Bambi's Mom was someones dinner.

Sign up for a free "comic book" for your kids from PETA, see what they send. A charming little tale of how Mommy and Daddy murdered your favorite pet. Oh, and there are neato illustrations too.

Since we are throwing hades and JC into the mix: God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the sky, and over the livestock, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

[jdfan]

Oh WOw! :eek:

Tngirl, :(

Why do you have so much hatred in your voice! Im not mad at you, and I dont care that you worked on a farm with horses etc because I did to! ANd my house is a zoo as well!

You do not have to click on any links and in fact you dont even have to keep comming in here if it really bothers you that much! But you do, and you keep posting the most rudest comments. I am not pointing fingers at you, and this post was not meant for you. It was meant for others that did not know.

I cant beleive the hate comming from you. The only way you or anyone else would go to hell, would be if you never accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your life! Thats the only way! I never pointed my fingers at you hun, and I please ask that you calm down! This post was for the people that didnt know. And beleive it or not many are not aware of how things are done! I am happy that you know. I care for people and animals in this world.


You're too funny! Tngirl is my sis, lol. She isn't spewing hate, just telling you the truth. Most of the replies have been, np with the links you provided, that gives everyone a choice to be enlightened. The real issue is that you posted the pictures that do offend others. Your pictures promote PETA propaganda which some of us don't care to view. You have taken choice away. You're too funny!

[loveswolfs]

Oh WOw! :eek:

Tngirl, :(

Why do you have so much hatred in your voice! Im not mad at you, and I dont care that you worked on a farm with horses etc because I did to! ANd my house is a zoo as well!

You do not have to click on any links and in fact you dont even have to keep comming in here if it really bothers you that much! But you do, and you keep posting the most rudest comments. I am not pointing fingers at you, and this post was not meant for you. It was meant for others that did not know.

I cant beleive the hate comming from you. The only way you or anyone else would go to hell, would be if you never accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your life! [/B] Thats the only way! I never pointed my fingers at you hun, and I please ask that you calm down! This post was for the people that didnt know. And beleive it or not many are not aware of how things are done! I am happy that you know. I care for people and animals in this world.

i wasnt going to say any thing about your first post but i have seen the ppl here talk about this before and how bad animal's are treated , so yes a lot of ppl here do know what is happening to these animal's ...what got me to post is you saying is im going to go to hell because i wont accept the lord christ in my life :mad: ...yes i could be the any one else reading this. did you really come here to preach at us with Easter 4 day's away????

[TxGreek]

In my first post ever I said ( its listed like this Meat:) I am all for meat, but there has got to be a better way to do it. In fact I ate chicken strips for supper. lol I have no problem with any food, but I think there should be laws to make this more humane. Its sad an animal has to suffer so bad because we drink milk from them and eat meat.

I must be really demented because I find it funny when people who eat meat cry out about animal cruelty. :rolleyes:

For those who DO eat meat, don't get me wrong! I'm NOT saying meat eaters like to see dogs/cats, etc mistreated/beat/killed.

But to come on BBS and make this whole long post about animal cruelty and then brag about eating chicken fingers for dinner....... :confused: :rolleyes:

Do you know how that chicken was killed? If not, why eat it and support the cause you're supposedly fighting? ;)

[TexasGal]

Like I said. Look at the post total and there you go.

I must be tired because I can't figure out what this has to do with it? :o

[Njean31]

I must be really demented because I find it funny when people who eat meat cry out about animal cruelty. :rolleyes:

For those who DO eat meat, don't get me wrong! I'm NOT saying meat eaters like to see dogs/cats, etc mistreated/beat/killed.

But to come on BBS and make this whole long post about animal cruelty and then brag about eating chicken fingers for dinner....... :confused: :rolleyes:

Do you know how that chicken was killed? If not, why eat it and support the cause you're supposedly fighting? ;)

she is saying there must be a better way to do it, not to do it all. i agree with that. i eat meat but don't want the animals torturted to death.

[Bliss]

The only way you or anyone else would go to hell, would be if you never accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into your life! Thats the only way!

I suppose there's a seat in hell waiting for me. :eek: :p

[tngirl]

I suppose there's a seat in hell waiting for me. :eek: :p

LMAO....are you gonna save us all a seat? I'll bring the ice water :D

And Divne...where do you come up with the idea of me spewing hatred? :confused: I am totally confused on that one. Because I disagree with what you have posted and say so I am spewing hatred? OK, if you say so. And HUN, I disagree with most things people here say....and there is not a single person that I HATE. And the reason that I come back in this post is to see if the pictures have been removed. I would think if you realized that people were offended or upset with the pictures then you would voluntarily remove them.

[hotwheelstx]

Personally I can't look at the pictures...but to each his/her own. I've been on both sides of the tracks.....I was raised a vegan. Decided in adulthood it wasn't the life for me. My parents in NO WAY supported PETA....just wanted to be vegans.

Until the age of 22 I'd never had chicken, beef, milk, cheese. I've known people that were members of PETA....let me tell you they're CRACKED, to say the least.

I can't stand PETA's tactics....I think what they do is cruel. Not to mention breaking and entering where they have no right to be.

If you're a member of PETA I wish you well. I want nothing to do w/them. I think they go to extremes to prove their point. They don't know where to draw the line or stop w/tactics to get attention.

I think there's throne waiting for me in hell!!!!

I tend to agree:

P-eople
E-ating
T-asty
A-nimals


Peta sucks!

[lassss]

I deleted the pics as they should have been clickable links

[msginna]

Thank you lass! Those supposed "g" rated pics should never be put up on a site like this.

[nightrider127]

Thanks, Lass for taking care of the pics. They were totally inappropiate. No one, especially the children who sometimes visit this site should be forced to look at photos like that.

[Devine]

Sorry I have not had a chance to post today I have been so busy. Let me try to answer you all.

As far as meat I eat meat! Yes I seen the way the chickens are treated and I have researched throughly.
You guys please listen to this. I have explained it so many times. I will say it once more. I am saying that I WISHED or there has GOT TO BE a more humane way to kill these animals for our meat.
China, use dogs and cats ( and I dare you to go visit the page and see the cats and dogs boiled alive then tossed onto a table or floor to have a hot torch burn the fur off them. Then while there still alive ( God Bless there hearts) they are cut open and gutted alive! Many adorable puppies and kittens still with there mothers! That puppy crate you seen was NEXT in line! Yea they come packed in crates! You people seen a G rated picture and cry about it! Well you havent seen nothing! Think about those innocent animals that cant say NO! There crying and FEEL everything thats happening to them! You say you love animals then by God DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Dont cry about it. To kill a dog, the butcher ties a metal wire around its necks, then stabs the dog in the groin area. The butcher then skins the dog, sometimes while the dog still lives.
Butchers hang cats to kill them. Sometimes, they hang the cats, then pour water into their open mouths until the cats drown.
I cried 2 days then decided I had to help. And then you come and post on here and tell me you dont feel compassion the same way I do! I DARE You! Most of you dont have the guts to see it so you have no right to post! Go see it then post. Please, I challange you to what I am saying.


Second, I am not here just for meat & dairy. Im more sad about the way animals are skined alive and tossed onto a pile of other dead skined animals most still alive up to 10 minutes after there furs are ripped completely from the rear to there head! Yes, it is peeled off just like that! They are NOT given any thing to numb there pain. They are skined alive, all for what? Fashion? There is fake fur that is so pretty. Watch in China how they take those cats, dogs, rabbits, use them for fur to. Watch how they toss the racoon or w/e animal on the ground, club it in the head, step on there necks, and grab them by there tails and smash there heads in the ground! The other methods recommended by the fur trade are gassing, neck-breaking, and anal electrocution. AND TELL ME YOU DONT FEEL HEART BROKEN! ALL FOR FASHION THAT CAN BE AVOIDED WITH FAKE FUR THAT IS JUST AS BEAUTIFUL. Since you are so terrified of reality pictures, let me post you a cute one. It requires as many as 60 animals to make a fur coat: 60 minks, 50 muskrats, 45 opossums or 42 foxes

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/popupe01.jpg


Animals in labs,
This is sad! Vivisection, totally against it. Cutting open an animal while alive and not at least sleeping it is torture. Making a innocent rabbit have cosmetics pored or smeared into there eyes, when its known human eyes and rabbits eyes are nothing alike! Yet its performed still and these animals get severe eye infections and other life threating things. In the Lethal Dose:50 test (LD:50), mice, hamsters and other animals are force fed household cleansers (or personal care items). A feeding syringe is brusquely forced down the animals’ throats, injecting a chemical ingredient of the cleanser, or the cleanser itself, into their stomachs. These animals endure ulcerations, vomiting, bleeding, convulsions, and death. This forced feeding increases in amount until half of them die. Notes are made as to the quantity needed to kill 50% of the animals, then the survivors are killed. No harmful effects are noted or measured, only the animals’ lethal dose which is not much information. Scientists mistakenly perceive these results as determinant of how much of the product a human can safely ingest. EVERY second, of EVERY day, of EVERY single year, an animal dies in research labs in the United States. That means, that while you have been reading this, about 200 laboratory animals have died. At least now there won't be any more pain, depression and suffering for them. To measure severe burns on live tissue, a pet is burned alive with a flame-thrower until the charred flesh can be removed in large pieces from while the animal is still alive.
An experiment to study head trauma requires a pet’s head to be strapped down and receive high impact blows to the head resulting in severe brain damage.
To demonstrate there is no difference in eye protein levels of the site deprived, pet’s eyelids are sewn shut then later compared to normal protein levels.
To study recovery from injury, a pet is strapped down, and the pet’s knees are cut to leave large flaps.
Animal testing costs the American public over $136 billion annually. Animal testing is costing your family more then $300 dollars a year. Alternatives cost a significantly less amount and produce far better results.
Humans and animals are different in many ways. Many drugs approved for human use based on animal studies have had to be taken off the market at a later date because of side effects not revealed in animal studies. More than 100,000 people have been hospitalized and later died from toxic reactions to medications in 1994 that were not predicted by animal tests.
Here are some other examples of animal testing in failure:
Many patients who were administered the general anesthetic Methoxyflurane lost function of their kidneys because animal experiments failed to reveal possible kidney toxicity.
The arthritis medication Flosint proved fatal to humans after passing tests on rats, monkeys, and dogs.
Opren, a cough medication tested successfully on monkeys and other animals, killed 61 people and caused severe reactions in thousands of others.
Antidepressant Zelmid tested on rats and dogs with no problems, caused severe neurological problems in humans. After being tested on numerous animals, Practolol caused blindness in 78 people and killed 23 others.
There are numerous other examples.
Drugs that pass animal tests end up harming or killing humans about 61% of the time. Promising treatments are withheld from humans when they don't pass animal tests. Scientists point to huge chances of possible vaccines for cancer, heart disease, and HIV being withheld from the public because of faulty animal tests.


What is The Point I am Getting At?

The bottom line is, animal testing should be stopped. It wouldn't be so bad if it was just one animal to save a million people. But sadly, that's not the case. Millions of animals get tested upon to save hardly any people. It's up to the caring people in this world to make a stand and do something about it. To free the innocent lab animals from excruciation, the only 'life' they know...



If you would like further things I have researched please ask! I LOVE to tell you.
While you cant stand a G-rated picture let your eyes read and tell you the truth!


Want more I have TONS more! :)

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/marineluv.gif

[Bubblescc]

Well I personally think you desribing such things in detail on a forum that children do get on is worse then the pics you posted.

And I am sorry but if you EAT animals for heavens sakes and you want a more humane way to kill them????Dead is dead no they shouldnt have to suffer but the end result is the same. Does this only sound funny too me???

You lead by example or at least that is what I think stop eating meat then go and complain about it.....

CHILDREN COME TO THIS SITE DO YOU LET YOUR CHILDREN SEE SUCH THINGS. THOSE PICS WERENT G-RATED AND NEITHER ARE YOU DESCRIPTIONS! Lots of us look at this site with are kids in the room you could at least put a warning on your post. KIDS COME FIRST!

[Devine]

she is saying there must be a better way to do it, not to do it all. i agree with that. i eat meat but don't want the animals torturted to death.



Exactly!!!!

[Devine]

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.


Yes, and this took place after what? Sin, because they were now ashamed of there bodies. When sin did not exists, they were naked. "hence sin"

[Devine]

For those who DO eat meat, don't get me wrong! I'm NOT saying meat eaters like to see dogs/cats, etc mistreated/beat/killed.




This is exactly what I am saying. I dont want to see animals tortured at all so I can eat chicken strips peacefully. And yes, I do know how chickens are treated. I researched it throughly! Thats why I say: THERE HAS GOT TO BE A BETTER WAY!

[Donnagg123]

Okay Devine let me see if I can explain this....again. I know again I may or may not be speaking for everyone, but....
You keep saying "but you just don't get it"... blah blah blah. Guess what. We get it. I hear you when you say that animals are being mistreated. That is a fact that is not lost on anyone here. We understand that people, animals, children, etc. are being abused/mistreated. You act like we have never seen these pictures before and we have our heads in the sand to the cruelty of animals. Guess what? We have seen these EXACT pictures and more from other posters like yourself and on our own. Seeing gross pictures are not going to make anyone care any less or any more, it is only going to turn them off from your cause. You cannot force someone to act on something. That is great you are excited and proactive about doing something about these animals. Not everyone is going to be like that and you cannot make them.

Another thing is, while it is sad they kill puppies in China, they are meat. Second, outside of going there, how can I stop someone in China from eating dog or cat? Again it is meat to them. Maybe they look at chickens and cows in America and think the same thing. It is a cultural thing and not a cruelty thing. I agree with the other person, dead is dead. You are right, that it is not good to torture animals before they kill them...however....the only way it will stop is if everyone on the planet stops eating any form of meat. Guess what that is not going to happen. I just like everyone else here I am sure do our own part to help animals but in a different way. I have my animals spayed/neutered. I do not buy from puppy mills. I am not cruel to any animals I own, and I care for them very well.

Again, we get it that animals are being mistreated. People here ARE compassionate, even about animals, but we do not want gross pictures shoved in our face. I know you said you have no affiliation with PETA, but those are the same things they try and it does not work. It is different to come here and vent, and to come here with an agenda. The best way to change it is to change the laws, make them more strict so they can prosecute people here is the US. We cannot prosecute people in China or other countries. That is a sad fact, but I nor anyone here can change that. JMO

[Devine]

Donnagg

China, which, over the past decade, has overtaken Canada, Scandinavia, and the U.S. to become the world’s largest fur exporter. The fashion business, like other trades, is increasingly outsourcing to China, where animals are not protected by a single law. The main reason that fur has resurfaced in fashion is that it is cheaper than ever because of imports from China, where 3 million foxes, raccoons, and rabbits are killed in ways that would shock unsuspecting consumers in the Western countries where the fur is sold

[loveswolfs]

all i have to say is thank god my brother's kids where not sitting next to me when i came to your long venting on what they do to the animal's or that my grandson was not on my lap which he does while i am at the pc. i under stand what you are saying. my brother's dog was stolen right out of his yard and when we called the cop's they said they didnt think we would see her again becuz it was known ppl where stealing the dog's to eat them!! now did we tell the kid's this? no..and i really dont want them to read about it when i came here to have fun. i saw your link's i dont care to read them..i watch animal planet and that's enough for my little heart and eye's to see i dont need you explaining it word by word to me...you got your point across on this last vent..as i think this is what you were waiting for cuz no one would click your link's so you had to explain it us...get a life...

[Devine]

Okay Devine let me see if I can explain this....again. I know again I may or may not be speaking for everyone, but....
You keep saying "but you just don't get it"... blah blah blah. Guess what. We get it. I hear you when you say that animals are being mistreated. That is a fact that is not lost on anyone here. We understand that people, animals, children, etc. are being abused/mistreated. You act like we have never seen these pictures before and we have our heads in the sand to the cruelty of animals. Guess what? We have seen these EXACT pictures and more from other posters like yourself and on our own. Seeing gross pictures are not going to make anyone care any less or any more, it is only going to turn them off from your cause. You cannot force someone to act on something. That is great you are excited and proactive about doing something about these animals. Not everyone is going to be like that and you cannot make them.

Another thing is, while it is sad they kill puppies in China, they are meat. Second, outside of going there, how can I stop someone in China from eating dog or cat? Again it is meat to them. Maybe they look at chickens and cows in America and think the same thing. It is a cultural thing and not a cruelty thing. I agree with the other person, dead is dead. You are right, that it is not good to torture animals before they kill them...however....the only way it will stop is if everyone on the planet stops eating any form of meat. Guess what that is not going to happen. I just like everyone else here I am sure do our own part to help animals but in a different way. I have my animals spayed/neutered. I do not buy from puppy mills. I am not cruel to any animals I own, and I care for them very well.

Again, we get it that animals are being mistreated. People here ARE compassionate, even about animals, but we do not want gross pictures shoved in our face. I know you said you have no affiliation with PETA, but those are the same things they try and it does not work. It is different to come here and vent, and to come here with an agenda. The best way to change it is to change the laws, make them more strict so they can prosecute people here is the US. We cannot prosecute people in China or other countries. That is a sad fact,
but I nor anyone here can change that. JMO
Yes you can help:
SHARE WHAT YOU LEARN WITH OTHERS. By knowing the facts about the cruelty , you will be able to speak intelligently about this sensitive issue. Speak out whenever you can--to your newspaper’s editor, your neighbors, co-workers, family, friends, and whenever the topic arises. Voice your opinion and back it up with the facts.

[Devine]

i think this is what you were waiting for cuz no one would click your link's so you had to explain it us...get a life...

I have a life. A very busy life. We are a military family. Infact, my husband is about to be shipped to Iraq for the 3rd time. We are preparing for that again.

But I tell you what, I dont know if you are in the US, but if you are, my life is dedicated to fighting for your and my freedom. That is a life, a very hard life to live. So dont tell me to get a life. God has blessed our family. And Im happy to have this life even if you tell me to get a life. :) So hug that precious baby of yours tight. I wish mine could hug ours when he is away fighting for you and everyone else. But Im sorry I guess I have no life.... :(



I even voted for your grandson.. lol

[loveswolfs]

I have a life. A very busy life. We are a military family. Infact, my husband is about to be shipped to Iraq for the 3rd time. We are preparing for that again.

But I tell you what, I dont know if you are in the US, but if you are, my life is dedicated to fighting for your and my freedom. That is a life, a very hard life to live. So dont tell me to get a life. God has blessed our family. And Im happy to have this life even if you tell me to get a life. :)



I even voted for your grandson.. lol

Gee why not spend what little time you have left with your hubby and stop pushing the killing of animal's at us? oh and my family is ex military both my farther and my ex husband were in the army. and yes i am in the USA and every day i see the men & women who fight for me so i can live in a free country when i go visit my father who is at our V.A.Hospital. I see the one's that have been in the war's and i sit and talk to them every day..and i talk to the one's who dont have much time to live.

[Donnagg123]

Yes you can help:
SHARE WHAT YOU LEARN WITH OTHERS. By knowing the facts about the cruelty , you will be able to speak intelligently about this sensitive issue. Speak out whenever you can--to your newspaper’s editor, your neighbors, co-workers, family, friends, and whenever the topic arises. Voice your opinion and back it up with the facts.
Again, you only focused on a few words I said instead of getting the gist of the statement. I hear you when you say things can be done. WHAT I SAID WAS I cannot prosecute people in other countries. Getting in the face of everyone I know will not change it either. People would start tuning me out, just as people are tuning out you here...which is what I am now going to do.

[Njean31]

i simply do not understand EVERYONE bashing the op. i do not like to see the pictures either and i usually try to avoid looking at them and seeing the reality of how that cow winds up on my plate or how that chicken is killed in order for me to enjoy chick-fil-a or kfc. it is reality though and the more people who acknowledge it and cry out for change, the better imo. yes, she put some awful pictures up...this is reality and it really sucks. my mom grew up on a farm and she has MANY tales of raising up livestock and having to watch it killed and eat it. it is pitiful for these animals. why can't they do this more humanely? and to me it sounds like the op has a life and a heart. dang, she is venting for those who can't and ya'll are tearing her apart because of you own non ability to accept how your dinner actually winds up on your plate. :(

i went back and looked at when she joined bbs and saw that it was this very month. i'm thinking that maybe ya'll think she joined to just spew peta info?? either way, i still understand her point and stand by my posts.

[LuvBigRip]

Yes, and this took place after what? Sin, because they were now ashamed of there bodies. When sin did not exists, they were naked. "hence sin"
But since there is sin, and since God did it to cover them, I think he condones it. Naked is not a bad thing. Naked with fur is better.

[TxGreek]

And I am sorry but if you EAT animals for heavens sakes and you want a more humane way to kill them????Dead is dead no they shouldnt have to suffer but the end result is the same. Does this only sound funny too me???


Nope.... I find it funny, too.

Divine and Njean, I really don't understand how you can EAT an animal and whine about how it was killed. By eating it, you're supporting how it was killed!
Do you really think if every single person boycotted meat because of how it was killed that the farmers would still kill it this way? NO; they would change how they do things because they'd be forced to.
IMO, there will never be enough people boycotting to make a difference, but I think it's really silly to cry over (not literally) how an animal is killed while you munch away at its meat! :eek:

[Njean31]

Nope.... I find it funny, too.

Divine and Njean, I really don't understand how you can EAT an animal and whine about how it was killed. By eating it, you're suppoting how it was killed!
Do you really think if every single person boycotted meat because of how it was killed that the farmers would still kill it this way? NO; they would change how they do things because they'd be forced to.
IMO, there will never be enough people boycotting to make a difference, but I think it's really silly to cry over (not literally) how an animal is killed while you munch away at its meat! :eek:


call me a weirdo then (although i'm far from one). yes, i eat meat and always have. i just put the actual details of how it winds up on my plate out of my mind (ALL ALL OF YOU DO, and if you don't then i question your ability to empathize with others) ....humans and animals alike . i'm not fixing to boycott anything. i unfortunately have the mindset of that if i don't know it or see it then i can eat it. it is IN REALITY a bad situation though and i wish they could do it more humanely.

btw, i'm not eating no meat while i'm whining. i'm drinking vodka and o.j. i hope no animals were torturted to death for me to enjoy this drink. ;)

[Njean31]

?Dead is dead no they shouldnt have to suffer but the end result is the same. Does this only sound funny too me???


let me try to enlighten you on this absurd statement. do you have any children? if one of them were to die, would you rather them to go to sleep peacefully and quickly or would you rather a slower and painful death? it does matter the manner and method of death. animals have nervous systems just like we do :mad:

[Bubblescc]

let me try to enlighten you on this absurd statement. do you have any children? if one of them were to die, would you rather them to go to sleep peacefully and quickly or would you rather a slower and painful death? it does matter the manner and method of death. animals have nervous systems just like we do :mad:


This is too funny You campare a CHILD to an Animal!!!! I dont eat or hurt kids in anyway so therefore your statement is the one thats absurd....and if your child was dying would you not try everything to save them???? Therefore complaining about the treatment of animals and then sitting down and dining on one is absurd!

too funny

[TxGreek]

let me try to enlighten you on this absurd statement. do you have any children? if one of them were to die, would you rather them to go to sleep peacefully and quickly or would you rather a slower and painful death? it does matter the manner and method of death. animals have nervous systems just like we do :mad:


To ask someone about the death of their children is "absurd!" :mad:

The children wouldn't be killed for their mother's benefit. The animals are being killed so YOU can eat them!

Your analogy is ridiculous.

[Bubblescc]

To ask someone about the death of their children is "absurd!" :mad:

The children wouldn't be killed for their mother's benefit. The animals are being killed so YOU can eat them!

Your analogy is ridiculous.


Exactly !!! Thank You

[Njean31]

i KNOW that all of this negativity toward the op is in fact a reflection of your own inablility to accept how your chicken fried steak actually winds up on your plate tonight. accept it, this is how it's done. it isn't pretty and i don't like it as much as the next person, but please aim your missles in the right direction.

[Bubblescc]

i KNOW that all of this negativity toward the op is in fact a reflection of your own inablility to accept how your chicken fried steak actually winds up on your plate tonight. accept it, this is how it's done. it isn't pretty and i don't like it as much as the next person, but please aim your missles in the right direction.

LOL that has nothing to do with anything, and BTW i dont like chicken fried steak ;)

It was about the content of the post not being suitable for this board, you can put warnings in your post......

[Njean31]

To ask someone about the death of their children is "absurd!" :mad:

The children wouldn't be killed for their mother's benefit. The animals are being killed so YOU can eat them!

Your analogy is ridiculous.


i'm sorry you think it's ridiculous. and give me a friggen break. i wasn't talking about eating any children. the point i'm trying to make is that they have nervous systems just like we do. i'm sorry i made such a deep analogy for ya'll to understand, i forget that everyone on here may not be on the same age/maturity/and educational level some of has reached.

[Njean31]

It was about the content of the post not being suitable for this board, you can put warnings in your post......

that may very well be true.........i can't dispute something i don't know nothing about. obviously the pic's weren't allowed, they were deleted.

[Devine]

Sorry Njean. :(

I swear its like a piranha pack waiting to attack the next helpless victim that lands into the water. lol :eek: Geez They want to see things there way but not how Im really tring to say.
I hope they continue to victimize me again and give you a break and any other person that has a heart to speak up! ;) Geez I will take the beating.. Here let me hand them the boxing gloves!
(x.X).............. Q(-Q)...ouch! :p :p :p




Yours Truely,
Devine :rolleyes:

[Devine]

Oh and by the way, my animals are my children! ;)

[Bubblescc]

Sorry Njean. :(

I swear its like a piranha pack waiting to attack the next helpless victim that lands into the water. lol :eek: Geez They want to see things there way but not how Im really tring to say.
I hope they continue to victimize me again and give you a break and any other person that has a heart to speak up! ;) Geez I will take the beating.. Here let me hand them the boxing gloves!
(x.X).............. Q(-Q)...ouch! :p :p :p




Yours Truely,
Devine :rolleyes:

Who is trying to victimize you? WOW the drama...Shouldnt you be happy there are replies cause your post keeps staying at the top? ;) this isnt a soap opera...

and this is a subject that has been posted alot if you want to know what a we think about this do a search and see the many posts on this subject.
BTW I thought the animals were the victims ;)

[Devine]

:eek: lol no comment

[tngirl]

Don't forget the poor lobsters!!

[Njean31]

Who is trying to victimize you? WOW the drama...Shouldnt you be happy there are replies cause your post keeps staying at the top? ;) this isnt a soap opera...

and this is a subject that has been posted alot if you want to know what a we think about this do a search and see the many posts on this subject.
BTW I thought the animals were the victims ;)

you are right about beating this poor horse to death (pardon the irony). it has been spoke of before on here (AND EVERYWHERE ELSE...it's an important issue) and EVERYONE is against peta but forget peta.........remember how it feels to prick your finger of break a bone (if you have been unfortunate as i have). pain is not fun, especially when it leads to death. have any of you experienced severe pain where you needed morphine and the like...............??????????these animals feel the exact same pain. i don't know if thier mind interperts it like ours does, but what if does?

and WE? you do not speak for for the whole on the group here. i am also a member for possibly longer than you (i don't feel like researching it) but at any rate, i'm against animal cruetly.

[gmyers]

I didn't look at the pictures that were posted because things like that haunt me but I don't see anything wrong with the poster drawing attention to what's happening to the animals. I commend her for trying to raise awareness to what's going on.

[tngirl]

I hate to see an animal tortured or hurt or in pain....let's get that straight....but, the majority of them were put on this planet for a source of food. If we were not meant to be carnivorous (sp?) then we wouldn't have teeth to do so. I also know how animals are processed in order to make it to my plate.

It seems like the only outcry here is for the furry little critters...but, what about lobsters? What about the crawdads? I am not bashing, beating up or whatever on the OP, but, as always, don't post something on these public forums if you do not want to hear what everyone else has to say. I posted my opinion and was told that I was hateful. Well, I guess I have no soul because I view animals as such....ANIMALS. It P's me off that people scream louder over the abuse of animals than they do for abused CHILDREN.

If the OP wants to stand and scream from the rooftops over this issue that is her choice. But I have to agree with the others when I say that if you are a meat eater then you are a hypocrite.

[Njean31]

the manner of death does matter.........it does matter the manner and method of death. have any of you actually witnessesed a death???? it isn't pretty i will be the first to tell you as an eyewitness to many deaths. can't we find a way a better way to to kill an animal for it's meat? don't close your eyes so tightly......."I" do know this is a hard subject, but it is reality. people are mean as hell...............these dumb arse country boy's go "hunting" to KILL for what?????? they are trying to kill the biggest deer. do they need the meat? HELL NO, i know this to be a fact. take your dumb country bumpkin a** to food lion, it's all about "i can get the biggest one and drink the most beer".

[TxGreek]

i KNOW that all of this negativity toward the op is in fact a reflection of your own inablility to accept how your chicken fried steak actually winds up on your plate tonight. accept it, this is how it's done. it isn't pretty and i don't like it as much as the next person, but please aim your missles in the right direction.

Your posts lack logic.

I don't eat meat so I won't have guilt about where my dinner came from. (But I do wonder if my carrots cry when being sliced ;) )

How much sense does it make to EAT an animal and then wonder if it hurts? :rolleyes:

[TxGreek]

i'm sorry you think it's ridiculous. and give me a friggen break. i wasn't talking about eating any children. the point i'm trying to make is that they have nervous systems just like we do. i'm sorry i made such a deep analogy for ya'll to understand, i forget that everyone on here may not be on the same age/maturity/and educational level some of has reached.

Deep? You're right, we're definitely not all on the same level if that analogy qualified as "deep" for you.

[Bubblescc]

you are right about beating this poor horse to death (pardon the irony). it has been spoke of before on here (AND EVERYWHERE ELSE...it's an important issue) and EVERYONE is against peta but forget peta.........remember how it feels to prick your finger of break a bone (if you have been unfortunate as i have). pain is not fun, especially when it leads to death. have any of you experienced severe pain where you needed morphine and the like...............??????????these animals feel the exact same pain. i don't know if thier mind interperts it like ours does, but what if does?

and WE? you do not speak for for the whole on the group here. i am also a member for possibly longer than you (i don't feel like researching it) but at any rate, i'm against animal cruetly.


We means whomever gave thier opinion in prior posts. I am not sure how being a member a few months longer then anyone has anything to do with anything?

[TxGreek]

They want to see things there way but not how Im really tring to say.


Are you seeing things any other way than your own? People don't agree. Such is life. You posted on a public message board and should've expected different opinions.

You're taking this too personally. For me, this is a conversation about how animals are treated; not about "aiming missiles" and the war in Iraq.

[Bubblescc]

i'm sorry you think it's ridiculous. and give me a friggen break. i wasn't talking about eating any children. the point i'm trying to make is that they have nervous systems just like we do. i'm sorry i made such a deep analogy for ya'll to understand, i forget that everyone on here may not be on the same age/maturity/and educational level some of has reached.

You attack people like this? Pretending you are more intelligent instead of admitting how stupid this analogy was that you made between children and animals. You cant compare children to animals. A better way to have stated your argument would have been to simply say if your animal was dying a painful disease you wouldnt let it suffer would you you would take it to a vet and have it put to sleep .

[Bliss]

LMAO....are you gonna save us all a seat? I'll bring the ice water :D


Hahaha! Of course! ;)

[Devine]

You're taking this too personally. For me, this is a conversation about how animals are treated; not about "aiming missiles" and the war in Iraq.




Im turning the other cheek on this one. As hard as it is, Im gonna show love. Cause if I am to set an example of Gods love, it starts here! :)

[Njean31]

Pretending you are more intelligent instead of admitting

i'm not pretending to be intelligent...

[Njean31]

You cant compare children to animals. A better way to have stated your argument would have been to simply say if your animal was dying a painful disease you wouldnt let it suffer would you you would take it to a vet and have it put to sleep .

i don't need YOU to tell me a better way to argue my point. now, if you are a college graduate with major training in any form of physiology (must be more than me though which i would highly doubt)... than by all means...........tell me the difference between animal and human nervous systems and the mind/brain correlation????

[Njean31]

i'm done with this subject for the weekend. easter is here and i'm going out of town. ya'll have it........enjoy your ham :D

[msginna]

I am just glad the gory pictures of abused animals is off. I love animals as I have 3 cats and grew up with MANY animals, I also eat animals, AND I care about how they are put to death and if they are in pain. I feel I am very compassionate twords them.

I was channel surfing and I saw some very abused animals and a cat put to death. I will never ever get those images out of my head. You don't have to be a vegan, to have compassion. I do however wish the worst on people who abuse animals, or get a sick kick out of publishing pictures (such as PETA) of abused animals (no I am not talking about the op), I have gotten "comics" from them and I had to throw them in the trash. I believe PETA started out on good intent, and then went crazy. This is all my opinion of course.

[stresseater]

Hahahahaha Thanks guys.... I haven't laughed at a thread so hard since the first "Manda" thread I stumbled into.
these dumb arse country boy's go "hunting" to KILL for what?????? they are trying to kill the biggest deer. do they need the meat? HELL NO, i know this to be a fact. take your dumb country bumpkin a** to food lion, it's all about "i can get the biggest one and drink the most beer". Just FYI how do you know that bubba doesn't need the meat, or want it for that matter. We love deer meat and eat it here whenever DH get one. Also, most real bubbas know better than to go drinking and hunting at the same time. Fishing and drinking yes(do fish have central nervous systems? ;) ) Worst that can happen is catching a hook in the face but guns and booze don't usually make for a sucessful hunt. :D

[Bubblescc]

i don't need YOU to tell me a better way to argue my point. now, if you are a college graduate with major training in any form of physiology (must be more than me though which i would highly doubt)... than by all means...........tell me the difference between animal and human nervous systems and the mind/brain correlation????

You asked if I had children then you go on to say if one of them died etc etc. Point is you dont use someones CHILDREN for an analogy. You were specifically speaking to me. Do you really think I want an image of my child dying????????? This was cruel and unfeeling to me. and why do you feel the need to bring up your education? I am in college now in the medical field and it doesnt take a degree to know an animal feels pain. I didnt know we were debating the nervous system, I took offence because you were speaking of my children. WOW, I think you must doubt yourself to keep bringing education into it....

On a different note everyone have a wonderful Easter!!! ;)

[Bubblescc]

let me try to enlighten you on this absurd statement. do you have any children? if one of them were to die, would you rather them to go to sleep peacefully and quickly or would you rather a slower and painful death? it does matter the manner and method of death. animals have nervous systems just like we do :mad:


The death of a animal is NOTHING compared to the death of a child...thats my point......had nothing to do with the Nervous system, use your own children for an analogy ok.....

[Devine]

I didn't look at the pictures that were posted because things like that haunt me but I don't see anything wrong with the poster drawing attention to what's happening to the animals. I commend her for trying to raise awareness to what's going on.





Thank's! I really do appreciate it. :o You see straight to my point and not peta or meat eating. I appreciate you taking the time to read my post. God Bless! :)

[Njean31]

The death of a animal is NOTHING compared to the death of a child...thats my point......had nothing to do with the Nervous system, use your own children for an analogy ok.....

sorry i upset you. i was just trying too hard to get my point across.

[Njean31]

Hahahahaha Thanks guys.... I haven't laughed at a thread so hard since the first "Manda" thread I stumbled into. Just FYI how do you know that bubba doesn't need the meat, or want it for that matter. We love deer meat and eat it here whenever DH get one. Also, most real bubbas know better than to go drinking and hunting at the same time. Fishing and drinking yes(do fish have central nervous systems? ;) ) Worst that can happen is catching a hook in the face but guns and booze don't usually make for a sucessful hunt. :D

i don't think so about the fisheees ;) all the bubba's i know don't need the meat, they just enjoy the hunt and killing :( but they do eat the deer meat or give it away so it's not all lost. plus, they do keep the population down which in turn helps with car accidents. i'm on both sides of this too.

[freebielover]

I suppose there's a seat in hell waiting for me. :eek: :p


Me too :) See ya there!

[Bubblescc]

sorry i upset you. i was just trying too hard to get my point across.
Thats ok noone wants that kind of image in thier head lets just forget it ok ;)

[Devine]

Guess what! I got an email from Peta today! I dont remember signing up for them :confused: :confused: :confused: but they sent me an email of horse abuse story. It must had been so long ago. I just thought I would tell ya!

[Coke_Lover]

PETA has alot of hype. Do you know that most of the stuff they are protesting is not in the US? I know people who raise meat to eat. I like to eat meat. I don't go out and bash them on the head until dead. We take them to a slaughter and meat packing plant. It is gross all the blood, but they are not trying to do it without feeling for the animals. They kill them with as little pain as possible. I think PETA would have more reson to go after all the people who abuse there own animals. There are repeat offenders who go out and adopt many animals to just abuse and hurt them. My opion is that PETA puts alot up front with shocking pictures, and they are years and years old. I personally support no kill centers and help animals get adopted into familys. I donate to those shelters and drop off food. I help in vet. offices to help provide cheap if not free spay and neutering for pets by helping out in there offices. I don't like PETA, they sent me stuff to give to my daughter and her play group. I tried to get it approved by the parents and it was way to adult in content. More geared of high school students than 3 or 4 year old kids.

[Devine]

It is gross all the blood, but they are not trying to do it without feeling for the animals. They kill them with as little pain as possible.


I beg to differ sweetheart. If you can stomach some real footage of places in the US and not peta involved clips, then let me know I will give you a link. I am sad to say that many do suffer!

Only people who have never watched the process can believe that they don't feel any pain or aren't aware that they're being killed.

One point that many people are unaware of is that poultry is exempted from the requirements of the Humane Slaughter Act. Egg-laying hens are typically not stunned before slaughter. Also exempt from the act are animals killed under Kosher conditions.
But even if no suffering were involved, the killing of sensitive, intelligent animals on a vast scale (over six billion each year in the U.S. alone) cannot be regarded as morally correct, especially since today it is demonstrably clear that eating animal flesh is not only unnecessary but even harmful for people. Fellow-mammals are not like corn or carrots. To treat them as if they were is to perpetuate an impoverished morality which is based not on rationality but merely tradition.

Even the climactic killing process itself is not so clean as one is led to believe. Every method carries strong doubts about its "humaneness". For example, consider electrocution. We routinely give anesthetics to people receiving electro-shock therapy due to its painful effects. Consider the pole-axe. It requires great skill to deliver a perfect, instantly fatal blow. Few possess the skill, and many animals suffer from the ineptness with which the process is administered. Consider Kosher slaughter, where an animal is hoisted and bled to death without prior stunning. Often joints are ruptured during the hoisting, and the death is a slow, conscious one. The idea of a clean, painless kill is a fantasy promulgated by those with a vested interest in the continuance of the practices.

[fudlydud]

I can not even watch animal cops on animal planet . It makes me so sick to see a helpless animal donw that bad.

[Devine]

Ok guys and gals, this will be my last post. It describes exactly what I meant to honestly explain. I do hope you will read it. I will highlight the bottom part and what he says it all I was tring to say. That there has got to be a better way to eat of meat! I thank you for all of your comments. :)


When the suggestion was made that I visit a slaughterhouse to observe first-hand blatant infractions upon the rights of animals, I was very skeptical. The reason for my skepticism was that I felt a slaughterhouse did not present an example of cruelty far enough removed from everyday life to be poignant or relevant in a discussion of animal rights. I felt that I should be writing on something a little more esoteric or something considered cruel or immoral, such as the clubbing to death of baby seals. I was gravely mistaken. And the fact that what goes on inside a slaughterhouse is done because of the demand the vast majority of the American public has for the flesh of other living beings makes it all the more poignant and relevant.
There is no convenient escape from guilt by association for what goes on inside a slaughterhouse as there is from the case of the baby seals in the Arctic. While it is easy for most of us to refrain from purchasing the goods for which seals were slain -- thus incurring no guilt for their deaths -- most people willingly (and thoughtlessly) eat the flesh of one type of animal or another whose life has been terminated within the walls of a slaughterhouse.

As I stepped from my car in the parking lot of the packing plant, the combination of sounds and smells emanating from the corrugated metal structure made me question whether or not this was something I really wanted to go through with. The first thing to hit my senses was the sound of cattle -- not the pleas- ant bucolic mooing one might hear on a stroll down a country lane next to a small farm, but a rapid, frantic mooing. It was the kind of mooing I heard during a weekend stay at my uncle's dairy farm when one of the cows was attacked by stray dogs. Aside from the noise, the release of adrenaline in her body made the cow drool, and caused her nose to run so profusely that she briefly had difficulty breathing. At that moment in the parking lot, I could only sense discomfort in the sound of the cows, but later I discovered that each one awaiting slaughter in the chute leading to the "killing stall" was suffering the same symptoms of terror I witnessed at my uncle's farm.

The second thing I noticed was also a sound. As I walked toward the building, I heard the strange muffled whine that can only come from a saw cutting bone still encased in flesh. At this point I realized that I was not prepared for what I was about to experience. That feeling was intensified to the point of nausea when, as I walked closer, I caught my first whiff of the combination of smells that I would have to endure for the next few hours: the oddly sickening odor of newly slaughtered flesh still so warm from the life so recently removed that steam rises from it; the not so oddly nauseating stench of the sausage and hot dog meat boilers; and the quiet, cold reeking of flesh hanging, carcass after carcass, row upon row, in the freezer storage area. My imagination had prepared me a little bit for the visual experience, but I was entirely unprepared for the almost unbearable smell that permeated the entire plant.

After brief "pleasantries" with Jerry, the production manager of the plant, I was allowed to proceed through the building unguided and at my own pace. I began the tour "where it all starts", as Jerry put it, in the "kill shed".

I entered the kill shed through a short, tunnel-like hall through which I could see what I soon learned was the third butchering station. The kill shed consisted of one room in which a number of operations are performed by one or two of six butchers at four stations along the length of the room. In the kill shed there is also a United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) inspector who examines parts of every animal who goes through the kill shed.

The first station is the killing station. It is worked by one man whose job is to herd the animal into the killing stall, slaughter him or her, and begin the butchering process. This stage of the process takes about ten minutes for each animal, and begins with the opening of a heavy steel door that separates the killing stall from the waiting chute. The man working this station must then go into a corridor adjacent to the waiting chute, and prod his next victim into the killing stall with a high-voltage electric cattle prod. This is the most time-consuming part of the operation because the cattle are fully aware of what lies ahead, and are determined not to enter the killing stall. The physical symptoms of terror were painfully evident on the faces of each and every animal I saw either in the actual killing stall or in the waiting chute. During the 40 seconds to a minute that each animal had to wait in the killing stall before losing consciousness, the terror became visibly more intense. The animal could smell the blood, and see his or her former companions in various stages of dismemberment. During the last few seconds of life, the animal thrashes about the stall as much as its confines allow. All four of the cows whose deaths I witnessed strained frantically, futilely, and pathetically towards the ceiling -- the only direction that was not blocked by a steel door. Death came in the form of a pneumatic nail gun that was placed against their heads and fired.

The gun is designed so that the nail never completely leaves the gun, but simply is blown into the animal's head and then pulled out by the butcher as the animal collapses. Three of the four times I saw it used, it did the job on the first try, but one cow struggled a good deal after collapsing. After the animal has collapsed, the side of the killing stall is raised, and a chain is secured to the right hind leg. The cow is then hoisted by that one leg to a hanging position. At this point, the butcher drains the body of blood by slitting the cow's throat. When the blood vessels are severed, there is an amazing torrent of blood so profuse that the butcher is unable to step aside fast enough to avoid being covered with it. This steaming torrent of blood lasts only about 15 seconds, after which the only task left to the man at the first station is to skin and remove the animal's head.

At the second station in the kill shed, the headless animal is dropped to the floor. The body is propped up on the back and relieved of hooves and, if female, milk sack and udders. At this time, any urine and feces that didn't drain from the body during the first few seconds of death now pour freely onto the floor. The body is then slit down the middle, and the hide is peeled partially away. A yoke is then hooked to the stumps of the hind legs, the body is lifted upwards, and the rest of the hide is pulled past a roller secured to the floor and peeled off. The animal's body is now at the third station of the kill shed where it is gutted and then sawed in half -- becoming two "sides of beef".

The sides of beef are sprayed down and weighed at the fourth and final station of the kill station. They are then placed in the cooling locker where the residual warmth of life steams away slowly in preparation for the deep-freeze storage locker. From the cooling locker, the meat goes into a main storage area where it is kept for as long as a week. This locker exits to a butchering area where the sides of beef are reduced to parts for the supermarket which end up on dining room tables.

The final stop on my tour was the sausage and hot dog production facilities. It is often said that if you could see what goes into a hot dog, you'd never eat one again. Well that adage applies tenfold to the production of sausage. The most violently nauseating smell that I have ever experienced was the odor wafting up from the sausage meat boiling vats.

As I left the complex, I was embarrassed about my previous skepticism, and I encourage anyone who has any of the doubts that I once possessed to make a visit to a slaughterhouse or spend a day at a factory farm. I think it would become clear that there has to be better way to feed ourselves, and that it is our duty as moral beings to pursue the alternatives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the author:
Dave Gifford is a student at Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut. This comment was reprinted from "The Forum", the school's student newspaper.

[TexasGal]

But even if no suffering were involved, the killing of sensitive, intelligent animals on a vast scale (over six billion each year in the U.S. alone) cannot be regarded as morally correct, especially since today it is demonstrably clear that eating animal flesh is not only unnecessary but even harmful for people.

Then why do you eat it??? You've already said that you do. :confused:

[Devine]

Thanks for your question Texasgal,

The answer is I like meat to! But I dont want those animals to suffer so badly and know what lies ahead of them in the slaughter line as they watch the cow in front of them proceed! I will be eating this cows last thoughts to me now that I know the process. I agree with the student I posted earlier that said: I think it would become clear that there has to be better way to feed ourselves, and that it is our duty as moral beings to pursue the alternatives.

[stresseater]

You gotta be kidding.... right? How did this silly man think it got from the field to his table? Did he think they waited for it to lie down and die then have a vet disect it properly? They herd them in,kill them, drain them, skin them then chop them up into styrofoam sized pieces. Although his description was more poignant, it all boils down to the same thing. I'm sorry but I don't buy(those poor cows knew what was in store for them before they got there) what did the ones who had been there before tell them? ;)

[TexasGal]

Devine,

In your post that I was referring to, you have gone from trying to educate your audience, to preaching the moralities of killing animals for consumption. Because you openly admit that you eat meat too, I find your statement to be highly hypocritical.

[Coke_Lover]

Guess, what LADY. I have been to slaughter houses. AS I STATED..... I have seen the process from kill to what YOU eat at the table. I know people who worked in them. I have had a cow cut up on my kitchen table BECAUSE WE RAISE OUR OWN BEEF. I see the cow, feed it, pet it, take care of it when sick, AND YES take it to a slaugher house. I watch from the kill, I pick the cuts of meat, and what I want ground into hamburger. SO DON'T preach to me about a slaughter house until you have been in one. I eat all kinds of meat and have been part of or watched the whole process for diffrent animals. Do you eat turkey? Cause they run around like crazy when there head is cut off if you do it yourself. I take the animals we raise to a slaughter house to be more humane because I can't do it correctly that quickly and I don't want them to suffer. If you EAT MEAT you are supporting SLAUGHTER houses!!!! So if you want it to change DON'T EAT MEAT!!!!!

[tngirl]

People attribute the pain that an animal feels the same level as we humans feel. How many of you out there have had a total hysterectomy, come home the same day and be ready to run and romp as soon as the anesthesia wears off? How many men out there do you think there are that will be up and running around playing with their "siblings" after being castrated? I am not saying that animals do not feel pain...they do, but, it is not the same as we humans feel pain.

There is a process that goes on in the farrowing house (the building where sows are taken to give birth) at the hog farm:

Day 1: piglets have their tusks cut off, tails clipped and on some farms, their ears are notched for identification purposes. After this they are given a shot of antibiotics, sprayed with an iodine solution and put back in the crate with their mother. They fuss while you are doing this, but, as soon as you put them down they are off and running like nothing has happened. Also at this time, any sick, injured or deformed babies are killed. This is because it is already known that they are suffering and there is no reason to prolong their agony. When I first started on the farm this was something I could not even watch, let alone do myself. But, in the end it is better to go ahead and put them out of their misery.

Day 14: The males are castrated. This is done with a pair of wire snippers (this is the way I learned to do it)...snip, twist, yank and then spray with an iodine solution and put back in the crate with the mother. They are also given another antibiotic shot. The entire time you are handling them they are screaming their heads off, but once again, as soon as you put them down they are off and running.

Once the piglets are a certain age they are taken to a nursery to be weaned. After this they go to the finishing house. They stay at the finishing house until they reach approx. 220 lbs and then it is time to send them to market. They do not know what is going on....they are just upset because they are being removed from a place that they know and they don't want to leave, so of course, they have to be herded out of the pens and out the door. The majority of them do not want to leave and are frightened. They are then loaded on the truck and off they go.

As for the slaughter house, never been to one. But, as I said before, I have worked at a chicken processing plant. I agree, the animals are frightened, but they do not know what is "coming". They do not have that high of an intelligence. Any time you heard an animal away from what they "know", they get will be upset. Haven't you ever watched cattle or horses being herded? It is a natural instinct for them to flee what they perceive as a danger.

[Devine]

Hey everyone,

Hope everyone had a good Easter. I have not been on for 2 days now. Im tring to catch up on everything.

Tngirl,

Thanks for the explaination. I have seen this performed and I could not had wrote it any better.

CokeLover,

I dont know how to answer your question to be honest. To me raising an animal and loving it or caring for it, there is no way I could go take it to a slaughter house to watch it performed on the animal I raised to know and love. People are different to the emotions they feel. ANd yes, I have seen all slaughter houses for all types of animals. This includes turkeys, chickens, pigs, rabbits, horses, cows, and small deer ones. Im not preaching to you. Its for the ones that did not know there (once again).


Now lets stop the talk with farm animals and focus on all the other animals that are used in labs and the poor animals that are skinned alive for there fur. I have not heard anyone say anything about them! They perhaps suffer the most of inhumane things.

[stresseater]

Now lets stop the talk with farm animals and focus on all the other animals that are used in labs and the poor animals that are skinned alive for there fur. I have not heard anyone say anything about them! They perhaps suffer the most of inhumane things.
OK, in the United States almost everything that is put on the market MUST go through rigorous testing. Animal testing, then human testing. I highly doubt that if it hadn't been tested on the animals first then there would be very many takers for the human testing. Would you submit your body for testing in place of the rats, mice, chimpa, dogs and cats they use? As for animals skinned alive for thier furs??? I would think it would be easier to skin a dead animal than a live one so wouldn't it be in the best interest for the furrier to kill the animal first. I don't think they would do it while the animal is alive. :D

[Bubblescc]

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/Animal_Alternatives/cancer.htm

and your feelings on this kind of research would be? just curious? ;)

I dont think anyone addressed the other animal abuse because most of it happens outside of the US. I really dont think they give a crap about what americans think of thier animal abuse and what can anyone do to stop lets say china from eating dogs etc...

[Bubblescc]

I you have info on animal abuse in America that doesnt involve PETA I would be happy to listen so please feel free to post info. maybe there are click to help sites, or better yet do you donate time to local animal shelters? I think its better to focus on ones hometown and helping then trying to focus on the world. this is just my opinion..

heres some info that may be useful ;)

http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/general_information_on_animal_research/

[Bubblescc]

just found this out from that site

http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/videos/

Many know that Botox Cosmetic is used to smooth out wrinkles, but few know the real wrinkle here: Every batch of Botox is tested on animals.

I am now lookiing into the large companies that still use animal testing...
ANother one on your side

!

[Bubblescc]

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/products.htm

wow this list is crazy!! i cant believe the names on the bad list....

I am sure someone posted about this before but I dont remember...Its really shocking to see these companies that still test on animals. Well if nothing else devine you got me looking into some of this stuff. The stuff that actually affects the US..

I have looked at some of the companies websites listed on the bad list. They do give info about how they use animal testing if anyone is interested I can post the links to the sites I visited.

[Jolie Rouge]

I agree, Men that worked for Peta were caught throwing dogs in the trash or something like that, I know someone posted about it. Standing up for animal rights is a great thing to do but not with PETA I think thoughs people are crazy, just teasin!lol

N.C. Counties Say PETA Euthanizes Animals
June 23, 205

NORFOLK, Va. - Two North Carolina counties have stopped turning over shelter animals to People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, saying they were surprised the group euthanized cats and dogs instead of trying to find them homes.

The Norfolk-based animal-rights group said it tried to have some of the animals adopted, but the condition of some strays and the availability of homes made it impossible.

The Bertie County Board of Commissioners voted unanimously Monday to cut all ties to PETA, despite a written apology from its president. County Manager Zee Lamb said he believed euthanasia would be only a last resort for cats and dogs that were not adoptable.

Northampton County health director Sue Gay said she assumed the same. The counties learned that most animals instead had been euthanized after two PETA workers were arrested and charged with dumping dead animals in a shopping center's garbage bins.

Northampton County decided last week to stop working with PETA until the criminal cases against the two are resolved.

Since 2001, PETA has taken animals from shelters in Bertie, Hertford and Northampton counties and the town of Windsor. Documents filed with the state of Virginia showed that PETA euthanized about 6,100 domestic animals from 2001-03. Daphna Nachminovitch, director of PETA's domestic animal and wildlife department, said she didn't know how many were from North Carolina.

"Did we euthanize some animals who could have been adopted? Maybe," Nachminovitch said. "The point is that good homes are few and far between. Our aim here was to stop them from dying an agonizing death."

PETA said it offered to take stray animals and euthanize them by fast-acting injection because it considers that more humane than gassing or shooting them.

The organization has stayed in touch with Bertie and Northampton officials in hopes of mending the relationships, Nachminovitch said.

The two workers arrested last week, Adria Joy Hinkle, 27, of Norfolk, Va., and Andrew Benjamin Cook, 24, of Virginia Beach, Va., have a court hearing July 19 on charges of animal cruelty, disposal of dead animals and trespassing.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050623/ap_on_...HNlYwMlJVRPUCUl (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050623/ap_on_re_us/peta_arrests;_ylt=AlhPzL2Ik09PFkfC.Cq92DsPLBIF;_yl u=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl)

PETA workers face 25 felony counts in North Carolina
By DARREN FREEMAN, The Virginian-Pilot
© October 15, 2005 | Last updated 11:24 PM Oct. 14

WINTON, N.C. — The cats and dogs two PETA employees have been charged with euthanizing and dumping in an Ahoskie garbage bin were killed by injections of pentobarbital, a barbiturate commonly used to put down animals, according to new warrants issued and served on Friday.

Additionally, the two employees were charged with three felony counts of obtaining property by false pretenses. The charges allege that they euthanized three cats from an Ahoskie veterinarian after promising to find the animals new homes, according to the new warrants.

PETA employees Andrew B. Cook, 24, of Virginia Beach, and Adria J. Hinkle, 27, of Norfolk, were served with warrants on 22 felony charges of animal cruelty and the three felony charges of obtaining property by false pretense in court on Friday.

A grand jury is expected to consider formal indictments Oct. 31, Assistant District Attorney Donnie Taylor said.

The new animal cruelty charges replaced 31 previous animal cruelty charges, which were dismissed.

The new warrants now include more information, such as descriptions of animals investigators found, the causes of death and – in some warrants – photographs of the dead dogs.

The new information was added to clarify the charges, which previously did not have such information as the cause of death, Taylor said.

The two employees are still charged with eight misdemeanor counts of illegal disposal of dead animals and one count of trespassing.

Both have been released on $35,000 bail, and PETA is paying their legal fees. PETA suspended Hinkle for 90 days and did not discipline Cook.

Police began investigating this summer after carcasses of cats and dogs in plastic bags were found in a supermarket garbage bin in Ahoskie every Wednesday for four consecutive weeks. At least 80 animals were found.

Officers say that on June 15 they followed a van after it left Bertie County’s animal shelter, then staked out the garbage bins and arrested two PETA employees.

The officers found 18 dead dogs in a bin and 13 other animal carcasses in the van, which was registered to PETA.

PETA had been picking up animals in northeastern North Carolina since 2001, when a caller informed the group of poor conditions in shelters, according to a written apology PETA President Ingrid Newkirk sent to Bertie County officials.

Bertie County and Northampton County officials and one Ahoskie veterinarian said they believed that adoptable animals would find new homes, while sick, injured and wild animals would be euthanized.

Newkirk has since said that dumping the animals into trash bins violates PETA policy.

PETA typically euthanizes animals in Norfolk and cremates the carcasses, Newkirk said in a June 17 press conference.

Newkirk said at the time that the animals found in North Carolina had likely been given a lethal injection of a barbiturate that PETA is licensed to use.

Bertie and Northampton officials cut ties to PETA pending trial.

The counties are now euthanizing animals without help from PETA.


http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=93730&ran=57036




Bertie County and Northampton County officials and one Ahoskie veterinarian said they believed that adoptable animals would find new homes, while sick, injured and wild animals would be euthanized.

So I guess treatment and rehabillitation would be out of the question ...

[Jolie Rouge]

Gone fishin' — guilt-free

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michelle/malkin081303.asp

My sun-toasted toddler sits on a weathered dock, clutching her pink Barbie fishing pole with grown-up gravitas. Her pigtails bounce as she dangles her bare feet above the deep emerald lake, where her cherry red-and-white bobber waltzes in sync. She takes a swig from her tyke-sized Dannon bottled water and waits for the bluegill to strike.

"Where are they?" she asks impatiently, her face as taut as her two-pound test line.

Below, the feeding frenzy has begun. Tiny predators strike at the night crawler doubled over on my daughter's hook. The bobber goes under. My little fisher bolts up from her summer repose and reels in her prize: a beautiful bluegill sunfish no larger than the size of my palm. We admire its markings and spiny dorsal fin, then carefully unhook and release the catch back into its warm, watery domain.

"Bye-bye! Go back to your mama and dada and get bigger!" commands my budding little conservationist. "Now, can I have another yucky worm, please? Let's do it again!"

I can think of few things more idyllic, intimate, and wholesome than introducing a young child to fish responsibly. But animal-rights activists consider my daughter and me, and millions of other recreational fishers like us, immoral barbarians for practicing catch-and-release. The latest anti-fishing attack centers on new research purporting to show that fish feel pain when hooked.


According to Lynne Sneddon, a scientist at the Roslin Institute in Edinburgh, she has confirmed, for the first time, the "existence of nervous system receptors in the head of fish that respond to 'damaging stimuli.'" In a study that seems far more cruel and unusual than anything my daughter and I have ever done to our neighborhood sunfish, Sneddon injected bee venom and acetic acid into the lips of captive rainbow trout.

Sneddon and her colleagues interpreted the injected trout's refusal to eat and rubbing against tank walls as unequivocal signs of human-like emotional suffering. Maybe they just, um, wanted to get out of their barbaric aquatic cages and get back to their mamas and dadas? In all seriousness, many other scientists counter that fish are neurologically incapable of processing feelings. Fish, unlike higher and more well-developed primates, completely lack a neocortex, which produces an awareness of pain.

If little Nemo isn't cognizant of suffering, how can you claim he suffers? Or, as University of Wyoming scientist James Rose, put it in his own recently published study on fish and pain: "We know enough about consciousness to know that fish don't have the hardware" to feel it.

Sneddon's true agenda has less to do with establishing neuroscientific truths than with stoking fishers' guilt-and ultimately undermining the entire sport. "Really, it's kind of a moral question," Sneddon sniffed after the publication of her research. "Is your angling more important than the pain of fish?"

Radical groups such as PETA have taken this "Fishing Hurts" campaign to ugly extremes. Anti-fishing activists in America and Europe have intimidated researchers, dispatched topless demonstrators dressed as menacing mermaids to upset children's fishing programs, and thrown rocks at and sent scuba divers to scare fish away from angling waters. They've even tried to bully the Boy Scouts of America into dropping their traditional fishing merit badge.

"We seek to shift the ways animals are viewed, from being a resource to be exploited to that of the community of individuals that they are," PETA's Dawn Carr sanctimoniously explained a few years ago.


The ironic catch in protesting catch-and-release is that these environmental zealots are attacking a humane and responsible practice that allows large numbers of families to fish for sport without depleting precious resources in rivers and lakes. Anglers are among the most dedicated stewards of the environment. It's in our natural self-interest to ensure healthy, thriving fish stocks for generations to come. Fishing license fees contribute millions of dollars every year to fund ecological and fishery management programs nationwide.

So let the PETA types empty their Kleenex boxes while their scientific sympathizers torture some poor fish in a lab to prove an irrelevant point. My daughter and I are going to soak up the sun, enjoy our lakeside views, and go fishing-geared up and guilt-free.



PETA Rant

I am very open-minded on animal rights and animal welfare issues. The way we treat animals (who have the capacity to suffer) for our human ends deserves serious scrutiny and debate. For over a year I chose a vegetarian diet in large part because I abhor the way animals are often treated to produce food and goods for human consumption. I’ve never believed killing and eating animals is wrong, but I welcome the debate about whether and at what level animals deserve special protections and rights. This is why PETA pisses me off.

Instead attempting to engage in constructive debate, they move from one attention-grabbing campaign to another full of the same close-minded zeal and bigotry as the worst fundamentalist Christian evangelists. Their tactics are eerily similar. For example, the image here is the cover of a comic book, intended to be distributed to young children regarding their Fishing Hurts campaign.
http://sstrudeau.com/archives/images/DaddyKillsComiccover.jpg I’m not so much disturbed that PETA is arguing against catching and eating fish, but that this campaign targets children with the primary message that because your father goes fishing he’s an enraged, murdering monster. http://fishinghurts.com/ http://www.petakids.com/fish-corner.html http://www.petakids.com/comics.asp Only close-minded, self-righteous zealots would attempt to convince seven year olds that their parents are monsters. This most reminds me of religious comics I’ve seen on the topics of abortion and evolution. Creepy.

While I’m loathe to endorse any work that paints fellow Michigander Ted Nugent in a sympathetic light, Penn & Teller did an episode about PETA that highlights some of their hypocrisy, questionable arguments and tactics. You can watch part of the episode here. http://media.putfile.com/petaBS I don’t think their treatment is 100% fair, but I do think they present some reasonable criticisms.

http://sstrudeau.com/?p=115

[Jolie Rouge]

Who let the dogs out?
Debra J. Saunders
Thursday, December 22, 2005

LOS ANGELES Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa never should have promised that he would fire L.A. Department of Animal Services head Guerdon Stuckey when he was running for mayor. Why? Because, when Villaraigosa fired Stuckey last week, he rewarded the violent tactics of the Animal Defense League and anonymous animal-rights activists who oppose city shelters euthanizing unwanted animals.

I, too, would like to see all city animal shelters adopt the no-kill policies supported by pet lovers. But I understand that shelters don't euthanize dogs and cats for kicks. They are overwhelmed with unwanted animals. The culprits are people who don't spay, neuter or take loving care of their pets -- not those who work in shelters.

Even People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals kills animals in its shelter. In fact, PETA's 2003 rate for euthanizing animals was more than 85 percent. That's worse than L.A., which is expected to euthanize half its animal population this year -- according to the Los Angeles Daily News. As Rafael Pizarro of the union that represents L.A. shelter workers noted, putting animals down is devastating for those who must do it.

No wonder, then, that 149 Animal Service employees -- about half of the department -- sent a letter to Villaraigosa protesting Stuckey's dismissal. "The terrorists will never be satisfied," they wrote. "They will never go away. It is time you stand up to them."

Anonymous activists have been harassing L.A. animal workers for some time. They planted a smoke bomb in the building where former Animal Services Director Stuckey lived. The car of Stuckey's predecessor, Jerry Greenwalt, was spray-painted with the word "murderer."

L.A. City Attorney Rocky Delgadillo recently filed charges against the Animal Defense League for a two-year campaign of harassment against department manager David Diliberto. ADL leaders reportedly gave out Diliberto's address and announced to their followers "action alerts" -- which entailed pounding on the door of his home at night, shouting at his four children and threatening his wife. They even posted online the address of a neighbor who complained. There was a bomb threat. In August, two people dressed as mortuary workers showed up at his home to pick up a dead body. A false report of gunshots brought three squad cars and a police helicopter to the Diliberto home.

Angeleno political writer Joel Kotkin figures Villaraigosa made "a promise which I'm sure he's sorry he made."

The mayor's spokesman, Joe Ramallo, argued that Villaraigosa did not cave in to animal-rights extremists. Instead, Ramallo countered that Villaraigosa tried to work with Stuckey but "this guy was not up to the job." (L.A. Daily News writer Rick Orlov reported that Stuckey had no animal experience when he took the job and "he didn't even have a pet.") With Villaraigosa's support of the criminal charges, Ramallo added, his boss is "doing something that upsets both sides."

Sorry, but I have to agree with David Martosko of the Center for Consumer Freedom, who observed that when you give in to terrorists, "you're just asking for more trouble."

The mayor's spokesman told me that Villaraigosa will stand by Stuckey's replacement, Ed Boks, if the rat-huggers attack him.

Except Boks speaks their weird language. As the L.A. Times reported, Boks said of the extremists' aggression: "Usually it erupts into what you call radicalism when people feel they haven't been listened to."

What you call radicalism?

Try: Threatening families, scaring children and destroying other people's property.

Not listened to? ADL spokesman Jerry Vlasak recently appeared before the Senate and on "60 Minutes" justifying the murder of medical researchers who use lab animals.

When radicals of any stripe -- anti-abortion, anti-trade or anti-shelter -- get what they want after resorting to harassment and intimidation, know that other extremists are paying attention. That's why you don't reward them. Ever.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?...EDGU6GB4FN1.DTL

[Jolie Rouge]

Via Marc Levin at TAE Online: http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.177...icle_detail.asp (http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.17751/article_detail.asp)

All told, in August and September alone, ELF’s acts of eco-terrorism have cost individuals and businesses some $54 million, the most damage ever inflicted by eco-terrorism in a two-month period. The FBI has now declared ELF the nation’s most threatening homegrown terrorist organization.

A related group, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), targets laboratories that conduct vital scientific research on animals. Walter Low, a researcher at a University of Minnesota laboratory, noted that a recent ALF attack on his facility “has set back two years research conducted there on Alzheimer’s disease and cancer.”

The ELF and ALF have also taken credit for arsons at a Vail, Colorado ski resort, as well as damaging crop fields at university research centers in the Midwest, fur farms in the Pacific Northwest, meat vendors in the San Francisco Bay area, and department stores on the East Coast.

Since the ELF split off from the radical environmental group Earth First! in 1998, its attacks have caused more than $100 million in damage in the United States.

However, the plague of eco-terrorism is hardly confined to America. In Europe, terrorist incidents in the name of animal rights have increased from 39 in 1999 to 110 in 2002. The European news agency Novum recently reported that the damage caused by animal rights activists in Europe in the last 20 years totals $60 million.

While these acts of eco-terror are, of course, illegal, few people realize that the money being used to support or commit these crimes has itself been illegally laundered through tax-exempt organizations. Environmental organizations designated by the IRS as 501©(3) groups are illegally transferring funds to non-exempt groups, which then use the money for eco-terror campaigns.

Wholesale transfers from more tax-restrictive organizations to less-restrictive organizations are illegal on their face because there is no way to be sure that co-mingled funds won’t be used for non-exempt purposes. Tax-exempt activities are limited to: charitable, religious, educational, scientific, and literary work, public safety testing, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and the prevention of cruelty to children or animals.

On September 22, the charitable oversight group Public Interest Watch filed a complaint with the IRS charging Greenpeace with making such illegal transfers. In a report entitled “Greenpeace, Dirty Money: Tax Violations in the World of Non-Profits,” Public Interest Watch found that Greenpeace Fund, a 501©(3) transferred over $10 million in exempt funds to non-exempt Greenpeace organizations such as Greenpeace, Inc., between 1998 and 2000. The Canadian equivalent of the IRS recently denied Greenpeace tax-exempt status because it determined its activities were not wholly charitable.

Greenpeace, Inc. and other non-exempt Greenpeace entities benefitting from these transfers have committed numerous acts of eco-terrorism. They have blockaded a U.S. naval base, broken into the central control building of a nuclear power station in England, overrun the Exxon Mobil corporate headquarters in Texas, and rammed a ship into the French sailboat competing in the 2003 America’s Cup, permanently damaging the vessel.

In April 2002, Greenpeace activists forcibly boarded a cargo ship in Florida carrying Brazilian wood. In connection with this incident, federal prosecutors obtained an indictment against Greenpeace this July for violating an 1872 law prohibiting the unauthorized boarding of “any vessel about to arrive at the place of her destination.” The trial in this case is scheduled for December in Miami.

Greenpeace isn’t alone in funneling tax-exempt dollars into eco-terrorism efforts. According to the Center for Consumer Freedom, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has donated at least $70,000 from its tax-exempt coffers to the ALF.

[justme23]

the manner of death does matter.........it does matter the manner and method of death. have any of you actually witnessesed a death???? it isn't pretty i will be the first to tell you as an eyewitness to many deaths. can't we find a way a better way to to kill an animal for it's meat? don't close your eyes so tightly......."I" do know this is a hard subject, but it is reality. people are mean as hell...............these dumb arse country boy's go "hunting" to KILL for what?????? they are trying to kill the biggest deer. do they need the meat? HELL NO, i know this to be a fact. take your dumb country bumpkin a** to food lion, it's all about "i can get the biggest one and drink the most beer".

I really was gonna stay out of this... I grew up eating deer meat 6 months out of a year. My father had heads on the wall, but he also put meat in our freezer. Don't be like everyone else you're complaining about and bunch every one together and try to stay away from the southern put down slang... it shows you as not quite as educated as you want everyone to think you are.

[Njean31]

I really was gonna stay out of this... I grew up eating deer meat 6 months out of a year. My father had heads on the wall, but he also put meat in our freezer. Don't be like everyone else you're complaining about and bunch every one together and try to stay away from the southern put down slang... it shows you as not quite as educated as you want everyone to think you are.


i was a little tipsy the other night when i wrote all of that and so i wouldn't have normally put some of what i did in my posts and i have already apologised to someone on here i blatently offended. i do understand why "some" people hunt but the majority of the hunters that i know do it for the fun of it. they go hunting during the day and evening and they all meet back at the hunting club that night to celebrate the biggest kill by getting drunk. if you'll read on further you'll see where i said i understand hunting for those who do it for the meat and i realise it cuts down on deer on the roads.

[Devine]

I am also a true hearted Southern Gal myself. :)

First off, since we are on Peta again, lol, I will say that my own personal feelings about them would be,,

I'm happy for the awareness that they have for the suffering of animals ( that I appreciate)
This is how I see it. Peta is a world wide organization. You have a couple of very bad apples in the bunch. Someone gets ahold of the bad apple and boy oh boy the whole thing is huge! (Which it really should be in some ways to get the attention needed to stop it)but at the same time there are many people that were honest inside of the organization Im sure. That are true hearted to animals and were supporting what peta really is "supposed" to stand for.

Now with that being said, I am upset with what I hear and read to. If your gonna have a huge organization make sure you got the right folks working for ya, and not hire someone that needs an after school job and could care less about animals. Also, as far as the animals being put to sleep, if nothing further could had been done for those animals, then I myself would be all for the most humane fast way to put them to rest. BUt if they were not sick animals and not dieing then I think its wrong to do, and I would be so saddened by it.
I have just recently become aware of peta in the past year! I have never funded them, but I have visited there site to see the undercover videos and other things like that just because its what im interested in knowing and that was for my information and those animals in it suffering..not for peta!

Alf..
I think its an awesome thing to rescue animals that are in situations such as Britches. I dont think its a good idea to destroy so much stuff, but then again I see why they would want to because of the threat of it being used on another animal.
However God is not violent, He is compassion and love. But many things being done to these animals are very violent and not compassionate in the least bit! However, 2 wrongs dont make a right!

As far as the Facts of animal testing and benefits its provided us with.

I would like to point out these tests do not serve much purpose since humans are so different from other animals. Because animals do not develop lung cancer when forced to inhale tobacco smoke, health warnings were delayed until the link was realized in humans.

Many drugs have been tested on animals and declared safe, only to later cause serious side-effects in humans. Such cases kill more than 100,000 people in the U.S. alone. On the other hand, penicillin was not used for a long time because it killed the rabbits that it was tested on, while aspirin poisoned cats. There are other solutions to animal testing, such as in vitro tests that use actual human cells and tissue to study disease and develop vaccines and antibodies, computer modeling that simulates the human body to study the spread of diseases, clinical studies to monitor illness in individual patients and post-mortem studies to evaluate people who have died from certain ailments.


Drugs that pass animal tests end up harming or killing humans about 61% of the time. Promising treatments are withheld from humans when they don't pass animal tests. Scientists point to huge chances of possible vaccines for cancer, heart disease, and HIV being withheld from the public because of faulty animal tests.
And not all of the animals killed in laboratories are researching drugs and cures, millions of rabbits die after being tortured by cosmetic companies. Cosmetic companies perform more then half of all animal tests.
Animal testing is a flawed and generally misleading method of scientific investigation that wastes time, money and resources.
Animals and humans are very different physiologically, metabolically, anatomically, genetically and psychologically. There are many ways in which humans and animal are different. Rodents deposit plaque (fatty acids) in the liver, while humans deposit plaque in the blood vessels. Unlike humans, rats have no gall bladder. Cats lack an enzyme that makes it impossible for them to metabolize ibuprofen. The circulation system of dogs is different because they walk on four legs, while humans walk on two. The list goes on and on.
Not only that, animals can not be used to test for other animals. Researchers at Carnegie Mellon University tested similarities between rats and mice, and found that only 30% of the time, a drug that cures a disease in rats cures the same disease in mice. Animal testing is only good for the animal that is being tested on. The only true scientific model for a rat is another rat. Likewise, the only true scientific model for a human is another human.
The General Accounting Office reviewed the drugs marketed between 1976 and 1985. Of these, 52% were found to be more dangerous than pre-market animal studies had indicated, with adverse side effects including permanent disability and death. Less then half of drugs and cosmetics on the market show the same result in humans as in animals. Instead of animal testing, you would be better off tossing a coin!
Most of the people that promote animal testing also point to the polio vaccine, but the truth is far more complicated. The most important advance in the development of a polio vaccine came in 1949 when Enders, Weller, and Robbins showed that the polio virus could be grown in human tissue. They were awarded the Nobel prize for this discovery. Despite this breakthrough, Salk and Sabin - who are usually credited with the polio vaccines - continued their reliance on traditional animal models and the use of monkey tissues. They feared that human tissues would harbor dangerous human viruses. We now know that monkey cells harbor dozens of viruses, some of which have been shown to infect humans, and are probably at least as dangerous as human tissue, if not more so. Sabin himself made an impressive argument against animal testing when he testified to the House Committee on Veterans Affairs in 1984 saying, "...work on prevention [of polio] was delayed by an erroneous conception of the nature of the human disease, based on misleading experimental models [of polio] in monkeys." Just because some scientists used monkeys doesn't mean they had to or that monkeys were a good choice.
Animal produces inaccurate and dangerous results and wastes enormous amounts of precious time and resources, while promising-new-techniques are ignored.
Consider the enormous wastefulness of maternal deprivation studies, in which monkeys are taken from their mothers and systematically abused. The conclusion from these studies, that abuse and neglect lead to psychological damage and social maladjustment. It certainly doesn't justify the suffering of countless animals or the millions of dollars, which have been spent to come to this foregone conclusion. Meanwhile, programs to help abused and neglected children are deprived of the funding which could make a very significant impact on these children's lives.
Since 1901, 2/3 of all Noble Prizes in medicine have been awarded to scientists that used alternative technologies, not animal experiments in there research. Results derived from animal experiments have had a very minimal effect on the dramatic rise in life expectancy in the 20th century.
Between 25 and 50 billion animals are
meaninglessly killed in laboratories each year.

[Jolie Rouge]

So you think it is okay to harrass people ( and their children ) because you think you are "right" ? It is okay to destroy private property - corporate or personal - because you are "right" and they are "wrong"


ELF’s acts of eco-terrorism have cost individuals and businesses some $54 million

----

A related group, the Animal Liberation Front (ALF), targets laboratories that conduct vital scientific research on animals. Walter Low, a researcher at a University of Minnesota laboratory, noted that a recent ALF attack on his facility “has set back two years research conducted there on Alzheimer’s disease and cancer.”

The ELF and ALF have also taken credit for arsons at a Vail, Colorado ski resort, as well as damaging crop fields at university research centers in the Midwest, fur farms in the Pacific Northwest, meat vendors in the San Francisco Bay area, and department stores on the East Coast


When they destroy a facility doing research - all the animal testing is wasted because they are just going to duplicate all the same work - killling even MORE animals the second time around.

How about the morons who released all the animals at a mink ranch - just broke the locks on the cages and left. The animals were all farm raised and most of them died because they could forage for food, were unaccostomed to life outside a cage, or killed each other in the confusion and panic. 89% of the animals died or had to be put down due to the injuries. So what was accomplished ??

[stresseater]

Did that information come straight from peta? Source please.

[Jolie Rouge]

Peta is a world wide organization. You have a couple of very bad apples in the bunch. Someone gets ahold of the bad apple and boy oh boy the whole thing is huge! (Which it really should be in some ways to get the attention needed to stop it)but at the same time there are many people that were honest inside of the organization Im sure. That are true hearted to animals and were supporting what peta really is "supposed" to stand for.

Now with that being said, I am upset with what I hear and read to. If your gonna have a huge organization make sure you got the right folks working for ya, and not hire someone that needs an after school job and could care less about animals.

According to the Center for Consumer Freedom, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has donated at least $70,000 from its tax-exempt coffers to the ALF.

If this is the case, then we are not talking about "one or two bad apples" - this is not an over eager or misguided student. This is decision making at the highest levels.

[annie169]

OOOOOoo...I have a PETA story!!! :D Our County Fair was in Feb. and we went (my daughter and I performed in it). Well, we went to go see the animals and ON the DUCKLING cage, someone had put a PETA sticker stating "I am NOT a Nugget" DUHHH...they're DUCKLINGS not CHICKS. They need to verify what creature they're labeling. (I ripped off the sticker and threw it out) :cool:

I know a good place for meat...next to the veggies n mashed potatoes!!

[Devine]

So you think it is okay to harrass people ( and their children ) because you think you are "right" ? It is okay to destroy private property - corporate or personal - because you are "right" and they are "wrong"


I'm gonna copy and paste what I said again. Hopefully you will read it this time. lol ;)
Alf..
I think its an awesome thing to rescue animals that are in situations such as Britches. I dont think its a good idea to destroy so much stuff, but then again I see why they would want to because of the threat of it being used on another animal.
However God is not violent, He is compassion and love. But many things being done to these animals are very violent and not compassionate in the least bit! However, 2 wrongs dont make a right!

[Jolie Rouge]

interesting choice .....

[LuvBigRip]

http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/jarboe021202.htm

Estimates of damage and destruction in the United States claimed by the ALF during the past ten years, as compiled by national organizations such as the Fur Commission and the National Association for Biomedical Research (NABR), put the fur industry and medical research losses at more than 45 million dollars. The ALF is considered a terrorist group, whose purpose is to bring about social and political change through the use of force and violence.


Very interesting article of ALF and it's association with PETA

http://www.consumerfreedom.com/news_detail.cfm/headline/2708

[tngirl]

I'm gonna copy and paste what I said again. Hopefully you will read it this time. lol ;)
Alf..
I think its an awesome thing to rescue animals that are in situations such as Britches. I dont think its a good idea to destroy so much stuff, but then again I see why they would want to because of the threat of it being used on another animal.
However God is not violent, He is compassion and love. But many things being done to these animals are very violent and not compassionate in the least bit! However, 2 wrongs dont make a right!

God is not violent? What Bible have you been reading?

[Donnagg123]

God is not violent? What Bible have you been reading?
I agree. Not that I do not believe in God, but how many people did he smite in the bible? Did he not turn someone into a pilar of salt for looking back? Did he not flood the entire land (killing people) and make Noah get into the Ark? I am sure others have more examples, but yeah he may be loving but he is also (i think this is the quote) a vengeful God as well.

[Bubblescc]

God is not violent? What Bible have you been reading?

I know I am so tired of hearing God is love and blah blah. If you believe at all in the bible it tells us a much different story. Didnt God give us the animals to eat? I am not sure why GOD was mentioned in the first place, Maybe I didnt read her post correctly but I dont see the relevance....Like I said could just be me..

any non christian I am NOT trying to put my views on you I am just trying to give an example ok....Please noone get the wrong idea

Heres an example for you God is a loving God but he is also a Just God...

What about when Pharoah wouldnt let GODs people go he commanded his angels to kill the first born male child of anyone that was found without the mark upon the door this was called the passover because those with the mark upon the thier door were passed over...

I have many more examples!

Thanks Donnagg and Tngirl what an excellent point the both of you made!!

[Bubblescc]

[QUOTE=(i think this is the quote) a vengeful God as well.[/QUOTE]


You are Right!!! ;)

[Devine]

Everything God has done was because of love. The only fear you should have of God is a revrant fear. Everything we do in our lives is our choice. God gave us that freedom of choice out of his love for us.

The Bible I have read is the King James version. You are referring to the Old Testament. :)

[Devine]

Also in the Bible, there were people that many hated. Ex. prostitutes, tax collectors, etc etc. I cant remember the part in the Bible where its menchioned, but its somewhere. Basically what happens is instead of sitting down to dine with all of the important respected people, He choose to sit with the others.

If you really want to talk about His love for us. Think about the cross. :)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotton son that who so ever belive in Him shall not parish but have everlasting life! How many of you would love the world that you created so much, even tho people spit at your name and mock you. How many had a love so deep for even those people to give there own sons life to pardon those same peoples sins? No one. The reason is because we can not comprehend a love so pure and real.

For those that dont beleive in the Bible. Many things written in New Testamant say many things that have happened and are happening still.
Also, trees look to the sky. A bird never worries where his next meal comes from because he knows. Everything that was made from God is love. Everyone is here for a reason weither you beleive it or not. God choose you to be here. Because he loves you.

I dont know about you, but I look forward to the day I live in heaven with God and have anything I want. Since I was a child I always prayed for God to have me a white horse with white wings ready with the most beautiful robe hanging from its back that reads I love God! And I know that right now in heaven, my horse is there. So when you see a white horse in heaven with I love God on it, you will see me riding it. :)

[TexasGal]

Everything God has done was because of love. The only fear you should have of God is a revrant fear. Everything we do in our lives is our choice. God gave us that freedom of choice out of his love for us.

What about the bet he made with the devil over Job's loyalty? Was that done out of love for humankind? :confused:


Also in the Bible, there were people that many hated. Ex. prostitutes, tax collectors, etc etc. I cant remember the part in the Bible where its menchioned, but its somewhere. Basically what happens is instead of sitting down to dine with all of the important respected people, He choose to sit with the others.

That was Jesus...I suppose we could start a debate over whether Jesus was God's son or a manifestation of God himself. :p

[Bubblescc]

Everything God has done was because of love. The only fear you should have of God is a revrant fear. Everything we do in our lives is our choice. God gave us that freedom of choice out of his love for us.


The Bible I have read is the King James version. You are referring to the Old Testament. :)

FYI I am not preaching or speaking to anyone except Devine so please donot take offence....Just trying to get a point accrossed even though she doesnt seem to read a whole post she just nit picks.....

Yes I read the King James Version too, you need to try to make your wording a little better because it looks like your saying the King James doesnt have the old testament......

The old testament and the new testament are exactly the same except that the new testament makes the provision for mercy in christ. The bible tells us that god is the same yesterday, today and forever, we may change, but god does not. People shouldnt emasculate Christ. Yes God is love but he is also a vengeful jealous righteous God. Basically Jesus is a real man, he tries to do right and love people, but you dont want to make him angry. Why do you think the people clamored for jesus to be crucified if he was all love? They condemned him to death because they hated him. After he healed the sick, raised the dead, fed the hungry gave hope to the destitute. For any of this do you think he deserved to die? They hated him because he convicted them of the sin in theyre lives. You obviously either have never read the entire new testament or choose to ignore parts of it. Jesus promised that when he returned, he would come with a sword! In his ministry he overturned tables and lost his temper, he called the people a wicked and adulterous generation, a brood of vipers, and dogs not fit to sit at the masters table. God is many things not just loving!!


This is not intended to offend Anyone Honestly I am speaking to Devine. Sorry but your living in a fantasy world and EVERYTIME someone points out something to you all you do is ignore them. How you ever brought GOD into a thread about animals I still havent figured out...

[loveswolfs]

i to wonder why god was brought up since the first post was about animal's. i stopped saying any thing when she then had to bring the Military in to it, or least she did to me.

[tngirl]

Bubblecc, I think you did a great job at getting your point across and I don't think you were "offensive" in any way. I believe God is love, but, He is everything. But, if the Bible is to be believed, then Devine and many others with the same opinion are in for a rude awakening with the return of Christ. I personally do not like the implications that was made in the original post mentioning God in this thread.

I believe in God and love Him to the fullest, but I can't stand a Bible thumper.

[Devine]

I believe in God and love Him to the fullest, but I can't stand a Bible thumper.

I only said one Bible verse :confused: lol Oh and I will let God be the judge. Besides. He is only one that knows my heart. Afterall he is my maker! ;)



Yes I read the King James Version too, you need to try to make your wording a little better because it looks like your saying the King James doesnt have the old testament......

Sometimes I have a hard time putting my thought into words on paper, in this case typed text. Thank you for clearing that up for me. :) :o


i to wonder why god was brought up since the first post was about animal's. i stopped saying any thing when she then had to bring the Military in to it, or least she did to me.

LOL you are so true. I said one thing in a reply about Gods love and my heart for animals, and the next thing you see is so many posts about people questioning me about God. (WHich is ok) The military issue was brought up once because someone told me to get a life, and thats when I told them about my life! (Here again it gets blown out of porportion) lol

I just answer the questions as they come to be honest. My whole concern to vent was all about animals and several of you have turned it into 4 other issues in one post! :rolleyes:

But guess who it all gets blamed on :confused: :D :p lol I dont care though its ok with me. I am only 25 years old and I hear many other people on here say things not just in my posts, that are very child like. I have a life time yet to live and learn. Thats why I appreciate everyones postings even if it is mean or wise. I appreciate it all :)

[Njean31]

devine, don't worry about it. i think that the main problem here is that "out of sight out of mind" mentality. you brought into light something that is very hard to deal with and accept with us meat eaters. i'm not getting deep in this again, i just wanted to tell you that i'm on your side.

[Bubblescc]

devine, don't worry about it. i think that the main problem here is that "out of sight out of mind" mentality. you brought into light something that is very hard to deal with and accept with us meat eaters. i'm not getting deep in this again, i just wanted to tell you that i'm on your side.
WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!! Stop pretending she is being wronged in some way! I find it HILARIOUS that you and her are meateaters and say we can deal with something or except it! THe POINT is PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH! SHE is ignoring everything that is said but what she can handle......

SHE brought GOD into this and not just once. If you cannot make a point clear or argue your points then dont post.....I am tired of this holier than thou attitude. When your wrong about something for heavens sake just admit it....

I have been very nice up to a point this thread is just too funny.....

NJean can you please actually read what people have said before you chose a persons "side" . Nobody was rude too her...I sat and read every post

[Devine]

Njean,

I thank you for that.

[QUOTE=Bubblescc] WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!![QUOTE]

The post was not created just for you Queeny :eek: , but for everyone including people that may had appreciated this posting. Its rude to put a person down with a comment like that and I find it very disgusting. You have got to be the most ugliest rude person I have ever read of. Your postings like this one say to me that you see your thoughts as being right. First off everyone is entitled to there own opinions. You are not to judge someone for what they do or dont agree with. I have read closely your posts and I watch as you look for the oppertunity to blast someone! You yourself , all of them, and I are ALL created equal. NO ONE is less than ANYONE here. You should respect peoples posting more than to comment such rude remarks just because they feel that way. AND TALKING IN CAPS is a indicator you want something to be noticed.... Try thinking more positive about people. Even if you dont agree with what they post you still should respect them. :confused: :confused:

[Bubblescc]

Njean,

I thank you for that.

[QUOTE=Bubblescc] WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!![QUOTE]

The post was not created just for you Queeny :eek: , but for everyone including people that may had appreciated this posting. Its rude to put a person down with a comment like that and I find it very disgusting. You have got to be the most ugliest rude person I have ever read of. Your postings like this one say to me that you see your thoughts as being right. First off everyone is entitled to there own opinions. You are not to judge someone for what they do or dont agree with. I have read closely your posts and I watch as you look for the oppertunity to blast someone! You yourself , all of them, and I are ALL created equal. NO ONE is less than ANYONE here. You should respect peoples posting more than to comment such rude remarks just because they feel that way. AND TALKING IN CAPS is a indicator you want something to be noticed.... Try thinking more positive about people. Even if you dont agree with what they post you still should respect them. :confused: :confused:
I was nice in my post to begin with!!! I also started reseaqrching things and was posting my findings for you and I WAS IGNORED!!!! I didnt judge anyone!!!! SEE YOU ONLY SEE WHAT YOU WANT TO SEE!

[Njean31]

WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!! Stop pretending she is being wronged in some way! I find it HILARIOUS that you and her are meateaters and say we can deal with something or except it! THe POINT is PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH! SHE is ignoring everything that is said but what she can handle......

SHE brought GOD into this and not just once. If you cannot make a point clear or argue your points then dont post.....I am tired of this holier than thou attitude. When your wrong about something for heavens sake just admit it....

I have been very nice up to a point this thread is just too funny.....

NJean can you please actually read what people have said before you chose a persons "side" . Nobody was rude too her...I sat and read every post

there is obviously a "side" on here........it's ya'll and her. and you may KNOW what she is talking about, but SEEING the pictures is what i'm referring to and actually having to own up to how it arrives on our plates. i will tell you this...if i were forced to tour a slaughterhouse i would probably become a vegetarian. yes, i know it happens.........but SEEING it DOES bring it into a new light and it "hurts" me. the rest of what you wrote is off the deep end......i'm not holier than thou........please. and i don't practice what i preach all the time either....i smoke, i drink, i curse.........and i preach to my kids and patients not to (ofcourse not the cursing part for the pt's, i just got cussed out yestereday by one).

[Bubblescc]

I you have info on animal abuse in America that doesnt involve PETA I would be happy to listen so please feel free to post info. maybe there are click to help sites, or better yet do you donate time to local animal shelters? I think its better to focus on ones hometown and helping then trying to focus on the world. this is just my opinion..

heres some info that may be useful ;)

http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/general_information_on_animal_research/


HERES SOMETHING I WAS IGNORED!

[Bubblescc]

http://www.uncaged.co.uk/products.htm

wow this list is crazy!! i cant believe the names on the bad list....

I am sure someone posted about this before but I dont remember...Its really shocking to see these companies that still test on animals. Well if nothing else devine you got me looking into some of this stuff. The stuff that actually affects the US..

I have looked at some of the companies websites listed on the bad list. They do give info about how they use animal testing if anyone is interested I can post the links to the sites I visited.


HERES another on you "SIDE" I was ignored!!!

SEE she want interested in any finding I had???

[Bubblescc]

there is obviously a "side" on here........it's ya'll and her. and you may KNOW what she is talking about, but SEEING the pictures is what i'm referring to and actually having to own up to how it arrives on our plates. i will tell you this...if i were forced to tour a slaughterhouse i would probably become a vegetarian. yes, i know it happens.........but SEEING it DOES bring it into a new light and it "hurts" me. the rest of what you wrote is off the deep end......i'm not holier than thou........please. and i don't practice what i preach all the time either....i smoke, i drink, i curse.........and i preach to my kids and patients not to (ofcourse not the cursing part for the pt's, i just got cussed out yestereday by one).


But your implying noone has seen and I HAVE and I believe tngirl has also had some dealing with this....I might be mistaken on this but I will look

Njean you are a sweet person but take up for someone because they are right not because you think everyone is out to get her because were not...Please look at the post when I was doing some research fo my own and she ignored me completely but If I say something she doesnt like she is all over us...I understand what you are saying!! ok? I know some people just put things in the back of thier mind where its out of sight out of mind but thats not what happened here...

[Bubblescc]

just found this out from that site

http://www.hsus.org/animals_in_research/videos/

Many know that Botox Cosmetic is used to smooth out wrinkles, but few know the real wrinkle here: Every batch of Botox is tested on animals.

I am now lookiing into the large companies that still use animal testing...
ANother one on your side

!
Heres another where I was ignored......

She says she read all my posts and when I posted I bashed, and that is a LIE look for yourself!

[Njean31]

she was attacked/bashed or whatever from the beginning, before God, the military, or other sites were brought up. it was the pictures and peta that upset everyone to begin with and it just went downhill from there. i'm sorry that i added it to it last week when i was tipsy by saying some silly things. i just came back today (because she is still getting a bashing, even worse) to say that i still understand what she is trying to say and that she is not alone in her thoughts. i don't want to argue with anyone and won't.

[Bubblescc]

Njean,

I thank you for that.

[QUOTE=Bubblescc] WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!![QUOTE]

The post was not created just for you Queeny :eek: , but for everyone including people that may had appreciated this posting. Its rude to put a person down with a comment like that and I find it very disgusting. You have got to be the most ugliest rude person I have ever read of. Your postings like this one say to me that you see your thoughts as being right. First off everyone is entitled to there own opinions. You are not to judge someone for what they do or dont agree with. I have read closely your posts and I watch as you look for the oppertunity to blast someone! You yourself , all of them, and I are ALL created equal. NO ONE is less than ANYONE here. You should respect peoples posting more than to comment such rude remarks just because they feel that way. AND TALKING IN CAPS is a indicator you want something to be noticed.... Try thinking more positive about people. Even if you dont agree with what they post you still should respect them. :confused: :confused:


She starts calling me names right off, do you think this is justified just because someone is disagreeing?

Most of what I have said is being ignored.

Here you go NJean She says I am the ugliest rude person she has ever read She says she has read closely to my posts, thats a lie she never said anything to me when I was finding things that supported her. I dont see anyone coming to my defence??? saying someone is ugly and rude is something I NEVER said to her, thats just mean..

If I am so mean why would I put this post aside and thank her for a great post in the religious section. I knew who it was but it didnt matter because I can disagree with someone and as soon as I leave the thread its forgotten...

[Njean31]

But your implying noone has seen and I HAVE and I believe tngirl has also had some dealing with this....I might be mistaken on this but I will look

Njean you are a sweet person but take up for someone because they are right not because you think everyone is out to get her because were not...Please look at the post when I was doing some research fo my own and she ignored me completely but If I say something she doesnt like she is all over us...I understand what you are saying!! ok? I know some people just put things in the back of thier mind where its out of sight out of mind but thats not what happened here...

i'm sorry she ignored your posts. maybe she can answer why she didn't remark on them, i have no clue. it appeared to me from the beginning that everyone was upset over the pics.......and everything went down from there.

[Bubblescc]

i'm sorry she ignored your posts. maybe she can answer why she didn't remark on them, i have no clue. it appeared to me from the beginning that everyone was upset over the pics.......and everything went down from there.

I know and you are a sweet person! You took up for me in a post before and I never forgot it but I also dont need to be defended because I am comfortable explaining my position..The reason i never forgot is because its nice to know someone out there understands. But now I wonder if you weren just taking up for me because I was the underdog and noone liked what I had to say and not because you actually agreed with me..Theres a huge difference... OH WELL! LOL Have a nice day Njean even though I guess I am the meanest ugliest person in the world! ;)

[Jolie Rouge]

I guess I am the meanest ugliest person in the world


No - that is my title ... LOL Devine seems to pick and choose what she reads and replies to; sometimes it is funny when people do that. What they ignore says even more then what they answer.

[nightrider127]

it appeared to me from the beginning that everyone was upset over the pics.......and everything went down from there.

That was exactly what upset me. I haven't said anything about it up till this point.

We all have a right to pick and choose what we want to look at. Those pictures took that right away. They should have been in links.

Oh and I did report the post for having graphic photos that was not fit for especially kids to view.

[Njean31]

I know and you are a sweet person! You took up for me in a post before and I never forgot it but I also dont need to be defended because I am comfortable explaining my position..The reason i never forgot is because its nice to know someone out there understands. But now I wonder if you weren just taking up for me because I was the underdog and noone liked what I had to say and not because you actually agreed with me..Theres a huge difference... OH WELL! LOL Have a nice day Njean even though I guess I am the meanest ugliest person in the world! ;)


i don't remember what i defended you on but whatever it was i must have agreed with you cause i wouldn't have done it just cause you were the underdog. there has been lots of "underdogs" on here and i sure would be busy if that was the case. and you are not the meanest ugliest person in the world, trust me ;)

[Devine]

I did notice it in fact I remember you saying somthing like well, if anything you got me interested and looking into it. And you posted several links up for people. I thought to myself maybe you were starting to see what I was tring to say to start with. Then the others come on and say things and you get stired up again on that same day and I was tired of tring to explain the same thing over and over.

I also remember nightrider127 saying that.

What I failed to ask, and I dont know why, but what did you find gorey about those 3 pictures? One showed a lil dog behind cage bars with a sad face, one was a crate full of dogs, the other was a picture of a dog with 2 heads. And animals are born with 2 things sometimes I seen pigs with 2 heads before as well. But none of those pictures were bloody. Thats why I said they were "G" rated compared to what really goes on. Thats what made me completely stuned. Also if its that sad to you about these dogs and animals being tested and chopped up, why would you ignore it. One voice as I have here spreads like this... Imagine 2 3 4 5 people and what they can do... My whole point of this whole thing was to share my heart with you all on how it breaks my heart! Instead you bashed me and dont say you didnt, you started going on about Peta and I was like omg Peta was NOT my intentions. Then I posted another link that was not peta. THE whole time I have been trying to prove my innocence to you when its ABOUT THE ANIMALS!

Njean sees exactly what I been tring to say. The others that respond are the same ones. I BET you if everyone spoke up( like they are afraid to do, because like Njean. you bash them for there insite) you would be surprised. Most people dont want to deal with your negative attitudes. This place is to vent and tell whats on your mind. People here can not even do that if they wanted to fear of being rejected and put to shame for just how they felt!

Its pathetic how you all act. I praise Njean for not backing down. Anyways, besides everything you have made this post to be about, it all comes down to the animals! And thats it!!! Thats what I wanted to share with you all and you amazingly turned it all around and had fun with it in every way possible and thats truely sad.

[Bubblescc]

i don't remember what i defended you on but whatever it was i must have agreed with you cause i wouldn't have done it just cause you were the underdog. there has been lots of "underdogs" on here and i sure would be busy if that was the case. and you are not the meanest ugliest person in the world, trust me ;)


LOL :D Thanks!

[Bubblescc]

No - that is my title ... LOL Devine seems to pick and choose what she reads and replies to; sometimes it is funny when people do that. What they ignore says even more then what they answer.

maybe we better start a club then!!! ;) lol

[Bubblescc]

Devine you said you dont have children and maybe thats why you dont understand why noone wanted the pics on the site... It would be difficult to explain something like that to a child. My computer is in my living room where all can see and maybe other peoples are the same thats why nightrider was upset among others because anyone can access this site and see that.....I had no problem seeing them but would have rather been able to click the link and tell my children to turn thier heads for a moment so theres the explanation for that......which others have already said

[Bubblescc]

According to the Center for Consumer Freedom, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) has donated at least $70,000 from its tax-exempt coffers to the ALF.

If this is the case, then we are not talking about "one or two bad apples" - this is not an over eager or misguided student. This is decision making at the highest levels.
this was posted by Jolie showing a link between Alf and peta, if there is another link that has nothing to do with these groups PLEASE point it out and I will be happy to look....

[Bubblescc]

I did notice it in fact I remember you saying somthing like well, if anything you got me interested and looking into it. And you posted several links up for people. I thought to myself maybe you were starting to see what I was tring to say to start with. Then the others come on and say things and you get stired up again on that same day and I was tired of tring to explain the same thing over and over.

.


just so you know I didnt get srirred up by what anybody else said, its easy to see in my post what stirred me up. I shouldnt be called the meanest ugliest person for my statements. You labeled me and thats what upset me, because I didnt agree with the first post you ignored me unless I said something that you didnt like. Thats why I got stirred up again...

there are many points in the posts made that you chose to ignore and I am not the only one that sees this.

In one of my posts I even said if anyone is interested I will post the links and YOU werent even interested in my findings. Guess it only interests you if you find it, or post it...

[Devine]

omg Bubblescc

please you want stop you keep going on and on about this. Please stop! PLEASE :(

[Bubblescc]

omg Bubblescc

please you want stop you keep going on and on about this. Please stop! PLEASE :(
Only one post was directed at you the others I was commenting to others.. You asked questions and I answered them...You asked what was offensive about the pics so I told you.. I am sorry did you not want an answer? :eek:

I am still upset for what you called me so I think you should stop, IF you dont like what someone says ignore them like you did me all those time. ;) I really think you owe me an aplogy for calling me names like that in your post and dont worry I know I wont get one..

I am not doing anything what do you want me to stop?

[Bubblescc]

Njean,

I thank you for that.

[QUOTE=Bubblescc] WOW she didnt bring into light anything!!! WE ALL KNOW THIS!!!!! Get OFF your high horse for a change and actually READ the posts!!!! WHY should there be a side!!![QUOTE]

The post was not created just for you Queeny :eek: , but for everyone including people that may had appreciated this posting. Its rude to put a person down with a comment like that and I find it very disgusting. You have got to be the most ugliest rude person I have ever read of. Your postings like this one say to me that you see your thoughts as being right. First off everyone is entitled to there own opinions. You are not to judge someone for what they do or dont agree with. I have read closely your posts and I watch as you look for the oppertunity to blast someone! You yourself , all of them, and I are ALL created equal. NO ONE is less than ANYONE here. You should respect peoples posting more than to comment such rude remarks just because they feel that way. AND TALKING IN CAPS is a indicator you want something to be noticed.... Try thinking more positive about people. Even if you dont agree with what they post you still should respect them. :confused: :confused:
Just look how rude and disrespectful you were to me?? First you call me Queeny, rude , discusting, ugly and you dont even know me... You tell me to think more positive about people right after you bash me......TOO FUNNY!

you took this to a whole new level of namecalling and you tell me to stop.... :mad:

And I find it funny that when I was told to imagine my children dying you didnt think there was anything wrong with that(Njean just an examople I know you said you were sorry!! ;) ) but you find fault with what I say...

and in your post you stated that I posted something on the same day they were two days apart...thats what I mean about not paying attention to what people are saying or when they say it...

[tngirl]

Okay, I have NOT bashed anyone in this thread. If stating my opinion is considered bashing just because it differs from someone else's, so be it. Besides asking what Bible Devine had been reading, my other post in this thread have been in "defense" of remarks that Devine directed at my responses.

But for someone to sit there and call people names over their opinions and then to act like the "victim" is laughable. As for Bubblescc going on and on? She is only defending herself against the name calling. If I am not mistaken, and I could be, there is not too much that me and Bubblescc agree on....that actually goes for me and most people on this board. I have been at the end of the name calling on more than one occasion, except I find it funny when someone one has to stoop to name calling. I consider if they have to stoop to that then I have won the argument :D

Personally, I could really care less about how well liked or disliked that I am here....there are only a couple of people that come here that actually know anything about me (and you guys know I love ya! :D ). The funny thing about those people....we disagree a lot on a lot of issues....one friend is the total opposite of me. I don't have to agree with you to like you and I don't have to like you to agree with you. I AM NOT SAYING THAT I DISLIKE ANYONE ON THIS BOARD. What I am saying is BIG DEAL! if someone disagrees with you....it is no reason to cross the line and start the name calling....no matter who it is.

[tngirl]

No - that is my title ... LOL Devine seems to pick and choose what she reads and replies to; sometimes it is funny when people do that. What they ignore says even more then what they answer.

HEY!! Don't even think about trying to steal my crown, young lady!!! :mad:

[Jolie Rouge]

My whole point of this whole thing was to share my heart with you all on how it breaks my heart! Instead you bashed me and dont say you didnt, you started going on about Peta and I was like omg Peta was NOT my intentions.

You used PETA materials in your first post - not a crediable source to most of us here.


It is kinda silly to be carrying on about how cruel the meat industry is while snacking on chicken strips - an opinion appearently shared by many -and rather undermines your passion on the topic. And - clearly few here have reservations about speaking their minds on any subject.

[Jolie Rouge]

(runs to hide crown from Bubbles and tngirl ) :bolt:

[Devine]

Hello everyone, :)

Jolie Rouge,

No, I used the video links that peta has! Many other Non-Peta sites also have the SAME videos. I choose those cause they give you several different video player options to choose from.
You must love to start things to.
I said this whole post had to do with what main concern? ( NOT ONLY MEAT)

ANSWER THIS QUESTION AND RECEIVE A FREEBIE FROM ME!!! ( A NICE ONE)

If you get what I have been tring to say in this whole thing, than you have one nice prize awaiting for you. (I will ship it free too)! The smart ass comments are done with ;) . Once someone answers what this whole post is REALLY about, then they will receive the freebie from me. It will be my many thanks for seeing what I really meant. Ok I will even start getting this HUGE package ready for the winner! :D :D :D

[catssass]

You post was about the suffering of animals caused by human hands for testing and other purposes and you wanted to educate people to this because it upsets you...

[Devine]

THANK YOU! catssass

You are the winner. :p :p :p :p :p

Can you email me with your shipping address please so I can ship this to you.

Thanks :cool:

[Chiizii]

It is kinda silly to be carrying on about how cruel the meat industry is while snacking on chicken strips - an opinion apparently shared by many -and rather undermines your passion on the topic. And - clearly few here have reservations about speaking their minds on any subject.


Let me speak my mind, while I enjoy my turkey sandwich. I think some of those animal activist are quite silly. I think they put human feelings upon creatures that have very small brains and are not that intelligent. I am sure that most who choose to use what common sense they have know and understand that the so call cruelty to animals is only a limited group of people that have been used to represent the whole of the meat industry. Pretty goofy to me.

I think PETA and similar groups use their own people to abuse animals then film it to make their claims.

Now, for those who are passionate about doing something about animal abuse, why not take some of that passion and work to shut down puppy mills and cat mills. Many of you live in states where there is a very high number of mills.

That is one of the things I do to fight against animal abuse. I also have taken two cats and two dogs right off the street and made them my own companions. I also pick up strays, house them in a pen in my back yard, nurse them back to health if it is possible. Sometimes it isn't possible for me to take care of the strays myself, due to my birth defect, that is when l take them to a no kill shelter. I donate to the local shelter and the ASPCA. I know that my actions are not big but I am only one person doing what they can to help.

Now if there were more people like me maybe in the state I live in we could do more to rescue and save dogs/cats/others from living in the harsh environments of a mill.

Now back to your debate.

[catssass]

I sent you an e-mail and THANKS!!

...also I have to say I am PROUD of you for taking a stand in your beliefs and having the courage to share them, whether a person agrees with you or not, you have the right to state them, this is exactly why we live in AMERICA...

[Njean31]

I think PETA and similar groups use their own people to abuse animals then film it to make their claims.



why would they do that? i don't know much about peta because i don't want to see the "reality" of things i can't do nothing about, but what would they get out of it? money? donations? i don't understand why everyone on here hates peta...granted i have never researched them or even looked at their literature because as i said before, it is disturbing to me.

[tngirl]

Chiizii, this is why my house is known as the ghetto zoo. We rescue animals and take care of them. We may not stand up to some's standards because I honestly do not have the money to have shots and have them all fixed. Even though I work for vet, the expense is too much. Sometimes we find home for the critters and sometimes we don't. No way will I take them to the shelter though because I know they will be euthanized.

Devine, EVERYBODY gets what this thread is about....you just don't get what other's points are. As for being smart assed? I have been accused of that by a lot of people. :D So one more person doesn't bother me one iota :eek: NO ONE in this thread has been mean, rude or hateful to you. If you believe this, you definitely need to go read a lot of the old post. As for Jolie liking to start stuff? Because she shares her viewpoint or answers a question, you consider this starting something? I guess we are all guilty then :p

[tngirl]

why would they do that? i don't know much about peta because i don't want to see the "reality" of things i can't do nothing about, but what would they get out of it? money? donations? i don't understand why everyone on here hates peta...granted i have never researched them or even looked at their literature because as i said before, it is disturbing to me.

Njean, I do not hate PETA. I just have a problem with people that believe using violence and distruction of private property a just means to getting their point across. I also object to organizations such as PETA or Greenpeace that are guilty of what they are protesting against. I just don't believe in zealists (sp?)....they tend to go too far and cross the line more times than not. They are hypocritical in my eyes.

[tngirl]

Njean!! I just realized something!! :eek: We are disagreeing again!! Wow!! :D

[nightrider127]

g


I also remember nightrider127 saying that.




Care to elaborate on exactly what the nightrider said? I have replied to this a total of 3 times. The first time I thanked Lassss for taking care of the picture. I know I am not the only one who reported that post. If I had been, the pictures would still be there.

The second time was when I thanked someone for posting something I agreed with.

The third time was when I quoted part of another members post. Those pictures did upset me. They were way too graphic. While I don't have kids at home, I do ocassionally have kids around here. And yes, they have been known to be sitting on my lap while I am at this site. So what if they can't read, they can see the pictures. I am sure there is other moms, dads, grandmaws, grandpaws, aunts and uncles who come to this site with children sitting on their laps too when they visit the site.

So please, do tell what the nightrider said about whatever "that" means.

[cavemtmomma]

I notice over on the freebie forum you have a post for things from Hartz Mt. I have worked in the animal industry for 28 years, one of the first things I learned is NEVER use any Hartz mt. products:Hartz Mountain withdraws cat flea, tick medicine
By Elizabeth Weise, USA TODAY
After at least 7,000 reports of injury and possibly 12 deaths in cats and kittens over three years, the Environmental Protection Agency has reached an agreement with Hartz Mountain company to phase out sales of two flea and tick products for cats containing phenothrin.

The products, Hartz Advanced Care 4 in 1 Flea and Tick Drops Plus for Cats and Hartz Advanced Care 3 in 1 Flea and Tick Drops for Cats, will still be sold in retail outlets through March 31, 2006.

The Hartz drops are one of several formulations of new flea and tick repellents. Called "spot-on" repellents, they have largely replaced the old-fashioned flea collar in the past 10 years. A few drops of the chemical are touched to the back of the cat or kitten's neck, where the chemical is absorbed into the skin, providing a systemic repellent for up to a month.

Adverse reports began to arrive at EPA headquarters in 2001, shortly after Hartz changed the formulation of the products to include 87% phenothrin, a potent pesticide. Only a few other tick and flea products use phenothrin, and all at concentrations of less than 10%, says Jim Jones, director of EPA's Office of Pesticide Programs.

Symptoms in the affected animals included skin irritation, hair loss, effects on the nervous system, tremors, convulsions and, in a very few cases, death, Jones says.
What to do
The EPA says the products being phased out shouldn't be used on cats under 6 pounds, older than 13 years or under 5 months old. If symptoms occur, bathe the cat with mild soap, rinse with lots of water and consult a veterinarian.

In 2002, the EPA asked Hartz to re-label the product to ensure that it was being used correctly.

"But we didn't see any meaningful change in the profile of what appears to be happening to cats that used this product," Jones says. "So in January, we told the company that something far more meaningful was going to have to be done."

The EPA and Hartz announced on Friday that Hartz would stop selling the product by Dec. 31 and that by March 31, 2006, it would be off store shelves entirely.

John Mullane, a spokesman for Hartz, says the 7,000 reports were "a very small number compared to the number of applications."

Hartz, which sells more than 1,500 pet products, has not been able to verify any cat deaths related to the product, Mullane says.

"We feel there is an adequate margin of safety for this product," he says. "But there's no question that cats can show a sensitivity to the product."

Numerous Web sites and Internet discussion groups are devoted to cat owners who say their animals were injured or even died after the Hartz products were used.

The status of a class-action lawsuit filed by several cat owners in New York in 2001 because of injuries their cats suffered, which sought to ban the products, is unclear.

Shelly Rubin, chief of staff at Blum Animal Hospital in Chicago and a spokesman for the American Veterinary Medical Association, says he's not surprised to hear of the withdrawal.

"There have been a number of cases of toxicity from this particular product," he says. "The bottom line is when you're using a pesticide, it's always important to discuss with a veterinarian what the effects might be."

[tngirl]

g


Care to elaborate on exactly what the nightrider said? I have replied to this a total of 3 times. The first time I thanked Lassss for taking care of the picture. I know I am not the only one who reported that post. If I had been, the pictures would still be there.

The second time was when I thanked someone for posting something I agreed with.

The third time was when I quoted part of another members post. Those pictures did upset me. They were way too graphic. While I don't have kids at home, I do ocassionally have kids around here. And yes, they have been known to be sitting on my lap while I am at this site. So what if they can't read, they can see the pictures. I am sure there is other moms, dads, grandmaws, grandpaws, aunts and uncles who come to this site with children sitting on their laps too when they visit the site.

So please, do tell what the nightrider said about whatever "that" means.

hey nightrider, I was shaking my head at that one too. I couldn't figure out how she thought you were agreeing with her either. And I am also one of those that reported the pictures. The first was not just a dog in a cage, it was an obviously injured animal.

[Devine]

That is one of the things I do to fight against animal abuse. I also have taken two cats and two dogs right off the street and made them my own companions. I also pick up strays, house them in a pen in my back yard, nurse them back to health if it is possible. Sometimes it isn't possible for me to take care of the strays myself, due to my birth defect, that is when l take them to a no kill shelter. I donate to the local shelter and the ASPCA. I know that my actions are not big but I am only one person doing what they can to help.

Now if there were more people like me maybe in the state I live in we could do more to rescue and save dogs/cats/others from living in the harsh environments of a mill.

Now back to your debate.

I am so happy to hear this. Just like you said "I am only one person doing what they can to help" I Feel The Same Way! Thank you. I thought I posted a puppy mill video link in my first first? If I didn't I meant to. I will have to go see. I also rescue animals. I take in strays, and will not turn them over to local animal control because they will just be gasses to there death. Its not there faults someone did not want them. They live, breathe and feel to.
As far as Peta, that would be just dumb of them to do such a thing. I know they also caught some puppy mills and closed them down and the dogs/puppies found homes. If thats fake then thats really good! lol Thank you for your post. :) God Bless

[Devine]

I sent you an e-mail and THANKS!!

...also I have to say I am PROUD of you for taking a stand in your beliefs and having the courage to share them, whether a person agrees with you or not, you have the right to state them, this is exactly why we live in AMERICA...

Thank You :o I will speak for all the animals that cant speak for themselves,untill the day God takes me on to be with him. :)

[Devine]

Chiizii, this is why my house is known as the ghetto zoo. We rescue animals and take care of them. We may not stand up to some's standards because I honestly do not have the money to have shots and have them all fixed. Even though I work for vet, the expense is too much. Sometimes we find home for the critters and sometimes we don't. No way will I take them to the shelter though because I know they will be euthanized.

:) I like the name Ghetto Zoo. Its unique ;) :D

[Devine]

So please, do tell what the nightrider said about whatever "that" means.

I was saying in response to there most recent post that I remembered them saying about the pictures not being good for kids to see and also that they asked for it to be removed. Thats what I meant. :)

[Devine]

The first was not just a dog in a cage, it was an obviously injured animal.
This is that picture of that dog. For those that did not see it. If you want to see him, look at his eyes, there is your reason and what motivates me to spread the message. I will speak for him. He later dies.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/dog-res-02.jpg
Yes, in fact his leg had been purposely shattered to see how an animal reacts to pain and suffering. How stupid is that experiment. Duh animals feel to. Its sad the things they do. Oh and he was not bleeding his leg was just broke and he had a sad face. I wish you all would be able to handle some real pictures I had. You would change your mind and I bet most of you would delete your posts. I am that positive. It would wake you up.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/KITTEN1.jpg
If you wish to see what happens next to this kitten email me.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/alert_WW06202.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/popupe01.jpg

[jdfan]

Let me get this right! Devine is upset about the unethical treatment of animals. OK! Devine posted links! Ok! Devine, and yes I saw them, posted graphic pictures. NOT OK! I tried to read all the posts in this thread and most of it is PETA regurgitated propaganda. Imagine if PETA cared about the ethical treatment of children in the US. If children could be treated properly then they wouldn't grow up abusing animals. Some of us take those small steps to help animals and people. Some of us have worked with and killed our own meat. Next thing you know is you have to be careful about how you harvest your vegetables for fear of wounding them. Some good points have been made regarding educating others but other points are made mute by the childish manner in which they were posted. The first thing about being an educator, is to be educated, then learning how to teach others. Most of the posts are because someone can't admit they were wrong in posting graphic, "shock" effect pictures. What else can be said?

[tngirl]

Devine, these are not the pictures that you posted in the thread that we reported of the graphic photos.

[Devine]

Devine, these are not the pictures that you posted in the thread that we reported of the graphic photos.

No I only talked about that dog you were talking about so therefore I posted the link of it. The other pictures are just poster type. I can post the links to the other photos as well. In fact I will do that here.

This is the picture of the puppies in the crate at the Chinese meat market. Its not gorey. Gorey would be the next part of these dogs. /cry
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/image0000001249.jpg

This isthat pic of the 2 headed (non gorey) dog that walked around with another dogs head on his because they wanted to prove they could do it was all the reason it was done for.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/dog-res-26.jpg

[Devine]

If children could be treated properly then they wouldn't grow up abusing animals. Some of us take those small steps to help animals and people.

I agree with this. My heart is just as big for children and adult that suffer daily.

My son is autistic. He is only 6 years old. I have post on it to, just not on this site. :)

[Devine]

A few of my rescued buddies: :p


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/Jan_01_003.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/Jan_01_002.jpg


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/marinewife.gif

[tngirl]

Yes Devine, you did post the picture of the little dog that you "desribed". You posted 3 pictures, the 2 headed dog, the cage with a bunch of dogs in it and the injured dog in the cage. You can "argue" that point, but the majority of us saw the pictures before they were removed. But you know what? Don't even bother replying, or you can say what you want, because I am finished with this thread. I think it is hilarious how you insult people and when they reply you come back and act all innocent and the injured party.

The only thing that would warrant a reply on my part would be if you were to opening insult me again, call me a name or in any way defame me. It just isn't in my nature to let those little things just slide by. :D

[Devine]

lol Did you see this? :confused:



No I only talked about that dog you were talking about so therefore I posted the link of it. The other pictures are just poster type. I can post the links to the other photos as well. In fact I will do that here.

This is the picture of the puppies in the crate at the Chinese meat market. Its not gorey. Gorey would be the next part of these dogs. /cry
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/image0000001249.jpg

This isthat pic of the 2 headed (non gorey) dog that walked around with another dogs head on his because they wanted to prove they could do it was all the reason it was done for.
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/dog-res-26.jpg

[Jolie Rouge]

Hello everyone, :)

Jolie Rouge,

No, I used the video links that peta has! Many other Non-Peta sites also have the SAME videos. I choose those cause they give you several different video player options to choose from.


But you CHOOSE the Peta site to present the clips & photos *not* any of the other sites



You must love to start things to.

I :love: the recognition implied in your use of the word "TOO" LOL




I said this whole post had to do with what main concern? ( NOT ONLY MEAT)


In general or in specific ? You "SAID" cruelty to animals ... but this thread has danced all over the map. Who brought up slaughter houses and chicken processing plants ? How did we get into animal testing ? Did anyone mention puppy mills ?

[quote]The smart ass comments are done with ;) . [quote]


Here ?? Never ...

[Devine]

I like you because you save animals to. I think your a cool chic. I really like the ghetto zoo name. This is your post just as it is mine. You can post anything you want. As well as anyone else. Its what its here for. ;)

Yes Devine, you did post the picture of the little dog that you "desribed". You posted 3 pictures, the 2 headed dog, the cage with a bunch of dogs in it and the injured dog in the cage. You can "argue" that point, but the majority of us saw the pictures before they were removed. But you know what? Don't even bother replying, or you can say what you want, because I am finished with this thread. I think it is hilarious how you insult people and when they reply you come back and act all innocent and the injured party.

The only thing that would warrant a reply on my part would be if you were to opening insult me again, call me a name or in any way defame me. It just isn't in my nature to let those little things just slide by. :D

[Devine]

Because it offered different types of video players to watch the them lol. :)


But you CHOOSE the Peta site to present the clips & photos *not* any of the other sites




I :love: the recognition implied in your use of the word "TOO" LOL






In general or in specific ? You "SAID" cruelty to animals ... but this thread has danced all over the map. Who brought up slaughter houses and chicken processing plants ? How did we get into animal testing ? Did anyone mention puppy mills ?

[quote]The smart ass comments are done with ;) . [quote]


Here ?? Never ...

[Njean31]

Njean, I do not hate PETA. I just have a problem with people that believe using violence and distruction of private property a just means to getting their point across. I also object to organizations such as PETA or Greenpeace that are guilty of what they are protesting against. I just don't believe in zealists (sp?)....they tend to go too far and cross the line more times than not. They are hypocritical in my eyes.

i honestly do not understand why they would go to such great lengths as those things you mentioned. are they for profit? do they get a prize for gathering members? if it's true, then it's really sad that the one and only organization i've heard of against cruelty to animals is corrupt.

[Bubblescc]

Chiizii, this is why my house is known as the ghetto zoo. We rescue animals and take care of them. We may not stand up to some's standards because I honestly do not have the money to have shots and have them all fixed. Even though I work for vet, the expense is too much. Sometimes we find home for the critters and sometimes we don't. No way will I take them to the shelter though because I know they will be euthanized.



See something else we agree on, I wont take an animal to the shelter for that same reason!


I take in a lot of animals myself,lol

I have 1 dog named brownsugar that my mom gave me, the dog is getting old and it makes me sad.. :( ..She still plays alittle with me
and the kids.

3 kitties used to have 4
Luna passed away a while ago, dont even know what happened. I found her in a walmart parking lot. She was trying to get in
and an employee kept kicking her out the door :eek: . I gave him a piece of my mind and took her home with me.

then came oreo and gaz

Artimus I found in a Kroger parking lot, I think someone just drove through the parking lot and left him...So mean!
I took him home too..!lol

1 ferrat the people were moving to another state and couldnt take her. I couldnt believe I was so lucky to get her.
Just like a kitten so fun!

1 rat that my son saved(runs in the family, lol) from being a feeder for a snake.

1 bunny that we saved from going to a shelter she is so pretty!

I cant imagine not having my critters!lol

[Chiizii]

I sent you an e-mail and THANKS!!

...also I have to say I am PROUD of you for taking a stand in your beliefs and having the courage to share them, whether a person agrees with you or not, you have the right to state them, this is exactly why we live in AMERICA...

Your words mean a lot to me. A long time ago I found out that I was not put on the face of this earth for everyone to like, agree with or even love. I feel that I have a responsibility in the wee, minuscule corner of the world I live in. My mother has said often that I have a way with dogs and cats and that this might be a gift. Well, if my Momma said so then it has to be true...*giggles*.


why would they do that? i don't know much about peta because i don't want to see the "reality" of things i can't do nothing about, but what would they get out of it? money? donations? i don't understand why everyone on here hates peta...granted i have never researched them or even looked at their literature because as i said before, it is disturbing to me.

Back on page one of this thread I left some links that can get you started on some research into the "dark side" of PETA. Check them out when you have time.

With that being said, I will admit that when I first found out about PETA I thought, "TERRIFIC"! A group that is interested in stopping some of the torture that those stupid people inflict upon animals." WELL, was I ever wrong. After reading what some of the top leaders believe about animals, humans and their relationship upon the earth, I ran as fast as I could to my PC and started looking around.

What I wrote about thinking they manufacture these torture taps is nothing more than a personal opinion. After the big KFC shout-out by PETA it just seemed to me that these PETA people will do anything to support their own beliefs.

One more thing, I don't tread upon other cultures and their eating habits. I have eaten several animals and bugs that most Americans would never touch. WHY? Because it would of insulted the people that invited me to their table. With the exception of the worms/grasshoppers/ants and other crawly things, I didn't know I was eating something different than the standard meats most of us eat.

[Njean31]

Your words mean a lot to me. A long time ago I found out that I was not put on the face of this earth for everyone to like, agree with or even love. I feel that I have a responsibility in the wee, minuscule corner of the world I live in. My mother has said often that I have a way with dogs and cats and that this might be a gift. Well, if my Momma said so then it has to be true...*giggles*.



Back on page one of this thread I left some links that can get you started on some research into the "dark side" of PETA. Check them out when you have time.

With that being said, I will admit that when I first found out about PETA I thought, "TERRIFIC"! A group that is interested in stopping some of the torture that those stupid people inflict upon animals." WELL, was I ever wrong. After reading what some of the top leaders believe about animals, humans and their relationship upon the earth, I ran as fast as I could to my PC and started looking around.

What I wrote about thinking they manufacture these torture taps is nothing more than a personal opinion. After the big KFC shout-out by PETA it just seemed to me that these PETA people will do anything to support their own beliefs.

One more thing, I don't tread upon other cultures and their eating habits. I have eaten several animals and bugs that most Americans would never touch. WHY? Because it would of insulted the people that invited me to their table. With the exception of the worms/grasshoppers/ants and other crawly things, I didn't know I was eating something different than the standard meats most of us eat.


i'll check those links out when i get the time. thanks

[Bubblescc]

i'll check those links out when i get the time. thanks


Jewel posted alot on page 7 I think pretty good stuff..

[cavemtmomma]

Thank You :o I will speak for all the animals that cant speak for themselves,untill the day God takes me on to be with him. :)
You were told yesterday afternoon (Friday) about how to edit your post about Hartz Mt. in the freebie forum. You still have not done so. I guess you "speak for all the animals that cannot speakfor themselves" only when its convienent.

[Bubblescc]

http://www.pedigree.com/ptr/2006/default.asp?CSID=475

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[Devine]

:( Sorry I have not replied but I have not been feeling well. Someone had dropped a puppy off where I live (which is in the country with lots of woods) and I have been taking care of her now for almost 2 months. My landlord new about her. But he is not a nice man. I have fallen in love with this lil girl and she has became best friends with my dog Bear. Tonight the landlord knocked on the door and said if we keep her he will evict us. And that tomorrow mourning he will be calling the pound to come get her. Well I have been crying my eyes out all day. I want let the pound take her because they will put her to sleep. So this evening when our food was delivered to us, the lady asked why I was crying and I told her what happened and that I had to find Missy ( the puppy) a home or she will be put to sleep. She said she would love to take Missy and she said her little boys would love her. So knowing I had to save her, I had to let go of her and it has broken my heart into pieces. Everywhere I look I see her things and even Bear is confused where she is. I have cried all evening. I wish there was a way I could keep her. We live in the country surrounded by fields and woods. He is the most strangest landlord I hhave ever known. And very rude older man. I have fell in love with Missy and its hard for me right now. She slept with me everynight and when I was at my desk she would lay on my feet. I lost a good best friend today and I know right now she is probably crying because she does not understand why her surroundings have changed. That breaks my heart to. I miss her so much. :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/4cb782ff.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c59/EricaDillon/0c3c52f7.jpg

[catssass]

Awwww, I am so sorry...

[Jolie Rouge]

Animal Rights, Human Wrongs
By Iain Murray: 20 Apr 2006

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-news/1618536/posts






Our pet bunny died yesterday, the kids are devestated. We rescued him months ago, living out in the country people just dump their "unwanted" animals. Morons left a cage raised bunny out in the woods - she had no idea how to forage. She was so sick. We got her all healthy and happy, but I guess she was older then we knew ( it is hard to tell with bunnies ). The kids want another - I told them would would wait a few more weeks, people gave bunnies as Easter gifts and about June, when they are not cute and cuddly ( and start chewing on the furniture ) they will be wanting to get rid of them. We'll adopt one then.

[MnMLover]

Did this post really get so angry?Is it done now? The links are there,now the option is there.I didn't read EVERY page (and lemme tell you there's some GOOD readin on most of the posts all over the site) but I did get to about page 6.My opinion is yes some of the treatment is a bit extreme,yes there could be a more cruelty free option.But browbeating over horrible pictures and people accusing and defending (on EVERY side) for what...12,13 pages?
That's the beauty.Everyone has an opinion,they're like.....oh you know the saying.I like this board and enjoy it alot.Helps me unwind.Vent/whine,Gripe/moan why split hairs.Voicing opinions is good.Trying to make people feel small and ignorant is not.I like getting other's people's views but not if thier going to make me feel like crap or stupid for doing so.
The open pictures are gone,the system is cleansed.
There my ramble is over.

[catssass]

Hello everyone, :)

Jolie Rouge,

No, I used the video links that peta has! Many other Non-Peta sites also have the SAME videos. I choose those cause they give you several different video player options to choose from.
You must love to start things to.
I said this whole post had to do with what main concern? ( NOT ONLY MEAT)

ANSWER THIS QUESTION AND RECEIVE A FREEBIE FROM ME!!! ( A NICE ONE)

If you get what I have been tring to say in this whole thing, than you have one nice prize awaiting for you. (I will ship it free too)! The smart ass comments are done with ;) . Once someone answers what this whole post is REALLY about, then they will receive the freebie from me. It will be my many thanks for seeing what I really meant. Ok I will even start getting this HUGE package ready for the winner! :D :D :D


Divine, I PM'd you and have not heard from you...I am just trying to let you know, that if you sent a "prize", I have not received anything...I really don't care if you changed your mind but if you did send something, I want to let you know I haven't gotten it( I would really hate for you to be out of anything and things do happen)...Please let me know either way and if you changed your mind its OK, I'll certainly understand!! Thanks..Pam