U.S. Is Abusing Captives

[Surfergal]

February 13, 2006 latimes.com

Report: U.S. Is Abusing Captives
A U.N. inquiry says the treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay at times amounts to torture and violates international law.

By Maggie Farley, Times Staff Writer
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-gitmo13feb13,1,7252909.story?coll=la-headlines-nation&ctrack=1&cset=true

NEW YORK — A draft United Nations report on the detainees at Guantanamo Bay concludes that the U.S. treatment of them violates their rights to physical and mental health and, in some cases, constitutes torture.

It also urges the United States to close the military prison in Cuba and bring the captives to trial on U.S. territory, charging that Washington's justification for the continued detention is a distortion of international law.

The report, compiled by five U.N. envoys who interviewed former prisoners, detainees' lawyers and families, and U.S. officials, is the product of an 18-month investigation ordered by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. The team did not have access to prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.

Nonetheless, its findings — notably a conclusion that the violent force-feeding of hunger strikers, incidents of excessive violence used in transporting prisoners and combinations of interrogation techniques "must be assessed as amounting to torture" — are likely to stoke U.S. and international criticism of the prison.

Nearly 500 people captured abroad since 2002 in Afghanistan and elsewhere and described by the U.S. as "enemy combatants" are being held at Guantanamo Bay.

"We very, very carefully considered all of the arguments posed by the U.S. government," said Manfred Nowak, the U.N. special rapporteur on torture and one of the envoys. "There are no conclusions that are easily drawn. But we concluded that the situation in several areas violates international law and conventions on human rights and torture."

The draft report, reviewed by the Los Angeles Times, has not been officially released. U.N. officials are in the process of incorporating comments and clarifications from the U.S. government.

In November, the Bush administration offered the U.N. team the same tour of the prison given to journalists and members of Congress, but refused the envoys access to prisoners. Because of that, the U.N. group declined the visit.

Nowak said he did not expect major changes to the report's conclusions and recommendations as a result of the U.S. government's response, though there would be amendments on minor issues.

Navy Lt. Cmdr. J.D. Gordon, a spokesman for the Pentagon, said the Defense Department did not comment about U.N. matters.

The report is not legally binding. But human rights and legal advocates hope the U.N.'s conclusions will add weight to similar findings by rights groups and the European Parliament.

"I think the effect of this will be to revive concern about the government's mistreatment of detainees, and to get people to take another look at the legal basis," said Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch. "There are lots of lingering questions about how do you justify holding these people."

The report focuses on the U.S. government's legal basis for the detentions as described in its formal response to the U.N. inquiry: "The law of war allows the United States — and any other country engaged in combat — to hold enemy combatants without charges or access to counsel for the duration of hostilities. Detention is not an act of punishment, but of security and military necessity. It serves the purpose of preventing combatants from continuing to take up arms against the United States."

But the U.N. team concluded that there had been insufficient due process to determine whether the more than 750 people who had been detained at Guantanamo Bay since January 2002 were "enemy combatants," and determined that the primary purpose of their confinement was for interrogation, not to prevent them from taking up arms. The U.S. has released or transferred more than 260 detainees from Guantanamo Bay.

It also rejected the premise that "the war on terrorism" exempted the U.S. from international conventions on torture and civil and political rights.

The report said some of the treatment of detainees met the definition of torture under the U.N. Convention Against Torture: The acts were committed by government officials, with a clear purpose, inflicting severe pain or suffering against victims in a position of powerlessness.

The findings also concluded that the simultaneous use of several interrogation techniques — prolonged solitary confinement, exposure to extreme temperatures, noise and light; forced shaving and other techniques that exploit religious beliefs or cause intimidation and humiliation — constituted inhumane treatment and, in some cases, reached the threshold of torture.

Nowak said that the U.N. team was "particularly concerned" about the force-feeding of hunger strikers through nasal tubes that detainees said were brutally inserted and removed, causing intense pain, bleeding and vomiting.

"It remains a current phenomenon," Nowak said.

International Red Cross guidelines state: "Doctors should never be party to actual coercive feeding. Such actions can be considered a form of torture and under no circumstances should doctors participate in them on the pretext of saving the hunger striker's life."

[Chiizii]

The UN authors are psychic!


Authors of a report commissioned by the U.N. claiming that detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, are being tortured by American military personnel failed to visit the prison, despite an invitation from the American authorities

Read more (http://www.nysun.com/article/27653)

[tngirl]

I am just going to walk away from this thread. This is a subject that I think has been beaten to death already (no pun intended)

[Surfergal]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11381321/

"The experts have said they declined the invitation to visit the facility because the United States would not let them interview detainees.

The report’s findings were based on interviews with former detainees, public documents, media reports, lawyers and a questionnaire filled out by the U.S. government."

[mesue]

When the truth comes out we Americans will be ashamed of what has been done there.

[Bliss]

<~~~This American will not be ashamed. American's over there aren't being treated like Kings & Queens when they're captured.....As for the "truth" it will never be told. You will be told what the media thinks you want to hear. In most cases is not the whole truth.

[tngirl]

<~~~This American will not be ashamed. American's over there aren't being treated like Kings & Queens when they're captured.....As for the "truth" it will never be told. You will be told what the media thinks you want to hear. In most cases is not the whole truth.

I couldn't agree with you more. The concept of war is hard for some to grasp.

[stresseater]

:D
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11381321/

"The experts have said they declined the invitation to visit the facility because the United States would not let them interview detainees.

The report’s findings were based on interviews with former detainees, public documents, media reports, lawyers and a questionnaire filled out by the U.S. government."

OMGROFLMAO So basically this translates to we can't talk to the detainees(probably for security purposes) so instead of going and seeing the conditions and such with our own eyes. We will trust the people who are mad cause they were locked up to begin with, the press, the lawyers, and one sided questions on a form filled out by people in the government(who we don't trust ANY other time). Talk about making it up as you go. ;) ;)

[mesue]

I couldn't agree with you more. The concept of war is hard for some to grasp.
Oh please by all means give us your great knowledge of war.

[mesue]

<~~~This American will not be ashamed. American's over there aren't being treated like Kings & Queens when they're captured.....As for the "truth" it will never be told. You will be told what the media thinks you want to hear. In most cases is not the whole truth.
And have you looked anywhere besides corporate owned media for any news on the war?

[mesue]

:D

OMGROFLMAO So basically this translates to we can't talk to the detainees(probably for security purposes) so instead of going and seeing the conditions and such with our own eyes. We will trust the people who are mad cause they were locked up to begin with, the press, the lawyers, and one sided questions on a form filled out by people in the government(who we don't trust ANY other time). Talk about making it up as you go. ;) ;)
I would imagine even the U.N. knows that even a pigstye can be cleaned up to look presentable for their inspections.

If this were American POW's you would be wondering why the U.N. personnel could not speak with them, but since it isn't, you are even coming up with reasons on your own why they can't speak with them. Just remember, when the U.N. goes in to some prison somewhere in the world, and is not allowed to speak to the Amrican POW in the future its probably due to security reasons and that is perfectly accepable by you.

What goes around comes around and by what the rest of the world has seen from the likes of Abu Grahib and Guantanamo prisons there will be no public outcry from them for mercy or decent treatment for our own POW's in the future.

What some of you can't seem to understand is while you justify this babaric treatment of the so called enemy [no one has even been given a trial] you also justify it for our own POW's.

[Bliss]

And have you looked anywhere besides corporate owned media for any news on the war?


I don't get my information from "corporate owned media." :D

[excuseme]

LMAO, Gotta love those hawkish armchair generals.



Oh please by all means give us your great knowledge of war.

[jdfan]

Oh please by all means give us your great knowledge of war.

So we can assume that you have first hand knowledge of war? Have you ever served in the military? We are still learning facts about WWII. The UN? Aren't these the same people involved in the oil for food scandal?

[adorkablex]

It's really sad when the whole bad apple ruining the entire bunch happens, and I really hope this kind of thing can be stopped before that happens. Because if stuff like this continues to happen, a lot of people are going to start getting misguided views of soldiers.. One of my best friends in the entire world is in Iraq for the next 6 1/2 months and I would hate for people to start thinking any less of him and what he's doing because a group of people acted like (bleeping) idiots.

[adorkablex]

When the truth comes out we Americans will be ashamed of what has been done there.

I'm ashamed that a group of our soldiers have treated people in this manner, but I'm in no way ashamed of all of our soldiers as a whole...nor will I ever be. I know first hand that not every soldier is going to Iraq with the intentions of hurting/killing people. Some of them are genuinely trying to help these people.

[tngirl]

I'm ashamed that a group of our soldiers have treated people in this manner, but I'm in no way ashamed of all of our soldiers as a whole...nor will I ever be. I know first hand that not every soldier is going to Iraq with the intentions of hurting/killing people. Some of them are genuinely trying to help these people.

I will keep your friend in my thoughts and prayers. Some of our soldiers may have gone a bit far, but under the circumstances I would never be the one to judge them. I have never been in such a situation and I pray to never have to be. Before people want to bash our soldiers they need to stop and think for a moment about the message they are sending to the world.

[mesue]

I don't get my information from "corporate owned media." :D
Really where do you get your info from?

[mesue]

So we can assume that you have first hand knowledge of war? Have you ever served in the military? We are still learning facts about WWII. The UN? Aren't these the same people involved in the oil for food scandal?
I'm not the one defending this war nor am I making excuses for a President over his poor decision making concerning leading us into this war. I have argued over and over this war was wrong from day one of them even talking about going into Iraq.

No I have not served in the military but my husband did, the USMC. I was the wife left at home raising our chidren alone and wondering if he was going to make it back home. I'm also the niece of a former POW decorated war veteran and the niece of one war hero who came home in a flag draped coffin. I also stood by my daughter while she sent her hubby to Iraq.

[mesue]

I'm ashamed that a group of our soldiers have treated people in this manner, but I'm in no way ashamed of all of our soldiers as a whole...nor will I ever be. I know first hand that not every soldier is going to Iraq with the intentions of hurting/killing people. Some of them are genuinely trying to help these people.
I do not believe I said we should be ashamed of all the soldiers. But our government has sought to allow torture and IMO has allowed these kinds of things to happen.

When I said that, when the whole truth comes we will be ashamed ,I am speaking of the torture and prisons and the secret prisons where prisoners are reportedly, being tortured. I am speaking of detainees being held and tortured for long periods who have done nothing wrong. I am also speaking of the misery endured by the Iraqi people. The soldiers are simply pawns and disposable ones at that in this quest for oil and power and money.

[Bliss]

Really where do you get your info from?

I'll give you a hint - camo. (It's all I'm saying.)

[mesue]

I'll give you a hint - camo. (It's all I'm saying.)
Assuming you mean camoflage uniforms,then you definitely are getting a one sided view of this war. Have you looked at any websites setup to reveal the Iraqi civilian views on this war? Or would you view seeing the civilans there as real bleeding people treasonous or too painful?

[jdfan]

I'm not the one defending this war nor am I making excuses for a President over his poor decision making concerning leading us into this war. I have argued over and over this war was wrong from day one of them even talking about going into Iraq.

No I have not served in the military but my husband did, the USMC. I was the wife left at home raising our chidren alone and wondering if he was going to make it back home. I'm also the niece of a former POW decorated war veteran and the niece of one war hero who came home in a flag draped coffin. I also stood by my daughter while she sent her hubby to Iraq.

You assume that the rest of us have no military connections in our families and that we have no perception of war. Yet, war is always on the horizon. You have no reality of what is really going on in Iraq. You just find ways to degrade the US government because its not a democrat in office. When/if crime occurs in your neighborhood do you simply move away or do you find ways to deter the crime? Or because it isn't happening to YOU you ignore it and find it better to criticize those that are at least trying to make a difference in the world. Find a way to stop terrorism and crime without war. I am sure the rest of us would be willing to listen. You point out the alleged crimes of a few and assert it to the many. I had rather find a way to make the US a better place to live so that when these soldiers come home, they have a place to go instead of coming home to fight the crimes you feel more at ease criticizing verses finding resolve for.

[heartlvrs]

<~~~This American will not be ashamed. American's over there aren't being treated like Kings & Queens when they're captured.....As for the "truth" it will never be told. You will be told what the media thinks you want to hear. In most cases is not the whole truth.


As a US MARINE..ditto ditto DITTO

Besides WE arent beheading innocents either!

[Bliss]

Assuming you mean camoflage uniforms,then you definitely are getting a one sided view of this war. Have you looked at any websites setup to reveal the Iraqi civilian views on this war? Or would you view seeing the civilans there as real bleeding people treasonous or too painful?

Mesue ~ I would absolutely love to debate this issue with you until I'm blue in the face. But, I have better things to do with my time. No matter what I say, you will come back with something you found off the net claiming it all to be facts 'cause it was on the net. It's truly beyond pointless to debate an issue with someone who relies on information from the net/tv/newpapers without speaking to the one's who have actually seen it first hand.

You have your mind set to believe all the bs you read off the net without forming your own opinion.

[Bliss]

As a US MARINE..ditto ditto DITTO

Besides WE arent beheading innocents either!


So true! But, in a lot of peoples eyes, "Americans should be ashamed to be Americans." There has been more whining over pictures being taken than innocent Americans & others being beheaded..Go figure!

[tngirl]

There's a song that comes to mind....even though it is totally corney :D

"Proud To Be An American"

Nothing anyone says can change the fact that I am proud!! I am not ashamed of what our military and intelligence agencies have or will do in order to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.

As for the pictures, I just think it is a shame that they got caught.

[TexasGal]

As for the pictures, I just think it is a shame that they got caught.
:eek:

I'm proud to be an American. I'm also proud that I was taught right from wrong, ethics, and morals. :) Too bad everyone doesn't receive those lessons. :(

[tngirl]

:eek:

I'm proud to be an American. I'm also proud that I was taught right from wrong, ethics, and morals. :) Too bad everyone doesn't receive those lessons. :(

I surely don't think you are talking about me personally. :eek: I know right from wrong, I am very ethical and I try to have the highest of morals so I could be a good example for my children.

My statements have nothing to do with my personal life...so leave that out of it. My statements have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that these people have put their lives on the line and they need to do what they need to do in order to save the lives of their fellow military buddies and to keep us safe. When they start CUTTING OFF HEADS WITH DULL MACHETES , then I will say they have gone too far. Until then, I stand by my views and statements on the treatment of prisonors of WAR

[mesue]

You assume that the rest of us have no military connections in our families and that we have no perception of war. Yet, war is always on the horizon. You have no reality of what is really going on in Iraq. You just find ways to degrade the US government because its not a democrat in office. When/if crime occurs in your neighborhood do you simply move away or do you find ways to deter the crime? Or because it isn't happening to YOU you ignore it and find it better to criticize those that are at least trying to make a difference in the world. Find a way to stop terrorism and crime without war. I am sure the rest of us would be willing to listen. You point out the alleged crimes of a few and assert it to the many. I had rather find a way to make the US a better place to live so that when these soldiers come home, they have a place to go instead of coming home to fight the crimes you feel more at ease criticizing verses finding resolve for.
Lets get this straight I was not the one saying others have no concept of war because others don't agree with me.

[mesue]

Mesue ~ I would absolutely love to debate this issue with you until I'm blue in the face. But, I have better things to do with my time. No matter what I say, you will come back with something you found off the net claiming it all to be facts 'cause it was on the net. It's truly beyond pointless to debate an issue with someone who relies on information from the net/tv/newpapers without speaking to the one's who have actually seen it first hand.

You have your mind set to believe all the bs you read off the net without forming your own opinion.
Perhaps you missed the fact that my SIL was in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[tngirl]

Uncle "Toots" - Died WWII

Uncle Jack - Veteran WWII

John (father)- Disabled Korean War

Uncle Jim - Veteran WWII

Uncle James - Veteran Korean War

Cousin James - Veteran Vietnam War

Sister Wanda - Recently retired Air Force (26 yrs)

Nephew John - Recently out of Navy (out because Anthrax vaccine disabled him)

Nephew Chris - Army / Iraq and Afghanistan

Sister Sheila (aka jdfan) - former Army (Special Forces / Communications)

Niece Jamie - Looking into joining Air Force

My son and daughter both looked into joining military but neither could join due to medical conditions. I had joined the USAR, but did not follow through because I became pregnant with my daughter and could not leave her for such a long time right after her birth. I could only delay my AIT for one year.

Now I could go back even farther on the military history of my family. I actually have ancestors that served in the Revolutionary war and on both sides in the Civil War. Many of us have had and have loved ones involved in war. We are thankful for their service and their sacrifice for us.

[TexasGal]

I surely don't think you are talking about me personally. :eek: I know right from wrong, I am very ethical and I try to have the highest of morals so I could be a good example for my children.

My statements have nothing to do with my personal life...so leave that out of it. My statements have EVERYTHING to do with the fact that these people have put their lives on the line and they need to do what they need to do in order to save the lives of their fellow military buddies and to keep us safe. When they start CUTTING OFF HEADS WITH DULL MACHETES , then I will say they have gone too far. Until then, I stand by my views and statements on the treatment of prisonors of WAR

I don't know anything about you or your personal life and don't care to. I was simply responding to your statement.

Most of the prisoners over there have not been formally charged or had the benefit of a trial and yet you seem to believe that their treatment is justified. Yep, that's ethical. :rolleyes:

[tngirl]

I don't know anything about you or your personal life and don't care to. I was simply responding to your statement.

Most of the prisoners over there have not been formally charged or had the benefit of a trial and yet you seem to believe that their treatment is justified. Yep, that's ethical. :rolleyes:

There is no way you can say your remark was not a personal jab. And war is not ETHICAL

[tngirl]

I don't know anything about you or your personal life and don't care to. I was simply responding to your statement.

Most of the prisoners over there have not been formally charged or had the benefit of a trial and yet you seem to believe that their treatment is justified. Yep, that's ethical. :rolleyes:

Another thing, POW's do not usually get a trial and are not "charged" with anything. POW's are PRISONERS OF WAR and have been detained because of one reason or the other due to their involvement. POW's are normally held until the END of war.

[TexasGal]

So, it's perfectly alright with you if our POW's are treated this way?

[Bliss]

Perhaps you missed the fact that my SIL was in Iraq and Afghanistan.


You got me! I don't have time to read every single post/thread and memorize who's family members were here, there, done this that or didn't do.

I'm just going by what you post mostly, words/thoughts of others (links) never anything in your own words. I will admit the posts with links, I pass over them a majority of the time. I'd rather read someone's actual veiws on a topic than read some garbage they pulled off the net somewhere.

[tngirl]

So, it's perfectly alright with you if our POW's are treated this way?

Our POW's are treated a heck of a lot worse.

[heartlvrs]

Our POW's are treated a heck of a lot worse.


MUCH MUCH MUCH worse.!!!!!! ANyone who is naive enough to believe all the BAD media should hear from the horses mouths per se of all the GOOD we do....outweighs the bad and there are always "bad apples". NOW then, is it fair and just to kidnap innocents, behead them and TORTURE THEM>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! If AMerica is YOUR country be proud stand for it and SUPPORT IT!!! If you cant well...

[TexasGal]

Our POW's are treated a heck of a lot worse.


You didn't answer my question. Is it alright with you if our POW's are treated this way?

If you say it's okay for our military to do it, then essentially you're saying it's alright for them to treat our POW's this way.

[TexasGal]

MUCH MUCH MUCH worse.!!!!!! ANyone who is naive enough to believe all the BAD media should hear from the horses mouths per se of all the GOOD we do....outweighs the bad and there are always "bad apples". NOW then, is it fair and just to kidnap innocents, behead them and TORTURE THEM>>>NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! If AMerica is YOUR country be proud stand for it and SUPPORT IT!!! If you cant well...


I do support America and the soldiers that are over there risking their lives. I have talked to soldiers who have been to Iraq and have FAMILY there NOW. Just because I don't agree with the agenda does not mean that I don't support the soldiers or the country as a whole.

[Bliss]

Someone please explain to me, how you can support our soldiers but, you do not support what they're doing.

That statement make no sense to me whatsoever.

[tngirl]

You didn't answer my question. Is it alright with you if our POW's are treated this way?

If you say it's okay for our military to do it, then essentially you're saying it's alright for them to treat our POW's this way.

I believe I have answered your question. It is WAR, it is a shame that anyone is treated this way. We could be so lucky that our people would be treated the same as we treat the POW's in our custody.

What do you expect? A tea party?

[nightrider127]

Our POW's are treated a heck of a lot worse.

You better believe our POWs are treated much worse.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how the media could let the beheading of our people to recede into the background to report and whine about the way the people we are holding prisioner are being abused. At least they are alive and have their heads still attached to their bodies.

[tngirl]

You better believe our POWs are treated much worse.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how the media could let the beheading of our people to recede into the background to report and whine about the way the people we are holding prisioner are being abused. At least they are alive and have their heads still attached to their bodies.

Exactly!

[Bliss]

to report and whine about the way the people we are holding prisioner are being abused. At least they are alive and have their heads still attached to their bodies.

I think the media does it so people will feel sorry for the prisoners. Just like people felt sorry for Sadaam when they pulled his old arse out of a hole. People felt sorry for him because he was dirty, he looked homeless.....I really hate to say this, but, a majority of people are so damn stupid and gulible.

And, let's not forget to pity Bin Ladin for his declining health. The poor thing has to tug along a machine in the hot deserts. Aweeeeee....We must feel sorry for him and the rest of them who have no value on a human life.....Nevermind these men have killed thousands upon thousands of people......Whatever...I'll never feel sorry for any of them, not even the ones who were photographed.

[tngirl]

I think the media does it so people will feel sorry for the prisoners. Just like people felt sorry for Sadaam when they pulled his old arse out of a hole. People felt sorry for him because he was dirty, he looked homeless.....I really hate to say this, but, a majority of people are so damn stupid and gulible.

No you don't...lmao

[nightrider127]

I think the media does it so people will feel sorry for the prisoners. Just like people felt sorry for Sadaam when they pulled his old arse out of a hole. People felt sorry for him because he was dirty, he looked homeless.....I really hate to say this, but, a majority of people are so damn stupid and gulible.

And, let's not forget to pity Bin Ladin for his declining health. The poor thing has to tug along a machine in the hot deserts. Aweeeeee....We must feel sorry for him and the rest of them who have no value on a human life.....Nevermind these men have killed thousands upon thousands of people......Whatever...I'll never feel sorry for any of them, not even the ones who were photographed.

I just have to say that I love this post.

[TexasGal]

Someone please explain to me, how you can support our soldiers but, you do not support what they're doing.

That statement make no sense to me whatsoever.

Most of the soldiers in Iraq are there genuinely trying to make a difference and trying to leave Iraq a little better off than when they got there. Personally, I don't think it will happen, but they are there trying anyway, against great odds and I commend and support them in that.

I do however, disagree with the reasons that were given when the war started. I also disagree with some of the decisions that have been made since that time.

Hope that helps your understanding. :)

And no Tngirl, I don't expect a tea party....just because the insurgents act like barbarians doesn't mean we have to.

[heartlvrs]

I just have to say that I love this post.


Oh YEAH!! LMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bliss]

Thanks for answering the question TexasGal. =)

[mesue]

You got me! I don't have time to read every single post/thread and memorize who's family members were here, there, done this that or didn't do.

I'm just going by what you post mostly, words/thoughts of others (links) never anything in your own words. I will admit the posts with links, I pass over them a majority of the time. I'd rather read someone's actual veiws on a topic than read some garbage they pulled off the net somewhere.
The reason I posted that is to let you know that I have spoken with people who have been there.
And you obviously are confused again saying I never give my own opinions about things, most people here say I am too opinionated. And I do use my own words and thoughts on these matters. I do not post page after page of others work,again you are wrong. Once again you have me confused with someone else.

As for the detainees the pentagon study reveals 65% are farmers and students, they have committed no crimes but they are locked up for months and years and many reveal after they were released that they were tortured and have the scars to prove it. Why do you and others here think it is OK to torture these people? Do you ever think that this barbaric treatment is creating more fighters against us over there? The reports are that this is the case.

[katgirl3]

The reason I posted that is to let you know that I have spoken with people who have been there.
And you obviously are confused again saying I never give my own opinions about things, most people here say I am too opinionated. And I do use my own words and thoughts on these matters. I do not post page after page of others work,again you are wrong. Once again you have me confused with someone else.

As for the detainees the pentagon study reveals 65% are farmers and students, they have committed no crimes but they are locked up for months and years and many reveal after they were released that they were tortured and have the scars to prove it. Why do you and others here think it is OK to torture these people? Do you ever think that this barbaric treatment is creating more fighters against us over there? The reports are that this is the case.

So because they're farmers and students, they can't possibly be terrorists? :rolleyes:

http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf




May 17. Mohammed Atta, an Egyptian, applied for and on the next day received a five-
year B-1/B-2 (tourist/business) visa from the U.S. embassy in Berlin, Germany. The
consular officer who adjudicated this visa said Atta “definitely� was not interviewed.



According to the officer, because he was a third-country national who had long been
resident in Germany (approximately five years), the visa interview requirement was
waived, and Atta was “basically treated like� a German citizen. German citizens do not
need visas, as they participate in a “visa waiver� program. Another factor in his favor was
Atta’s strong record as a student in Germany. Atta’s visa application was destroyed
prior to 9/11 pursuant to State Department policy then in effect, so we were able to
review only the electronic record of his application.

[Njean31]

[QUOTE=katgirl3]So because they're farmers and students, they can't possibly be terrorists? :rolleyes:


exactly. peace, love, flowers, and happiness ain't going to work on these people.

[mesue]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that we are torturing innocent people, the pentagon study shows of the people we have tortured 65% were innocent farmers and students. And sometimes even after they are known to be innocent they are still kept locked up held because of red tape. One man was arrested and held because he had a cell phone and a shovel in his car. These are the people you want tortured.

All you people scream Iraq and 911 and continue to use what happened on 911 as an excuse for the invasion of Iraq and as an excuse for the torture of these detainees, of the 19 terrorists, 15 were from Saudia Arabia, I don't think there was an Iraqi in the group of 19, Saudi Arabia you know where all the Bin Ladens and the Saudi royals that were here during 911 and were allowed to leave were from.

It amazes me that you all think its fine these very same people who had been found in the past to have funded Osama Bin Laden to have been allowed to leave without being detained or questioned. But then think its perfectly acceptable to torture Iraqi men, women, and children. It has been proven that women and children are locked up in these prisons as well.

Also by abusing these people we are only creating more fighters against us, tell me if this was your country that was being occupied and your husbands, fathers, brothers and sons were locked away in a prison being tortured, sometimes the families have searched for months and even years trying to find them, how many of you would fight back? Like I said by torturing these people we are only making the situation worse for everyone, including our own military. So much for winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Also while some of you seem to feel that we are hurting the terrorists by our barbaric actions, reports are that they don't have a recruitment problem since we invaded Iraq.

[Bliss]

You're right I must have confused you with the other memeber named Mesue..My bad!

Where exactly did anyone say it's all right to torture people? :confused:

I love how you say the treatment of the detainees it barbaric. You know damn well it would be all over the news.

Where are you coming up with 65% are farmers & students? I have yet to find where you're getting your information.

While you are sitting there hollering about the treatment of these "poor innocent people". Why don't you make a stink about the way Americans are being treated, If you want to know the real meaning of barbaric. Watch a video of an INNOCENT American being beheaded. That, ma'am is barbaric. At no time has our men or women treated any detainees's in such a manner. All the "torture" reports are "allegations made by the prisoners". I haven't read/heard anything I would consider as torture. Whether you realize or not, you are making our soldiers look like complete animals. I'm sure you can give a crap less.

[tngirl]

Clap Clap Clap

[katgirl3]

What you seem to be misunderstanding is that we are torturing innocent people, the pentagon study shows of the people we have tortured 65% were innocent farmers and students. And sometimes even after they are known to be innocent they are still kept locked up held because of red tape. One man was arrested and held because he had a cell phone and a shovel in his car. These are the people you want tortured.

All you people scream Iraq and 911 and continue to use what happened on 911 as an excuse for the invasion of Iraq and as an excuse for the torture of these detainees, of the 19 terrorists, 15 were from Saudia Arabia, I don't think there was an Iraqi in the group of 19, Saudi Arabia you know where all the Bin Ladens and the Saudi royals that were here during 911 and were allowed to leave were from.

It amazes me that you all think its fine these very same people who had been found in the past to have funded Osama Bin Laden to have been allowed to leave without being detained or questioned. But then think its perfectly acceptable to torture Iraqi men, women, and children. It has been proven that women and children are locked up in these prisons as well.

Also by abusing these people we are only creating more fighters against us, tell me if this was your country that was being occupied and your husbands, fathers, brothers and sons were locked away in a prison being tortured, sometimes the families have searched for months and even years trying to find them, how many of you would fight back? Like I said by torturing these people we are only making the situation worse for everyone, including our own military. So much for winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. Also while some of you seem to feel that we are hurting the terrorists by our barbaric actions, reports are that they don't have a recruitment problem since we invaded Iraq.


Never said it was okay to abuse innocent people. You might need to take a course in reading comprehension. :)


Our fathers, sons and brothers are not being imprisoned and tortured. Oh, and lets not forget our sisters. They're being killed. In the most barbaric of ways. They're not even kidnapping and killing our military. It's your average joe. Pretty much anyone they can get their hands on. Even their own people. It's a terror tactic and you're falling for it. People like you are giving them exactly what they want. And guess what? They'd kill you to.

You need to wake up. ;)

I, like Bliss, would like to know where you're getting this "65% of the people tortured (and I use that word loosely, as do you) are innocent students and farmers". In my previous post, Atta was an innocent student, too. :rolleyes:

[heartlvrs]

You're right I must have confused you with the other memeber named Mesue..My bad!

Where exactly did anyone say it's all right to torture people? :confused:

I love how you say the treatment of the detainees it barbaric. You know damn well it would be all over the news.

Where are you coming up with 65% are farmers & students? I have yet to find where you're getting your information.

While you are sitting there hollering about the treatment of these "poor innocent people". Why don't you make a stink about the way Americans are being treated, If you want to know the real meaning of barbaric. Watch a video of an INNOCENT American being beheaded. That, ma'am is barbaric. At no time has our men or women treated any detainees's in such a manner. All the "torture" reports are "allegations made by the prisoners". I haven't read/heard anything I would consider as torture. Whether you realize or not, you are making our soldiers look like complete animals. I'm sure you can give a crap less.

again CLAP CLAP CLAP as says TNGIRL

yeah burning our men on tv is ok too right/??

[Bliss]

I swear Mesue you're bad for my health..While sitting here laughing at your posts. I hurt my neck...I need your user name Me sue, I need to sue you for the torture your posts have caused me...lmao (before you get your bloomers in a bunch, I am only kidding about sueing.) Hahahaha

[mesue]

Oh I truly love this, first you say I post too many links and paste too much, but then say where are getting this information from.

katgirl3 perhaps you should write Rumsfeld as well


http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2[QUOTE] Rumsfeld said that he had not actually looked at any of the Abu Ghraib photographs until some of them appeared in press accounts, and hadn’t reviewed the Army’s copies until the day before. When he did, they were “hard to believe,� he said. “There are other photos that depict . . . acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel, and inhuman.�

And for all of you applauding and supporting abusing detainees perhaps you would like to applaud this as well.





http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040517fa_fact2
NBC News later quoted U.S. military officials as saying that the unreleased photographs showed American soldiers “severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner, and ‘acting inappropriately with a dead body.’ The officials said there also was a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.�



Thats right an Iraqi child in US custody was raped. I guess it must have been considered real entertaining since they videotaped it.

Now where do I get my figures, actually I said 65% because I was writing from memory and wanted to go low but the Red Cross an organization most people trust says its actually 70%-90% are innocent.






http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm
Published on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 by the Los Angeles Times
Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses.

by Bob Drogin

WASHINGTON — Coalition military intelligence officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake," according to a confidential Red Cross report given to the Bush administration earlier this year.

Yet the report described a wide range of prisoner mistreatment — including many new details of abusive techniques — that it said U.S. officials had failed to halt, despite repeated complaints from the International Committee of the Red Cross

[Bliss]

And for all of you applauding and supporting abusing detainees perhaps you would like to applaud this as well.


Who is appauding & supporting abuse? Can you comprehend what you read? If not, get an education, or have someone explain to you what is posted. So, you can get off the BS about people supporting abuse. No one has mention (other than your accusations) supporting any type of abuse.



You said and I quote "65% of the detainees are FARMERS & STUDENTS" Now where in this articale does it say "farmers & studets? "officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake,"

[mesue]

Who is appauding & supporting abuse? Can you comprehend what you read? If not, get an education, or have someone explain to you what is posted. So, you can get off the BS about people supporting abuse. No one has mention (other than your accusations) supporting any type of abuse.



You said and I quote "65% of the detainees are FARMERS & STUDENTS" Now where in this articale does it say "farmers & studets? "officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake,"

I think this a quote from you earlier in this thread.
'Whatever...I'll never feel sorry for any of them, not even the ones who were photographed."

When someone continually excuses and defends reported and documented abuses of detainees by saying some of the things said here ,
and others here applaud that, I take that to mean that they support and condone those actions. You have another explanation for that?

Now the fact that I used the terms farmers and students when I said 65% were innocent and the report from the red cross says it 70%-90% is a real big deal, because the red cross report doesn't say occupation but gives an even higher number of innocents. I told you what I wrote earlier was from memory of news reports, what is it you are having such a problem comprehending?

BTW someone who was an actual military interrogator of these Iraqi detainees for the military gave this interview, I watched it when it was aired but here is a transcript, he refers to some of the detainees as farmers and talk about 98% being innocents, but I think I would have to go with the numbers given by the red cross.




http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/15/1632233&mode=thread&tid=25
TONY LAGOURANIS: Right. So I was supposed to interrogate these guys. Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: And how do you go about doing that, as they're in front of you with broken bones, beaten, smashed, punched, burned?

TONY LAGOURANIS: Well, as you know, as I said, this was really late in the year, and I had really sort of given up using any harsh tactics, so, I was trying to get these guys to trust me, telling them I'm going to help them out, which I really couldn't help anybody out at that place, because everyone they arrested, innocent or guilty, no matter what I said, they would just send them to Abu Ghraib anyway. But --

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean?

TONY LAGOURANIS: Well, you know, the interrogators-- I’m the only person who is going to talk to this guy. There's no officer that's going to talk to him. The person who decides whether to let them go or keep them is not going to interrogate them. So, my recommendation should count for something, you know, but it didn't at FOB CALSU with the 24th MEW Marines. Basically everybody who came to the prison, they determined, they were a terrorist, they were guilty and they would send them to Abu Ghraib.

AMY GOODMAN: What did you determine?

TONY LAGOURANIS: That like 98% of these guys had not done anything. I mean, they were picking up people for the stupidest things like -- there's one guy they picked up, they stopped him at a checkpoint, just a routine stop, and he had a shovel in his trunk, and he had a cell phone in his pocket. They said, well, you can use the shovel to bury an IED, you can use the cell phone to detonate it. He didn't have any explosives in his car, he had no weapons, nothing. They had no reason to believe that he was setting IED’s other than the shovel and cell phone. That was the kind of prisoner they were bringing us

AMY GOODMAN: Were you having discussions with other interrogators?

TONY LAGOURANIS: Sure. We all talked about it. I discussed this with my team leader all the time. The people I was working with all the time. You know part of the problem back then too, is that I was still under the impression that we were getting prisoners who had intel -- who had intel to give us, and you know, I still thought that these were bad guys.

I was believing the intelligence reports that came in with the prisoner. I believed the detainee units, but later it became clear to me that they weren't -- they were picking up just farmers, you know, like these guys were totally innocent and that's why we weren't getting intel. And it just made what we were doing, like, seem even more cruel.

[nightrider127]

You're right I must have confused you with the other memeber named Mesue..My bad!

Where exactly did anyone say it's all right to torture people? :confused:

I love how you say the treatment of the detainees it barbaric. You know damn well it would be all over the news.

Where are you coming up with 65% are farmers & students? I have yet to find where you're getting your information.

While you are sitting there hollering about the treatment of these "poor innocent people". Why don't you make a stink about the way Americans are being treated, If you want to know the real meaning of barbaric. Watch a video of an INNOCENT American being beheaded. That, ma'am is barbaric. At no time has our men or women treated any detainees's in such a manner. All the "torture" reports are "allegations made by the prisoners". I haven't read/heard anything I would consider as torture. Whether you realize or not, you are making our soldiers look like complete animals. I'm sure you can give a crap less.

Where is something clapping when I need one?

clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

[mesue]

You're right I must have confused you with the other memeber named Mesue..My bad!

Where exactly did anyone say it's all right to torture people? :confused:

I love how you say the treatment of the detainees it barbaric. You know damn well it would be all over the news.

Where are you coming up with 65% are farmers & students? I have yet to find where you're getting your information.

While you are sitting there hollering about the treatment of these "poor innocent people". Why don't you make a stink about the way Americans are being treated, If you want to know the real meaning of barbaric. Watch a video of an INNOCENT American being beheaded. That, ma'am is barbaric. At no time has our men or women treated any detainees's in such a manner. All the "torture" reports are "allegations made by the prisoners". I haven't read/heard anything I would consider as torture. Whether you realize or not, you are making our soldiers look like complete animals. I'm sure you can give a crap less.

Actually these pictures and the reports from the red cross is simply what they are, proof of the abuse. I would think that a logical explanation of whom to blame for making our soldiers look like complete animals would be the ones allowing these acts to take place and the ones committing them. But from your posts I think you would just prefer to shoot the messenger. LOL

I don't have to point out what has been done to Americans to you or anyone here, it is on the news, at least as much as the corporate owned news wants you to know, but their not telling you anything but feel good stories about the Iraqi people, their not telling you about how many innocent Iraqi people are detained and locked up, how many are tortured, how many innocent civilians have died in this war. But then their not telling you very much about our own wounded and maimed or our own dead military personnel.

It could be that its hard to get those details in between commercials and the latest hollywood gossip and sports or maybe reminding you and others the high cost of war is not their business. Keeping you informed is not their business either.

What you seem bound and determined is to see any voice of dissent as being anti-American and that is not the case.

[nightrider127]

I am sitting here at my keyboard with one thought going through my head. Mesue, do you have any sympathy at all for the families who have lost loved ones due to a group of mad dogs cutting their heads off with what is probably dull knieves? Please tell me that you have one shread of sorrow for these people. You go on and on about prisioner abuse. I have not seen one post from you saying how bad it is for people to have their heads chopped off yet you can go on and on about the U.S. abusing captives.

I will save my sympathy for people like the family that lives over on the other side of town from me that has more than likely lost their 19 year old son due to this little technique (sp).

I know that I am letting my emotions getting the better of me so no one needs to tell me that I am. I am no good at debating issues like a lot of people that have posted in this thread are. But damnit, I am POed. POed due to fact that yet once again, I am seeing the horrible things done to our people being pushed to the background yet again by a person that can only go on and on about what is happening to the other side.

At least they are alive.

At least they still have their heads attached to their bodies.

[Bliss]

Actually these pictures and the reports from the red cross is simply what they are, proof of the abuse. I would think that a logical explanation of whom to blame for making our soldiers look like complete animals would be the ones allowing these acts to take place and the ones committing them. But from your posts I think you would just prefer to shoot the messenger. LOL

A handful of soldiers who crossed the line shouldn't represent the entire military as a whole.



I don't have to point out what has been done to Americans to you or anyone here, it is on the news, at least as much as the corporate owned news wants you to know, but their not telling you anything but feel good stories about the Iraqi people, their not telling you about how many innocent Iraqi people are detained and locked up, how many are tortured, how many innocent civilians have died in this war. But then their not telling you very much about our own wounded and maimed or our own dead military personnel.

The media hardly ever televises the good Our Soldiers have accomplished. The good doesn't sell...Besides the media wants people like you to believe every horrid thing you read. (It's easy to brain wash the small minded. =) If they don't have a story, they'll beat one to death like they have done this story, or they'll feed you half truths. They don't want to confuse you with the "good deeds done". It would throw off the whole image the media has portrayed our miltary to be...


Did you know a lot of the "innocent civilians" you speak about are killed by their own people? Not by our military. Most of the damage in Iraq is done by Iraqis...Not by our Military.


What you seem bound and determined is to see any voice of dissent as being anti-American and that is not the case.

You are so wrong! A difference of an opinion doesn't make someone anti-american. But, someone who defends the enemy and continues to put down everything related to American, I would call anti-american... I would easily put you into the catagory based on a lot of posts you have made. You don't seem to awful proud of the USA or Americans at all.

[tngirl]

I stand by what I have had to say. I also do not feel like I need to validate my views to anyone that appears to so totally hates this country and what it stands for.

I stand tall and I am proud to be an American and I am proud of our Government (no matter of who is in office and with all of its flaws). I am also proud of our Military. They do what they believe needs to be done. I am not in their shoes and I would never begin to judge their actions.

[mesue]

A handful of soldiers who crossed the line shouldn't represent the entire military as a whole.




The media hardly ever televises the good Our Soldiers have accomplished. The good doesn't sell...Besides the media wants people like you to believe every horrid thing you read. (It's easy to brain wash the small minded. =) If they don't have a story, they'll beat one to death like they have done this story, or they'll feed you half truths. They don't want to confuse you with the "good deeds done". It would throw off the whole image the media has portrayed our miltary to be...


Did you know a lot of the "innocent civilians" you speak about are killed by their own people? Not by our military. Most of the damage in Iraq is done by Iraqis...Not by our Military.



You are so wrong! A difference of an opinion doesn't make someone anti-american. But, someone who defends the enemy and continues to put down everything related to American, I would call anti-american... I would easily put you into the catagory based on a lot of posts you have made. You don't seem to awful proud of the USA or Americans at all.

Oh please, tell me you believe in dissent and then turn around and call me anti-American because I speak about things that doesn't make you proud to be an American. I point them out because they need to be fixed. I point them out because no one here wants to even acknowledge there is a problem. And I have shown you confirmed reports, this thread is about the UN wanting to close Guantanamo because of the abuses.

And what I have pointed out is the suffering of the Iraqi people,the innocent civlians, but you accuse me of defending the enemy. So I can only assume you see them all as the enemy.

[mesue]

I am sitting here at my keyboard with one thought going through my head. Mesue, do you have any sympathy at all for the families who have lost loved ones due to a group of mad dogs cutting their heads off with what is probably dull knieves? Please tell me that you have one shread of sorrow for these people. You go on and on about prisioner abuse. I have not seen one post from you saying how bad it is for people to have their heads chopped off yet you can go on and on about the U.S. abusing captives.

I will save my sympathy for people like the family that lives over on the other side of town from me that has more than likely lost their 19 year old son due to this little technique (sp).

I know that I am letting my emotions getting the better of me so no one needs to tell me that I am. I am no good at debating issues like a lot of people that have posted in this thread are. But damnit, I am POed. POed due to fact that yet once again, I am seeing the horrible things done to our people being pushed to the background yet again by a person that can only go on and on about what is happening to the other side.

At least they are alive.

At least they still have their heads attached to their bodies.
I'm very sorry for all the families who have lost loved ones there, I'm sorry for the wounded and the maimed from this war, I want them to have the vey best care and I want the war ended, I want all of our military home.

What you seem to be missing, along with everyone else, in this debate is that as long as our government allows these types of abuses more people there will join the forces fighting against us and more people will die, more innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, and more Americans military personnel will die as more fighers rise against them. How are the abuses in these prisons helping our side? Their not helping us at all but the continued abuse is helpng increase the numbers of the fghters against us.

While I agree with you and others here that what has been done to the Americans over there is horrible I can't see how torturing and abusing these people is going to do anything but cause more people over there to join the resistance and rise up against us and prolong this war even more.

Actually your statement about at least the (POWs) alive is not correct.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/10/26/1423248&mode=thread&tid=25
Meanwhile, the American Civil Liberties Union has released new documents this week that indicate at least 21 detainees have been murdered at U.S. facilities in Iraq and Afghanistan. The ACLU came to the conclusion after obtaining reams of released Pentagon documents. According to the group, the documents show that detainees were hooded, gagged, strangled, beaten with blunt objects, subjected to sleep deprivation and to hot and cold environmental conditions.

[mesue]

I stand by what I have had to say. I also do not feel like I need to validate my views to anyone that appears to so totally hates this country and what it stands for.

I stand tall and I am proud to be an American and I am proud of our Government (no matter of who is in office and with all of its flaws). I am also proud of our Military. They do what they believe needs to be done. I am not in their shoes and I would never begin to judge their actions.
What this country used to stand for is democracy and freedom and rights and doing the right thing. Our government went by the Geneva Convention rules of conduct for detainees and POWs not go out seeking ways to make torture legal.

[tngirl]

FYI, if I am not mistaken, Club Gitmo is where the Afghanistan prisoners are being held, not the Iraqi's. We have POW camps set up over there for that.

And mesue, maybe I would take you a bit more seriously if your post weren't clouded with Bush bashing. It seems the only "wrongs" you are able to find are with Republicans. The "wrongs" that are going on are not just being done by the RNC or the Bush Administration. Just like the "Selling of America" thread, it started right off the bat being a Bush bashing instead of anyone actually looking at facts. And look at that, it was something started by the Clinton administration....we are getting nothing for the sale.

People don't look at the broader picture in order to get information. I check all sources, no matter who is publishing it or saying it, I then make my decision on what is the truth or closest to the truth. But the only things that you want to believe are the things that look bad on the current administration without digging any deeper. There are so many things in play that were brought about by previous admins. And you know what? No matter who is the President at present time, there is no way that any admin can undo or make changes in everything that is "wrong"

You want to get up on the soap box and sing, but you don't know the entire story. You chose to believe only the people that have the single goal of creating dissent with and within our government. I personally have NO respect for the UN, they have become a joke. What are they going to do if we don't close Club Gitmo? We are still the most powerful nation on this earth.

Also, I was not applauding torture, I was applauding Bliss. I agree, you need to take a reading comprehension class. You continually turn peoples words around to justify your comments. Go ahead and bash me all you want, my views remain the same. I am not there and you are not there so neither one of us know what is trully going on. Some person comes out of prison and talks about the abuse, and we should believe everything they say? They are the enemy. If they were/are innocent of the "crimes" they were held for, I am truly sorry. But once again, this is war.

[katgirl3]

[QUOTE=mesue]Oh I truly love this, first you say I post too many links and paste too much, but then say where are getting this information from.

katgirl3 perhaps you should write Rumsfeld as well



And perhaps you'd like to pay attention to what you're reading? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/katgirl3/dry.gif

Can you show me where I said you post too many links and paste too much?http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/katgirl3/blink.gif Although I think most if not all of the sites you dredge up are suspect, I don't care how much you post or paste. Paste until the cows come home. Have fun. Party down. :rolleyes: I don't recall anyone in this thread applauding POW's being abused, either. Again, comprehending what you're reading is sooooo important. You can then respond appropriately. ;)

Just one question for you. Does it bother you that our people, civilians, are being kidnapped and killed in Iraq? Cause I have yet to hear you harp on about that. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/katgirl3/dry.gif

Not sure why I should write Rumsfeld. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/katgirl3/blink.gif Is there something you'd like me to tell him? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v292/katgirl3/unsure.gif

[Jolie Rouge]

Ita

[Bliss]

Oh please, tell me you believe in dissent and then turn around and call me anti-American because I speak about things that doesn't make you proud to be an American. I point them out because they need to be fixed. I point them out because no one here wants to even acknowledge there is a problem. And I have shown you confirmed reports, this thread is about the UN wanting to close Guantanamo because of the abuses.

And what I have pointed out is the suffering of the Iraqi people,the innocent civlians, but you accuse me of defending the enemy. So I can only assume you see them all as the enemy.


You are Anti-American...You have nothing nice to say about our Soldiers, their accomplishments, all you post about are the neg. things a handful of soldiers done.....I hate to disappoint you, I'm proud to be an American. If you want to "fix" the problems you continue to whine about, get off your arse and do something about it. Whining on a freebie board isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Yeah, you do go on and on about the "suffering of Iraqi's." You have yet to mention Americans going through much worse treatment. Which I don't understand...You should be more concerned about the wellbeing of our men & women who are losing their lives so you can sit there on your arse and whine how they are mistreating prisioniers. (If it wasn't for them, you wouldn't have the freedom to whine about anything....) You find every way possible to slam them. The "innocent" prisioners you keep whining about, would kill you in a new york min. They have no value of human life...

At any rate...I've wasted more time than I had planned to waste on replying to your one sided/misguided posts...Rip my post to shreds if you want, I'm done responding to you...

[Njean31]

You are Anti-American...You have nothing nice to say about our Soldiers, their accomplishments, all you post about are the neg. things a handful of soldiers done.....I hate to disappoint you, I'm proud to be an American. If you want to "fix" the problems you continue to whine about, get off your arse and do something about it. Whining on a freebie board isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Yeah, you do go on and on about the "suffering of Iraqi's." You have yet to mention Americans going through much worse treatment. Which I don't understand...You should be more concerned about the wellbeing of our men & women who are losing their lives so you can sit there on your arse and whine how they are mistreating prisioniers. (If it wasn't for them, you wouldn't have the freedom to whine about anything....) You find every way possible to slam them. The "innocent" prisioners you keep whining about, would kill you in a new york min. They have no value of human life...

At any rate...I've wasted more time than I had planned to waste on replying to your one sided/misguided posts...Rip my post to shreds if you want, I'm done responding to you...

ita.........it is nauseating.

[tngirl]

You are Anti-American...You have nothing nice to say about our Soldiers, their accomplishments, all you post about are the neg. things a handful of soldiers done.....I hate to disappoint you, I'm proud to be an American. If you want to "fix" the problems you continue to whine about, get off your arse and do something about it. Whining on a freebie board isn't going to make a bit of difference.

Yeah, you do go on and on about the "suffering of Iraqi's." You have yet to mention Americans going through much worse treatment. Which I don't understand...You should be more concerned about the wellbeing of our men & women who are losing their lives so you can sit there on your arse and whine how they are mistreating prisioniers. (If it wasn't for them, you wouldn't have the freedom to whine about anything....) You find every way possible to slam them. The "innocent" prisioners you keep whining about, would kill you in a new york min. They have no value of human life...

At any rate...I've wasted more time than I had planned to waste on replying to your one sided/misguided posts...Rip my post to shreds if you want, I'm done responding to you...

I also agree, I am done with this thread also. It is actually rather sad.

[nightrider127]

[QUOTE]





Just one question for you. Does it bother you that our people, civilians, are being kidnapped and killed in Iraq? Cause I have yet to hear you harp on about that.



You may read a sentence or two about how she thinks it is terrible the way our men and women have been treated, Katgirl. What with digging up obscure sites about how terrible we treat our prisioners, there just isn't much time left to sympathize with our people who have lost and given so much.

[mesue]

That's what bothering most of you, is the websites are not obscure, NBC, Democracy Now from Free Speech TV, red cross reports, and they prove to you that most of these people being abused are civilians.

Katgirl I quoted Donald Rumsfeld, he said pretty much the same thing I did about the pictures, that is why I quoted him, and this why I quoted him in response to this statement you made,
" People like you are giving them exactly what they want",
and my next sentence was, and for all of you.

As for the first sentence I thought it was pretty clear whom that statement was directed at, Bliss had accused me of never giving my opinion and said I pasted too much and posted too many links, since she and I had discussed this in several posts in this thread, and then she asked where I was getting my info from, which is why I always in the past had given a link. I assumed it was clear to anyone since she and I had went over that in several posts whom I was saying that too. Sorry I was not more clear on that and you misunderstood. And thanks I may have a paste party later.

tngrl I don't think I mentioned the B word (Bush) once. No one knows who exacty is at Guantanamo, what happened at Abu Gharib is relavant, it shows a policy of abuse in these prisons. The reason the UN is calling for the Guantanamo prison to be closed is because of the reported abuses there.

I find it funny that unless one proclaims they are proud to be an American and say I support our military their accused of being anti-American. Everyone who has spoken out against this war has been called anti-American. I don't support the reasons given for this war, I never agreed with it and said so and history has already proven me right.

I feel sorry for our military personnel sent there under what some call a mistake and others call an outright lie. I even feel sorrow for most of the miltary personnel who are the abusers in these prisons and war, most are frightened and unsure and following orders. If we went strictly by the rules of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POW's this would help resolve that.

I agree the majority of soldiers there are trying to help, but that still does not take away from the fact that 70% or more of these prisoners are innocent and many are being abused by some miltary personnel.

What I do support is bringing our military personnel home and providing them with the promised educational benefits and medical benefits they were promised for joining the miltary. I do not support any cuts in funding for education or military medical benefts. They should get what is promised.

As for being through with this thread I truly am. I find it sickening that anyone who points out the horrible suffering in these prisons, including the rape of women and children going on in these prisons, being called anti- American simply because they point it out, disgusting.

[Jolie Rouge]

If we went strictly by the rules of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POW's this would help resolve that.

They refuse to abide by those some Conventions - therefore they are not afforded its protections.


I don't support the reasons given for this war, .....
and history has already proven me right.

Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
Ex-Official: Russia Moved Saddam's WMD
Kenneth R. Timmerman
Sunday, Feb. 19, 2006

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...3023.shtml?s=lh




The reason the UN is calling for the Guantanamo prison to be closed is because of the reported abuses there

But the UN did not send a delegation to the prison - only relied on second and third hand reports. Not very crediable EXSPECIALLY from them.

[Jolie Rouge]

Not very crediable EXSPECIALLY from them.


U.N. peacekeepers arrested for sex crimes
Monday, February 14, 2005

UNITED NATIONS (AP) -- The Moroccan mission to the United Nations has announced it arrested six U.N. peacekeeping soldiers in Congo accused of sexually abusing local girls and discharged the contingent's commander.

Fred Eckhard, the U.N. secretary-general's spokesman, on Monday said the announcement over the weekend showed "the Morrocan authorities attach as much importance to eradicating sexual abuse within U.N. peacekeeping missions as does the U.N. The mission hopes that the vigorous and public reaction of Morocco will serve as an example and that other troop contributing countries will follow," he added.

There have been more than 150 allegations of sexual exploitation of girls as young as 13 by U.N. peacekeepers in Congo.

Annan last Wednesday urged the Security Council to add at least 100 military police to the peacekeeping mission in Congo to help prevent sex abuse by the U.N. forces.

Eckhard said other measures had been taken, including improved surveillance around U.N. military camps, a curfew and the shuttering of local stores where soldiers interacted with locals.

Allegations of abuse first surfaced in 2004 and the U.N. Office of Internal Oversight Services said abuse by peacekeepers was ongoing.

According to last month's report by the U.N. watchdog agency, peacekeepers regularly had sex with Congolese women and girls, usually in exchange for food or small sums of money.

Sexual activities continued even while the investigation was continuing in the eastern town of Bunia between May and September 2004, the report said.

The United Nations currently has about 11,500 soldiers, 150 civilian police and 700 international staff in Congo trying to support the country's fragile peace process and help it move toward free elections later this year. In October, the council authorized an increase in the U.N. mission to 16,700.


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/afric...s.ap/index.html

See also ....


The U.N., Preying on the Weak
By Peter Dennis
Tuesday, April 12, 2005; Page A21

Anyone who was shocked by the most recent revelations of sexual misconduct by United Nations staff has never set foot in a U.N.-sponsored refugee camp. Sex crimes are only one especially disturbing symptom of a culture of abuse that exists in the United Nations precisely because the United Nations and its staff lack accountability.

This lack of accountability is the central blemish on today's United Nations, and it lies behind most of the recent headlines. Whether taking advantage of a malnourished refugee or of a lucrative oil-for-food contract, the temptation is there, the act is easy and the risk of punishment is nil.

I arrived in Sierra Leone as a legal aid worker in the summer of 2003, one year after the release of a damaging report on sexual abuse in U.N. refugee camps in West Africa. Although the report's description of widespread sexual abuse had prompted Secretary General Kofi Annan to issue a strongly worded "zero tolerance" policy, I found abuse of a sexual nature almost every day -- zero compliance with zero tolerance, as one investigator was to write. U.N. leaders had simply not expended any effort beyond lip service to carry out this zero tolerance policy.

In fact, abuse at these camps went beyond sexual violations: Injustices of one sort or another were perpetrated by U.N. missions or their affiliated nongovernmental organizations every day in the camps I visited. Corruption was the norm, in particular the embezzlement of food and funds by NGO officials, which often left camp resources dangerously inadequate. Utterly arbitrary judicial systems in the camps subjected refugees to violent physical punishment or months in prison for trivial offenses -- all at the whim of officials and in the absence of any sort of hearing.

I became especially involved in the plight of 11 young Liberian men from the Tobanda refugee camp near Kenema, Sierra Leone. They had been arrested and imprisoned, without trial, by the U.N.-sponsored camp management. The accusation: stealing plastic tarps. The refugee youths had received permission from camp management to use surplus tarps for housing, but they had not been given explicit permission to do so by officials of the Office of the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR).

The camp's management later had them arrested by the local authorities, and they remained in a squalid, inadequate Sierra Leonean state prison, without a formal trial or any legal representation. Of course, the UNHCR officer assigned to monitor refugees in local prisons would be unaware of this fact -- a prison log book revealed that he had not visited the prison for several months. By the time the young men were freed they had spent four months in a filthy, damp prison and were suffering from malaria, scabies and malnutrition. The prison was just yards from the UNHCR (and UNICEF) headquarters in Kenema.

This experience was sadly typical for the refugees with whom I worked. Although charged with the care of desperate refugees, many of the UNHCR staff remained ambivalent or hostile to the basic rights and needs of these vulnerable people. And they acted without fear of consequence.

The risk to these staff members is low in U.N. refugee camps, because peacekeepers engaged in criminal acts are immune from local prosecution. Therefore, local parties seeking justice must travel to the peacekeeper's home country. U.N. workers from countries with unresponsive legal systems, or those committing unspectacular crimes, can sleep easy. At the same time, local NGO employees who are contracted by the United Nations to work in the camps are covered by a de facto implied immunity. That is, if these individuals are identified as being connected with U.N. operations, they will probably never face charges for their actions by local authorities. In West Africa, most of the sexual misconduct accusations are leveled against local NGO staff members.

If the United Nations is to enjoy such immunity, it is incumbent on the organization to police itself aggressively and thoroughly. Yet the recent stonewalling over a series of scandals from the United Nations -- from oil-for-food to a sexual harassment imbroglio involving a high U.N. official -- are typical of a bureaucracy dedicated to self-preservation. This code of behavior travels rapidly down the organizational chart. The message is: Cover your tracks and the United Nations will obstruct your prosecution.

After the 2002 report documented sexual abuse, Annan's steely resolve led to exactly zero criminal prosecutions of U.N. officials for sexual abuse. I expect little difference now that refugee camp conditions have returned to the headlines. As before, Annan has delivered vague statements but prosecuted no one. It appears that the status quo reigns and that those perpetrating all sorts of abuses in refugee camps may continue undisturbed. The United Nations is a vital institution that needs a housecleaning.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45304-2005Apr11.html



To find out more ... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=United+Nations+Abuses

[Bliss]

Jolie - You just shot all of mesue's posts about the UN to hell. :D

[heartlvrs]

Jolie - You just shot all of mesue's posts about the UN to hell. :D


OH YEAH@!! Go Girl!!! JOLIE!!

[adorkablex]

Jolie - You just shot all of mesue's posts about the UN to hell. :D

Sweet heavens, can you not even keep your word for more than a day or so? :rolleyes:


I don't have the time to go through and quote all of the statements that I thought were just plain stupid, so I'll touch on the ones I remember.

To whomever said they were just sorry that the soldiers got caught... That's just ridiculous. Do you not understand that we're supposed to be better people?! We're supposed to be over there HELPING these people, not torturing them. We as Americans live by a code of ethics and morals and just because we don't agree with a sect of people's actions doesn't make it right to stooping to their level.

Do you people not realize that crap like this is what makes it so bad for our soldiers and the civilians trying to work over there?! The Iraqi people see these images of their people being tortured and humiliated and it makes it that much harder to get them over on ourside and to help rebuild their country.

And the difference in the Americans being caught and tortured over there and the Iraqi's that are being tortured.... any American in Iraq is there by choice...As far as I know, none of the Iraqi's in the prisons have been tried and convicted of anything so they're "innocent until proven guilty" if I'm not mistaken. So why is it alright to torture these people but if crap like this was happening in prisons here in the states people would be up in arms and calling for some sort of action.

Any whichway about it.. torture is wrong, no matter who is commiting it. It's wrong when they do it, but as my Mama always said "two wrongs don't make a right".

[adorkablex]

And it's remarkable to me that you have the balls to comment on my lack of politeness, but yet you continue to rip Mesue to pieces. Give me a break, it's one thing to disagree with someone in at least a somewhat tactful way. And I understand that sometimes people's fingers run away at the keyboard before rational thought catches up (happens often with me) but I don't even see where you three have any real remorse over being such witches.


I hope kharma smacks you girls down big time.

[Bliss]

Sweet heavens, can you not even keep your word for more than a day or so? :rolleyes:

I didn't know I needed to answer to a lil 19 yr old.


I hope kharma smacks you girls down big time.


You better watch what you wish upon others, cause it will come back and bite you on your own arse.

[tngirl]

And it's remarkable to me that you have the balls to comment on my lack of politeness, but yet you continue to rip Mesue to pieces. Give me a break, it's one thing to disagree with someone in at least a somewhat tactful way. And I understand that sometimes people's fingers run away at the keyboard before rational thought catches up (happens often with me) but I don't even see where you three have any real remorse over being such witches.


I hope kharma smacks you girls down big time.

I have balls of brass little girl. :eek: And there is a difference between being rude and impolite as opposed to debating an issue. But, I am honored that I rated a post directed soley at me :D When you grow up and can carry on a conversation without name calling, come back and debate with the big girls.

[adorkablex]

I didn't know I needed to answer to a lil 19 yr old.




You better watch what you wish upon others, cause it will come back and bite you on your own arse.

I understand that at your advanced age bringing up my age seems to "put me in my place" but it just smiles at the reminder that I've not yet reached the old dusty witch stage. But then, if you told me what to expect I might not be so scared of becoming one.


I've got a clear kharma, but thanks for the concern :D

[adorkablex]

I have balls of brass little girl. :eek: And there is a difference between being rude and impolite as opposed to debating an issue. But, I am honored that I rated a post directed soley at me :D When you grow up and can carry on a conversation without name calling, come back and debate with the big girls.

Well apparently when I reach that stage, you won't be there either. Because you personally attack Mesue in almost every one of her posts. You constantly say you have too much of a life to argue with her, but yet you always do. But yet I'm the one that needs to grow up. Go figure.

[Bliss]

I understand that at your advanced age bringing up my age seems to "put me in my place" but it just smiles at the reminder that I've not yet reached the old dusty witch stage. But then, if you told me what to expect I might not be so scared of becoming one.


I've got a clear kharma, but thanks for the concern :D


LMFAO@advanced age.... I refuse to argue with a kid.

Have a good day!

[adorkablex]

LMFAO@advanced age.... I refuse to argue with a kid.

Have a good day!

But yet you keep coming back to reply. Why is that exactly? And I may be a "kid" but most of the people that you were taking up for in this thread are my age. So I'm old enough to go and die for your freedoms, but I'm not old enough to have an opinion. :D :p :rolleyes:

[tngirl]

LMFAO@advanced age.... I refuse to argue with a kid.

Have a good day!

OMG Bliss!!! We are old!! Not only are we old....but we are witches!! What shall we do? What shall we do?

[Bliss]

OMG Bliss!!! We are old!! Not only are we old....but we are witches!! What shall we do? What shall we do?

LMFAO ~ Where the hell did I put my walker errr ummmm, I mean my broom?? :eek:

[jdfan]

But yet you keep coming back to reply. Why is that exactly? And I may be a "kid" but most of the people that you were taking up for in this thread are my age. So I'm old enough to go and die for your freedoms, but I'm not old enough to have an opinion. :D :p :rolleyes:

You know some us have already served in the military and were willing to die for your rights, so know what you are saying before you say it.

[tngirl]

LMFAO ~ Where the hell did I put my walker errr ummmm, I mean my broom?? :eek:

Sorry Bliss, I borrowed it because mine was too dusty :D

[Jolie Rouge]

Now comon - I don't care how old adorkablex is - I find most of her posts to be well reasoned even we don't always agree. She offers considered comments and argues her side of a debate with passion and concern ( except for the "witches" comment - was I included in that trio ? )


No - I don't condone ANY torture; in the case of Gitmo they are being affording far more rights then if they were being held elsewhere. There is yet to be independant ( as in someone without an agenda, RC included )verification of any of these claims. Remember the story about Korans being flushed down toilets that the mainstream media ran - resulting in riots and at least 15 deaths. The story that was later proved false ? ( I'll look for a link ) The UN did not send anyone to check out Gitmo, they were working off old rumors and their hands are not exactly clean ( See the "Oil for Food" thread ). Kinda like asking the KKK to run a "Sensitivity Seminar" for the NAACP... :eek:

[Chiizii]

What you seem to be missing, along with everyone else, in this debate is that as long as our government allows these types of abuses more people there will join the forces fighting against us and more people will die, more innocent civilians caught in the crossfire, and more Americans military personnel will die as more fighers rise against them. How are the abuses in these prisons helping our side? Their not helping us at all but the continued abuse is helpng increase the numbers of the fghters against us.

Mesue has found the answer to what causes war! Alert the presses!

I couldn't resist...it was just sitting there begging for it..

BTW...as someone who is a Vet...remember viewpoints on war are a lot like blind men describing an elephant.

Now back to the discussion.

[Jolie Rouge]

Their not helping us at all but the continued abuse is helpng increase the numbers of the fghters against us.

What "continuing" abuse ? These are ( as far as I have heard ) just rehashes of the same accusations with the same evidence be re-issued as " new and improved".

Ask your self --- why are the same papers that refuse to publish the Mohammed cartoons because they would "inflame Muslim sensibilites" have no problem re-publishing the same pictures that have also caused riots and protests ?

[mesue]

Ok Jolie since you are bound and determined to quote me and ask, the Guantanamo facilty has not been cleared of charges of abuse. And what happened at Abu Gharib is relavant because we were in control of that prison as well.

Oh and you want to know about the cartoon and why these pics were reprinted, these new pictures of Abu Grahib were only recently released, so they are considered new news about an old scandal. The Iraqi and Arabs knew about the abuses taking place at Abu Grahib and Guantonamo long before you or I heard about it. And apparently so did the pentagon according to this report.



http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/21/1442213
Navy’s Top Attorney Warned Against Administration’s Detainee Policies
The New Yorker magazine has revealed that two years before the Abu Ghraib photos were first published, the Navy’s general counsel, Alberto Mora, began challenging what he described as the administration's "disastrous and unlawful policy of authorizing cruelty toward terror suspects." Mora warned his superiors at the Pentagon about the consequences of President Bush’s decision, in 2002, to circumvent the Geneva conventions. He argued that a refusal to outlaw cruelty toward U.S.-held detainees was an implicit invitation to abuse. Mora also challenged the legal framework that the Bush Administration has constructed to justify an expansion of executive power, in matters ranging from interrogations to wiretapping. He described the novel legal theories granting the President the right to authorize abuse as “unlawful,� “dangerous,� and “erroneous.�

Since believing in human rights for all and the rules for humane treatment handed down at the Geneva Convention now according to you and others here makes me anti-American here are some others you might recognize, looks like I'm in good company. LOL


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/21/1442213
Coalition of U.S. Churches Accuse Washington of “Raining Down Terror�
A coalition of American churches have sharply denounced the U.S. war in Iraq and accused Washington of “raining down terror�. The 34 U.S. members of the World Council of Churches agreed to a statement reading “We lament with special anguish the war in Iraq, launched in deception and violating global norms of justice and human rights.� The statement was issued from Porto Alegre, Brazil which is hosting the largest gathering of Christian churches in nearly a decade. The Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian Church and the United Methodist Church were among the U.S. churches backing the statement.

It's a well known fact many in the middle east hates us, that is no secret but torturing the ones in our custody is not going to change that, nor is it going to help us. And being known as people who allow this, what our government does, we all are blamed for in the eyes of the world. There mght come a time when the goodwill of our neighbors si needed.

But hey if you want to continue to believe it is all a lie and that the red cross is against us and lying too, go for it.

[Jolie Rouge]

#1 - **I** have never accussed you of being "un-American" - you have me confused with some of the other posters here.

#2 No I don't advocate torture - but i want independant verification.
I don't see any US prisons on video begging their family for their life before being beheaded and the clips being run over & over on AlJezera.

Yes - I think there are factions within the Red Cross and the UN with their own adgendas - having dealt with them in the aftermath of Katrina and Rita only reinforced that belief.

#3 - No I don't not blindly believe everything the Administration says -- however you and the whole ABB crowd seem to believe EVERYTHING the MSM has to sell. Your knee jerk reaction is "Blame Bush" to anything and everything. I notice that anything that reflect badly on previous administrations ( on positively on the present one ) you refuse to post a comment in - unless it is a sacrcastic remark.


I enjoy dabating with you - but debate requires at least TWO open minds.

[mesue]

You piped in with In total agreement after everyone here had called me anti-American, and did not quote any post so I felt it was reasonable to think that's what you meant. So what did you mean by Ita if not that?

Who is MSM?

You want independent verfication, from whom, the US government? Isn't that a little like the fox guarding the hen house? I'm not saying the red cross is perfect but most US citizens support them and believe them when they say our people are being mistreated but now when the shoe is on the other foot they can't be trusted? Why?

Clinton was no wheres near perfect or as perfect as Bush according to your former posts and threads but I got to ask, is there anything you supported that he, Clinton did? I doubt it but since you continually accuse me of being ABB, I can't help but ask. I supported Bush's decsion to go into Afghanistan to rid that area of the al-qaida and Taliban regime. I do not support staying there much longer.

Knee-jerk reaction,you want to know what one is? They cut our peoples heads off so we will torture them; my God look at what they have done to us, what we have done to them is nothing. And here is a particalar favorite of mine, one of yours about the POW rules from the Geneva Convention,

" They refuse to abide by those some Conventions - therefore they are not afforded its protections."

These are some of the knee jerk reactions I have heard here. Thinking beyond of the results of the abuse and the consequences of these actions is hardly a knee jerk reaction.

To quote Adorkablex's mother,"Two wrongs don't make a right." a wise woman who has a very smart daughter.

[Chiizii]

#1 - **I** have never accussed you of being "un-American" - you have me confused with some of the other posters here.

#2 No I don't advocate torture - but i want independant verification.
I don't see any US prisons on video begging their family for their life before being beheaded and the clips being run over & over on AlJezera.

Yes - I think there are factions within the Red Cross and the UN with their own adgendas - having dealt with them in the aftermath of Katrina and Rita only reinforced that belief.

#3 - No I don't not blindly believe everything the Administration says -- however you and the whole ABB crowd seem to believe EVERYTHING the MSM has to sell. Your knee jerk reaction is "Blame Bush" to anything and everything. I notice that anything that reflect badly on previous administrations ( on positively on the present one ) you refuse to post a comment in - unless it is a sacrcastic remark.


I enjoy dabating with you - but debate requires at least TWO open minds.

I agree with Jolie. I am not ready to jump upon the BDS bandwagon with the release of these new photos.

[mesue]

Mesue has found the answer to what causes war! Alert the presses!

I couldn't resist...it was just sitting there begging for it..

BTW...as someone who is a Vet...remember viewpoints on war are a lot like blind men describing an elephant.

Now back to the discussion.
Just who do you think the resistance fighters attacking our military are?

[stresseater]

Just who do you think the resistance fighters attacking our military are? Um terrorist, brought in from other countries, bought and paid for by the same faction that supported Saddam. :D :rolleyes: ;) :)

[katgirl3]

Just who do you think the resistance fighters attacking our military are?


Oh! Oh! I know! I know! That would be those innocent farmers and students you feel so sorry for. Right? ;)

[katgirl3]

That's what bothering most of you, is the websites are not obscure, NBC, Democracy Now from Free Speech TV, red cross reports, and they prove to you that most of these people being abused are civilians.

Katgirl I quoted Donald Rumsfeld, he said pretty much the same thing I did about the pictures, that is why I quoted him, and this why I quoted him in response to this statement you made,
" People like you are giving them exactly what they want",
and my next sentence was, and for all of you.

As for the first sentence I thought it was pretty clear whom that statement was directed at, Bliss had accused me of never giving my opinion and said I pasted too much and posted too many links, since she and I had discussed this in several posts in this thread, and then she asked where I was getting my info from, which is why I always in the past had given a link. I assumed it was clear to anyone since she and I had went over that in several posts whom I was saying that too. Sorry I was not more clear on that and you misunderstood. And thanks I may have a paste party later.

tngrl I don't think I mentioned the B word (Bush) once. No one knows who exacty is at Guantanamo, what happened at Abu Gharib is relavant, it shows a policy of abuse in these prisons. The reason the UN is calling for the Guantanamo prison to be closed is because of the reported abuses there.

I find it funny that unless one proclaims they are proud to be an American and say I support our military their accused of being anti-American. Everyone who has spoken out against this war has been called anti-American. I don't support the reasons given for this war, I never agreed with it and said so and history has already proven me right.

I feel sorry for our military personnel sent there under what some call a mistake and others call an outright lie. I even feel sorrow for most of the miltary personnel who are the abusers in these prisons and war, most are frightened and unsure and following orders. If we went strictly by the rules of the Geneva Convention on the treatment of POW's this would help resolve that.

I agree the majority of soldiers there are trying to help, but that still does not take away from the fact that 70% or more of these prisoners are innocent and many are being abused by some miltary personnel.

What I do support is bringing our military personnel home and providing them with the promised educational benefits and medical benefits they were promised for joining the miltary. I do not support any cuts in funding for education or military medical benefts. They should get what is promised.

As for being through with this thread I truly am. I find it sickening that anyone who points out the horrible suffering in these prisons, including the rape of women and children going on in these prisons, being called anti- American simply because they point it out, disgusting.

And once again, you've missed my point completely. I don't mind that you find the abuses appalling. That's fine. What I have a problem with is how you look for any opportunity to bash my country and my president. You relish it, in fact. People like you, who complain over and over about these abuses, but fail to say nary a word while people who actually are innocent civilians are having their heads whacked off in Iraq only feeds the terrorists (or resistance fighters as you so lovingly call them). It gives them validation. So hats off to ya Mesue.

Personally, I think you're just pissed off cause your guy lost the election. :p

[mesue]

And once again, you've missed my point completely. I don't mind that you find the abuses appalling. That's fine. What I have a problem with is how you look for any opportunity to bash my country and my president. You relish it, in fact. People like you, who complain over and over about these abuses, but fail to say nary a word while people who actually are innocent civilians are having their heads whacked off in Iraq only feeds the terrorists (or resistance fighters as you so lovingly call them). It gives them validation. So hats off to ya Mesue.

Personally, I think you're just pissed off cause your guy lost the election. :p
You miss my point completely, I beleve in human rights for ALL not just some. I am not the only one saying that over 70% of the people being detained and many tortured are innocent civilans, some women and children. Coalition intelligence says it, so do red cross reports. The reports I've read on Guantanamo are similar.

Our own people that have been kidnapped and others kidapped there, you keep talking about that you think I've forgotten, more or less accusing me of not caring about them at all. What have you done for them to bring about their release? I have done the only thing I can do besides pray for them, which I have done btw, I have signed a letter requesting their release that was publshed in the newspapers over there. I admit its not much but its probably more than majority of you have done. Whether you realize it or not its sort of scary to put your name on something you hope a terrorist will read. But I signed the letter because they have found the more support they can show these victims have the less likely they will be harmed.


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm
Published on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 by the Los Angeles Times
Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses.

by Bob Drogin

WASHINGTON — Coalition military intelligence officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake," according to a confidential Red Cross report given to the Bush administration earlier this year.

Yet the report described a wide range of prisoner mistreatment — including many new details of abusive techniques — that it said U.S. officials had failed to halt, despite repeated complaints from the International Committee of the Red Cross

[Chiizii]

Just who do you think the resistance fighters attacking our military are?

What is your point dear?

[excuseme]

There is really nothing to debate here. Any sort of abuse is illegal, period.

[Njean31]

Any sort of abuse is illegal, period.

yeah, but sometimes justifiable. i'm all for human rights but when a human starts acting like an animal then i'm not going to whine if someone with some balls treats them like one. take for instance the dude who buried the 11 year old alive in fla after raping her and keeping her alive in a closet for several days. if some of the guards chose to "humiliate" him in some way or go a little overboard with a taser, you wouldn't find me trying to get them fired. i would focus my energies on something more productive.

[mesue]

What is your point dear?
My point dear is that the resistance fighters are mostly Iraqi and the continued occupation and abuses are only going to fuel the fire.




http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1061703,00.html
Random road checks and house-to-house searches, often based on inaccurate information, make a bad situation worse. Culturally inappropriate behaviour - male soldiers body-searching women, for example - and collective punishments have further alienated the population and helped entrench popular support for resistance.

Given the growing number of Iraqis joining the resistance, there is a strong need for Washington and London to revise their military and political plans for post-conflict Iraq. The occupation forces are in a fragile position. If they strengthen their military presence in the face of increasing resistance, they will only alienate Iraqis yet further from their attempts to redraw the political future of Iraq - and the resistance will continue to spread. Unless there is an early withdrawal, the currently sporadic attacks in the Shia-dominated south can be expected to mushroom.

[Chiizii]

Just who do you think the resistance fighters attacking our military are?

My point dear is that the resistance fighters are mostly Iraqi and the continued occupation and abuses are only going to fuel the fire.

Yet you mention nothing about Iraqi Leaders encouraging a civil war. Instead you just blame the troops. The "insurgents" are encouraged to attack our military and collation troops in order to drive us out so they can go ahead with their own civil war instead of pursuing democracy where all are represented in the government. As well as they attack other Iraqis who differ in their opinion. As we see the Sunni Accord Front is leaving the talks and the Sunni's are important to the new government as well as restoring order in that nation.

[mesue]

Yet you mention nothing about Iraqi Leaders encouraging a civil war. Instead you just blame the troops. The "insurgents" are encouraged to attack our military and collation troops in order to drive us out so they can go ahead with their own civil war instead of pursuing democracy where all are represented in the government. As well as they attack other Iraqis who differ in their opinion. As we see the Sunni Accord Front is leaving the talks and the Sunni's are important to the new government as well as restoring order in that nation.
Because the thead is about the UN calling for the closing of prisons being maintained by the U.S. not whether or not there will be a civil war there or not. We are only fanning the flames of the resistance against us by any continued abuse of detainees.

And any abuse from the occupying military, coalition forces is just making the Iraqi leaders who are encouraging the Iraqi people to join the resistance, it's making it easier for them to recruit these people. So therefore any abuse of human rights is also increasing the numbers of resistance fighters and by doing that it is getting more of our soldiers attacked, wounded and killed. Why is that so difficult to understand?



http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/23/1454247

Study: Nearly 100 Detainees Have Died in US Custody
In others news, a new study from the group Human Rights First has found that nearly 100 prisoners in US custody have died in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last three and a half years. At least 34 deaths were due to suspected or confirmed homicides. Another 11 deaths were deemed suspicious and up to twelve deaths were caused by lethal torture. The report found that most deaths went un-punished. The report comes one week after a set of new photographs were released showing prisoner abuse at the US-run Abu Ghraib.

[Chiizii]

Let me speak plainly, I do not think that what goes on inside of Gitmo has a thing to do with the recruitment of people to join the insurgents. It has everything to do with power and religion in the region.

[excuseme]

I do not think that what goes on inside of Gitmo has a thing to do with the recruitment of people to join the insurgents.


Well the violent responce the newspaper cartoons pretty much dispells that belief.

[Njean31]

Well the violent responce the newspaper cartoons pretty much dispells that belief.


it just gives them another "excuse" for violence. they are going to do thier "deeds" with or without so called justifications. they are inheritantly violent to begin with. anything that goes against their beliefs is justification for killing

[katgirl3]

You miss my point completely, I beleve in human rights for ALL not just some. I am not the only one saying that over 70% of the people being detained and many tortured are innocent civilans, some women and children. Coalition intelligence says it, so do red cross reports. The reports I've read on Guantanamo are similar.

Our own people that have been kidnapped and others kidapped there, you keep talking about that you think I've forgotten, more or less accusing me of not caring about them at all. What have you done for them to bring about their release? I have done the only thing I can do besides pray for them, which I have done btw, I have signed a letter requesting their release that was publshed in the newspapers over there. I admit its not much but its probably more than majority of you have done. Whether you realize it or not its sort of scary to put your name on something you hope a terrorist will read. But I signed the letter because they have found the more support they can show these victims have the less likely they will be harmed.


From reading your posts the only point I get is you feel sorry for the terrorists. You're like a broken record when it comes to them. You're very specific when you talk about Coalition troops abusing prisoners. But when you talk about what they, the insurgents are doing to our side, it's general statements at best. You keep signing your little petitions. If you think they're going to care, you really are in the dark. :rolleyes:

[katgirl3]

it just gives them another "excuse" for violence. they are going to do thier "deeds" with or without so called justifications. they are inheritantly violent to begin with. anything that goes against their beliefs is justification for killing


Exactly.

[Jolie Rouge]

Well the violent responce the newspaper cartoons pretty much dispells that belief.

Please explain the logic ... Cartoon printed in a DANISH paper almost TWO YEARS AGO are suddenly mysteriously causing riots, death and distruction because of percieved insults to Islam are contected to Gitmo HOW ??


Going back a few pages ....
ItaI was responding to this post :


FYI, if I am not mistaken, Club Gitmo is where the Afghanistan prisoners are being held, not the Iraqi's. We have POW camps set up over there for that.

And mesue, maybe I would take you a bit more seriously if your post weren't clouded with Bush bashing. It seems the only "wrongs" you are able to find are with Republicans. The "wrongs" that are going on are not just being done by the RNC or the Bush Administration. Just like the "Selling of America" thread, it started right off the bat being a Bush bashing instead of anyone actually looking at facts. And look at that, it was something started by the Clinton administration....we are getting nothing for the sale.

People don't look at the broader picture in order to get information. I check all sources, no matter who is publishing it or saying it, I then make my decision on what is the truth or closest to the truth. But the only things that you want to believe are the things that look bad on the current administration without digging any deeper. There are so many things in play that were brought about by previous admins. And you know what? No matter who is the President at present time, there is no way that any admin can undo or make changes in everything that is "wrong"

You want to get up on the soap box and sing, but you don't know the entire story. You chose to believe only the people that have the single goal of creating dissent with and within our government. I personally have NO respect for the UN, they have become a joke. What are they going to do if we don't close Club Gitmo? We are still the most powerful nation on this earth.

Also, I was not applauding torture, I was applauding Bliss. I agree, you need to take a reading comprehension class. You continually turn peoples words around to justify your comments. Go ahead and bash me all you want, my views remain the same. I am not there and you are not there so neither one of us know what is trully going on. Some person comes out of prison and talks about the abuse, and we should believe everything they say? They are the enemy. If they were/are innocent of the "crimes" they were held for, I am truly sorry. But once again, this is war.


Appearently Bliss and I were posting at the same time and hers queded up before mine. In the above quote posts I don't see anyone accussing you of being "un-American".


I noticed also you skipped replying to several of my questions :


Ask your self --- why are the same papers that refuse to publish the Mohammed cartoons because they would "inflame Muslim sensibilites" have no problem re-publishing the same pictures that have also caused riots and protests ?

Is it because the riotting over the cartoons will only reflect badly on those the MSM ( ie: Main Stream Media ) keep trying to deitify while the rehash of the same old story of Abu Grahib vilifies the Bush administration. Haven't most of those involved in Abu Grahib abused been charged and sentenced ?
Hmmmmmm....

[adorkablex]

Now comon - I don't care how old adorkablex is - I find most of her posts to be well reasoned even we don't always agree. She offers considered comments and argues her side of a debate with passion and concern ( except for the "witches" comment - was I included in that trio ? )



Heck no, we coonbutts have to stick together. :D Besides, I'm not even sure if it's a trio, I've got an idea that it's a duo with a phantom third party. (Where's the little ninja smiley when you need it?)

Besides I really enjoy reading the articles and links you post, I may not agree 100% with the some things you post, but I don't ever agree 100% with the things that Mesue posts. (I'm not a lefty or a righty, I'm a middle of the roader with ideas and opinions of my very own that are all over the board)
Reguardless of whether or not I agree though doesn't mean I don't learn things from the posts. I just take the knowledge that makes a difference to me and on to the next post I go :D

[Chiizii]

it just gives them another "excuse" for violence. they are going to do thier "deeds" with or without so called justifications. they are inherently violent to begin with. anything that goes against their beliefs is justification for killing

I dunno about being one race of people being more inherently violent than another race...when you add the right kind of pressure, mix in a mob mentality, there is not one human on the earth that is not capable of violence. It is one of the ugly truths about all people that many like to ignore.

I agree with it just being an "excuse". Some of these radicals have twisted things in their minds to justify the violence against each other.

[mesue]

Actually Jolie I did respond, its on pg.7.



Oh and you want to know about the cartoon and why these pics were reprinted, these new pictures of Abu Grahib were only recently released, so they are considered new news about an old scandal. The Iraqi and Arabs knew about the abuses taking place at Abu Grahib and Guantonamo long before you or I heard about it. And apparently so did the pentagon according to this report.

[mesue]

From reading your posts the only point I get is you feel sorry for the terrorists. You're like a broken record when it comes to them. You're very specific when you talk about Coalition troops abusing prisoners. But when you talk about what they, the insurgents are doing to our side, it's general statements at best. You keep signing your little petitions. If you think they're going to care, you really are in the dark.



No, I feel sorry for the 70% or more, of the innocent men, women and children being mstakenly arrested according to our own government reports and then being locked up for months and in some cases years and some beng tortured until their proven innocent of being a terrorst.

And yes I will sign my letters pleading for the kidnapped victim's release, in the past it has proven to help make a difference.

[Jolie Rouge]

No, I feel sorry for the 70% or more, of the innocent men, women and children

Can you provide any documentaion for women and children that are being detained ? By "children" do you mean 18 and under ? In the Islamic culture most are considered adults at an earlier age then here ( witness the ages of the suicide bombers )

[katgirl3]

No, I feel sorry for the 70% or more, of the innocent men, women and children being mstakenly arrested according to our own government reports and then being locked up for months and in some cases years and some beng tortured until their proven innocent of being a terrorst.

And yes I will sign my letters pleading for the kidnapped victim's release, in the past it has proven to help make a difference.

That percentage seems to be going up. I thought you said it was 65%? Now it's 70% or more. :confused:

And maybe you could direct some of that sorrow, if not towards the civilians being beheaded, towards the Iraqis being blown up by your "freedom fighters".

[mesue]

That percentage seems to be going up. I thought you said it was 65%? Now it's 70% or more. :confused:

And maybe you could direct some of that sorrow, if not towards the civilians being beheaded, towards the Iraqis being blown up by your "freedom fighters".
I answered that question in a response to Bliss several pages ago. The 65% was totally from memory, Bliss was accusng me of posting too many links and pasting too much, so I saw no point in lookng since I had heard this figure given right before the actual report came out, as it turns out my number was lower than the actual number, the red cross reports said 70-90% are innocent. I posted a link. I got to find it for Jolie, so see my next post.

[mesue]

Jolie,
Here is the report that details the 70-90% numbers that are innocent and some of the abuses along with information on who did the report. While I know these abuses took place at Abu Gharib I would think they prove that there has been abuse in the past in a US run prison and that makes it even more likely that there is truth in these allegations and reports from Guantanamo. There are plenty of reports of women and children being in Abu Gharib, if you would like I can find more. Link tv has several documentaries on about Abu Gharib if you can get that channel. As far as who is in Guananamo I don't think there is any info available.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0511-04.htm

Also there is this,

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Rueful_Rumsfeld_050704.htm
Signaling the worst revelations are yet to come, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said the additional photos show ``acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman.''

``There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist,'' Rumsfeld testified before Congress.

``If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse. That's just a fact.''
The unreleased images show American soldiers beating one prisoner almost to death, apparently raping a female prisoner, acting inappropriately with a dead body, and taping Iraqi guards raping young boys, according to NBC News.

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is ``going to get worse'' and warned that the most ``disturbing'' revelations haven't yet been made public.

``The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here,'' he said. ``We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.

[stresseater]

Veterns for peace are against the war and are will to say whatever they need to to convince people that we can all lay down the guns and be friends. :rolleyes: This is the first paragraph of the most forwarded article of the week for the common dreams site..

Published on Sunday, February 19, 2006 by CommonDreams.org
What It Means To Be A Republican
by Larry Beinhart

The vice president shoots you in the heart and in the face. Then you apologize for all the trouble it’s caused him. That’s what it means to be a Republican. nuff said

[mesue]

Veterns for peace are against the war and are will to say whatever they need to to convince people that we can all lay down the guns and be friends. :rolleyes: This is the first paragraph of the most forwarded article of the week for the common dreams site..
nuff said
If you read you would see that the two most condemning statements on the abuse of detainees from this website are quotes from Donald Rumsfeld and republican Senator Graham.
So if you don't like or agree with the website then according to you all information is irrelavant, even though these are quotes made by these two people and can be verified. What Donald Rumsfeld said was sworn testimony and as such was recorded, and Senator Graham has been quoted by practically every newspaper.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Rueful_Rumsfeld_050704.htm

In daylong sworn testimony before the House and Senate Armed Services committees, Rumsfeld offered his ``deepest apologies'' for the prisoner abuses.

Also Senator Lindsey Graham is quoted here @ msnbc as saying the same as he was quoted as saying on the veterans for peace website,

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4925942/from/RL.5/

[Chiizii]

Since this thread was started about Gitmo and the physic ability of the authors to know what is going on there without visiting, let us return to the main topic:

Ronald Rotunda, the Foundation Professor of Law at the George Mason University Law School. He is one of the most prominent scholars of constitutional law and legal ethics in the United States. (http://mason.gmu.edu/~rrotunda/bio.htm) Who has been to Gitmo several times finds the following conditions there.


While we should know about such blunders, there is another side of the story -- what the United States is doing in its prison in Guantanamo Bay. I visited several times and was given complete access to all parts of the base I cared to see. I visited the prisoners’ cells, where they were interrogated, where they played volleyball, and where they ate.

It was not what I had expected. The news media talked of each prisoner isolated in their individual cells. Most of the cells are separated by chain-link fence, so the prisoners talk to each other and play games with the checkers, chess, and backgammon that the military has supplied.

This is an American base, so the tap water is drinkable except for a few well-marked locations. The detainees, however, prefer bottled water, so they drink that while their guards drink tap water. The military even flew in fresh dates and other fruits from the Mideast so the detainees could celebrate Muslim feast days like Ramadan and Eid al Fitr in style. The International Red Cross inspects the base on a regular basis.

The detainees receive the same medical care as the soldiers. Some receive, for the very first time, eyeglasses and crucial medicine. When they are released, some have told the press that they were well-treated; others have claimed torture, but that does not mean it occurred, because the al Qaeda training manual advises its members to always claim torture.

There have been unfortunate instances where soldiers behaved very badly, and the military has punished them. For example, one detainee collected his own urine and threw it at a guard, who responded by hitting the detainee; the military responded by punishing the guard.

After the U.S. Supreme Court decisions of last year, the military created a special tribunal to decide if each detainee was properly captured. The government informs the detainee why the military is holding him and gives him an opportunity to respond and present his evidence. Some detainees waive their right to participate. In addition, the military created another level of hearings (not required by the U.S. Supreme Court) that determines if the detainee, even if a member of al Qaeda or the Taliban, should nonetheless be released because he is no longer dangerous.

Through these two proceedings, the military has released several hundred detainees from Guantanamo. Some of these releases are mistakes: about 5 percent to 10 percent of them are later recaptured or killed in battle. Others will return to battle but we will never know that. One released detainee later killed a judge leaving a mosque in Afghanistan. Another detainee, Abdullah Meshoud, bragged that he fooled interrogators into releasing him, so he could return to battle.

In other cases, the government will release someone wrongly held. For example, the military stopped a truck in Afghanistan holding about 21 people, all dressed like local farmers, along with many weapons. One of them said that he was not part of the group and was just a farmer hitching a ride on the truck. The other 20 refuse to talk to the Americans because they are infidels. They were all taken to Guantanamo and, after several months, some of the people, impressed by their treatment, started talking and confirmed the first person’s story. The military released that person. Given the fact that the terrorists masquerade as civilians, these mistakes are both very unfortunate and unavoidable.

Each cell has an arrow telling detainees where to face east when they recite their Muslim prayers. Islamic mullahs minister to the detainees in their own language, and there is a call to prayer five times a day. Each detainee receives a copy of the Quran. Sometimes detainees cut out pages of their Quran to send secret messages to each other. At least once, a detainee threw his copy down a toilet in an effort to obstruct the plumbing. (Rumors about that incident led to story, later found to be false, that a U.S. soldier had intentionally thrown a copy of the Quran down the toilet. However, the rules do not even allow the soldiers to touch the Quran.)

The military is under orders to respect the detainees’ religion. Detainees know that and use that information to their advantage. At Camp Bucca Detention Center in Iraq, the military set up tent as a mosque and told the American soldiers that they could not go there out of respect for the detainees. The detainees used that tent to build a massive underground escape tunnel over 120 meters long. The tunnel’s walls were smooth and sculpted with concrete, water and milk from the food the Americans had supplied. The detainees safely stored their tools and make-shift weapons inside this mosque because it was off limits to the guards. When the guards learned about the expected prison break from a detainee, they stopped it and the detainees fought back, using floorboards as shields, and socks filled with a cocktail of feces, dirt and flammable, slow-burning hand sanitizer. One of these crude bombs even ignited a Polaris all-terrain vehicle. On the fourth day of the riot, the guards called in air support and the detainees surrendered.

The government must treat all detainees humanely because it is the right thing to do and because that is what U.S. law requires. The government will make missteps because all human institutions are fallible. Yet we should know that there is another side to the story and the government is learning from its mistakes.

Remember the 17 men released from Gitmo back in June of 2005?
One said" "If I get a chance to fight jihad again, I will definitely go. I will not miss it." Keep that in mind next time you read about those poor innocents who have been released from Guantanamo Bay because they had no connection to terrorism.


From Lt. P.Hegseth
Forest Lake, MN
U.S. Army National Guard, Infantry,
As a recent veteran of Guantanamo Bay, I've been troubled by the willingness of some (namely this editorial page) to make uninformed inflammatory statements about the detention operations at GTMO. I believe that if any one of them had the opportunity to visit GTMO and witness the operation first hand, they would change their tone, if not their minds altogether.
Not only are the detainees treated humanely (top-notch medical care, hearty meals, recreational facilities, full access to religious observance, etc..) but I personally witnessed instances when detainees did not want to leave. It was not uncommon for my platoon to guard an airfield for hours in preparation for sending a detainee home, only to turn around and bring him back to the detention facility – because he refused to leave! These detainees are not stupid—they know that real torture and inhumane treatment await them at home. And while I know they’re not happy to be in GTMO, they rest assured that they will be treated well because Americans play by the rules.

I feel sheepish even having to defend this issue. While our servicemen (and innocent Iraqi citizens) are being blown-up and tortured overseas, the media obsesses over a handful of “mishandled� Korans and excessive air conditioning. (It’s also worth noting that these so-called instances of “abuse� at GTMO were all uncovered by internal Army investigations! It’s not as if the Army is torturing people and covering it up. On the contrary, the minute the Army gets wind of minor misconduct it swiftly removes and prosecutes those involved. This is an institution upholding the highest moral traditions of our country.) Would the terrorists do the same? No, I think they’d just wink at us…and then cut our heads off.








From your article you posted Mesue:

Lieberman...He commended Rumsfeld for apologizing for the abuse at Abu Ghraib, but added, “I cannot help but say, however, that those who are responsible for killing 3,000 Americans on Sept. 11, 2001, never apologized, those who have killed hundreds of Americans in uniform in Iraq, working to liberate Iraq and protect our security, have never apologized, those who murdered and burned and humiliated four Americans in Falujah� never apologized either.

The investigation of Abu Ghraib must not, Lieberman said, “discredit the cause that brought us to send (soldiers) to Iraq because it remains one that is just and necessary.�

[hblueeyes]

War is hell. Why is it that only the US must play by the rules. We have played by the rules and it does us no good. When they stop torture and beheading then maybe we can find a little compassion as well.

me :p

[adorkablex]

War is hell. Why is it that only the US must play by the rules. We have played by the rules and it does us no good. When they stop torture and beheading then maybe we can find a little compassion as well.

me :p


Because we agreed to play by the rules a long time ago. What's the point of invading them and being all righteous only to turn around and be like "well this isn't working, so let's try a few torture tactics".

[stresseater]

If you read you would see that the two most condemning statements on the abuse of detainees from this website are quotes from Donald Rumsfeld and republican Senator Graham.
So if you don't like or agree with the website then according to you all information is irrelavant, even though these are quotes made by these two people and can be verified. What Donald Rumsfeld said was sworn testimony and as such was recorded, and Senator Graham has been quoted by practically every newspaper Surely even you know how a couple of statements can be twisted to fit any zealots point of view. My post was reguarding the agenda of these particular sites and all I dod was quote thier words. I guess even they know they have an agenda. Yes there have been a few isolated instances of abuse which were delt with but these nuts make it sound like it is going on all the time and that simply isn't the case.

Since this thread was started about Gitmo and the physic ability of the authors to know what is going on there without visiting, let us return to the main topic: I agree and my first few posts were addressing the fact that these people have NO idea what is going on there because they haven't even been there.
Remember the 17 men released from Gitmo back in June of 2005? Not only that but several of the guys who we released due to not enough evidence have been recaptured WHILE fighting with these nuts. I guess those weren't part of the poor women, children and farmers being innocently held. ;) :rolleyes: :D :)

[mesue]

No one was twisting anyones words, they were quotes and clear ones at that. No one was saying they said it, they were quoting them word for word. And yes I am aware things can be taken out of context but you automatically dismissed it all because you did not like the website.

What do I think of former POW's showing up fighting with the resistance,you ask? Well I'm definitely not surprised, that's what I have been saying all along that by torturing and mistreating these people we are only fueling the growth of the resisance fighters.

I am not dreaming up the torture, abuse, rape and murder of some of the innocent civilan people, its all verified on videotapes, photos, and red cross reports. I am not the one saying that 70-90% of these detainees are arrested by mistake, the red cross reports say it, look it up. I am not saying there are not any terrorists being held in these prisons. But, we can't continue to treat them all with brutality and expect that when we finally decide that yes 70-90% were innocent and we made a mistake in arresting them and torturing them, then set them free, be surprised they turned around and decided to fight back.


I am saying go by the geneva covention rules for all detainees, we agreed and signed and until a few years ago the U.S. villified any other country who did not go by these rules. We condemned torture until recently. Or do you think we should torture everyone to make sure we torture the terrorists? And when is enough? And though I spoke most of the recorded abuses at Abu Gharib, it stands to reason that if it happened there it probably has happened at Guantanamo. The bottom line is, it is illegal to torture people.

[Jolie Rouge]

REFERENCE GUIDE TO THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS

Use the alphabetical index on this site to find out what the Geneva Conventions say about everything from access to grave sites to wounded prisoners of war, fully linked to the original treaties.

You can also read about the history of the Geneva Conventions, see the full texts of the Conventions, or glance at the author's note written by Maria Trombly.

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


International Rules About Soldiers

The Geneva Conventions and supplementary protocols make a distinction between combatants and civilians. The two groups must be treated differently by the warring sides and, therefore, combatants must be clearly distinguishable from civilians. Although this obligation benefits civilians by making it easier for the warring sides to avoid targeting non-combatants, soldiers also benefit because they become immune from prosecution for acts of war.

For example, a civilian who shoots a soldier may be liable for murder while a soldier who shoots an enemy soldier and is captured may not be punished.

In order for the distinction between combatants and civilians to be clear, combatants must wear uniforms and carry their weapons openly during military operations and during preparation for them.

The other exception are mercenaries, who are specifically excluded from protections. Mercenaries are defined as soldiers who are not nationals of any of the parties to the conflict and are paid more than the local soldiers.

Combatants who deliberately violate the rules about maintaining a clear separation between combatant and noncombatant groups — and thus endanger the civilian population — are no longer protected by the Geneva Convention.

International Rules About Civilians

Both the fourth Geneval Convention and the two Additional Protocols extend protections to civilians during war time.

Civilians are not to be subject to attack. This includes direct attacks on civilians and indiscriminate attacks against areas in which civilians are present.

There is to be no destruction of property unless justified by military necessity.

Individuals or groups must not be deported, regardless of motive.

Civilians must not be used as hostages.

Civilians must not be subject to outrages upon personal dignity.

Civilians must not be tortured, raped or enslaved.

Civilians must not be subject to collective punishment and reprisals.

Civilians must not receive differential treatment based on race, religion, nationality, or political allegiance.

Warring parties must not use or develop biological or chemical weapons and must not allow children under 15 to participate in hostilities or to be recruited into the armed forces.


So according to the very rules of the GENEVA CONVENTIONS - the terrorists do not earn the protections ... everytime they use a car bomb - everytime they convince a minor to become a "martyr" - everytime they kidnap civilians - everytime they kidnap journalist - everytime they beat and abuse their victims - everytime they video a beheading and broadcast it - everytime they target a market place, a school, a hospital, a clinic THEY place themselves beyond those protections.

[Jolie Rouge]

The bottom line is, it is illegal to torture people.

Yes , it is. Please notify the terrorists.

[mesue]

Yes , it is. Please notify the terrorists.

So is your answer for fighting terrorism to act and become like them? Is that what you are saying by posting the above? Sure it is a smart alleck, off the cuff remark and I can appreciate that humor wise, but one could also read it as if you're saying, they don't respect that law, so why should we? You are going to condemn (I hope) the terrorist's actions but in answer to my point of it is illegal you post the above.

Tell me Jolie how do think we should treat these people? I have given you confirmed reports of rape and child rape and murder and torture, 70-90% of these people being detained are innocent. So would you prefer to see our people acting on America's behalf behave like the terrorists themselves or following the rules of the Geneva Convention? While I am assuming it is ok with you to torture the terrorists, is it ok with you to torture the 70-90% of people who later turn out to be innocent? If you believe they should be tortured, how much?

[Jolie Rouge]

We are not bombing mosques.

We are not kipnapping a bus full of Iraqi police recuits and shooting them in the back of the head.

We are not targeting innocent civilians going about their daily lives.

We are trying to stop the carnage - but you don't get that.

Have we ever held a prisoner on tape and had their beg and plead for their lives - only to murder them in cold blood and broadcast their brutal death all over the world ? No that was the BAD GUYS. I guess your solution is that we send them a nice FTD bouquet of flowers and promise that we will all be friends.

[Jolie Rouge]

I love you mesue -- I just don't understand where you are coming from sometimes.

It is too late to take this up tonight. Sleep tight, hun. ((hugs))

[Bliss]

Mesue, I have the perfect solution to your problem. Since you believe 70 -90% of the prisoniers are "innocent" people. Write a letter to G.W Bush electing to house these "innocent" people. This way, you can protect the "innocent" people from the "barbaric treatment" they all encounter from the soldiers. And, the best part - reality will hit you hard. :D

Does it sound like a perfect plan? Would you actually deal with these "innocent" people on a personal level, if given the means & space?

[mesue]

Mesue, I have the perfect solution to your problem. Since you believe 70 -90% of the prisoniers are "innocent" people. Write a letter to G.W Bush electing to house these "innocent" people. This way, you can protect the "innocent" people from the "barbaric treatment" they all encounter from the soldiers. And, the best part - reality will hit you hard. :D

Does it sound like a perfect plan? Would you actually deal with these "innocent" people on a personal level, if given the means & space?
Offering to house these people would only get me locked up.

You keep accusing me of saying that 70-90% of these people being detained are innocent but those numbers are not mine, that statement is not mine, all of that is from an official red cross report. I am not the one who came up with that, do you think I just dreamed this stuff up and decided to come here and post it? The red cross an organization with no political agenda, a group most people consider trustworthy gave the report with that information?

[Bliss]

I never gave you credit of dreaming the stuff up you post about...I said, "Since you believe...." You've already posted countless times where you're getting your information.

The red cross is a reliable source for information because.........?

The red cross is trustworthy? When did this happen?

[mesue]

I never gave you credit of dreaming the stuff up you post about...I said, "Since you believe...." You've already posted countless times where you're getting your information.

The red cross is a reliable source for information because.........?

The red cross is trustworthy? When did this happen?
I have no reason to distrust them and in the past when the red cross reported on human right abuses in other countries our government condemned that nation based on the red cross reports. We have always thought their reports were good enough before when they reported on Americans being abused. So why do you doubt them?

[Jolie Rouge]

? The red cross an organization with no political agenda, a group most people consider trustworthy gave the report with that information?

Having dealt with the Red Cross in the last months - I can not agree with this statement. While the Red Cross volenteers are the best in the world; the corporate entity that is the Red Cross today has a *defined* political agenda.

BTW - nice editing job. The remark I posted to tease you was answered with the first sentence of your reply before I signed off for the night. Why did you come back and edit in two more paragraphs to your answer instead of just posting after I told you goodnight ? To place a whole different *definately negative* spin to your remarks ??

Researching into your abuse numbers - it seems that a great many of these claims of abuse are being levelled at the UN and coolition forces - NOT US troops. hhmmmmm...
Where is that thread on the UN Peacekeeper's abuses ???

[Bliss]

Researching into your abuse numbers - it seems that a great many of these claims of abuse are being levelled at the UN and coolition forces - NOT US troops.

I keep coming up with the same....You're not going to convince her otherwise, she has it set in her mind it's "JUST" the USA Military.

As for the red cross - Their % on abuse is different on every site you visit.

A bit off topic, I was thinking about the "innocent people" I guess one person refers to as "freedom fighters", I refer to them simply as terrorist... If the Iraqi's are oppose to what’s going on Iraq. Why not put on a uniform, pick up a rifle and fight for what they believe in. Instead of strapping on 50 pounds of Plastique and detonate it in a grocery store full of women, children and Innocent civilians, or on a bus full of school children, or in a line of people waiting to participate in their governmental process by voting.

[mesue]

Having dealt with the Red Cross in the last months - I can not agree with this statement. While the Red Cross volenteers are the best in the world; the corporate entity that is the Red Cross today has a *defined* political agenda.

BTW - nice editing job. The remark I posted to tease you was answered with the first sentence of your reply before I signed off for the night. Why did you come back and edit in two more paragraphs to your answer instead of just posting after I told you goodnight ? To place a whole different *definately negative* spin to your remarks ??

Researching into your abuse numbers - it seems that a great many of these claims of abuse are being levelled at the UN and coolition forces - NOT US troops. hhmmmmm...
Where is that thread on the UN Peacekeeper's abuses ???
Because I was editing it while you had typed those two posts, my keyboard is fried and I am using an onscreen keyboard until hubby has time to hook up my new one. It takes more time to use the onscreen keyboard. Anyway I was editing that during the time you posted. So no I was not trying to sneak something in, I had no idea that you had already responded until I reposted with the new edit.

In answer I have never said it was all US troops, if you bothered reading the NBC report I posted, it clearly points out that the young Iraqi boys raped was in US custody, but were raped by Iraqi police and believed to be videoaped by the US.

See here is what I am hearing from you; it is believed that coalition forces did some of these abuses, and maybe they did, but that still does not discount the detainees(men,women and children) that were in US custody and videtaped and photographed being raped, sodomised, tortured and in some cases murdered, the ones in US custody were under US authority.

I am not saying that all of our military are doing these horrible deeds, of the military there I believe that 99% of them are NOT doing these things, its the 1 % that are probably responsible for these horrible acts and I think that the majority of these horrific incidents of abuse would be stopped were there clear defined rules applied such as the geneva convention rules that we agreed to and always went by before. You and others keep saying the terrorists don't go by these rules, that's right they don't, that's why their called terrorists. If we sink to that level are we any better and will the rest of the world see us as any better?

[excuseme]

A bit off topic, I was thinking about the "innocent people" I guess one person refers to as "freedom fighters", I refer to them simply as terrorist... If the Iraqi's are oppose to what’s going on Iraq. Why not put on a uniform, pick up a rifle and fight for what they believe in. Instead of strapping on 50 pounds of Plastique and detonate it in a grocery store full of women, children and Innocent civilians, or on a bus full of school children, or in a line of people waiting to participate in their governmental process by voting.

You raise an excellent point Bliss. Perhaps when we understand the answer we can have a better grasp on why things go on as they do in the Middle East and actually accomplish something. I think part of the answer is that there are 3 Iraqs and they don't want to live together as brothers.

[trixntara]

I personally dont feel sorry for the captives--they dont give a **** when they literally take a saw and cut off our soldiers' heads and have it all over the internet. I think they get what they deserve.

[Njean31]

I personally dont feel sorry for the captives--they dont give a **** when they literally take a saw and cut off our soldiers' heads and have it all over the internet. I think they get what they deserve.


don't you mean blowing up our soilders? i believe they have only done the video-beheadings on civilians.

[YNKYH8R]

Like I've said all along. GC or no GC there should be basic human rights. No matter what you status or nationality you should be have right to fair trial and legal representation. If people are truely guilty then why not prosecute?

[Jolie Rouge]

Military: No Gitmo guard abuse evident
By MICHAEL MELIA, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 4 minutes ago

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - An Army officer who investigated possible abuse at Guantanamo Bay after some guards purportedly bragged about beating detainees found no evidence they mistreated the prisoners — although he did not interview any of the alleged victims, the U.S. military said Wednesday.

Col. Richard Bassett, the chief investigator, recommended no disciplinary action against the Navy guards named by Marine Sgt. Heather Cerveny, who had said that during a conversation in September they described beating detainees as common practice.

In an affidavit filed to the Pentagon's inspector general, Cerveny — a member of a detainee's legal defense team — said a group of more than five men who identified themselves as guards had recounted hitting prisoners. The conversation allegedly took place at a bar inside the base.

"The evidence did not support any of the allegations of mistreatment or harassment," the Miami-based Southern Command, which oversees Guantanamo Bay Naval Base in southeastern Cuba, said in a statement.

Investigators conducted 20 interviews with "suspects and witnesses," the Southern Command said. Bassett did not interview any detainees, said Jose Ruiz, a Miami-based command spokesman.

"He talked to all the parties he felt he needed to get information about the allegations that were made," Ruiz said by telephone from Miami.

Bassett's findings were approved by Adm. James Stavridis, the head of the Southern Command.

The investigation began on Oct. 13 and was expanded ten days later to include a similar allegation from a civilian employee who recounted a conversation between a female guard and a male interrogator, according to the statement. Following Bassett's recommendations, Stavridis said a "letter of counseling" should be sent to the female guard who allegedly initiated a "fictitious account" of detainee abuse.

Bassett also accused Cerveny of filing a false statement during a brief meeting with her at the Marine base at Camp Pendleton, Calif., her boss, Marine Lt. Col. Colby Vokey, said last week.

Vokey, who had filed the complaint about possible detainee abuse to the inspector general's office that included Cerveny's affidavit, could not immediately be reached for comment Wednesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070207/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/guantanamo_abuse_probe;_ylt=AhAUpfST25nreXEMWRB0le ys0NUE

[vistarus]

Êóïëþ Windows Êóïëþ Office -2000/XP/2003 [email protected]
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[Jolie Rouge]

Torture at Guantanamo Bay ?

Waiting for the next Harry Potter book to arrive

Guantanamo potty about Potter
29/03/2007 16:52 - (SA)

Guantanamo Bay - "War on terror" detainees at Guantanamo are avid Harry Potter readers and eagerly await the next book in the series featuring the schoolboy wizard, the camp librarian says.

While religion tops the reading lists of the overwhelmingly Muslim detainees, Harry Potter was a big favourite, said the chief librarian at the US-run prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. "When you get to fiction, definitely Harry Potter," said the librarian, who would only give her first name, Maggie.

The camp has even pre-ordered the next instalment, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hollows, which is due out later this year. "They're all waiting for number seven to come out," she told reporters.

The library staff offers the inmates, described as "enemy combatants" posing a threat to the United States, a choice of books once a week, she said. "They take a variety of things out for the detainees to choose from," she said. "The library is one of the most popular things here."

The librarian said surfing and fishing were the main interests for Australian inmate David Hicks, who pleaded guilty on Monday to a single charge of supporting terrorism. Hicks, who is expected to be sentenced later this week and eventually transferred back to his native Australia, was an "avid reader" who had built up his own collection of books during his five-year detention. "He almost has his own library. He has quite a few items that people from Australia send him," she said. He had numerous books about salt-water fishing, as well as books about surfing in Australia and the Great Barrier Reef, she said.

Some 385 detainees are held under elaborate security at the camp located at the remote US naval base in southeast Cuba. Hicks is the only detainee to have been charged so far under newly created military tribunals overseen by the US Defence Department.

Former detainees have alleged they suffered abuse and torture during their detentions, charges the US government denies.

http://www.news24.com/News24/Entertainment/Abroad/0,,2-1225-1243_2090797,00.html


:rolleyes:

[Jolie Rouge]

Not lost in translation
Mon Apr 9, 7:02 AM ET

From the world of unsurprising news comes this: The 15 British sailors and marines freed by Iran last week were treated worse than the world knew: They were blindfolded, kept in isolation and lined up against a wall while guards cocked guns behind their heads, making the prisoners think they were about to be shot.

This is very much Iran's standard, barbaric procedure, akin to what was done to British troops captured earlier in the war and to the treatment of hostages seized at the U.S. Embassy in Tehran in 1979.

What's more instructive is the reaction.

Even before news of the prisoner treatment broke, Iran suffered international rebuke for seizing the Brits as they conducted United Nations - sanctioned ship inspections in what at worst were disputed waters between Iraq and Iran. There will be more criticism, no matter President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's absurd claims that he was being magnanimous in setting the troops free. His behavior strengthened the case for economic sanctions aimed at ending Iran's quest for nuclear weapons. This is good news because they appear to be having some effect.

More sobering is the way the incident played on the opinion pages of newspapers in Muslim countries.

Saudi Arabia's Arab News called this a "triumph for the Iranians," and Pakistan's Daily Times said it drew a sharp contrast between what the Iranians do with prisoners and what U.S.-led allies do in places such as Guantanamo. Dubai's Khaleej Times wondered mockingly why there had been "no hoods, no dogs or leashes," as at Abu Ghraib.

Such commentary is a useful reminder of how the Western world and the Muslim world seem to reside in parallel universes.

Blunders such as Abu Ghraib are quickly exploited to justify Muslim brutality. Never mind that America investigated abuse and punished the perpetrators while Iran revels in its behavior. It's the image that sticks.

If the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is useful for housing terrorist suspects, it is at least as useful as a propaganda tool for Osama bin Laden and others. This does not mean that the war on terrorism should be fought with kid gloves. But that war is in large part a battle for hearts and minds, and in this context, we should be smart enough not to put weapons in the hands of the enemy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070409/cm_usatoday/notlostintranslation;_ylt=Au7goHPtuzjFoBJlOy6_ZNSs 0NUE

See also :
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/06/video-royal-marine-captain-says-fighting-back-was-not-an-option/


The American soldier's code of conduct

Apropos of the British sailors and marines' release and their humiliation at the hands of Iran, an American officer in Iraq sent me this link to the DoD's code of conduct for US soldiers:


I

I am an American, fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

II

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

III

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

IV

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

V

When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

VI

I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

***

My Army friend writes that the release of the British servicemen "was no coincidence, and was Iran's response to the escalation of measures against its nuclear program." He urges that we open our eyes:

The world was distracted by the captured sailors incident, when it should have been focused on Iran's nuclear intransigence. Instead Britain lost face and Iran became the benevolent captor. In my view, the incident on the border on September between US forces and border-violating Iranian forces was an earlier attempt by Iran to achieve a similar IO effect by capturing US forces, staging video in Iranian territory, parading them around on TV, and acting magnanimous in their release.
This would, of course, forced us to deal with them face to face immediately before the GWB spoke to the UN (as well as Ahmadinejad). The problem is, of course, that US forces fight back and we don't allow ourselves to be paraded like fools for the world to see (see below).

Britain's shame is Iran's gain. Iran failed in September, but not this time, yet no news source has come to the conclusion that Iran had perhaps tried this before (even though they've been doing it for 30 years).


***

Reader A. e-mails about the code of conduct:

"We had to memorize it in basic. When I got to my unit, we had to recite it whenever we saw the Battalion Commander and he asked us to. I can still recite it to this day and I got out in 1992."

[Jolie Rouge]

2 Abu Ghraib charges dropped
By DAVID DISHNEAU, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 39 minutes ago

FORT MEADE, Md. - A military judge on Monday dismissed two of the most serious charges against the only officer charged with abusing detainees at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison after an investigator acknowledged he failed to read the defendant his rights. :rolleyes:

Army Lt. Col. Steven L. Jordan, 51, of Fredericksburg, Va., is the last of 12 Abu Ghraib defendants to be court-martialed. He still faces four counts, including cruelty and maltreatment of detainees.

His trial was expected to start later Monday with the selection of a jury of five to 15 members, all higher in rank than Jordan.

Jordan, the former director of the prison's interrogation center, was charged after photographs surfaced showing low-ranking U.S. soldiers assaulting and humiliating naked detainees at Abu Ghraib in late 2003 and early 2004. Jordan isn't in any of the pictures, but he is accused of allowing the mistreatment to escalate.

Jordan has argued that he is a scapegoat who, because he is a reservist, is considered expendable.

In court Monday morning, prosecutor Lt. Col. John P. Tracy announced that the investigator, Maj. Gen. George Fay, had contacted prosecutors Sunday to say that he "misspoke" when he testified during a pretrial hearing that he had advised Jordan of his rights during an interview in 2004.

In that 2004 interview, Jordan had told Fay he never saw detainees being abused and never saw nude detainees.

The judge, Army Col. Stephen R. Henley, granted the government's motion to dismiss two charges that were based on those statements: making a false official statement, punishable by up to five years in prison, and obstruction of justice, punishable by up to three years.

Jordan still is charged with disobeying Fay's order not to discussing the investigation with others. The three other counts refer to the treatment of prisoners. Jordan is charged with failure to obey a regulation, punishable by up to two years in prison; cruelty and maltreatment of detainees, punishable by up to one year; and dereliction of duty, which carries a maximum prison sentence of six months.

Fay interviewed many other soldiers during his investigation. In his report, he concluded that Jordan's tacit approval of violence during a weapons search on Nov. 24, 2003, "set the stage for the abuses that followed for days afterward."

The search, known as the "roundup," followed an episode in which a Syrian detainee fired at Jordan and other soldiers with a handgun he had obtained from Iraqi police officers, according to investigative records.

Jordan's defense, led by Capt. Samuel Spitzberg contends that although Jordan was the titular head of the interrogation center, he spent most of his time trying to improve soldiers' deplorable living conditions at Abu Ghraib.

The defense argued during an October hearing that interrogation conditions were set by two other officers: Col. Thomas Pappas, an intelligence brigade commander who was the highest-ranking officer at Abu Ghraib, and Capt. Carolyn Wood, leader of a unit within the interrogation center called the Interrogation Command Element.

Neither Pappas nor Wood has been charged with crimes. Pappas was reprimanded and fined $8,000 for once approving the use of dogs during an interrogation without higher approval.

Eleven enlisted soldiers have been convicted of crimes at Abu Ghraib. The longest prison term was given to former Cpl. Charles Graner Jr., of Uniontown, Pa., who was sentenced in January 2005 to 10 years for assault, battery, conspiracy, maltreatment, indecent acts and dereliction of duty.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070820/ap_on_re_us/abu_ghraib_jordan;_ylt=AsFWEux7L6WHvhace3sdL6xH2oc A