BBC Translation of 'Bin-Laden tape'

[tngirl]

My message to you is about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way to end it.

I had not intended to speak to you about this issue, because, for us, this issue is already decided on: diamonds cut diamonds.

Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving and becoming better, while your conditions are to the contrary of this.

However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy.

Bush said: It is better to fight them on their ground than they fighting us on our ground.

In my response to these fallacies, I say: The war in Iraq is raging, and the operations in Afghanistan are on the rise in our favour, praise be to God.

The Pentagon figures indicate the rise in the number of your dead and wounded, let alone the huge material losses, and let alone the collapse of the morale of the soldiers there and the increase in the suicide cases among them.

So, just imagine the state of psychological breakdown that afflicts the soldier while collecting the remnants of his comrades' dead bodies after they hit mines, which torn them. Following such situation, the soldier becomes between two fires. If he refuses to go out of his military barracks for patrols, he will face the penalties of the Vietnam butcher, and if he goes out, he will face the danger of mines.

So, he is between two bitter situations, something which puts him under psychological pressure - fear, humiliation, and coercion. Moreover, his people are careless about him. So, he has no choice but to commit suicide.

What you hear about him and his suicide is a strong message to you, which he wrote with his blood and soul while pain and bitterness eat him up so that you would save what you can save from this hell. However, the solution is in your hand if you care about them.

The news of our brother mujahideen, however, is different from what is published by the Pentagon.

This news indicates that what is carried by the news media does not exceed what is actually taking place on the ground. What increases doubts on the information of the White House's administration is its targeting of the news media, which carry some facts about the real situation.

Documents have recently showed that the butcher of freedom in the world [US President Bush] had planned to bomb the head office of al-Jazeera Space Channel in the state of Qatar after he bombed its offices in Kabul and Baghdad, although despite its defects, it is [Al-Jazeera] one of your creations.

Jihad is continuing, praise be to God, despite all the repressive measures the US army and its agents take to the point where there is no significant difference between these crimes and those of Saddam.

These crimes include the raping of women and taking them hostage instead of their husbands. There is no power but in God.

The torturing of men has reached the point of using chemical acids and electric drills in their joints. If they become desperate with them, they put the drill on their heads until death.

If you like, read the humanitarian reports on the atrocities and crimes in the prisons of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing.

In fact, reports indicate that the defeat and devastating failure of the ill-omened plan of the four - Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz - and the announcement of this defeat and working it out, is only a matter of time, which is to some extent linked to the awareness of the American people of the magnitude of this tragedy.

The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.

If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.

To go back to where I started, I say that the results of the poll satisfy sane people and that Bush's objection to them is false.

Reality testifies that the war against America and its allies has not remained confined to Iraq, as he claims.

In fact, Iraq has become a point of attraction and recruitment of qualified resources.

On the other hand, the mujahideen, praise be to God, have managed to breach all the security measures adopted by the unjust nations of the coalition time and again.

The evidence of this is the bombings you have seen in the capitals of the most important European countries of this aggressive coalition.

As for the delay in carrying out similar operations in America, this was not due to failure to breach your security measures.

Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished, God willing.

Based on the above, we see that Bush's argument is false. However, the argument that he avoided, which is the substance of the results of opinion polls on withdrawing the troops, is that it is better not to fight the Muslims on their land and for them not to fight us on our land.

We do not object to a long-term truce with you on the basis of fair conditions that we respect.

We are a nation, for which God has disallowed treachery and lying.

In this truce, both parties will enjoy security and stability and we will build Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by the war.

There is no defect in this solution other than preventing the flow of hundreds of billions to the influential people and war merchants in America, who supported Bush's election campaign with billions of dollars.

Hence, we can understand the insistence of Bush and his gang to continue the war.

If you have a genuine will to achieve security and peace, we have already answered you.

If Bush declines but to continue lying and practicing injustice [against us], it is useful for you to read the book of "The Rogue State", the introduction of which reads: If I were a president, I would halt the operations against the United States.

First, I will extend my apologies to the widows, orphans, and the persons who were tortured. Afterwards, I will announce that the US interference in the world's countries has ended for ever.

Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help.

If you win it, you should read the history. We are a nation that does not tolerate injustice and seek revenge forever.

Days and nights will not go by until we take revenge as we did on 11 September, God willing, and until your minds are exhausted and your lives become miserable and things turn [for the worse], which you detest.

As for us, we do not have anything to lose. The swimmer in the sea does not fear rain. You have occupied our land, defiled our honour, violated our dignity, shed our blood, ransacked our money, demolished our houses, rendered us homeless, and tampered with our security. We will treat you in the same way.

You tried to deny us the decent life, but you cannot deny us a decent death. Refraining from performing jihad, which is sanctioned by our religion, is an appalling sin. The best way of death for us is under the shadows of swords.

Do not be deluded by your power and modern weapons. Although they win some battles, they lose the war. Patience and steadfastness are better than them. What is important is the outcome.

We have been tolerant for 10 years in fighting the Soviet Union with our few weapons and we managed to drain their economy.

They became history, with God's help.

You should learn lessons from that. We will remain patient in fighting you, God willing, until the one whose time has come dies first. We will not escape the fight as long as we hold our weapons in our hands.

I swear not to die but a free man even if I taste the bitterness of death. I fear to be humiliated or betrayed.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

BBC Monitoring selects and translates news from radio, television, press, news agencies and the internet from 150 countries in more than 70 languages. It is based in Caversham, UK, and has several bureaus abroad.

[jdfan]

Sounds like the democratic rhetoric in most of his statements. He fails to mention that we are over there because "he" decided to attack us in our country. WOW!! That is some propaganda machine he has in the works.

[YNKYH8R]

Sounds like the democratic rhetoric in most of his statements. He fails to mention that we are over there because "he" decided to attack us in our country. WOW!! That is some propaganda machine he has in the works.
ROTFL! You fail to mention the past that Bin Laden shares with us...oh well. In the minds of "Americans" that will never sink in. Am I defending him? No. But this message wasn't directed entirely to us...to others it may sound a lot different.

[stresseater]

threat watch (http://analysis.threatswatch.org/2006/01/bin-ladens-message/)


bin Laden's Message
From a position of weakness - a truce offered
By Marvin Hutchens

After his longest period of silence since the US declared the War on Terror following the September 11 attacks, Usama bin Laden has released an audiotape of his thoughts on the war. The audio has been broadcast by al-Jazeera television and US analysts are reported to believe that the voice is that of bin Laden. The tape refers to events as late as the November 22 claim that President Bush wanted to attack al-Jazeera , and while it doesn’t offer a specific date, al-Jazeera reported it as being recorded in December (Dhu al-Qi’dah).

Before looking into the implications of the tape itself, if any, we might consider the circumstances that led to its release at this time. Foremost – the successful attack in Damadola, Pakistan which has reportedly resulted in the death of at least five members of al-Qaeda’s upper echelon of thugs – Midhat Mursi al-Sayyid ‘Umar, Abd al-Rahman al-Maghrebi, Abu Ubaydah al-Misri, Marwan al-Suri and Khalid Habib. Knowing that the US was aware of and not all that short of killing Ayman al-Zawahiri, in his supposed safe zone would have certainly played a role in the release of this tape. Additionally bin Laden, as we’ll see in his message, is not isolated from reports on the progress of the War on Terror, from the internal barometer of the American public opinion on the war as reported in polls or by politicians aiming to influence public opinion. bin Laden must be aware of the success of Iraq’s election in December and the failure of al-Qaeda in Iraq to establish local support among Iraq’s people – even those who oppose the US led coalition. And bin Laden also would be aware of the impending replacement of US forces in Southern Afghanistan with NATO forces.

bin Laden’s message is to address, in his words “the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way to end it.” By containing his commentary to the war as it is fought in Iraq and Afghanistan, bin Laden acknowledges, perhaps without knowing it, that al-Qaeda is not determining the fronts in the War on Terror. al-Qaeda has had successful strikes in other countries but the US and coalition allies have determined the primary fronts in the war, and al-Qaeda is forced to operate primarily in those environments.

bin Laden goes on to note that it wasn’t his intention to speak about this issue.

“I had not intended to speak to you about this issue, because, for us, this issue is already decided: diamonds cut diamonds.

Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving, becoming better, while yours are the opposite.”

bin Laden then explains that the “repeated fallacies of your President Bush” are behind his current message. It is unlikely that the president is the politician most likely behind bin Ladens’s latest comments as many have supplied, at least in spirit, a message similar to bin Laden’s view of American efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. bin Laden believes that the American public is no longer supportive of the war in Iraq and therefore, after noting that the war in Iraq is “raging” and Afghanistan rising in the favor of bin Laden’s allies, he offers a cessation of activities with us. A truce. Bin Laden claims that he’d be supportive of a truce with the US so that he, and his followers, can build Iraq and Afghanistan.

Of course, bin Laden’s argument is as dubious as similar arguments offered here in the US and abroad. bin Laden is losing the war in Iraq, he’s lost Afghanistan and while he is likely to attempt to regain prominence there, his options are increasingly limited. So a cease fire would serve him well. What value it would provide the American people is not apparent. Ah… bin Laden offers an answer to that – it would be in “preventing the flow of hundreds of billions to the influential people and war merchants in America, who supported Bush’s election campaign with billions of dollars.” Now from bin Laden’s perspective – trying to see why the American president and his supporters might not like his option or better yet, echoing the anti-war zealots in the public arena – that is the only flaw in the plan.

It is also worth pointing out that bin Laden notes that no attacks have occurred in the US since 9/11. His reason for this is that their planning continues - not our increased security measures. While he may like to believe our anti-terror activities have had no impact, that his planners deaths, redirection to efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, and efforts to avoid capture aren’t significant in the lack of a successful attack in the US for over four years – he isn’t capable of providing an argument to support his view. But then who could?

What this message most strikingly does is shine the light on the real difficulties bin Laden and al-Qaeda face. Rather than an adamant message of his impending victory, or of our eventual doom, this message makes arguments based on a inflated belief that the American will to succeed in the War on Terror is waining while where it matters most the opposite is more true. bin Laden recognizes that a truce would improve al-Qaeda’s ability to recruit in the increasingly less supportive Sunni population in Iraq. Afghanistan does present an opportunity for al-Qaeda – if – and only if, you believe that NATO forces set to replace US forces in Afghanistan are less capable and that the US will not increase activities in Afghanistan should the security situation worsen.

What bin Laden has done by releasing this message is to announce that he is alive, perhaps signal his supporters to carry on, and once again appeal to the president’s detractors in hopes for a political victory where his forces are incapable of giving him one on the battlefield.

January 19, 2006 05:04 PM
That's exactly what he is doing he's trying to appeal to the people who sympathize with him/. Me personally, what ever his connection to the US before he started attacking us matters not a whit to me. Just like if someone is a good person(not saying he wsas before the attacks) and then does something bad it doesn't mean you stop hunting him just because he use to be good. I am glad Bush is not taking his faux truce offer.

[Chiizii]

ROTFL! You fail to mention the past that Bin Laden shares with us...oh well. In the minds of "Americans" that will never sink in.

As far as I am concerned Bin Laden used the training by the US to gain leadership. Keeping in mind that when the Afghan War was going on, so was the Cold War and the Soviet Union was the enemy. The leadership he gained in the Afghan wars was to ultimately establish Al Qaeda. Then after the Gulf War he shifted his focus upon the US, due to the idea that US was on the "most scared lands" in his opinion. He is a radical and uses anyone to obtain his goals.

The last time ObL gave a truce Spain was bombed.

[YNKYH8R]

What about the mention of "The Rogue State"?

[tngirl]

What about the mention of "The Rogue State"?

This is a book that was written by William Blum who formerly worked for the state department. After checking on the premise of this book I can see why it is part of the OBL Book Club.

Since I have not read the book I cannot really comment on its accuracy. But some want to point out the "bad things" the US has done but do not bother to delve deeper to find the reasons these things were done. Bad things are done to the US all the time world-wide.

There is usually a reason as to why we "interfere" in one place and not another, mostly it is based on world stability. A civil war in one country may not affect the entire world by its outcome like that of another country.

[YNKYH8R]

This is a book that was written by William Blum who formerly worked for the state department. After checking on the premise of this book I can see why it is part of the OBL Book Club.

Since I have not read the book I cannot really comment on its accuracy. But some want to point out the "bad things" the US has done but do not bother to delve deeper to find the reasons these things were done. Bad things are done to the US all the time world-wide.

There is usually a reason as to why we "interfere" in one place and not another, mostly it is based on world stability. A civil war in one country may not affect the entire world by its outcome like that of another country.
I jumped up to #26 on amazon's book ordering. I might check it out.

[Chiizii]

Or is it the Rogue State written by Noam Chomsky? Chomsky makes me laugh.

[mesue]

Is the US government still looking for him in a cave in Afghanistan?

[stresseater]

No I don't think so. I think that I had heard they firgured out from clues in the tape that he is in a more civilized place than a cave. My money is on Iran as to where he is hiding but really he could be anywhere in the arabic world. Too bad we can't get him to wear a striped shirt. ;) :D

[mesue]

If the man is alive he had to have gotten out to a more civilized place within at least the first week after we attacked Afghanistan looking for him. I'm assuming we went there to get him because we knew he was there at that time instead of because we knew he had been there in the past. Bin Laden had to have dialysis every three days and without he would be dead within a week. Even if he had a dialysis machine with him he still needed clean water and electricity to run it. My guess is he is dead and has been dead for sometime now.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html
[quote][A Bush administration official] said U.S. intelligence is that bin Laden needs dialysis every three days and "it is fairly obvious that that could be an issue when you are running from place to place, and facing the idea of needing to generate electricity in a mountain hideout." [CNN]

Dr. Sanjay Gupta: Bin Laden would need help if on dialysis
Renal dialysis -- talking about hemodialysis -- is something that really is reserved for patients in end-stage renal failure. That means their kidneys have just completely shut down.

The most common cause of something like that would be something like diabetes and hypertension. Once that's happened, if you're separated from your dialysis machine -- and incidentally, dialysis machines require electricity, they're going to require clean water, they're going to require a sterile setting -- infection is a huge risk with that. If you don't have all those things and a functioning dialysis machine, it's unlikely that you'd survive beyond several days or a week at the most. [CNN][quote/]

[Cessie]

Actutally it's really doubtful that he even had a kidney infection much less dialysis - it's the rumor that just won't go away.

http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20060103-093215-2153r.htm

even snopes debunks much of the chatter over the kidney story though they list it as undetermined

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/kidney.htm

Either way he's probably in Iran or Indonesia, both would protect him.

[mesue]

http://www.globe-intel.net/?p=44

In recent weeks, both MI6 and the CIA have established that bin Laden has received from China a portable kidney dialysis machine. But it requires electricity to power it.
Drones, unmanned aircraft that US Special Forces launched from Afghanistan last week, have reported that the area along the border has lost all its power supplies

[tngirl]

http://www.globe-intel.net/?p=44

In recent weeks, both MI6 and the CIA have established that bin Laden has received from China a portable kidney dialysis machine. But it requires electricity to power it.
Drones, unmanned aircraft that US Special Forces launched from Afghanistan last week, have reported that the area along the border has lost all its power supplies

If this information is true....then I guess OBL is alive and well and located somewhere where there is electricity.

[mesue]

I think you are misunderstanding that they have established the fact that he had bought this equipment in the past, not recently. Which proves the fact that he did have to have dialysis. The man is probably dead.

[tngirl]

So, what you are saying is that OBL is speaking to us from the grave? Or are you saying that Allah or Muhammad spoke to him before he died and told him to make these tapes with mention of the future events so we would all believe he is still alive? The tapes are authentic so he has to be alive.

[mesue]

The tapes are authentic, really, who says so? Our government, no they would not lie to us, would they? How many times in the past do we know for a fact that they lied to us? I know of several.

There are plenty of people who say the tapes are fake http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4075
who would be in the know. Ask anyone you know with medical knowledge if Bin Laden could have survived in a cave for a week without dialysis.

They the Bush Administration needs us to stay in Afghanistan to have bases built to guard the oil pipeline and saying they are giving up looking for Bin Laden because he is dead would mean Americans would expect the US to get out of Afghanistan. Wasn't it you that said yes we went into Iraq to get oil, well we need bases to guard the pipeline, if you look their all being built right along the route the pipeline was originally going to take.

Now tell me tngirl do you really think the American people who are already wanting their soldiers home would want to stay in Afghanistan if we were no longer searching for Bin Laden?

[Chiizii]

Isn't the author of the article on the above link the man who said that Bush didn't choke on the pretzel? Seriously, can you find information that isn't attached to opinionated people that live to hate Bush? Just asking, because it gets really tough believing some of the information from the links you post.

[tngirl]

The tapes are authentic, really, who says so? Our government, no they would not lie to us, would they? How many times in the past do we know for a fact that they lied to us? I know of several.

There are plenty of people who say the tapes are fake http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4075
who would be in the know. Ask anyone you know with medical knowledge if Bin Laden could have survived in a cave for a week without dialysis.

They the Bush Administration needs us to stay in Afghanistan to have bases built to guard the oil pipeline and saying they are giving up looking for Bin Laden because he is dead would mean Americans would expect the US to get out of Afghanistan. Wasn't it you that said yes we went into Iraq to get oil, well we need bases to guard the pipeline, if you look their all being built right along the route the pipeline was originally going to take.

Now tell me tngirl do you really think the American people who are already wanting their soldiers home would want to stay in Afghanistan if we were no longer searching for Bin Laden?

If I am not mistaken, I do believe I said something on the lines that one of the many reasons of going to Iraq is the oil. Did not say we went "to get" oil and I did not say the war was for the oil and I did not say the war was about the oil. Considering we basically have no oil of our own and we are forced to buy from other nations...it isn't a good idea to have a crazy person in charge of that oil that will stoop to blackmail using the oil as leverage against us. As you know any instability in the area pushes oil prices up.

Everyone wants to sit around and b**ch about gas and oil prices. The only alternative is to drill and produce more of our own oil. But can we do that? No we can't because the tree huggers won't allow it. There is no reason that we should be so dependent on other countries for oil when we could be producing our own. We are not even allowed to build more refineries to produce more gas and this affects the price of gas in our country.

But you know, if the government said it was snowing in DC you would believe they were lying even if The Weather Channel was standing there with their cameras showing us the worst blizzard to ever hit the area.

[mesue]

You are willing to admit that this war is partly about oil but wonder why I don't trust or believe the president and the government who refuses to acknowledge this. Why should I believe them? They have lied about too many things. The truth keeps coming out. But tngirl you should be the last person to accuse someone of not believing something just because they don't want to. Everything that comes out on these people you chalk up to the person revealing the truth as nothing more than a troublemaking Bush hater. Even when there is proof to back their claims up. You have excuse after excuse for their failures and their lies. Even when it is blatantly obvious they have lied to us. Heck I even posted one straight from the white house website. and you still defend them.

As for our only alternative on supplying ourselves with oil is to take the oil, is to go against the UN and invade a sovereign country and kill over 100,000 Iraqis, not to mention our own losses which number 2265 dead, and then there are the 16549 wounded. There are many other alternatives available, wind power, solar power and alternative fuels. All these things would be safer for our enviroment and for our own personal health and our loved ones health. The other day I watched the weather channel and heard them give out red alert ratings for the air quality in some parts of California. The very air we breathe is becoming dangerous to our own health, we live in a toxic enviroment, more and more people are developing respiratory problems, but yet we have done nothing to fix our energy crisis but chase more oil to pollute the enviroment. If Bush had taken that money he put into this war and focused it into more reseaarch into creating alternative energy and giving people large tax breaks and funding to help people convert to more solar and wind power energy we would all be better off. Then maybe your greatgrandchildren won't have to wear a mask outside to play. If we continue to pollute the earth the plants will die, the animals will die, and the humans will die.

[mesue]

Isn't the author of the article on the above link the man who said that Bush didn't choke on the pretzel? Seriously, can you find information that isn't attached to opinionated people that live to hate Bush? Just asking, because it gets really tough believing some of the information from the links you post.
Actually the CIA and the British equivalent established the fact that Bin Laden purchased the dialysis equipment. As for people saying the tape is not real there are plenty, not just this guy. Here is another one, I doubt you will like this article either but do you really think I am going to find anything bad about Bush on a Bush loving website which is the only thing you folks would accept and then you would swear some Bush hating liberal hacked it. LOL Here is an article about how researcher in switzerland says its a fake.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2526309.stm

Researchers in Switzerland have questioned the authenticity of the recent audio recording attributed to Osama Bin Laden.
A team from the Lausanne-based Dalle Molle Institute for Perceptual Artificial Intelligence, Idiap, said it was 95% certain the tape does not feature the voice of the al-Qaeda leader

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2006/200106Bin_Laden_Tape.htm

[tngirl]

As for our only alternative on supplying ourselves with oil is to take the oil, is to go against the UN and invade a sovereign country and kill over 100,000 Iraqis, not to mention our own losses which number 2265 dead, and then there are the 16549 wounded.[\QUOTE]

This is NOT what I said and this is NOT what our country has done

[QUOTE]If Bush had taken that money he put into this war and focused it into more reseaarch into creating alternative energy and giving people large tax breaks and funding to help people convert to more solar and wind power energy we would all be better off.

If Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Daddy Bush had all done this also.....so lets put the blame for ALL of our problems on George W.

The only "accusation" that you have gotten straight off of a White House web site is the one used to claim that Bush had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. The wording of one sentence is "strange" but could be put down to a slip of the tongue or the use of the wrong words. Remember, you guys like to point out the fact that W isn't an eloquent speaker. So for me to believe the claims that you were making in that particular thread, you would have to provide me with more definite proof than what was provided.

I do not believe everything that comes out of the White House. I never have, no matter who was President. I do not agree with everything ANY President has done. You just have not posted anything that many people believe, myself included. Why you get yourself in such a "temper" because I chose to defend my own thoughts and beliefs is beyond me.

Let's talk about the immigration and illegal alien topic. Now here is something that I believe our government is NOT doing enough about.

[mesue]

I'm not getting myself in a temper. I don't get mad at you or anyone else here over discussing politics or anything else.

Actually Carter did start a program to search for and improve alternatives means of fuel and energy, due to the fact that we had an energy crisis when he was President, you might recall we could only buy gas on certain days. As soon as Reagan got in he stopped funding for the program. Reagan IMO was one of the worst presidents we ever had.

As to what is on the white house website is the statement W made about no wiretapping without a warrant on US citizens after he had already authorized the NSA to wiretap without a warrant. Most people would call that a blatant outright lie.

[tngirl]

There is something that I need to look up when I have time. Right now I am in the middle of getting ready to go out, so, when I get back I will see if I can't find something on this. It will actually show the failure on all of our Administrations for the last couple of decades. In one of the northern states they have been producing an alternative fuel for a long time now....if I am not mistaken, it was since WW2. But what I am saying is that you cannot blame just the current administration for certain things when past administrations have done nothing to solve the problems either. But a lot of it is actually the fault of the people themselves because we do not want to give up certain luxuries or a way of life....in other words...we do not want to change our habits or be inconvienced.

On the wiretap link....to be honest, I never even looked at it. Every President has lied to us for various reasons. Or they have failed to tell us everything for various reasons. We are in a war whether you agree with the war or not and our government is obligated to do what they deem necessary to protect our nation. There is actually something in the FISA rules about the wiretaps....once again I will have to look that up when I get back home.

As for my comment about your getting in a "temper", that comes from the fact that you feel you have to insult my intelligence in order to try to make your point. I admit that I have dished out a few "insults" after someone decides to make a debate personal. Even though I find your "ideas" at times to be laughable (as you find mine the same), I actually enjoy our little "debates".

[Chiizii]

It has also been said that OBL has had heart disease, hepatitis, liver or bone cancer, lung disease, diabetes, low blood pressure and obscure connective-tissue syndrome. As well as suffered a stroke, wounded, and exhaustion.

So according to many sources the man has more ailments than I do; OBL says his kidneys are fine. So really it is all just a pack of hear-say and rumors about his health.

But the point of the matter is that it doesn't matter if the man is dead or alive; has purchased a machine to clean his kidneys or not. None of this stops radicals from their plans, attacks and their type of expression of the Muslim belief. It is just more material to argue over, keeps researchers and the professionals busy...and in the end doesn't matter if it is real or not.

What does matter is that the tape gives clues, suggestions, and ideas of what the radicals are thinking. This is important. OBL being alive or not has nothing to do with it, those who are still alive that follow the same or similar beliefs of this spoiled, rich man are the concern.


As for the comment that broadly suggest that people who love Bush would not accept a negative comment about him.
Let me clear my name quickly so you have no illusions on how I feel about the President.

First and always I respect the Office of the President of the United States of America. I believe in the idea of the words "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" But none of this has anything to do with what I feel for the actual man who sits his precious backside in the leather chair inside the Oval Office nor the precious backsides of any of the elected members of the Senate and Congress. To be very frank, the last President I actually liked was Gerald Ford. God Bless his heart and lungs.

With that being said, I like this President very little. Which if he knew about it he wouldn't blink a bit. I don't think a President, Senator or Congress member should be a popularity contest at all. I believe that they are elected to do a job, their salaries need to be cut, and that a whole lot of time is wasted on stupid rhetoric against the President. I don't have a problem with people speaking against the President rather I think it goes too far and nothing gets done but speaking against the President.


The only comfort in life I have about the war is that back in WWII I know of family members that said many of the same things that are said today about war and I imagine that has always been someone saying something similar in any war.

Now I am off to watch the news about Cheney and the shooting accident.

[tngirl]

Ok, here is a link if you would like to read it. It is actually a blog that has this information posted. I just found it interesting reading. But rest assured...the blogger is actually a democrat....lol. This guy's blog is one of the more popular ones in our area. I am just too lazy and tired to c& p.

http://www.mainstreetj.com/2006/02/11/62

[mesue]

Ok, here is a link if you would like to read it. It is actually a blog that has this information posted. I just found it interesting reading. But rest assured...the blogger is actually a democrat....lol. This guy's blog is one of the more popular ones in our area. I am just too lazy and tired to c& p.

http://www.mainstreetj.com/2006/02/11/62
Ok I read part of this guys blog about FISA and after reading I think this guy needs to read about FISA.
You can wiretap anyone other than an American citizen without a warrant. Once an American citizen is involved somehow in the conversation, they need a warrant to listen, but they can listen for 72 hrs while they get that warrant so no info is lost. It takes one day to get a warrant through the FISA courts, so far as I know they(government agencies) have never been turned down on A FISA warrant once they make their case, now that is pretty sad.
Now given that info, you tell me why they would need to NOT go through FISA?
Since 911, the Bush Administration has chipped away at our rights through the PATRIOT ACT and now this. How did we go from discussing Bin laden to FISA, oh yeah thats what the guys blog is about.

As to blaming the current administration more than others on the failure to protect the enviroment, you tell me why he is worse.
In the past legislation passed to make companies comply with new enviromental laws, notice the keywords here, companies had to comply
Bush administration passes new tougher enviromental laws, yes you heard that right tougher, but here is where he messes up the enviroment more than any other President, he makes it the companies choice on whether they want to comply or not, it is simply up to them if they want to meet those standards or not, it is up to them if they want to comply. Bush is a company man, any miner will tell you that's no compliment.

Some scientists are already saying we are passed the point of being able to turn this mess around. I hope their wrong. We humans are parasites on the earth's back and eventually we are going to destroy the host and by doing that we are going to destroy ourselves.


http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/05/1455234&mode=thread&tid=25
Tens of Thousands in 30 Cities Protest Global Warming
Tens of thousands of people demonstrated Saturday in 30 cities across the globe to call on world governments to do more to halt global warming. The largest protests took place in Montreal which is hosting the UN Climate Change Conference -- the largest international conference ever on global warming. In London environmentalists held banners declaring President Bush to be wanted "for crimes against the planet." In Washington, drivers of hybrid cars circled the White House. And in New Orleans, residents held a "Save New Orleans, Stop Global Warming" party in the French Quarter. On Saturday environmental groups presented a petition signed by 600,000 Americans urging President Bush to do more to stop global warming. The Bush administration has rejected the Kyoto Protocol to limit greenhouse gases. The United States emits 25 percent of the world's greenhouse gases even though it has just five percent of the world's population.

[mesue]

It has also been said that OBL has had heart disease, hepatitis, liver or bone cancer, lung disease, diabetes, low blood pressure and obscure connective-tissue syndrome. As well as suffered a stroke, wounded, and exhaustion.

So according to many sources the man has more ailments than I do; OBL says his kidneys are fine. So really it is all just a pack of hear-say and rumors about his health.

But the point of the matter is that it doesn't matter if the man is dead or alive; has purchased a machine to clean his kidneys or not. None of this stops radicals from their plans, attacks and their type of expression of the Muslim belief. It is just more material to argue over, keeps researchers and the professionals busy...and in the end doesn't matter if it is real or not.

What does matter is that the tape gives clues, suggestions, and ideas of what the radicals are thinking. This is important. OBL being alive or not has nothing to do with it, those who are still alive that follow the same or similar beliefs of this spoiled, rich man are the concern.


As for the comment that broadly suggest that people who love Bush would not accept a negative comment about him.
Let me clear my name quickly so you have no illusions on how I feel about the President.

First and always I respect the Office of the President of the United States of America. I believe in the idea of the words "in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" But none of this has anything to do with what I feel for the actual man who sits his precious backside in the leather chair inside the Oval Office nor the precious backsides of any of the elected members of the Senate and Congress. To be very frank, the last President I actually liked was Gerald Ford. God Bless his heart and lungs.

With that being said, I like this President very little. Which if he knew about it he wouldn't blink a bit. I don't think a President, Senator or Congress member should be a popularity contest at all. I believe that they are elected to do a job, their salaries need to be cut, and that a whole lot of time is wasted on stupid rhetoric against the President. I don't have a problem with people speaking against the President rather I think it goes too far and nothing gets done but speaking against the President.


The only comfort in life I have about the war is that back in WWII I know of family members that said many of the same things that are said today about war and I imagine that has always been someone saying something similar in any war.

Now I am off to watch the news about Cheney and the shooting accident.

Well even a president is not above the laws and when he breaks them then yes it is important to point that out. Especially when breaking those laws leads into taking away the few rights we have left in this country.

[Chiizii]

Mesue, there was nothing in what I said that disagrees with you above statement. If you read it carefully you will see that I don't like the sitting President and haven't like any of the Presidents since 1974. My concern with the wiretapping is that it gave away to the terrorist a weak point in order to take advantage. Period. My mind isn't wrapping around some illegal action for I have read the FISA information and have some real world experience to know how things work in matters such as gathering intelligence during war time. I think it depends upon your focus on where anyone stand with this wiretapping issue, I am more concerned about the safety of Americans.

[mesue]

I am concerned with the safety of Americans as well but that seems to be one of the bigger misconceptions about this whole mess is that the FISA laws will allow someone to talk to terrorists through some loophole in the law and there is no loophole, the law is already geared toward the benefit of law enforcement. At any rate I am not sayng they should not listen but there is no reason for them to break the law.

At any rate you need not worry the democrats and the republicans are now one party, they just keep up this farce of pretending to belong to their separate parties so that they can continue to pretend shock and disdain and pretend to do something about what is going on and then in the end after all the fuss, nothing will get done except they will continue to pass legislation that benefits corporations and take their bribes. Nothing has changed and nothing will change, in the end it will remain as always, the rich man dances while the poor man pays for the band.

[Jolie Rouge]

I am concerned with the safety of Americans as well but that seems to be one of the bigger misconceptions about this whole mess is that the FISA laws will allow someone to talk to terrorists through some loophole in the law and there is no loophole, the law is already geared toward the benefit of law enforcement. At any rate I am not sayng they should not listen but there is no reason for them to break the law.



you seem to be under the misconception that the terrorists adhere to any law.

[Chiizii]

At any rate you need not worry the democrats and the republicans are now one party, they just keep up this farce of pretending to belong to their separate parties so that they can continue to pretend shock and disdain and pretend to do something about what is going on and then in the end after all the fuss, nothing will get done except they will continue to pass legislation that benefits corporations and take their bribes. Nothing has changed and nothing will change, in the end it will remain as always, the rich man dances while the poor man pays for the band.

I agree that nothing is really getting done by the House and Senate.

[tngirl]

I agree that nothing is really getting done by the House and Senate.

And that is by any parties. They are all too busy "fighting" and jockeying for political positions for the upcoming elections. :eek:

[mesue]

Jolie

No I never said the terrorist adheres to any laws, but that has nothing to do with the FISA court. In the search for them the rest of us have rights and the law provides for law enforcement to be able to do their jobs without walking all over our rights. Its as simple as that.

From what I am reading from you Jolie the police should have the right to do a cavity search if they think there is a terrorist nearby. How far is too far for you? Since you are perfectly willing to allow them to read all your corespondence, listen in on all your phone calls, search your home without your knowing it and also install surveillance equipment to listen in on all your private conversations within your home, including cameras, all without a warrant. How much is too much without anyone thinking of your rights?

Using your logic, that is not enough after all a terrorist would not respect your privacy or rights or dignity so why should anyone within law enforcement or the government? Like for instance when you go to take a flight maybe we should have body cavity searches for all passengers including children and infants. That would include everyone in your family, just because their cute and innocent does not matter, they might be potential felons.(Potential felons, no I did not coin that phrase, Jeb Bush did.)

When you come out of the store perhaps it should be common practice to do a complete search of you and everyone else and all purses and bags. Why not? A thief might be present and the store has the right to make sure you are not stealing from them. A thief does not respect your rights, privacy and dignity so why should the store?

There has to be boundaries and guidelines to go by in the pursuit of terrorists and criminals because we all are not terrorists or criminals and should not be treated like one. So how much is too much according to what you say terrorists don't go by laws and so therefore we must not either, so where do you draw the line?

[tngirl]

When you come out of the store perhaps it should be common practice to do a complete search of you and everyone else and all purses and bags. Why not? A thief might be present and the store has the right to make sure you are not stealing from them. A thief does not respect your rights, privacy and dignity so why should the store?

When was the last time you went to Wal-Mart? They stop everyone before they walk out the door to look at their receipt and what they have in their cart. They are treating me like a thief everytime they do this. Everytime you walk in a store you are on camera and and being watched. How is this not an invasion of my privacy and rights?

[mesue]

When was the last time you went to Wal-Mart? They stop everyone before they walk out the door to look at their receipt and what they have in their cart. They are treating me like a thief everytime they do this. Everytime you walk in a store you are on camera and and being watched. How is this not an invasion of my privacy and rights?
Believe me I agree, I do not like it one bit having to show my receipt after paying and having them sometimes look through the contents of the bags and compare whats in there to the receipt. It makes me feel as though they think I am a thief and that is exactly what they think because their treating me like one. Now that you mention this tngirl I wonder if what they are doing to their customers is legal? Because once you have paid for the items their yours, not walmarts. It would seem to be an unlawful search.

Also I don't know if you are aware of it or not but many stores also have people watching you in the dressing rooms take off your clothes to see if you are stealing this would seem to be a total invasion of privacy perpetrated on us all to prevent theft. We are not innocent until proven guilty here we are treated as the guilty until we are proven innocent.