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janelle
03-25-2005, 09:54 PM
Nobel Prize nominated MD states Schiavo could be rehabilitated but is being mistreated

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by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
March 7, 2005

Clearwater, FL (LifeNews.com) -- Despite the contention of Terri Schiavo's estranged husband Michael and courts that have allowed him to starve her to death, a doctor nominated for the Nobel Prize says he believes medical therapies are still available that could help Terri partly recover from her disabled state.

Dr. William Hammesfahr is an internationally recognized expert on cases of brain-injured patients. He has been identified in helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long term disability, and return to work.

Terri Schiavo's injury, hypoxic encephalopathy, is a type of stroke that he treats every day with success.

"We, and others I know, have treated many patients worse than Terri and have seen them regain independence and dignity," Hammesfahr said.

"There are many approaches that would help Terri Schiavo," Dr. Hammesfahr explained. "I know, because I had the opportunity to personally examine her, her medical records, and her X-rays."

"It is time to help Terri, instead of just warehousing her," he added. "She would have benefited from treatment years ago, but it is not too late to start now."

This isn't the first time Hammesfahr has discussed Terri's plight.

Last year, he explained that, after examining Terri, he believed that she could eventually eat and drink on her own. He also said he believes Terri would be able to talk and have good use of one arm and one hand should be given proper rehabilitative treatment.

Hammesfahr also said he thought Terri would eventually be able to transfer herself from a wheelchair to a bed.

"The patient is not in a coma," concluded Hammesfahr said after observing Terri. "She responds to specific people best. She tries to please others by doing activities for which she gets verbal praise."

He says Terri's eyes clearly fixate on her family and she tries to follow the simple commands her parents give her.
"She looks at you, she can follow commands," Hammesfahr said.

Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999.

Related web sites:
Terri Schiavo's parents - http://www.TerrisFight.org
Hammesfahr Neurological Institute - http://www.hni-online.com


Printed from: http://www.lifenews.com/bio748.html

jedmatters
03-26-2005, 04:44 AM
This doctor did a 15 minute look over. He never read her medical records, and he did not do a CAT scan nor did he run any kind of medical tests.
No one said she was in a coma, she is in a presistent vegetative state. That is not a coma, that is a liquified brain.

She will not recover, she did not have a stroke, her brain was starved of oxygen after her hert stopped.

YankeeMary
03-26-2005, 06:33 AM
One of the related sites listed with this article is Terrisfight.org so therefore, I consider it to be one sided. I would have held the doctor with more merit IF Terri's site wasn't linked to it. It says to me that the article is based more on feelings then on facts. I think it would be truly wonderful if it were true, but obviously it isn't since actual court records state that Micheal has done everything possible for her, before allowing her to pass.

janelle
03-26-2005, 07:06 AM
I think that is true. But looking at her site and her makes her more real to us and not just a women in a hospital bed dying.

kidzpca
03-26-2005, 08:19 AM
This claim also goes to show the Parents' are not in "Reality"...They are in Major DENIAL of their obviously much loved daughter. PVS is not a COMA and are treated completely differently.

Comas one can overcome, perhaps. Slight chance. Most retain their brain.

PVS...usually pertains to loss of brain...losing function, thought etc. Terri has perhaps at best 20% of a brain and 80% something else. Can't regrow a brain.

fatesfaery
03-26-2005, 08:33 AM
He was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) who is not qualified to make Nobel Prize nominations. http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

In 2001 Dr. Hammesfahr was cited by the Florida Medical Board for fraud and 'bilking' his patients for money.You can read his appeal here http://www.2dca.org/opinion/March%2026,%202004/2D03-1109.pdf
He's also listed on quackwatch.org
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/index.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tcd.html
I wouldn't be putting much stock in anything Dr. Hammesfahr has to say.

schsa
03-26-2005, 08:58 AM
All sorts of people are nominated for Nobel prizes. I could nominate myself if I wanted. And if he were so sure that he could do something why didn't he come forward and offer his services to her husband long before this? By stating what he is saying, all he is doing is building his practice.

Don't you think that if her husband thought the same thing that he would be having her treated? I believe that he loves her and would do anything for her.

delSol
03-26-2005, 11:49 AM
the whole thing is really sad, being her ein florida it seems like it is the only news that there is. I feal really bad for the family, but think they should let her go. the people protsting outside of the hospice need to get a life, if any one of them were in the same boat they would say "who are you to try to tell me what to do. No we have the crackpot lawyer that said she "yelled" "I WANT TO LIVE" ppuuuuuullleeeezze people - then how come when they took the tube out she didn't say "I WANT A HAM SANDWICH", leave her be and let her rest in peace...

menanamama
03-26-2005, 12:13 PM
the whole thing is really sad, being her ein florida it seems like it is the only news that there is. I feal really bad for the family, but think they should let her go. the people protsting outside of the hospice need to get a life, if any one of them were in the same boat they would say "who are you to try to tell me what to do. No we have the crackpot lawyer that said she "yelled" "I WANT TO LIVE" ppuuuuuullleeeezze people - then how come when they took the tube out she didn't say "I WANT A HAM SANDWICH", leave her be and let her rest in peace...
bit insensative don't you think?! and the layer did not say that. what she said was that terri seemed to respond (yelled something like "I") when the lawyer said "if only you could say i want to live." big difference between that and what you said. also...i have yet to see any evidence of an eating disorder as others have suggested.

i don't have an opinion on this matter as i am just not informed enough and could not know what i would want if it were me on either side of the aisle. all i know is that it is a horrible situation to be in!

jedmatters
03-26-2005, 12:42 PM
No we have the crackpot lawyer that said she "yelled" "I WANT TO LIVE" ppuuuuuullleeeezze people - then how come when they took the tube out she didn't say "I WANT A HAM SANDWICH", leave her be and let her rest in peace...


Good point!!!
Since all her parents and this lady (who has no records of this either audio or video) heard AHH Waaa, maybe Terri was meaning I want to die, leave me alone.

janelle
03-26-2005, 08:27 PM
Imagine you are a parent with a grown child in this condition. She can smile at them and to them she relates to them. Makes noises when they talk to her and seems to watch them when they move. Would you be so willing to let her starve to death? They think she can feel pain. These people are parents folks with the feelings of any parent watching their daughter who smiles at them---from their point of view---die. Walk a mile in their shoes before you say what they should do. If I was a spouse of someone like this I couldn't let him die. I would have to wait and pray and see what God does in His own good time.

heartlvrs
03-26-2005, 09:01 PM
I have said it once, will say again. I truly believe that she CAN be treated. NO her husband "loving??" did not allow treatment, and he dont want treatment so she cannot recover..because then she could tell them what REALLY happened and more than likely he would go to jail. I had mixed feelings before I started reading ALL I could from BOTH sides...me...couldnt do it. Look at her! REALLY look at her....shes healthy in body. Her mind may not be right..but she is HUMAN and she is breathing ON HER OWN.....I mean we sentence Scott peterson to death for killing....and now we are sentencing a INNOCENT woman to death for having an "accident"....God Bless

jedmatters
03-26-2005, 10:44 PM
Medical experts have stated that she is not smiling. Her muscles are in that position permanently. It is not a reaction to stimuli, it is a fixed look.

janelle
03-27-2005, 12:05 AM
It still breaks your heart.

delSol
03-27-2005, 04:21 AM
It still breaks your heart.

yes it does

Willow
03-27-2005, 06:39 AM
Imagine you are a parent with a grown child in this condition. She can smile at them and to them she relates to them. Makes noises when they talk to her and seems to watch them when they move. Would you be so willing to let her starve to death? They think she can feel pain. These people are parents folks with the feelings of any parent watching their daughter who smiles at them---from their point of view---die. Walk a mile in their shoes before you say what they should do. If I was a spouse of someone like this I couldn't let him die. I would have to wait and pray and see what God does in His own good time.

All of the doctors have already said that it is normal for her to make sounds and movements but it doesn't mean that she is doing it as a way of communicating. The smile she has (if you want to call it a smile) is permanent. It looks like she is smiling but her face always looks that way. I think it was God's will the first time she died.

YankeeMary
03-27-2005, 09:42 AM
It still breaks your heart.
It is very heart breaking Janelle, I agree 100%. Its heart breaking that you, me and everyone else in the nation have seen the videos. No one should have every released such personal pics and video tapes. It is heart breaking that her body has to die this way, but there is no other way. Its heart breaking that the people that she loved in life, hate one another in her death. Such a shame. I can't imagine how horrible her funeral will be, real rough on them all.

schsa
03-27-2005, 09:44 AM
At this point, no one is going to intervene and she is going to die. Nothing is going to stop it at this point. Regardless of the outcome, it is a very sad situation.

queenangie
03-27-2005, 02:08 PM
I agree so sad!

Some things like this are worse than actual death.
At least with death, she'll be with Jesus.

YankeeMary
03-27-2005, 05:00 PM
I agree so sad!

Some things like this are worse than actual death.
At least with death, she'll be with Jesus.
Angie I like to think she died 16 years ago and she has been with the Lord every since and its only her body that remains. The whole thing is horribly hard for all of those who love Terri. It has to be worse then hard.

janelle
03-27-2005, 11:00 PM
Then if she is with the Lord she is peaceful and happy. Why kill her body because we cannot stand to look at her? Keeping her alive until God decides to stop her heart is for our growth in compassion. This is God trying to teach us how to treat each other with love. We do not know nor can anyone else know what she feels, what pain she is feeling.

Willow
03-28-2005, 05:27 AM
Then if she is with the Lord she is peaceful and happy. Why kill her body because we cannot stand to look at her? Keeping her alive until God decides to stop her heart is for our growth in compassion. This is God trying to teach us how to treat each other with love. We do not know nor can anyone else know what she feels, what pain she is feeling.

God stopped her heart once already.

excuseme
03-28-2005, 05:42 AM
Maybe now God can finally decide when she lives or dies without us medelling in his affairs with the artificial feeding of Terri.

YankeeMary
03-28-2005, 05:51 AM
Then if she is with the Lord she is peaceful and happy. Why kill her body because we cannot stand to look at her? Keeping her alive until God decides to stop her heart is for our growth in compassion. This is God trying to teach us how to treat each other with love. We do not know nor can anyone else know what she feels, what pain she is feeling.
I do not have to look at her so thats not a reason in my mind to "kill" her. I do believe with all my heart thatshe told Micheal she wouldn't want to live this way. I think of it as, all measures were taken in the first 6 years, NO IMPROVEMENT all doctors involved at that point said there is no chance of recovery in any shape or form, so Micheal gave up the good fight. Prior to this, they was hope (hence the trip to California) once that failed it was over and he chose to fight for Terri's wishes. Acceptance is one of the hardest things we as human have to face. Whether it acceptance of death, a troubled child, loss of a job, loss of a loved ones love.

Linus1223
03-28-2005, 08:27 AM
He was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) who is not qualified to make Nobel Prize nominations. http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

In 2001 Dr. Hammesfahr was cited by the Florida Medical Board for fraud and 'bilking' his patients for money.You can read his appeal here http://www.2dca.org/opinion/March%2026,%202004/2D03-1109.pdf
He's also listed on quackwatch.org
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/index.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Tests/tcd.html
I wouldn't be putting much stock in anything Dr. Hammesfahr has to say.
ITA!! Thanks for the informaton...

Jolie Rouge
03-28-2005, 09:03 AM
I think of it as, all measures were taken in the first 6 years, NO IMPROVEMENT all doctors involved at that point said there is no chance of recovery in any shape or form, so Micheal gave up the good fight.

Have to disagree. In November of 1992, the malpractice suit was settled, awarding Terri 1.4 million for her care and M. $600,000 for "loss of consortiam". At that time Terri was in a rehab hospital and the doctors reported that she was "improving" and "making progress" - her doctors recomended that she be moved to another rehab hospital that specializes in brain injuries. In Febuary of 1993, M. instead moved her to a Nursing Home and when her doctor protested, he was removed from Terri's care; and replaced with a doctor who was heavily involved with the "Right To Die" movement.

Any doctor who disagreed with the assestments M. wanted to hear was replaced with someone who shared M's viewpoint -- stacking the deck against Terri. One of the doctors who testified for M. in court did so after only reviewing tapes and her files and charts - when cross-examined her stated that he had never actually seen Terri, but a doctor did not need to "see" a patient in order to make a diagnosious.

Jolie Rouge
03-28-2005, 09:07 AM
Maybe now God can finally decide when she lives or dies without us medelling in his affairs with the artificial feeding of Terri.

:confused:

Most things tend to die when food and water are withheld .... does that mean if someone refuses to feed and infant ( who can't feed themselves ) or a canatonic patient ( who doesn't interact with "our reality" ) it is an "Act of God" when they die ??

lassss
03-28-2005, 09:15 AM
ughhh I am sooo sick of hearing people say Terri smiled, moved, winked, tried to talk...etc....they were reflexes and ONLY reflexes, not thoughts, attempts etc. She cannot feel hunger or thirst or pain.....her brain is mush...there are no thoughts being processed and no chance of recovery. Her parents are dilusional at this point trying to grasp at every straw.....it's sad all around but it IS time to let go and allow Terri to go to a better place

YankeeMary
03-28-2005, 09:45 AM
Have to disagree. In November of 1992, the malpractice suit was settled, awarding Terri 1.4 million for her care and M. $600,000 for "loss of consortiam". At that time Terri was in a rehab hospital and the doctors reported that she was "improving" and "making progress" - her doctors recomended that she be moved to another rehab hospital that specializes in brain injuries. In Febuary of 1993, M. instead moved her to a Nursing Home and when her doctor protested, he was removed from Terri's care; and replaced with a doctor who was heavily involved with the "Right To Die" movement.

Any doctor who disagreed with the assestments M. wanted to hear was replaced with someone who shared M's viewpoint -- stacking the deck against Terri. One of the doctors who testified for M. in court did so after only reviewing tapes and her files and charts - when cross-examined her stated that he had never actually seen Terri, but a doctor did not need to "see" a patient in order to make a diagnosious.
You can disagree thats cool, but her guardian at law was interviewed and he said this as fact in his interview. And if I can muster up the will I will search for the article someone posted that backed this fact up. Hopefully it won't take long for me to find it, its just that there are a bazillion articles posted on this lately here.

He took her to California also for the implant electode thing can't remember correct term, where they stated no improvement. that was before the lawsuit.

YankeeMary
03-28-2005, 09:59 AM
Any doctor who disagreed with the assestments M. wanted to hear was replaced with someone who shared M's viewpoint -- stacking the deck against Terri. One of the doctors who testified for M. in court did so after only reviewing tapes and her files and charts - when cross-examined her stated that he had never actually seen Terri, but a doctor did not need to "see" a patient in order to make a diagnosious.

I agree a doctor doesn't need to see a patient when there are other doctors giving their medical expertise. I am living proof of this. I was diagnosed with a disease that docs in my town weren't familiar with, my records were then sent to them, who then told "local" docs how to diagnois me and treat me. It very common. How could you say doctors are stacking the deck when she still is the exact same way as she was when it happened? As far as Micheal not allowing testing, that hasn't kept her from improving. And you posted an article where the nurses were giving her extra treatment that was forbidden and she still hasn't improved. Please make me see that her brain is really a functional organ. Please make me understand why professional people would lie and cover up for Micheal if all you are saying is true. Why would someone risk everything for him? I mean his attorney only got something like $75.000.00 right? Is that worth everything you (his attorney) has made in his life and for the rest of it. I think there is entirely to much emotion in all of this. Its become an he said she said, this doctor that doctor, so sad, but if emotions are removed then clear decisions can be made and facts can be pointed out. Please make me see this so that I can understand how others can justify this once beautiful active woman, laying in a hospital (hospice) bed being treated as a "circus freak". I have seen video clips on her site and I do NOT think she is doing anything on command or with any consistancy. I understand the desire and the want to have her do these things but IMO they simply aren't there. I say let her body go in peace.

sccountrygrl
03-28-2005, 01:53 PM
I have sat here and read all these responses and the ones who think we should just sit here and let this poor women dehydrate until she just withers up and dies make me SICK. How do you know what she's feeling or thinking have any of you been in the situation she's in? Doubt it so you dont really know. Oh the doctors have told us that's right yeah and I guess all doctors are perfect and dont ever make misdiagnoses or mistakes hmmmmm doubt that one also.And what really puts the icing on the cake is we dont even treat animals this badly and you better believe if you starved and animal to death you would go to jail and pay a hefty fine. And to take the word of a man that did not say anything about her WISHES for 7 years and has clearly moved on with his life is unconstitutional.I surely hope and pray none of you have to sit and watch a loved one die in this manner. :mad:

lassss
03-28-2005, 02:28 PM
I have sat here and read all these responses and the ones who think we should just sit here and let this poor women dehydrate until she just withers up and dies make me SICK. How do you know what she's feeling or thinking have any of you been in the situation she's in? Doubt it so you dont really know. Oh the doctors have told us that's right yeah and I guess all doctors are perfect and dont ever make misdiagnoses or mistakes hmmmmm doubt that one also.And what really puts the icing on the cake is we dont even treat animals this badly and you better believe if you starved and animal to death you would go to jail and pay a hefty fine. And to take the word of a man that did not say anything about her WISHES for 7 years and has clearly moved on with his life is unconstitutional.I surely hope and pray none of you have to sit and watch a loved one die in this manner. :mad:


Terri died 15 years ago...brain dead...there is more activity in your yogurt then in her brain..why can't anyone understand that????? All the tests that have been done show NO brain activity....none, nada....how long does this poor woman need to be connected to a feeding tube to prove there is no chance of recovery..it has been 15 years already..it's time for the parents to let go and move on. I would never EVER allow my loved ones to be hooked up for 15+ years...Now that's torture.to see your love one lie there in a vegatative state knowing there is no hope..that's not living :mad:

jedmatters
03-28-2005, 02:51 PM
I have sat here and read all these responses and the ones who think we should just sit here and let this poor women dehydrate until she just withers up and dies make me SICK. How do you know what she's feeling or thinking have any of you been in the situation she's in? Doubt it so you dont really know. Oh the doctors have told us that's right yeah and I guess all doctors are perfect and dont ever make misdiagnoses or mistakes hmmmmm doubt that one also.And what really puts the icing on the cake is we dont even treat animals this badly and you better believe if you starved and animal to death you would go to jail and pay a hefty fine. And to take the word of a man that did not say anything about her WISHES for 7 years and has clearly moved on with his life is unconstitutional.I surely hope and pray none of you have to sit and watch a loved one die in this manner. :mad:

If your trusted doctor diagnosed you, then chances are you would believe that diagnoses. If over 15 years and over 30 doctors looked at you, and the overwhelming consensus was the same, it is a almost 100% probability that those doctors did not mess up.

If your vet removed your dog's feeding tube, but kept him in the office... it is not a crime. It is under the vet's care. BUT... why compare a dog to Terri?

And what part of Michael's life is unconstitutional? He is following the laws (notice the courts agree with him), and nowhere in the constitution does it say that an adult married child should follow his or her parents' decisions or way of life.

sccountrygrl
03-28-2005, 03:02 PM
If she was on a ventilator I could totally understand I still wouldnt trust the word of her husband but I could understand pulling the plug that to me is extrodinary measures to keep someone alive not a feeding tube.And no she is not dead her heart still beats lungs,kidneys are all still functioning without any help so no she is not dead! I had a friend that was in an pvs due to a motorcycle accident and he looked nothing like Terri he laid there with no movement what so ever never opened his eyes never responded to anything and he died of a blood clot to the heart a few months after his accident but his mother was willing to take him home and care for him because thats what a mother does!!! What is the harm in letting the mother take care of Terri? Who is it hurting? None of us can sit here and measure quality of life because quality of life is different for everyone.Is this to say we should start starving severely mentally retarded children and adults? I dont think so.They say that Michael S was a very controlling man and I personally believe this is his last bit of control over Terri he shall decided when she dies.He also wants her cremated hmmmmm I wonder why? If the lord had wanted Terri to come home he could have took her long ago but he hasnt so who are we to say when she dies especially by dening her food and water she is being killed she is not dying from her heart attack and this is inhumane no matter how you look at it.



I AM NOT IN ANY WAY COMPARING TERRI TO AN ANIMAL!!!! I am saying you can not legally stave an animal. Ever watch animal planet people go to jail all the time for not feeding their animals but it's okay to stave a women to death. :mad:

kidzpca
03-28-2005, 03:42 PM
I agree a doctor doesn't need to see a patient when there are other doctors giving their medical expertise. I am living proof of this. I was diagnosed with a disease that docs in my town weren't familiar with, my records were then sent to them, who then told "local" docs how to diagnois me and treat me. It very common. How could you say doctors are stacking the deck when she still is the exact same way as she was when it happened? As far as Micheal not allowing testing, that hasn't kept her from improving. And you posted an article where the nurses were giving her extra treatment that was forbidden and she still hasn't improved. Please make me see that her brain is really a functional organ. Please make me understand why professional people would lie and cover up for Micheal if all you are saying is true. Why would someone risk everything for him? I mean his attorney only got something like $75.000.00 right? Is that worth everything you (his attorney) has made in his life and for the rest of it. I think there is entirely to much emotion in all of this. Its become an he said she said, this doctor that doctor, so sad, but if emotions are removed then clear decisions can be made and facts can be pointed out. Please make me see this so that I can understand how others can justify this once beautiful active woman, laying in a hospital (hospice) bed being treated as a "circus freak". I have seen video clips on her site and I do NOT think she is doing anything on command or with any consistancy. I understand the desire and the want to have her do these things but IMO they simply aren't there. I say let her body go in peace.


My dot was diagnosed with Luekemia in September 2002 after many doctors' could not agree on the exact type since there are many. First it was Juvenile Myelomonocytic Luekemia...but was too old for the diagnosis and would likely die quickly with JMML...Then it was Chronic Monocytic Luekemia...CML; Then Chronic Myelomonocytic Luekemia; CMML but was the youngest and wrong gender to be diagnosed with the disease.,then another...

Dot was too ill to galavant across the country so her local doctors' sent blood samples accross the country. It went down to the wire and the 3 top Blood specialists/Luekemia and other blood disorders could not agree Two said CMML the other JMML....

Yet after her spleen was removed and examined at length...a diagnosis CMML the youngest child ever diagnosed and only one of 100 kids diagnosed with the disease. Thus, DOCTORS CAN DIAGNOSE WITHOUT SEEING YOU PHYSICALLY. 'Cause it was the correct diagnosis and she was treated successfully.

YankeeMary
03-28-2005, 06:06 PM
I have sat here and read all these responses and the ones who think we should just sit here and let this poor women dehydrate until she just withers up and dies make me SICK. How do you know what she's feeling or thinking have any of you been in the situation she's in? Doubt it so you dont really know. Oh the doctors have told us that's right yeah and I guess all doctors are perfect and dont ever make misdiagnoses or mistakes hmmmmm doubt that one also.And what really puts the icing on the cake is we dont even treat animals this badly and you better believe if you starved and animal to death you would go to jail and pay a hefty fine. And to take the word of a man that did not say anything about her WISHES for 7 years and has clearly moved on with his life is unconstitutional.I surely hope and pray none of you have to sit and watch a loved one die in this manner. :mad:
I am sorry that I make you sick. I had to watch my brother die in a way worse manner then Terri is dying I promise you that, drugs barely took the pain away for him. We loved him more than anything but not more then we loved ourselves so we unplugged him, not an easy decision but THE RIGHT ONE! I have not personally been there myself but I have seen this type of death several times. I just love how you march into this thread and judge everyone because our beliefs or our opinions are different than yours and make a comment that people make you sick. There are so many great people her that agree with me but also disagree with me and I would never say that about any of them over someone I do not know. I am a daughter and a mother, I can tell you right here and right now without a shadow of a doubt that I WOULD NEVER EVER HUMILATE MY CHILD THE WAY TERRI'S PARENTS HAVE HUMILATED HER!!! Plastering her photos and videos for the world to see, their plot didn't work. Sure it made people feel sorry for them and Terri but it didn't save her "life". Ultimatly it only showed the world that someone that was once so active and beautiful has turned into a shell of a person. Bless her heart, I for one am so sorry that I ever laid my eyes on pics and videos of her. May she eventually rest in peace.

As for your second post the Good Lord took her 15 years ago, man has kept her body alive for 15-16 years now. God has given man the ability and the resources to keep her body alive. The LAW is allowing her Husband, Micheal, not her parents to finally let her body rest (meaning die).

Cessie
03-28-2005, 06:23 PM
He also wants her cremated hmmmmm I wonder why?


Michael has OK'd an autopsy and asked that the results be made public. Maybe people will finally be able to understand the situation then and let this poor woman rest in peace.

sccountrygrl
03-28-2005, 06:46 PM
My comments are not directed at any one person and yes your right I dont know anyone here nor do I know Terri and her family I am saying it literally makes me sick at my stomach how someone could think it is okay to watch someone literally be made to starve to death. I'm sorry for your loss with your brother but as you said your family made the decision to pull the plug on your brother her family wants to take care of her so what's wrong with that?
Michael has moved on with his life and has done so for the past 11 yrs so why dont he let this family take care of their daughter and sister as they have done for the past 15 yrs. I dont think of her as being humilated because of her photos on TV and no it doesnt look like their going to be able to save her life and all that shows me is America has come down to killing whom ever as long as the spouse can stand up in court and be our living will whether it be true or false and the courts will air on side of death. So sad.And if she was dead 15 yrs ago we wouldnt be here having this discussion today all of her organs work all on there on so no she isnt dead.

janelle
03-28-2005, 07:05 PM
sccountrygrl-----ITA very well put. If her brain was not working or there her heart would have stopped beating.

freebielover
03-28-2005, 07:06 PM
If the lord had wanted Terri to come home he could have took her long ago but he hasnt so who are we to say when she dies especially by dening her food and water she is being killed she is not dying from her heart attack and this is inhumane no matter how you look at it.



I just want to comment on this. Technically, because the courts ruled in favor of removing the feeding tube, isn't the Lord taking her home now? I mean He must have decided to take her, thus the reason why she is being let go. If He truly wanted her to live then she would survive even without food no? I'm truly not trying to be mean, just understanding the rationale.

janelle
03-28-2005, 07:09 PM
We are responsible to do God's work here on earth. We are His hands and feet. But most people think this is not what Jesus would do. We can also be the devil's hands and feet.

freebielover
03-28-2005, 07:31 PM
We are responsible to do God's work here on earth. We are His hands and feet. But most people think this is not what Jesus would do. We can also be the devil's hands and feet.


Thanks for clarifying, wasn't raised religious and I'm slightly skeptical so I have trouble understanding certain aspects sometimes.

Jolie Rouge
03-28-2005, 09:27 PM
If she was on a ventilator I could totally understand. I still wouldnt trust the word of her husband but I could understand pulling the plug - that to me is extrodinary measures to keep someone alive, not a feeding tube.

And no she is not dead her heart still beats lungs,kidneys are all still functioning without any help so no, she is not dead!

I had a friend that was in an pvs due to a motorcycle accident and he looked nothing like Terri - he laid there with no movement what so ever; never opened his eyes; never responded to anything; and he died of a blood clot to the heart a few months after his accident. But his mother was willing to take him home and care for him because thats what a mother does!!!

What is the harm in letting the mother take care of Terri? Who is it hurting?

None of us can sit here and measure quality of life because quality of life is different for everyone. Is this to say we should start starving severely mentally retarded children and adults? I dont think so.

They say that Michael S was a very controlling man and I personally believe this is his last bit of control over Terri - he shall decide when she dies.

He also wants her cremated hmmmmm I wonder why? If the lord had wanted Terri to come home he could have took her long ago but he hasnt, so who are we to say when she dies especially by dening her food and water. She is being killed, she is not dying from her heart attack, and this is inhumane no matter how you look at it.


I have had serious reservations about the legal presedence being set by this case .....


Disability groups on Schiavo
David Shuster


This week, we've all been following the twists and turns in the Terri Schiavo dispute as well as the effort by Congress to change the outcome in federal court. My previous blogs make it quite clear what I think of the horrifying political opportunism displayed by our lawmakers.

However, one can disagree with what Congress did and still believe that Terri Schiavo should be protected. To that end, I'd like to turn over the rest of this blog to a group of people who deal with these issues every day. "The Arc of the United States" is a leading advocacy group for disabled americans. Steve Eidelman is their executive director and has submitted an op-ed to newspapers across the country. He writes, in part:

"For people with disabilities and their families, the Schiavo case represents a slippery slope and raises the possibility that the right to life of people with significant intellectual and or physical disabilities might one day be questioned...

"... Today, there are thousands of people with various physical and cognitive disabilities who use feeding tubes as their normal means of getting food and water. For these people, a feeding tube is not life support or heroic intervention. It is a simple way of getting hydration and nourishment. When they are hospitalized for any reason – however minor – they risk having their normal means of eating and drinking be classified as as “extraordinary treatment” or “life support.”

"...The disability community has grappled with these issues in the past and has come to the conclusion that in such cases, it is best to assume that life is preferable over death. Is that not what the Schiavo case is all about? Laws governing surrogate decision-making vary among states and are often the result of well-funded advocacy from a narrow group of professionals. In most cases, disability organizations were not included in changes of statutes on the state level, and the drafters of those statues did not take into account the views of those with disabilities..."

"...Our society must stop using the term “persistent vegetative state.” Too many people with significant disabilities have been called “vegetables,” and this must stop. It is beyond demeaning; it is dehumanizing. In fact, some of the people who use the term most freely are doctors, and what comes next is a discussion of the death or warehousing of the individual labeled that way."

"...When a person has serious disabilities, the debate should not be about whether or not they are going to “get better” some day. For millions of Americans, disability is a fact of life,every day of our lives. People with disabilities have wonderful lives. And some have lousy lives. In that way, they are just like other Americans. Just because a person has a significant disability does not mean that they do not love their life. It does not mean that they should be assumed to be better off dead."

"...It is time for a call to conscience to both the Right and the Left. Guardianship should not be a death ship. People like Terri Schiavo are persons under the law, and they deserve constitutional protection."

"...The disability community is grateful that so many in Congress supported Terri Schiavo’s right to live, even though we are concerned about the precedent they set. We would like to see them follow up with the same level of concern for making sure we can provide care and support for the millions of Americans with disabilities by supporting Medicaid Community Attendant Services and Supports Act, which would allow people receiving Medicaid funding to have a life, not just stay to alive.– We call on them to ensure continued appropriate funding of Medicaid and other programs that people need..."

"...Terri Schiavo’s case is every family’s nightmare. Disability doesn’t have to be a nightmare. Even if our nation disagrees on how we define compassion, we must certainly agree that all lives are equal under the law."

Amen. Thank you Steve Eidelman from "Arc of the United States" for your group's articulate and thought provoking op-ed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287283/#050325a

(( looking for the whole & entire piece ... ))

YankeeMary
03-29-2005, 04:57 AM
We are responsible to do God's work here on earth. We are His hands and feet. But most people think this is not what Jesus would do. We can also be the devil's hands and feet.
Jesus said "We are not of this World". Yet you are willing to make Terri a part of it???

YankeeMary
03-29-2005, 05:09 AM
My comments are not directed at any one person and yes your right I dont know anyone here nor do I know Terri and her family I am saying it literally makes me sick at my stomach how someone could think it is okay to watch someone literally be made to starve to death. I'm sorry for your loss with your brother but as you said your family made the decision to pull the plug on your brother her family wants to take care of her so what's wrong with that?
Michael has moved on with his life and has done so for the past 11 yrs so why dont he let this family take care of their daughter and sister as they have done for the past 15 yrs. I dont think of her as being humilated because of her photos on TV and no it doesnt look like their going to be able to save her life and all that shows me is America has come down to killing whom ever as long as the spouse can stand up in court and be our living will whether it be true or false and the courts will air on side of death. So sad.And if she was dead 15 yrs ago we wouldnt be here having this discussion today all of her organs work all on there on so no she isnt dead.
Actually, I didn't want him put on machines before they put him on it. But I didn't run to court to stop it.
The fact that Micheal has moved on in his life shouldn't even be considered here. Dealing with what the issue is, is what decisions should be based on not feelings. She has a HUGE amount of brain damage. Ok here it is...do we let her live like this (the way her parents want it) or do we honor her wishes, and let her go (the way Micheal wants it). Medical reports and hospital notes from qualified nurses should be the only thing considered. The other stuff is irrelevant. Its about TERRI, not Micheal or her parents. Thats the bottom line. They want to bring in all this stuff against Micheal and use it keep her alive. Isn't it funny no one says anything bad about her parents? I am sure they did things that Terri would have considered to be wrong and "sinful". I wondered if they whipped (not beat) her when she was growing up. Did they step in and try to help their daughter with mental/emotional disorders she obviously suffered from? I do not think so, because Terri didn't tell them. Why didn't she tell them? See what I am saying to many emotional issues being dealt with not enough medical. Try to remove your heart and feelings and look at this case objectively, not easy but it can be done, thats how the doctors are able to cope with their lives everyday, thats how the judges are able to make decisions, thats how all the appellet courts are able to up hold rulings, not because they are crooked or being bribed or are worthless, they are just looking at the medical facts that surround this medical case.

YNKYH8R
03-29-2005, 06:06 AM
I have sat here and read all these responses and the ones who think we should just sit here and let this poor women dehydrate until she just withers up and dies make me SICK. How do you know what she's feeling or thinking have any of you been in the situation she's in? Doubt it so you dont really know. Oh the doctors have told us that's right yeah and I guess all doctors are perfect and dont ever make misdiagnoses or mistakes hmmmmm doubt that one also.And what really puts the icing on the cake is we dont even treat animals this badly and you better believe if you starved and animal to death you would go to jail and pay a hefty fine. And to take the word of a man that did not say anything about her WISHES for 7 years and has clearly moved on with his life is unconstitutional.I surely hope and pray none of you have to sit and watch a loved one die in this manner. :mad:
I've heard this song before..... :p

freebielover
03-29-2005, 06:07 AM
Actually, I didn't want him put on machines before they put him on it. But I didn't run to court to stop it.
The fact that Micheal has moved on in his life shouldn't even be considered here. Dealing with what the issue is, is what decisions should be based on not feelings. She has a HUGE amount of brain damage. Ok here it is...do we let her live like this (the way her parents want it) or do we honor her wishes, and let her go (the way Micheal wants it). Medical reports and hospital notes from qualified nurses should be the only thing considered. The other stuff is irrelevant. Its about TERRI, not Micheal or her parents. Thats the bottom line. They want to bring in all this stuff against Micheal and use it keep her alive. Isn't it funny no one says anything bad about her parents? I am sure they did things that Terri would have considered to be wrong and "sinful". I wondered if they whipped (not beat) her when she was growing up. Did they step in and try to help their daughter with mental/emotional disorders she obviously suffered from? I do not think so, because Terri didn't tell them. Why didn't she tell them? See what I am saying to many emotional issues being dealt with not enough medical. Try to remove your heart and feelings and look at this case objectively, not easy but it can be done, thats how the doctors are able to cope with their lives everyday, thats how the judges are able to make decisions, thats how all the appellet courts are able to up hold rulings, not because they are crooked or being bribed or are worthless, they are just looking at the medical facts that surround this medical case.

Very well said.

YNKYH8R
03-29-2005, 06:11 AM
My comments are not directed at any one person and yes your right I dont know anyone here nor do I know Terri and her family I am saying it literally makes me sick at my stomach how someone could think it is okay to watch someone literally be made to starve to death. I'm sorry for your loss with your brother but as you said your family made the decision to pull the plug on your brother her family wants to take care of her so what's wrong with that?
Michael has moved on with his life and has done so for the past 11 yrs so why dont he let this family take care of their daughter and sister as they have done for the past 15 yrs. I dont think of her as being humilated because of her photos on TV and no it doesnt look like their going to be able to save her life and all that shows me is America has come down to killing whom ever as long as the spouse can stand up in court and be our living will whether it be true or false and the courts will air on side of death. So sad.And if she was dead 15 yrs ago we wouldnt be here having this discussion today all of her organs work all on there on so no she isnt dead.
But don't you see? That is the great thing, we're not watching her starve to death...in fact they haven't shown us any video of what she looks like now, and they can't either. A lot of good will come from her death and this situation. Our rights will remain in tact because of what Michael is doing.

janelle
03-29-2005, 06:11 AM
Jesus said "We are not of this World". Yet you are willing to make Terri a part of it???

She is until she draws her last breath. If you want to go on what Jesus is saying here than we should all stop eating and die. That is not what He is saying and I hope you really don't believe it is.

Why do you want Terri dead so badly? :confused:

YNKYH8R
03-29-2005, 06:13 AM
And no she is not dead her heart still beats lungs,kidneys are all still functioning without any help so no she is not dead!
heve you ever heard "I think therefore I am?" Well, she doesn't think there fore she's not. ;)

YNKYH8R
03-29-2005, 06:14 AM
Why do you want Terri dead so badly? :confused:
We don't want her to die 'so badly' we just want this to end.

kidzpca
03-29-2005, 08:51 AM
Why do you want Terri dead so badly? :confused:

I DON'T WANT HER DIE SO BADLY!

Has anyone ever thought of what suffering she has experienced over the past 15 years? She has the right to DIE.

I honestly think that most people in this world would not want to "live" like Terri has for the last 15 years. I sure wouldn't. And would never ever have my chronically ill daughter kept in this condition with no hope of any recovery for 15 years!

This is why everyone should have a Living Will.

Perhaps the autopsy that is planned after her death will answer the extent of her brain damage, body damage etc...

sccountrygrl
03-29-2005, 10:55 AM
Actually I'm not thinking with my heart and feelings I'm thinking with my mind and everything I've ever been taught or learned tells me this isnt right to let someone starve to death on the WORD of a husband that not only waited 7 years to disclose her wishes but has another wife according to the law in FL.
Nothing was put in writing its only hear say.That to me isnt enough evidence to put someone to death.And by alot of the theories I have read we should take all feeding tubes out of the severely mentally challenged because if there brain doesnt funtion then there not with us.

janelle
03-29-2005, 12:57 PM
Handicap people the world over find all of this frightening and disgusting. They could be next. People in carehomes would die if no one would help them eat. They can't get food for themselves and if not helped would certainly die. Mentally handicapped people would die if not helped. And for the statement I think therefore I am is a slam to people who have trouble thinking.

Jesus taught us differfently. We need to see Him in everyone we meet then we would treat them with respect and not judge them to be less than human. We will be judged by God someday on how we treated the less fortunate among us.

schsa
03-29-2005, 01:14 PM
It's not right to starve someone. It also isn't right to keep a body alive just because you can. I am not talking about Mentally Challenged. I am talking about brain dead. Where there is no real comprehension. Where the person is dead and we are keeping the body alive because we can. That to me is disgusting.

janelle
03-29-2005, 01:41 PM
She is only hooked up to a feeding tube not a resperator. I can see where a person who is all wires and tubes to machines is not living but her heart beats and her body functions are working on there own.

Christopher Reeves had more help staying alive than she does. He was hooked up to more than she is.

freebielover
03-29-2005, 01:49 PM
But Christopher Reeves could talk, convey thoughts, ideas, something that Terri is incapable of doing. I must say that everyone has an opinion, but this is probably the most mature debate I've ever seen on these boards.

belcherpi
03-29-2005, 02:40 PM
The thing I don't understand and maybe someone else could explain it to me, if she didn't want to live hooked up to tubes then why did he have the feeding tube inserted in the first place? This may have been posted somewhere before and I may have missed it because I'm finding it hard to keep up with all the news on this heartbreaking case.

Jolie Rouge
03-29-2005, 03:06 PM
The thing I don't understand and maybe someone else could explain it to me, if she didn't want to live hooked up to tubes then why did he have the feeding tube inserted in the first place? This may have been posted somewhere before and I may have missed it because I'm finding it hard to keep up with all the news on this heartbreaking case.


That is just ONE of the many questions ... why did it take him several years before he "remembered" Terri's wishes -- after meeting his new woman and having a child with her ?? ( Maybe those sleepless nights walking the baby ? ) He has done quite a few things that just don't square with the "loving husband" image he tried to portray ... he had two seperate long term affairs with nurses at the Nursing Home where Terri was .... Didn't it feel creepy - visisting your girlfriend and wife at the same time ? He sought the removal of Terri's feeding tube w/o notifying any family, announced the engagement to his fiance' as soon as the court gave approval ... but failed to notify her parents for several months.

YankeeMary
03-29-2005, 05:46 PM
She is until she draws her last breath. If you want to go on what Jesus is saying here than we should all stop eating and die. That is not what He is saying and I hope you really don't believe it is.

Why do you want Terri dead so badly? :confused:
You are kidding right? To start with we don't need this to turn into a religious battle, you are Catholic, I am not. I do NOT agree with the Catholic ways as you don't believe in my ways. See thats the difference between the way you understand your Bible and I understand mine. I do not think for one minute that Jesus would want this for Terri, thats why he rescued her soul 15-16 years ago. Society as a whole is making Terri part of this world which My Bible (My Jesus) clearly states not to do.

As far as wanting her dead so badly...PLEASE! On the other hand why do you want her alive so bad? Are you willing to take care of her? Are you willing to pay for her? Are you willing to answer to the Lord one day that you are the reason her shell is laying in the bed not knowing anything? Are you willing to go against her wishes?

YankeeMary
03-29-2005, 05:53 PM
That is just ONE of the many questions ... why did it take him several years before he "remembered" Terri's wishes -- after meeting his new woman and having a child with her ?? ( Maybe those sleepless nights walking the baby ? ) He has done quite a few things that just don't square with the "loving husband" image he tried to portray ... he had two seperate long term affairs with nurses at the Nursing Home where Terri was .... Didn't it feel creepy - visisting your girlfriend and wife at the same time ? He sought the removal of Terri's feeding tube w/o notifying any family, announced the engagement to his fiance' as soon as the court gave approval ... but failed to notify her parents for several months.
One of the articles you just posted Jolie said that the judge asked Micheal what Terri would have wanted, not what HE wanted.

YankeeMary
03-29-2005, 05:57 PM
She is only hooked up to a feeding tube not a resperator. I can see where a person who is all wires and tubes to machines is not living but her heart beats and her body functions are working on there own.

Christopher Reeves had more help staying alive than she does. He was hooked up to more than she is.
There is a HUGE difference between crippled/paralysised (SP) and brain damage. One is damage to the spinal cord (Reeve's case) the other is damage to the brain (Terri's case). With a spinal cord injury you can think. With a brain injury (to the extent of Terri's) you can't think!

janelle
03-29-2005, 10:48 PM
So we starve all Alzeheimers patients cause they can't think?

jedmatters
03-30-2005, 12:02 AM
So we starve all Alzeheimers patients cause they can't think?

She does not have Alzeheimers. That is like comparing apples and cats.
This is about a PVS patient and what SHE wanted.

YankeeMary
03-30-2005, 04:05 AM
So we starve all Alzeheimers patients cause they can't think?
I could be wrong, since I do not know much about alzeheimers, but alzeheimers patients CAN THINK, they just can't remember. Its not fair to compare alzeheimers patients to someone in the same condition as Terri IMO. Again, its 2 completely different situations.

sccountrygrl
03-30-2005, 05:40 AM
Actually its not much different than alzheimers stage 3 here are the symtoms and at this stage they usually insert a feeding tube.

In the last stage of Alzheimer’s disease, damage to the brain’s nerve cells is widespread. At this point, full-time care is typically required. For friends, family, and caregivers, this can be the most difficult stage, since all sense of self seems to vanish. People with severe Alzheimer’s disease may be bedridden for long periods of time, and they often die from other illnesses, such as pneumonia. Signs of severe Alzheimer’s disease may include:3
Complete loss of language and memory
Weight loss
Seizures, skin infections, and difficulty swallowing
Making noises, muttering
Increased sleeping
Lack of bladder and bowel control
Loss of physical coordination



And another thing you all keep saying this is what "SHE WANTED"the only one saying she wanted this was her deceptive husband and to me his word dont mean crap to me "He promised her he would love honor in SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH til death do them part to and you see after 4 years of sickness he gave up on that he's a real stand up and honorable guy huh

lassss
03-30-2005, 05:41 AM
you are comparing apples to oranges here.... you cannot compare Terri with people who suffer from Alzheimers or a parapalegic....These people can still think and feel and want. In Terri's case, there is no brain activity, none, no thought process, no thoughts, no feelings, no hunger or thirst or pain of any kind.

Alzheimer patients still feel pain and hunger and thirst, they just do not remember certain things. And with a parapalegic, they might be able to move their arms and legs but they still get hungry and thirsty and think.

It's like trying to turn on the computer when the power is out....nothing

janelle
03-30-2005, 06:43 AM
That is impossible to say, even the doctors disagree.

excuseme
03-30-2005, 10:45 AM
The same people that want her to remain on the feeding tube in hopes of a cure are against finding the cure. It makes no sense. Only stem cells could help her.

YankeeMary
03-30-2005, 10:59 AM
The same people that want her to remain on the feeding tube in hopes of a cure are against finding the cure. It makes no sense. Only stem cells could help her.
In total agreement!!!

adorkablex
03-30-2005, 11:40 AM
And another thing you all keep saying this is what "SHE WANTED"the only one saying she wanted this was her deceptive husband and to me his word dont mean crap to me "He promised her he would love honor in SICKNESS AND IN HEALTH til death do them part to and you see after 4 years of sickness he gave up on that he's a real stand up and honorable guy huh


Yes but everyone keeps forgetting that their wishes in this matter just don't matter. What we think doesn't mean jack crap in the court systems.
Just curious but how long does the last phase of Alzheimer's last. Does it last 15 years?

sccountrygrl
03-30-2005, 12:08 PM
"Just curious but how long does the last phase of Alzheimer's last. Does it last 15 years?"


yes they possibly could because they dont dye of alzheimers they usually die of an infection of some sort.

Jolie Rouge
03-30-2005, 01:46 PM
you are comparing apples to oranges here.... you cannot compare Terri with people who suffer from Alzheimers or a parapalegic....These people can still think and feel and want. In Terri's case, there is no brain activity, none, no thought process, no thoughts, no feelings, no hunger or thirst or pain of any kind.


There is no proof of this - only Doctors' opinions and they vary depending whom who ask .... the only question is Can Terri communicate ?? Again - it depends on who is asked ... M. and his payroll or doctors and lawyers say NO; Terri's parents, brothers and sisters, their lawyers, their doctors, former nurses say YES.

I took care of my grandmother who had Alzheimers, for eight years she did not recognise her surroundings, her family, sometimes herself .... she died of pnemonia after a nurse's aide neglected her.

texasgander
03-31-2005, 07:33 AM
Stem cells could NOT regrow the part of her brain that has "liquified"....how many of you would want to "live" the way she has? Sorry.....that's NOT living....that is NO quality of life......I'm sorry she ended up the way she did, and I'm sorry she died....but NO WAY would I care to live the rest of my life like that......I already told my parents and my hubby do NOT ever let me end up like that......I told my Mom I hoped she loved me enough to NOT want me to live like that!

YNKYH8R
06-30-2005, 10:12 AM
LOL! Well I guess this thread is moot now huh?

kidzpca
06-30-2005, 03:10 PM
LOL! Well I guess this thread is moot now huh?


yep. You took the words out of my mouth. hmmmmmmmmm? :eek:

heartlvrs
06-30-2005, 03:45 PM
LOL! Well I guess this thread is moot now huh?

How cold and cruel! But truthfully NOT really moot...imagine how many others will die because of our "justice" systems and people are no longer worth to be saved....:(

janelle
07-13-2005, 08:23 AM
I agree with heartlvrs, now some are laughing at that poor woman's death. LOL she is dead so it doesn't matter anymore. How sick. It matters to her parents and always will. :mad: :(

Also adult stem cells are proving more useful than embryo cells and no one is against using adult stem cells. Geesh.