this is why we must..........

[heartlvrs]

:mad: have this war!! We have got to stop these terrorists!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Bush is right...we cannot stop!!!



http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040902/capt.mosb22809021725.russia_school_seizure_mosb228 .jpg

[schsa]

Excuse me but what is going on in Russia is something that has nothing to do with international terrorism. This is pure revenge of Chechen women against the Russians who have killed their husbands and sons. This is not an international terrorist groups that is highly organized and well funded. What these women are doing is martyring themselves in order to get revenge.

I am sorry but this has nothing to do with terrorists at all. The types of things these women are doing is not on the same scale. This is no different than someone going into the local McDonalds and gunning people down. This is exactly what this is. I do not equate this in any way with terrorism.

Sorry, but this is a group of very mislead women who are grieving and have found a way to strike back at the people who killed their families.

[JKATHERINE]

Excuse me but what is going on in Russia is something that has nothing to do with international terrorism. This is pure revenge of Chechen women against the Russians who have killed their husbands and sons. This is not an international terrorist groups that is highly organized and well funded. What these women are doing is martyring themselves in order to get revenge.

I am sorry but this has nothing to do with terrorists at all. The types of things these women are doing is not on the same scale. This is no different than someone going into the local McDonalds and gunning people down. This is exactly what this is. I do not equate this in any way with terrorism.

Sorry, but this is a group of very mislead women who are grieving and have found a way to strike back at the people who killed their families.

Thank you, Schsa, well-said. ITA.

[LuvBigRip]

Excuse me but what is going on in Russia is something that has nothing to do with international terrorism. This is pure revenge of Chechen women against the Russians who have killed their husbands and sons. This is not an international terrorist groups that is highly organized and well funded. What these women are doing is martyring themselves in order to get revenge.

I am sorry but this has nothing to do with terrorists at all. The types of things these women are doing is not on the same scale. This is no different than someone going into the local McDonalds and gunning people down. This is exactly what this is. I do not equate this in any way with terrorism.

Sorry, but this is a group of very mislead women who are grieving and have found a way to strike back at the people who killed their families.

Scores killed in school siege
Twenty hostage-takers reported killed
Friday, September 3, 2004 Posted: 3:12 PM EDT (1912 GMT)

BESLAN, Russia (CNN

Hundreds of people held hostage at a school in southern Russia fled to safety Friday, but scores are reported dead as pitched battles continue between troops and hostage-takers.

Reports said the hostages may have numbered as many as 1,200 and that 70 percent of them were children.

It was not clear whether several children and others, who were being held by a remnant of the hostage-taker hours after the school was stormed, were still in captivity.

Valery Andreyev, head of the local branch of the FSB intelligence service, said 20 hostage-takers had been killed, 10 of them from Arab countries, after Russian troops stormed the school earlier Friday. (Map of school)

Until now, the rebels have been regarded as residents of the restive republic of Chechnya or other Caucasus areas.

Many fatalities have been reported. Around 100 people have been seen dead in the school gym by journalists.

There also was a report that 23 bodies, including 17 children, were outside a hospital morgue and 10 more bodies were inside. One news report said the death toll could exceed 150.

Near the scene, news footage showed dead bodies of children on stretchers.

One woman leaned down to a young boy, hugging and caressing the youth, who shared a stretcher with another body. Other women stood shocked, holding their hands to their mouths and weeping.

Andreyev said 400 people had been freed in the storming operation, with many of them wounded. Earlier, scores of survivors ran from the school and people were being carried on stretchers to ambulances.

Special forces were mopping up pockets of rebel resistance at the school, clearing the burned-out building of wounded hostages and hunting down the hostage-takers who fled after special forces stormed the site.

Russian forces say they are in control of the school building, but the gunfire continued into the late afternoon and there were reports of militants firing from another structure in the school compound.

Hostage-takers have grenade launchers, small arms and have been sniping, and troops and the abductors have been fighting pitched battles.

The hostage incident began two days ago when an armed gang of Chechen rebels took hundreds of children, parents and teachers hostage on the first day of school in Beslan, located in North Ossetia, near Chechnya, where rebels have been fighting Russia and demanding independence for that small republic.

The storming was not planned, Russia said.

A local official from Russia's FSB intelligence service told Russian media the troops had been ready for a long siege.

However, the forces stormed the building around midday after Russian officials, under a cease-fire agreement with militants, tried to collect bodies lying outside the building.

There was an explosion, hostages fled, and hostage-takers opened fire on the children and rescue workers. One of the workers was killed and another was wounded.

Russian troops then opened fire at the rebels, and the battle began.

Several hours later the scene remained in chaos, with pockets of resistance remaining and machine-gun fire heard on the scene and troops going room-by-room as the wounded were being taken out of the building.

It is thought that the people in the gym might have died when explosives triggered the collapse of the roof and a fire.

Russian forces blasted holes in a building of the school to create exit points. A Russian soldier was hit by a bullet, and a news cameraman was hit.

The explosions heard at the scene could have resulted from mines and booby-traps planted near the school by militants, one report said.

Interfax quoted a Defense official as saying that "the terrorists planted a lot of mines and booby-traps filled with metal bolts in the gym" where hostages were held.

Officials said the hostage-takers had been holding more than 350 children, parents and teachers. Relatives said the number was much higher -- about 1,000.

Children who survived said they were denied food and water and had to take off their clothes because of heat. Some boys said that because they lacked liquids, they had to drink their own urine.

The standoff followed a bloody week in Russia, in which a female suicide bomber Tuesday killed nine people outside a Moscow subway station and two airliners were downed by two suspected Chechen female suicide bombers on August 24, killing all 89 people aboard the planes.

Russian officials have said the new wave of attacks is an attempt at revenge for last weekend's elections in Chechnya in which a Kremlin-backed candidate won the presidency.

These were NOT rebels, but once again Arab terrorists. Animals who have no belief in ANY sanctity of life. Animals who use women and children as shields because they hold no worth in women and believe that children are acceptable forms of cover. Animals that will not be stopped by a more "sensitive" war. Animals who cannot be reasoned with. Animals that would allow women, infants and children to go days without food or water. Animals that must be stopped. Animals that feel no empathy. You cannot reason with people like this.

[JKATHERINE]

Regardless, just like Iraq, it's not our business or our problem so we should just leave it alone. Hopefully Dumbo Dubya doesn't get any foul ideas...

[rlynn411]

:eek: ..... another thread I must run out of! Again, everyone on their best behavior!

[BigLyd1]

:eek: ..... another thread I must run out of! Again, everyone on their best behavior!

<running behind rlynn411 again>

[JKATHERINE]

My sentiments EXACTLY!

I might say the same about people who keep bashing BUSH for having the backbone to do something, (JMO) and with that, I'm backing out.

IMO it's not about backbone, it's about minding our own business and taking care of our OWN.

[Surfergal]

will someone please gve me the facts that link the war in Iraq to terrorism?? Those are two separate things.

[LuvBigRip]

I am always amazed at the attitude that we should leave others be, yet should to cow-tow to the United Nations with all of their ineffciency and unscrupulous dealings, not to mention their resentful attitude towards the USA. Those who yearn for a global peace, yet do not want to wage global war to eradicate the scourge of terror in order to earn that peace. Those who carry signs proclaiming One World, One People, yet refuse to acknowledge that there are people who hate, for the sake of hate and kill to advance a cause that would set back civilization generations. Those that would happily donate money to save a starving child in a refuge camp, yet not spend one cent in order to fight the genocide that placed them in that camp.

Russia was no help to the United States when we requested Her to be, in fact Her government and people left us hanging out to dry, yet, should Russia request the assistance of the United States to help in their war against this same terror we are now fighting, should we be the friend to Russia that we expected from them, or that was shown to us. Remember when answering, One World, One People. Terror is terror is terror. We fight it here, or there. But fight it we must.

[sahmsfreeb]

:eek: ..... another thread I must run out of! Again, everyone on their best behavior!
im with you....maybe everyone is on atkins and having headaches?

[iluvmybaby]

I think we should stop sticking our noses in other peoples bussiness and keep our $$$ for the USA. There are people like me with no health insurance, older people that pay out of pocket for medicines when you only get a SS check, homeless, starving...you get the point. I want my tax dollars to go to HERE, I am tired of us spreading our good will to everyone but our own. VOTE keep money and jobs in the USA, no exceptions

[justme23]

IMO it's not about backbone, it's about minding our own business and taking care of our OWN.

You also believe no aid for children should go out of our country, right?

I'm sorry, but the above mentality is why I was beat for 15 years, because everyone minded their own business... RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. Ppl need to learn to NOT mind their own business when it involves children in ANY way. If more ppl stood up and said something there would be a lot less violence because the abusers (of all kinds) would already know what would happen and they would stay away from it... but because ppl mind their own business they get away w/ it every day... RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD!!!

[Freebeemom]

Nations look to the usa for guidance. The Russians were to quick to jump to Democracy...this whole "instant gratification" bug that is eating people needs to be destroyed. Things take time. As I agree that we need to take care of our own, our foreign policy has been neglected for too long.

The solution to "Taking care of our own" is NOT to carry the week...but to teach them to survive on their own. MONEY is not the answer....JOBS are....EDUCATION......and sadly, due to outsourcing, we are forced to make way for democracy throughout the world.

I don't have the answer to this, but I can tell you this much....the world is a very evil evil place....

[sahmsfreeb]

ya know i thought we did take care of our own in this country... my taxes are pretty darn high. money is taken out for SS. how much of my or dh's check is not for our family but for others? i dont complain about any of that... but to make sure that every single soul in the us is covered would make us a communist nation. perhaps it is time to give to another nation. at least someone would be greatful.

im sorry but ill stop to help any kid anywhere in the world! and ill support any administration that will do that. time to be the big kids on the block for a change and help others.... not just oursleves...

[Freebeemom]

Lol...ITA!! Well said!

[thedragonlady]

You also believe no aid for children should go out of our country, right?

I'm sorry, but the above mentality is why I was beat for 15 years, because everyone minded their own business... RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. Ppl need to learn to NOT mind their own business when it involves children in ANY way. If more ppl stood up and said something there would be a lot less violence because the abusers (of all kinds) would already know what would happen and they would stay away from it... but because ppl mind their own business they get away w/ it every day... RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD!!!



I'm one of the one's who feel that no aid for children should go out of our country BUT I have to add...until all of the hungry kids we have here are taken care of!

I have never been able to understand why and how we have so much money to send to other countries and to spend on wars when we have our own who go hungry and we have this huge debt that causes programs for kids, the poor, and the elderly to be cut. If we have to cut programs because of this debt, why do they always manage to come up with billions for wars in countries that we were not invited to take part in?

So many are saying that they believe in the war on terrorism. How? Our president started with one, then switched to another, then switched to a third so he could finish daddy's war so daddy would be proud of him.
justme23 said " RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD ". The problem is....the things here in our back yard are not being taken care of because they are too busy giving away our money to, and taking care of, other countries back yards.

[justme23]

I'm one of the one's who feel that no aid for children should go out of our country BUT I have to add...until all of the hungry kids we have here are taken care of!

justme23 said " RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD ". The problem is....the things here in our back yard are not being taken care of because they are too busy giving away our money to, and taking care of, other countries back yards.

There are programs in this country that help kids and their families. There is welfare and Wic, there are homeless shelters and food banks and churches and all kinds of programs... yes, I am well aware of the fact that kids in this country that still go hungry and still need help... I *was* one of those kids, but the mind your own business attitude is WHY I needed help, NOT because there was no help out there!

I happen to agree w/ this war... I don't think it has a thing to do w/ finishing daddies dirty work... but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The mind your own business mentality is a very HUGE reason for a lot of kids being abused and doing w/out in this country... because INSTEAD of calling authorities when ppl see kids going abused or doing w/out... instead of going to the food bank when your neighbor keeps knocking on your door to ask for sugar or flour... ppl mind their own business and come HERE to complain cause they 'don't go shopping enough'... MAYBE THEY CAN'T... so go to the food bank FOR them!

If ppl stopped minding their own business the kids in this country would be a lot better off... it isn't just about the govt helping other ppl, it's about YOU (you and I) helping other ppl!

[girlwithsoul]

You also believe no aid for children should go out of our country, right?

I'm sorry, but the above mentality is why I was beat for 15 years, because everyone minded their own business... RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. Ppl need to learn to NOT mind their own business when it involves children in ANY way. If more ppl stood up and said something there would be a lot less violence because the abusers (of all kinds) would already know what would happen and they would stay away from it... but because ppl mind their own business they get away w/ it every day... RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD!!!

I'm sorry but you cannot blame your abusive situation on your fellow Americans. Seriously. I don't know what happened to you and I'm sad that you've had a hard life but it's not everyone's job to butt in....and if they did it's a Catch 22 because they'll either be hated for butting in and causing chaos for some or be hated for doing nothing.

This war was not right....still isn't. BUT....we're there....you break it, you buy it as it were.

My fear is that Bush will get re-elected and the occupation of Iraq will never end AND we'll end up going to war in places like Russia or Korea.....again, for nothing.

Sad. Go Kerry!

[JKATHERINE]

I think we should stop sticking our noses in other peoples bussiness and keep our $$$ for the USA. There are people like me with no health insurance, older people that pay out of pocket for medicines when you only get a SS check, homeless, starving...you get the point. I want my tax dollars to go to HERE, I am tired of us spreading our good will to everyone but our own. VOTE keep money and jobs in the USA, no exceptions

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!

[JKATHERINE]

You also believe no aid for children should go out of our country, right?

I'm sorry, but the above mentality is why I was beat for 15 years, because everyone minded their own business... RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA. Ppl need to learn to NOT mind their own business when it involves children in ANY way. If more ppl stood up and said something there would be a lot less violence because the abusers (of all kinds) would already know what would happen and they would stay away from it... but because ppl mind their own business they get away w/ it every day... RIGHT HERE IN YOUR BACK YARD!!!

You're right. Maybe if we spent more time STICKING OUR NOSES in the business of CHILD ABUSERS here in AMERICA, less of it would happen. But NO, we spend all of our money fighting someone else's crimes and helping some other country's children...

[JKATHERINE]

There are programs in this country that help kids and their families. There is welfare and Wic, there are homeless shelters and food banks and churches and all kinds of programs... yes, I am well aware of the fact that kids in this country that still go hungry and still need help... I *was* one of those kids, but the mind your own business attitude is WHY I needed help, NOT because there was no help out there!

I happen to agree w/ this war... I don't think it has a thing to do w/ finishing daddies dirty work... but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. The mind your own business mentality is a very HUGE reason for a lot of kids being abused and doing w/out in this country... because INSTEAD of calling authorities when ppl see kids going abused or doing w/out... instead of going to the food bank when your neighbor keeps knocking on your door to ask for sugar or flour... ppl mind their own business and come HERE to complain cause they 'don't go shopping enough'... MAYBE THEY CAN'T... so go to the food bank FOR them!

If ppl stopped minding their own business the kids in this country would be a lot better off... it isn't just about the govt helping other ppl, it's about YOU (you and I) helping other ppl!

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a bit misguided. I do not believe in the "mind your own business' motto when it comes to children or anyone here in our own country. I dont' believe we do enough to help our own and people need to stick their noses in other people's business here in the US to prevent from happening what happened to you. HOWEVER, when we stick our noses in other countries' business, we end up spending billions of OUR HARD EARNED dollars on some other country's people.

I pay SS and taxes just like most of the other Americans here in the US. I think they're ridiculously high, but I don't have a problem with them going to help people in need. I am thankful that we have programs like Welfare and WIC to help those in need, but the whole 'aid' system MUST be retooled. It's a sad fact, but many, many of the people who use these services DO NOT need it and repeatedly TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. Wanna see real life examples? Go visit my mom in her neighborhood where the housing district bought most of the houses, fixed them up real nice and practically gave them away to the 'needy.' These 'needy' families have two nice vehicles per family, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and other 'toys'--things my mother could never afford. Does my mom qualify for help? NO. I'm sick of seeing this crap here in the US. I'm sick of the fact that my husband and I work our tails off trying to give ourselves, our child and future children a decent life and we can't even afford groceries more than once a month due to high payments and low pay(no, we don't qualify for any assistance)--when I see women all the time who find ways to skirt around the rules. I can't tell you how many women I've seen go into the local WIC office driving high-priced SUV's and wearing designer shoes. I can't tell you how many couples do not get married on purpose so that when the gal gets knocked up, they can collect my money from the state while they sit home on their butts unemployed.

So, don't tell me we need to be minding other people's business. We need to mind our own and we need to get our economy back into shape and our people on the straight and narrow.

....Stepping off the soapbox...

[YankeeMary]

I understand what you're saying, but I think it's a bit misguided. I do not believe in the "mind your own business' motto when it comes to children or anyone here in our own country. I dont' believe we do enough to help our own and people need to stick their noses in other people's business here in the US to prevent from happening what happened to you. HOWEVER, when we stick our noses in other countries' business, we end up spending billions of OUR HARD EARNED dollars on some other country's people.

I pay SS and taxes just like most of the other Americans here in the US. I think they're ridiculously high, but I don't have a problem with them going to help people in need. I am thankful that we have programs like Welfare and WIC to help those in need, but the whole 'aid' system MUST be retooled. It's a sad fact, but many, many of the people who use these services DO NOT need it and repeatedly TAKE ADVANTAGE of it. Wanna see real life examples? Go visit my mom in her neighborhood where the housing district bought most of the houses, fixed them up real nice and practically gave them away to the 'needy.' These 'needy' families have two nice vehicles per family, snowmobiles, 4 wheelers and other 'toys'--things my mother could never afford. Does my mom qualify for help? NO. I'm sick of seeing this crap here in the US. I'm sick of the fact that my husband and I work our tails off trying to give ourselves, our child and future children a decent life and we can't even afford groceries more than once a month due to high payments and low pay(no, we don't qualify for any assistance)--when I see women all the time who find ways to skirt around the rules. I can't tell you how many women I've seen go into the local WIC office driving high-priced SUV's and wearing designer shoes. I can't tell you how many couples do not get married on purpose so that when the gal gets knocked up, they can collect my money from the state while they sit home on their butts unemployed.

So, don't tell me we need to be minding other people's business. We need to mind our own and we need to get our economy back into shape and our people on the straight and narrow.

....Stepping off the soapbox...


AMEN...ITA...

[justme23]

I'm sorry but you cannot blame your abusive situation on your fellow Americans. Seriously. I don't know what happened to you and I'm sad that you've had a hard life but it's not everyone's job to butt in....and if they did it's a Catch 22 because they'll either be hated for butting in and causing chaos for some or be hated for doing nothing.

This war was not right....still isn't. BUT....we're there....you break it, you buy it as it were.

My fear is that Bush will get re-elected and the occupation of Iraq will never end AND we'll end up going to war in places like Russia or Korea.....again, for nothing.

Sad. Go Kerry!

I'm not blaming fellow americans for my situation... I'm blaming the ppl AROUND me when I was a child that SAW what was going on and didn't report it. You're seriously gonna sit there and tell me you would give a rats behind if someone hated you if you turned them in for beating a CHILD? You see nothing wrong w/ a child getting beat as long as you aren't hated? That totally blows me away! I couldn't care less if someone hated me for turning them in ... LET THEM HATE ME ATLEAST THAT CHILD ISN'T BEING HURT ANYMORE... I can defend myself ... a child can not!

And yes, none of that has anything to do w/ this war... but neither does Russia... I was talking about the mind your own mentality, not the war.

[girlwithsoul]

Hon....I wasn't saying ME....I was saying people. I couldn't care less what people think about me and you have no idea how many times I HAVE stepped in to help neighbors, friends and family out of HORRENDOUS situations.....things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I'm just saying that THAT is why people don't step in....not that it's ok.

But as has been said...the biggest problem our country has is that we'd rather be the world's police than our own savior.

[schsa]

I think that this got totally off track. Ten people from Arab countries does not mean that they are not part of the Chechen rebel group. They are reporting 20 rebels, not terrorist. They are reporting people with bombs around their bodies. These are not terrorists. These are martyrs. These people had no intention of living through what they were doing.

The point of terrorism is to disrupt government, economics, and to bring down as much of the government as possible. The Twin Towers were chosen because there were many financial companies who ran their businesses from there. And they were an easy target. The other targets were the White House and the Pentagon. Had the terrorists been successful they would have done just that. Our government would have been disrupted and it would have shown us that we were completely vulnerable to anything. However our people showed that they were willing to fight for their lives and their country. People died but those people brought down a plane that was going for the White House. I have to thank those who lost their lives for their bravery and heroism. Without that spirit we would have lost so much more on 9/11.

The Chechens want revenge. Pure and simple. They are taking lives, as many as they can. They are not targeting governement or economic institutions. They are taking the lives of children. Which in my mind is as low as you can go. Children cannot defend themselves against adults. They are told to follow instructions and that adults are there to help them not destroy them. Those rebels who went into that school took the innocent and they were simply cruel in their distruction.

[justme23]

I think that this got totally off track. Ten people from Arab countries does not mean that they are not part of the Chechen rebel group. They are reporting 20 rebels, not terrorist. They are reporting people with bombs around their bodies. These are not terrorists. These are martyrs. These people had no intention of living through what they were doing.

The point of terrorism is to disrupt government, economics, and to bring down as much of the government as possible. The Twin Towers were chosen because there were many financial companies who ran their businesses from there. And they were an easy target. The other targets were the White House and the Pentagon. Had the terrorists been successful they would have done just that. Our government would have been disrupted and it would have shown us that we were completely vulnerable to anything. However our people showed that they were willing to fight for their lives and their country. People died but those people brought down a plane that was going for the White House. I have to thank those who lost their lives for their bravery and heroism. Without that spirit we would have lost so much more on 9/11.

The Chechens want revenge. Pure and simple. They are taking lives, as many as they can. They are not targeting governement or economic institutions. They are taking the lives of children. Which in my mind is as low as you can go. Children cannot defend themselves against adults. They are told to follow instructions and that adults are there to help them not destroy them. Those rebels who went into that school took the innocent and they were simply cruel in their distruction.

Girl, I misunderstood what you meant, I apologize.

And schsa, on CNN this morning they were saying that the terrorists/rebels were connected to Al Qaeda... so if nothing else, it appears to be funded by the same ppl who funded 9/11.

[kvmj]

Several hijackers were recruited by Al Qaeda while on their way to fight in Chenya. They may or may not have had a hand in this.

[Azriel_LittleHawk]

WOW! animals? great. so ...they think we are infidels, and we think they are animals..hmm..makes it easy to kill each other that way. *ROLLSEYES* Goddess help us ALL!
later!
Az

[Azriel_LittleHawk]

poor lil kids...thats the part that breaks my heart. war sucks..terrorism sucks.. :(