Appeals court: Terri Schiavo parents cannot intervene [Archive] - Page 2 - Big Big Forums

nightrider127

03-23-2005, 04:19 AM

ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A three-judge panel of the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals early Wednesday declined to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

The vote was 2 to 1.

The brain-damaged woman's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, had filed with the appeals court Tuesday, after U.S. District Court Judge James Whittemore in Tampa, Florida, decided not to grant a temporary restraining order that would allow reinstatement of the tube.

The tube has provided the 41-year-old woman with water and nutrients since 1990. She is being cared for at a Florida hospice.

After the appeals court ruling, a lawyer for the Schindlers said they would continue their fight, The Associated Press reported.

"The Schindlers will be filing an appropriate appeal to save their daughter's life," Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, told the AP.

In issuing their majority opinion, 11th Circuit Judges Ed Carnes and Frank Hull said:

"We agree that the plaintiffs have failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims. We also conclude that the district court's carefully thought out decision to deny temporary relief in these circumstances is not an abuse of discretion."

Judge Charles Wilson, who said he "strongly dissented" from the majority opinion, said refusing the parents' appeal "frustrates Congress' intent, which is to maintain the status quo by keeping Theresa Schiavo alive until the federal courts have a new and adequate opportunity to consider the constitutional issues raised by plaintiffs."

Continuing, Wilson said, the whole point of a law passed early Monday by Congress was to "give the federal courts an opportunity to consider the merits of plaintiffs' constitutional claims with a fresh set of eyes."

Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday on the order of Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer, a Florida judge who ruled that he had no jurisdiction in the case. He said judicial doctrine bars losing parties from using federal courts to appeal state court decisions.

Both sides in the case -- the Schindlers, and Schiavo's husband, Michael -- filed documents Tuesday with the appellate court in Atlanta.

"While time is of the essence here, there remains adequate time for this court to conduct an expedited and deliberate review," Michael Schiavo's filing said.

His lawyers also asked that if the appeals court ordered reinsertion, it also grant an automatic stay of eight hours so that Michael Schiavo could seek a review with the U.S. Supreme Court.

Attorney George Felos, representing the husband, told reporters that his client is by his wife's side, saying, "That's where he'll remain until she dies." He said Michael Schiavo also has given the Schindlers the right to visit the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.

President Bush has expressed support for the Schindlers' fight, signing legislation allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts. (Full story)

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the Bush administration would have preferred a "different ruling" than Whittemore's decision.

McClellan said the administration hoped the Schindlers find relief in the appeals process. (Full story)

The Justice Department late Tuesday filed documents in the appeals court supporting the Schindlers' effort to have the feeding tube reinserted while the legal battle plays out.

"Unless preliminary relief is immediately issued, there will be significant and irreversible injury: Theresa Schiavo will die," the document declared.

The 10-page "statement of interest" that was filed with the appeals court was nearly identical to one rejected by Whittemore.

In the new filing, now rejected by the appeals court panel, the government offered to submit a separate legal brief addressing the constitutionality of the law passed by Congress.

Reached in Tallahassee, Florida, Randall Terry -- an anti-abortion activist and spokesman for the Schindlers -- said the parents were "devastated" by the appeals panel's ruling.

"We're simply hoping the Tallahassee legislature will intervene to save Terri's life," he said. "At this point, it appears that all roads to saving Terri goes through Tallahassee."

Terry said he's in Tallahassee trying to convince state senators to vote for a bill that would reinsert Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

"We've only got maybe two senators to convert, so I'm hoping the Tallahassee government gets its act together."

Schindlers 'shocked'
In denying the request for a temporary restraining order to restore the tube, Whittemore on Tuesday wrote that Schiavo's parents didn't have a "substantial likelihood of success" on the merits of their arguments.

"This court concludes that Theresa Schiavo's life and liberty interests were adequately protected by the extensive process provided in the state courts," the judge wrote.

Whittemore acknowledged the "gravity of the consequences of denying injunctive relief."

"Even under these difficult and time strained circumstances, however, and not withstanding Congress' expressed interest in the welfare of Theresa Schiavo, this court is constrained to apply the law to the issues before it," Whittemore's ruling said.

Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother, told CNN in a phone interview from Washington, D.C., that his family was "just shocked" at the decision.

"I don't understand how the judge can predetermine our success," he said, adding that his family remained hopeful.

Schindler spokesman Gary McCullough called the decision "extremely cruel."

"Here's a woman whose life is hanging. She's being slowly starved," he said.

But Howard Simon, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, defended the decision.

"What Judge Whittemore did in his decision was to defend the 'culture of freedom' that each of us has to exercise control over our lives, and the circumstances of our own death," he said in a written statement.

"There is a lesson for all of us in the tragic Schiavo case," he said. "Express your end-of-life views to your family and loved ones and, better, put it in writing."

Could federal courts spur new law?
If the federal courts decline to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case, Congress and Bush could pass and sign another law to try to keep the brain-damaged woman alive, said CNN legal analyst Kendall Coffey.

There is little precedent for Congress passing a law that would undo several years of court rulings, Coffey said.

The challenge congressional leaders would face, Coffey said, would be crafting legislation that would withstand U.S. Supreme Court scrutiny. Congress would need to be mindful of the constitutional provision of separation of powers, he said.

The law passed by Congress and signed by Bush early Monday gave a federal court the right to consider whether Florida courts had violated Schiavo's rights, Coffey said.

The law did not ask federal courts to "start from scratch," Coffey said, and rule on other medical and legal questions surrounding the case.

Woman's wishes debated
Michael Schiavo insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a persistent vegetative state.

People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.

Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.

Schiavo's parents point to the absence of a living will, or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes. They argue that their daughter's due process rights have been violated and that she would not have wanted to die this way due to her faith as a Roman Catholic.

They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment.

Repeated court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and has the right to make decisions regarding her care.

CNN's Matt Smith, Bob Franken and Ninette Sosa contributed to this report

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 05:40 AM

Need another cup of coffee ??

Kind of an ironic comment considering your sig .... :cool:
I find it ironic that Bush makes this state law in Texas, and turns around and says 'err on the side of life for Shiavo.'

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 05:43 AM

Why can't they just let this Nobel Prize nominated doctor work with her for a while. He has worked with her, for only ten hours, and says she is NOT in a persistent vegetative state. Furthermore he has offered to work with her and fully believes she will improve to the point where she can communicate at the very least but possibly much, much more. Why would a nobel prize nominated doctor say something he did not truly believe? I don't know all of the facts of the case. There is so much spin in both directions how could anyone possibly know what the truth is? But, to ease the pain for the parents, wouldn't you at least allow some sort of therapy and rehabilitation to see what could happen? If in the end they found that she was in "PVS", none of this would have mattered to her according to the experts... they say she can't feel anything and doesn't know anything anyway. I would not want to live being able to do nothing at all... but if it eased the pain for my family to try different therapies and such... so be it. I do believe in a persons right to die if they are suffering in pain and dying anyway, but this woman is neither dying or suffering from pain according to the "experts". Just my opinion...
A court appointed doctor even says she's is in a PVS. FOr every one doctor that says on thing you find two that will say another.

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 05:48 AM

And I have to ask you onfire4god57, have you seen Terri, do you know her "husband", her doctors, the nurses who have cared for her? Did you know her when she had the, supposed, eating disorder that has been discounted by many doctors. I don't have the answers but, I don't think you do either. And if she can't feel anything as you and some are stating, why not give it a shot for her families sake... The ones who really love her? Michael Schiavo can move on with his life... oh that's right, he already has. As far as his concern that he cannot divorce her, because it is against his religion....isn't it also against his religion to have children out of wedlock, especially since he is already married. I don't think that he has done anything wrong in moving on with his life but he should cut out the dumb excuses. I just think in this instance there are far too many questions left unanswered to justify removing a feeding tube.
I thought of something that justifies removing the feding tube.....these were her wishes.

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 06:07 AM

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/bs050322.gif

JCshopper

03-23-2005, 07:07 AM

I'm sorry, I just can't believe that several years after the woman became ill this man all of a sudden remembered that was her wish. Sure hope my husband doesn't have that kind of a lapse in memory.

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 07:38 AM

I'm sorry, I just can't believe that several years after the woman became ill this man all of a sudden remembered that was her wish. Sure hope my husband doesn't have that kind of a lapse in memory.
No need to apologize, I've never heard anything about a 'lapse in memory' except from on here. From what I've heard on the news he was with her while they did treatments on her until it was decided that nothing more could be done. If he really wanted to leave her he would have. If he wanted to seperate from her he could have done that too. I see it as he is carrying out her wishes. If her peranets din;t go so such lengths to keep her alive this thread would have been about something different because it wouldn't have made headlines.
This woman is pretty much dead as it is. Leting her go, in some peoples opinions, is the best thing. When I hear about her parents or other people saying she smiles and responds I feel so sad, if only they could accept the realities of what is going on. :(

kidzpca

03-23-2005, 10:02 AM

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 10:11 AM

Schiavo parents file before entire appeals court
Their options include eventual U.S. Supreme Court appeal
NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 12:58 p.m. ET March 23, 2005

ATLANTA - Just hours after losing an appeal in federal court Wednesday, Terri Schiavo’s parents returned to the same court, but this time asked all 12 judges, not just a three-judge panel, to order that their daughter's feeding tube be reinserted.

The request for an “expedited rehearing” of the full 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta was made 10 hours after the three-judge panel rejected Bob and Mary Schindler’s earlier filing.

President Bush, who along with congressional Republicans has taken a stand in support of Schiavo's parents, reiterated Wednesday that "in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch, ought to err on the side of life, which we have. Now we'll watch the courts make their decisions."

Jolie Rouge

03-23-2005, 12:41 PM

Very sad situation. Yet after 15 years of no improvement and continual regression one would think that the Family (Parents, Siblings) and Husband would have come to the same conclusion. All that can be done has been, no improvement, time to let her go.

It took the husband 8 years to accept the "Reality" of Terri's situation. He faught for her, searched for help, accepted the help, even traveled throughout the country for treatments. To no avail...She is still in PVS....

So ... in 1991 Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center where her condition is assessed as improving; Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue her recovery instead he moves Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home. ( Nursing Homes are not know for their Rehab facilities. )

In November 1992 Terri is awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement to pay for her medical care and then in a seperate filing she is awarded $1.4 million in a malpractice trial. Further Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial for his pain & suffering and for "loss of consortium"

In Febuary of 1993 Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment and Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri. Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents in part because Schiavo posts "Do Not Resuscitate" order in Terri's medical chart which leads to Schiavo threatening the Schindler family with lawsuit due to their protests.

In August 1993 Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection (UT - can be quite painful ... appearently not an issue for M ) So Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian as it seems he doesn't have their daughter's best interests at heart. In the course of the case Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

In Febuary 1994 Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit. And in April Terri is returned to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

In September of 1995 Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection. Unfortunately for him, Terri recovers.

In May of 1997 Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration claiming that Terri is suffering PVS despite testimony from the RN's to the contrary. Coinciendaly in July Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced; they already have one child together. But it takes until August for Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

It took slightly over TWO years for M to order DNR added to her charts and denial of therapy even going against recomended Rehab facilities to place her in a nursing home instead. Then he refused Terri medical treeatment for an infection - fully aware by his own testimony - that it could have resulted in her death. His "desperate search for help" ended as soon as the courts awarded Terri a large cash settlement for her care - care that he then refused to authorise.

Does this sound like the actions of someone who "loves" his wife or does he merely view her as a possession ?

YNKYH8R

03-23-2005, 12:45 PM

Appeals court denies rehearing in Schiavo case
Parents likely to go next to U.S. Supreme Court

NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 3:23 p.m. ET March 23, 2005

ATLANTA - The full 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Wednesday denied a request by Terri Schiavo's parents that it rehear her case. Hours earlier, a three-judge panel of the same court rejected the request of the parents, who want their severely brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube reinserted.

In Florida, meanwhile, the state Senate began debating a bill that would prohibit patients like Terri Schiavo from being denied food and water if they didn’t express their wishes in writing. The bill's sponsor was not certain he could get enough support.

President Bush, who along with congressional Republicans has taken a stand in support of Schiavo's parents, reiterated Wednesday that "in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch, ought to err on the side of life, which we have. Now we'll watch the courts make their decisions."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan later said, “There really are not other legal options available to us.”

The three-judge appeals panel, in a 2-1 ruling issued overnight, said the parents “failed to demonstrate a substantial case on the merits of any of their claims” that the feeding tube should be reinserted immediately. The severely brain-damaged woman began her fifth full day without the tube, which has kept her alive for more than a decade.

"We also conclude that the district court’s carefully thought out decision to deny temporary relief in these circumstances is not an abuse of discretion," Judges Ed Carnes and Frank Hull wrote in the majority opinion.

“There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo,” the ruling said. “We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision concerning a question of law.”

In his dissent, Judge Charles Wilson said Schiavo’s “imminent” death would end the case before it could be fully considered. “In fact, I fail to see any harm in reinserting the feeding tube,” he wrote.

Wednesday’s ruling was the latest legal blow for Schiavo’s parents as their 41-year-old daughter’s life hangs in balance. Doctors have said that Schiavo could survive one to two weeks without water and nutrients.

On Tuesday, a federal judge in Tampa also rejected the parents’ emergency request.

Supreme Court appeal is last one
Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing the parents, said Wednesday that the couple could eventually appeal to the Supreme Court, the last level of judicial action.

The U.S. Supreme Court has declined to hear the Schiavo case three times before in appeals from state court rulings, but what makes it different this time is that the appeal would come from a federal ruling.

Howard Simon of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida said the ruling pointed out the limited role of government in these matters and the need for a living will “to keep politicians out of your personal life.”

“While I anticipate that the Supreme Court will have to decide whether to get into it, I do think we are coming to the end of this sad case,” he said.

The Schindlers have been locked for years in a battle with Schiavo’s husband over whether her feeding tube should be disconnected. State courts have sided with Michael Schiavo, who insists his wife told him she would never want to be kept alive artificially.

Even before the parents’ appeal was filed with the 11th Circuit, Michael Schiavo urged the court not to grant an emergency request to restore nutrition.

“That would be a horrific intrusion upon Mrs. Schiavo’s personal liberty,” said the filing by his attorney, George Felos. He filed a response to the Schindlers’ appeal and said he would go to the Supreme Court if the tube were ordered reconnected.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Her parents argue that she could get better and that she would never have wanted to be cut off from food and water.

Justice Kennedy would get case first
An emergency filing to the high court would go first to Justice Anthony Kennedy, a Reagan appointee who has staked a moderate position on social issues.

Kennedy would have the option to act on the petition alone, although on previous emergency requests involving Schiavo he has referred the matter to the full nine-member court.

The Supreme Court’s history on right-to-die cases is pretty thin.

It ruled in 1990 that a terminally ill person has a right to refuse life-sustaining treatment. And next term it plans to consider whether the federal government can prosecute doctors who help ill patients die.

Between those cases, the court has not said much, choosing to allow states to decide the issue.

Mary Schindler has pleaded with state lawmakers to save her daughter’s life.

“Please, senators, for the love of God, I’m begging you, don’t let my daughter die of thirst,” she said Tuesday outside her daughter’s hospice, before she broke down and was escorted away.

Florida lawmakers previously have failed to pass legislation that could have prevented the removal of the tube. They may consider another bill Wednesday, but state Sen. Daniel Webster said he has yet to persuade any lawmakers to change their votes.

Parents see 'significant decline'
In court documents, the Schindlers said their daughter began “a significant decline” late Monday. Her eyes were sunken and dark, and her lips and face were dry.

“While she still made eye contact with me when I spoke to her, she was becoming increasingly lethargic,” Bob Schindler said in the papers. “Terri no longer attempted to verbalize back to me when I spoke to her.”

Demonstrators who gathered outside Terri Schiavo’s hospice here decried the courts’ decisions. One woman was arrested Tuesday for trespassing after trying to bring Schiavo a cup of water.

“This is a clear cut case of judicial tyranny. All the judges who have ruled against Terri are tyrants, and we fully expected this decision,” said Tammy Melton, a high school teacher from Monterey, Tenn.

But Richard Avant, who lives down the street from the hospice, carried a sign reading “Honor her wishes.”

“We represent the silent majority, if you look at the polls,” Avant said. “We agree that Congress overstepped their bounds.”

Republican priority
Over the weekend, Republicans in Congress pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation aimed at prolonging Schiavo’s life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts.

On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore of Tampa rejected the parents’ request to have the tube reinserted, saying they had not established a “substantial likelihood of success” at a trial on their claim that Schiavo’s religious and due process rights have been violated.

The Bush administration “would have preferred a different ruling” from Whittemore, White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. “We hope that they would be able to have relief through the appeals process.”

The Justice Department also filed a court statement, saying an injunction was “plainly warranted” to carry out the wishes of Congress to provide federal court jurisdiction over the case.

YankeeMary

03-23-2005, 03:08 PM

So ... in 1991 Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center where her condition is assessed as improving; Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue her recovery instead he moves Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home. ( Nursing Homes are not know for their Rehab facilities. )

In November 1992 Terri is awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement to pay for her medical care and then in a seperate filing she is awarded $1.4 million in a malpractice trial. Further Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial for his pain & suffering and for "loss of consortium"

In Febuary of 1993 Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment and Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri. Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents in part because Schiavo posts "Do Not Resuscitate" order in Terri's medical chart which leads to Schiavo threatening the Schindler family with lawsuit due to their protests.

In August 1993 Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection (UT - can be quite painful ... appearently not an issue for M ) So Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian as it seems he doesn't have their daughter's best interests at heart. In the course of the case Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

In Febuary 1994 Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit. And in April Terri is returned to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

In September of 1995 Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection. Unfortunately for him, Terri recovers.

In May of 1997 Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration claiming that Terri is suffering PVS despite testimony from the RN's to the contrary. Coinciendaly in July Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced; they already have one child together. But it takes until August for Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

It took slightly over TWO years for M to order DNR added to her charts and denial of therapy even going against recomended Rehab facilities to place her in a nursing home instead. Then he refused Terri medical treeatment for an infection - fully aware by his own testimony - that it could have resulted in her death. His "desperate search for help" ended as soon as the courts awarded Terri a large cash settlement for her care - care that he then refused to authorise.

Does this sound like the actions of someone who "loves" his wife or does he merely view her as a possession ?

Did you not know that he flew her to California and had electodes placed internally??? This was BEFORE the law suit was won...whom do you think paid for that?
Jolie I have to ask...are you married? Would you truly and honestly want to live like she has for the past 15-16 years? Its one thing to be born like this but its another when it just happens to a regular "normal" person.

Jolie Rouge

03-23-2005, 04:09 PM

Did you not know that he flew her to California and had electodes placed internally??? This was BEFORE the law suit was won...whom do you think paid for that?

But within months of getting the settlement - he stopped ALL medical treatment. Ask yourself "WHY" ? Was all the seeking treatment just window dressing to gain sympathy and win the settlement ? The money was for her medical care and therapy - but within months of receiving the settlements he stops - even refusing to allow them to treat her for an infection.

How do you explain going from seeking exotic therapies to refusing basic care in a few short months -- the only thing that changed was the lawsuit was settled giving M. access to a LOT of money.

Jolie I have to ask...are you married? Would you truly and honestly want to live like she has for the past 15-16 years? Its one thing to be born like this but its another when it just happens to a regular "normal" person

Yes, twice in fact. First time for 4 years ... to my DH for almost 16 years.

What does that have to do with the following question ?

kidzpca

03-23-2005, 05:23 PM

Family facing dilemma like Terri Schiavo's makes an agonizing decision
Wednesday, March 23, 2005

"Little Jerry" has come home for the last time.

Bedridden and virtually unresponsive for half of his 20 years, Gerold Marcinkowski III is fighting the latest in a series of infections that has put him at the edge of death several times since an automobile accident when he was 4.

That accident, which caused a closed head injury, set off a series of events that led to a slow decline and multiple hospitalizations, including the latest hospitalization earlier this month. Jerry was brought home about a week ago.

While the Oshtemo Township resident remains connected to a feeding tube, oxygen and a morphine pump, his parents, Gerold and Lori Marcinkowski, now have accepted the advice from medical professionals -- and their own consciences -- not to use any more extreme measures to prolong their son's life.

They said they will no longer use antibiotics that have helped him through previous infections and will not resuscitate him if his situation worsens.

"We are at the point where we have decided to stop being selfish and let him go," Lori Marcinkowski said Tuesday morning. "It is a very, very hard decision.

"As parents, we never want to see a child go first. But when we knew that it was time to make a final decision, we asked family and friends and they all agreed," she said.

"Does he have any quality of life? No, he doesn't. Is it more humane to keep pumping in the antibiotics or to let him go? Let him go," she said.

"We love him," Gerold Marcinkowski said.

The Marcinkowskis say they decided to talk about their decision after watching the news about Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state longer than their son.

"We are hoping that if we tell our story, maybe they could read about it or that we can help other people in a similar situation," Lori Marcinkowski said.

"I can understand how Terri's parents feel. No parent wants to bury a child. But I can also understand how her husband feels. ... He sees the suffering and the pain that she feels."

As the Marcinkowskis talk, Jerry's eyes are open and move side to side or upward, never focusing. A machine records his heart rate at nearly 150 beats a minute. There is no movement other than his eyes and chest as he breathes.

Born deaf on June 7, 1984, Little Jerry, as his family calls him, was learning to sign and communicate just before the accident caused the closed-head injury that prompted a four-hour brain surgery, seizures and a year of intensive rehabilitation.

Lori Marcinkowski said that her son slowly regained some function and was attending Croyden Avenue School for children who need special education when he got sick and lost all the gains he had made.

Once again, Jerry underwent rehabilitation and made gains until he got severe pneumonia at about age 9, she said.

His life since then has been a tale of paralysis, hospitalizations, antibiotics to fight infections and an almost complete lack of responsiveness.

"We don't know if he knows us as his parents," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "We sense that he knows us as a constant in his life. We're the ones who bathe him, change his diaper, clip his nails."

Neither parent is able to work because it takes both of them to provide care 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Jerry's medical bills are paid primarily by Medicaid and Michigan Children's Special Health Care Services, formerly called Crippled Children.

The Marcinkowskis' share is about $5,000 a year, Gerold Marcinkowski said.

"We never saw Jerry as a burden on us," Lori Marcinkowski said. "We saw it more as a burden on his sisters. We couldn't do family things, and both of us couldn't attend school events at the same time."

Little Jerry's siblings are Elise, 22, Mary, 21, and Julie, 20.

"He has not been a burden to us at all," said Mary Marcinkowski, who lives at home and attends school. "The burden has been his."

The Marcinkowskis say they have taken that final step to ease that burden.

"We've pulled our hair out over this," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "But we can't see him suffer anymore. We pray and hope he goes in his sleep."

YankeeMary

03-23-2005, 05:54 PM

But within months of getting the settlement - he stopped ALL medical treatment. Ask yourself "WHY" ? Was all the seeking treatment just window dressing to gain sympathy and win the settlement ? The money was for her medical care and therapy - but within months of receiving the settlements he stops - even refusing to allow them to treat her for an infection.

How do you explain going from seeking exotic therapies to refusing basic care in a few short months -- the only thing that changed was the lawsuit was settled giving M. access to a LOT of money.

Yes, twice in fact. First time for 4 years ... to my DH for almost 16 years.

What does that have to do with the following question ?

I explain it by saying that after the failed trip to California several doctors deemed her PVS! Then a few months later the suit was won. I watched an interview of a man that was her guardian at law, those were his words.

I just can't imagine that if you were married and you told your husband you didn't want to live this way, you wouldn't expect him to uphold your wishes. I can't imagine going against my DH's wishes nor him mine.

YankeeMary

03-23-2005, 06:02 PM

Family facing dilemma like Terri Schiavo's makes an agonizing decision
Wednesday, March 23, 2005

"We are at the point where we have decided to stop being selfish and let him go," Lori Marcinkowski said Tuesday morning. "It is a very, very hard decision.

"Does he have any quality of life? No, he doesn't. Is it more humane to keep pumping in the antibiotics or to let him go? Let him go," she said.

Great post kidzpca.
Bless this families hearts, my heart goes out to them.

fatesfaery

03-23-2005, 07:17 PM

I explain it by saying that after the failed trip to California several doctors deemed her PVS! Then a few months later the suit was won. I watched an interview of a man that was her guardian at law, those were his words.

I just can't imagine that if you were married and you told your husband you didn't want to live this way, you wouldn't expect him to uphold your wishes. I can't imagine going against my DH's wishes nor him mine.

The Guardian ad Litem appointed by Govenor Bush was Dr. Jay Wolfson. I saw him interviewed on Nightline Monday night. I agree, I was amazed at how unbiased this man was.
I can't find the transcript of the Nightline interview, but you can read his report on his findings here http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/wolfson%27s%20report.pdf .

You can also read a Knight Rider interview here http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11175622.htm

And an audio NPR interview
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4544756

YankeeMary

03-23-2005, 08:24 PM

The Guardian ad Litem appointed by Govenor Bush was Dr. Jay Wolfson. I saw him interviewed on Nightline Monday night. I agree, I was amazed at how unbiased this man was.
I can't find the transcript of the Nightline interview, but you can read his report on his findings here http://www.miami.edu/ethics/schiavo/wolfson%27s%20report.pdf .

You can also read a Knight Rider interview here http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11175622.htm

And an audio NPR interview
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4544756
Thats him..thank you very much! You must have watched it at the same time I did. He did a great job and I was real proud of him. I liked the fact that he actually "liked" Teri and was pulling hard for her.

Jolie Rouge

03-23-2005, 09:21 PM

just can't imagine that if you were married and you told your husband you didn't want to live this way, you wouldn't expect him to uphold your wishes. I can't imagine going against my DH's wishes nor him mine.

For the zillionth time... Terri told other people ( parents, siblings, people in a Bible Study with her ) the EXACT opposite of what her husband "claims" she has said.

No other person can seem to verify what he claims. In fact his ex-girlfriend ( the one "just after" Terri's collapse but before the one who is the mother of his children ) testified under oath that he lied when he said that Terri said anything of the sort. Judge Greer refused to accept her sworn testimony.

Judge Greer refused to accept the sworn testimony of several RN's who cared for Terri at Palm Gardens refuted M. accounts of being unable to swallow nesitating the use of the feeding tube. Judge Greer then denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Judge Greer refused to accept the sworn testimonies of the people from her Bible Study, who were so moved by her words that several had writen notes in the journals from the class ( otherwise known as documentation - something M. does NOT have. )

As late as 2000 Judge Greer refused to accept affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Terri collasped in 1990, M. instituded a DNR on her charts in Febuary of 1993, orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection in August of 1993 and again in September of 1995 but it is not until spring of 1997 that he suddenly "remembers" Terri's allegedly stated 'wishes'. Oh, and just after he gets the ruling to pull Terri's feeding tube he announces his engagement to the mother of his children. Interesting timing, don't you think ?

I have stated my wishes, to my husband, my parents, my siblings, my friends, my doctor and my lawyer. For the past 19 years I have carried in my wallet a card which outlines my wishes - it is signed, witnessed and notarized and is next to both my driver's liscense and donor card.

My grandmother died a painful and protracted death from cancer at the age of 98 - the hospital would not give her anymore pain meds "because she might become addicted". I was working out how to give her an "accidental" overdose to release her from her pain when I was notified o her death. In fifteen years, M has not tried to "release" her - he has tried to eliminate her. I would have gone to jail to give my grandmother a painless death. M. has allowed her to suffer through untreated infections in hopes of her dying so he could inheirit. He has denied her treatments recommendby her doctors, kept her from rehab even when the doctors reported progress, and had anyone who showed her compassion removed from her care.

I have done everything in my power to protect my husband from having to make my decsion - I would not want him thinking he ordered the death I might choose. M. - by contrast - seems to revel in playing the poor martyed husband when his own words and actions show his true intent.

Jolie Rouge

03-23-2005, 09:39 PM

Schiavo's Parents Appeal to Supreme Court
By JILL BARTON

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - Their legal options nearly exhausted, Terri Schiavo's parents made a desperate appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday, asking justices to order resumption of nourishment for their severely brain-damaged daughter.

The late-night appeal followed rapid-fire developments in the case, with a federal appeals court refusing to order the reinsertion of Schiavo's feeding tube and the Florida Legislature deciding not to intervene in the epic struggle. Refusing to give up, Gov. Jeb Bush also sought court permission to take custody of Schiavo, who was on her sixth day without food or water.

The desperate flurry of activity came as President Bush suggested that Congress and the White House had done all they could to keep the woman alive. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, says his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially and has fought for years with her parents over whether she should be allowed to die.

In the emergency Supreme Court filing, Bob and Mary Schindler say their 41-year-old daughter faces an unjust and imminent death based on a decision by her husband to remove a feeding tube without strong proof of her consent. They alleged constitutional violations of due process and religious freedom.

The filing also argues Congress intended for Schiavo's tube to be reinserted, at least temporarily, when it passed an extraordinary bill last weekend that gave federal courts authority to fully review her case.

Time is of the essence. Schiavo's feeding tube was removed last Friday and doctors have said she likely would die within a week or two at a her hospice.

The Schindlers' attorney, David Gibbs III, declined immediate comment on the brief to The Associated Press.

Supporters of Schiavo's parents grew increasingly dismayed Wednesday, and 10 protesters were arrested outside her hospice for trying to bring her water. ``When I close my eyes at night, all I can see is Terri's face in front of me, dying, starving to death,'' Mary Schindler said outside the Pinellas Park hospice. ``Please, someone out there, stop this cruelty. Stop the insanity. Please let my daughter live.''

Schiavo's tube was pulled Friday afternoon with a Florida judge's approval. By late Tuesday, her eyes were sunken and her skin, lips and tongue were parched, said Barbara Weller, an attorney for the Schindlers.

Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Her parents argue that she could get better and that she would never have wanted to be cut off from food and water. Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, has argued that his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially, and a state judge has repeatedly ruled in his favor.

The battle played out on several fronts Wednesday.

A three-judge panel from the Atlanta-based 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled against the family early Wednesday, and hours later the full court refused to reconsider; the vote breakdown was not provided.

Gov. Jeb Bush and the state's social services agency filed a petition in state court to take custody of Schiavo and, presumably, reconnect her feeding tube. It cites new allegations of neglect and challenges Schiavo's diagnosis as being in a persistent vegetative state. The request is based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state who observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination of her.

The neurologist, William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, is a bioethicist who is also an active member in Christian organizations, including two whose leaders have spoken out against the tube's removal.

Ronald Cranford of the University of Minnesota, a neurologist who was among those who made a previous diagnosis of Schiavo, said ``there isn't a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won't find her in a vegetative state.''

The long-shot custody request by Bush was made before Judge George Greer, the same judge who has presided over the case for several years and ordered the feeding tube removed last month. Greer planned to decide by noon Thursday on whether the case would go forward. He issued an emergency order Wednesday to keep the Department of Children & Families from reconnecting the tube.

The Florida Legislature also jumped back into the fray, but senators rejected a bill that would have prohibited patients like Schiavo from being denied food and water if they did not express their wishes in writing. The measure was rejected 21-18. ``We're heartbroken,'' Bush spokeswoman Alia Faraj said. Gibbs also said he was disappointed lawmakers didn't try ``to help Terri and help future generations of Floridians.''

The Legislature stepped in before, in 2003, and Schiavo's feeding tube was reinserted. But ``Terri's Law'' was later struck down by the state Supreme Court as an unconstitutional attempt to interfere in the courts.

The Senate vote Wednesday came after a bitter debate, with Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, watching from the gallery above the floor. He covered his eyes with his hands and lowered his head during the debate. ``I'm here pleading for mercy. Have mercy on Theresa Marie Schiavo,'' said bill sponsor Sen. Dan Webster, a Republican.

But Senate Democratic Leader Les Miller warned: ``By the time the ink is dry on the governor's signature, it will be declared unconstitutional, just like it was before.''

A lawyer for Michael Schiavo said he was pleased by what happened in the appeals court and the Senate. But he was bothered that the governor was attempting to intervene again. ``They have no more power than you or I or a person walking down the street to say we have the right to take Terri Schiavo,'' attorney George Felos said.

Meanwhile, President Bush suggested that he and Congress had done their best to help the parents prolong Schiavo's life, and the White House said it had no further legal options. ``I believe that in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch, ought to err on the side of life, which we have,'' the president said. ``Now we'll watch the courts make their decisions.''

Federal courts were given jurisdiction to review Schiavo's case after Republicans in Congress pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation over the weekend aimed at prolonging Schiavo's life. But federal courts at two levels rebuffed the family. ``There is no denying the absolute tragedy that has befallen Mrs. Schiavo,'' Judges Ed Carnes and Frank M. Hull said in the 2-1 decision by the 11th circuit panel. ``We all have our own family, our own loved ones, and our own children. However, we are called upon to make a collective, objective decision.''

Dissenting Judge Charles R. Wilson said Schiavo's ``imminent'' death would end the case before it could be fully considered. ``I fail to see any harm in reinserting the feeding tube,'' he wrote.

03/23/05 23:42

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-us-10-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050323%2F2342993106.htm&sc=1110&photoid=20050323FLEV105

janelle

03-23-2005, 09:41 PM

I just posted an article on living wills and it pretty much debunks them. Even if Terri had one her parents could still be trying to keep her alive and working to do so. So what if she said at one time or another she wouldn't want to be kept alive like that, her parents or anyone else can say she said the exact opposite or changed her mind. If someone in a family wants to fight to keep you alive they can. Parents, siblings, children.

The perfect scenario would to be for every one to agree but in this case as in so many others people don't. Heck the doctors don't even agree. This is why we try to leave it up to God as much as possible.

Jolie Rouge

03-23-2005, 10:14 PM

jdglmg

03-23-2005, 10:22 PM

nightrider127

03-24-2005, 04:06 AM

now this is a shame ....

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050323/i/r4209066064.jpg

Wed Mar 23, 1:55 PM ET

Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=1&u=/050323/ids_photos_ts/r4209066064.jpg

Sorry Jolie, I don't agree. That young woman could have choked to death on that water he wanted to give her. I know he meant well, but you just don't go giving water or anything else to someonne unless you know for sure they can handle it. He got what he deserved.

FetishKtn

03-24-2005, 04:33 AM

Has the irony of this struck anyone else? Anyone in a coma, unconscious, whatever, can NOT swallow/gag. Those people wanting to bring her water? Let them give it to her. She'd definitely die. Most likely, she'd aspirate the water, which can lead to aspiration pneumonia and/or death.
So, by giving her water, they were really trying to kill her. But they SWEAR they're trying to save her life! Hypocritical, much?

excuseme

03-24-2005, 05:06 AM

Yep it is a shame. Why isn't this kid in school? Why are his parents influencing him to attempt to cause harm to Terri? Why are his parents using him as a pawn? Why are there no truancy officers taking these children to school?

now this is a shame ....

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050323/i/r4209066064.jpg

Wed Mar 23, 1:55 PM ET

Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=1&u=/050323/ids_photos_ts/r4209066064.jpg

excuseme

03-24-2005, 05:07 AM

It's called video editting. She has no brain stem.

YankeeMary

03-24-2005, 05:27 AM

For the zillionth time... Terri told other people ( parents, siblings, people in a Bible Study with her ) the EXACT opposite of what her husband "claims" she has said.

I have read and read on this and do not remember ever it being stated that Teri "told" anyone that she wanted to live like this. Her parent, sibilings, and friends said they "THINK" Teri would due to her religious beliefs. And did they just "remember" Teri stated this in Bible Study? Was it written down? Do they have any proof she said it? Are we just to trust these people that want her alive that she said this over 15-16 years ago? Imagine trusting a group of people that love her but not her husband. I think I am seeing a double standard here. The thing is...they do not matter in the eyes of the law, her husband is what matters and his word means more obviously then theirs, since it has been proven time and time again that Teri's parents have been grasping at straws for the past 8-9 years ago. The bottom line is that her brain no longer exists. Anything else is a waste of time and money. I know it sounds cruel but its the truth. While the case went to the courts here in Atlanta, the clerks and such could not go home until a decision was made. I went to bed at 11:30 those poor clerks were still at work. Tax payers had to pay them to remain there. Its not my battle why should I foot the bill for it? She has been on state medical insurance for years, why should I pay for it? If you did me wrong and I sued you in court and I lost then I would have to pay court costs. Why don't her parents have to foot the bill? They are the ones pushing the issue. And for the bazillionth time, SHE IS BRAIN DEAD!!! I truly can't imagine that people believe that numerous doctors, her guardian at law, judges, courts all are in some type of plot to murder this woman just so Micheal can inherit the money, that has long since been spent. These are professional people that have gone to college for several years, built up their reputations, managed their careers, only to give it all up for one man and his plot to murder his wife..lol...it is totally ridiculous.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 05:38 AM

now this is a shame ....

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050323/i/r4209066064.jpg

Wed Mar 23, 1:55 PM ET

Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=1&u=/050323/ids_photos_ts/r4209066064.jpg
And just how was he expected to give her this water? She can't swallow, if she tried to she might have asperated and died.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 05:52 AM

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/tmwha050323.gif
http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/bs050323.gif

Willow

03-24-2005, 06:36 AM

For the ones that think she should be kept alive, do you really think that she would want to live this way?

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 07:08 AM

Also, for all of those who say that he/she wouldn't want to live this way how can you possibly say that you would want her to? That just doesn't make sense.

tigger4

03-24-2005, 07:29 AM

Just in on CNN. The Supreme Court has denied the Schindler's appeal.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 07:42 AM

U.S. Supreme Court rejects Schiavo appeal
Republican congressional leaders had filed papers backing parents

BREAKING NEWS
NBC, MSNBC and news services
Updated: 10:30 a.m. ET March 24, 2005

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Supreme Court on Thursday rejected an appeal by Terri Schiavo's parents to order resumption of nourishment for the severely brain-damaged woman.

In their emergency filing, Bob and Mary Schindler had said their 41-year-old daughter faces an unjust and imminent death based on a decision by her husband to remove a feeding tube without strong proof of her consent. They alleged constitutional violations of due process and religious freedom.

The filing also argued Congress intended for Schiavo’s tube to be reinserted, at least temporarily, when it passed an extraordinary law last weekend that gave federal courts authority to fully review her case. Previously, only Florida state courts had ruled, and always in favor of Michael Schiavo, who as Terri Schiavo's husband argued that she told him that she would not have wanted to live in her condition.

Schiavo’s feeding tube was removed last Friday and doctors have said she likely would die within a week or two at a hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla.

The filing was seen as a long shot. The Supreme Court had declined other opportunities to get involved in the Schiavo case and legal experts said there was little reason to believe justices would intervene this time.

Republicans join appeal
Republican leaders in Congress refused to give up entirely Wednesday. In legal papers prepared for filing at the Supreme Court, they argued that the federal appeals court had “failed to adhere to the plain meaning” of the emergency legislation.

The legislation required that a new, independent evaluation of her case be made, according to papers. It also required the courts to “ensure that desperately needed nutritional support” is provided to Schiavo while the review is conducted, the papers stated.

Lawyers for Michael Schiavo said in their Supreme Court filing that Terri Schiavo would want to die. The filing said Congress violated the Constitution when it passed a bill allowing federal court review of her case, because that tried to overturn state court rulings in favor of Michael Schiavo.

“That is not an exercise of legislative power, but trial by legislature. ... Any law that suspends, nullifies, or reverses a final court judgment is an exercise of judicial, not legislative power,” the filing said.

The late-night appeal followed rapid-fire developments in the case, with a federal appeals court refusing to order the reinsertion of Schiavo’s feeding tube.

In Florida, meanwhile, Gov. Jeb Bush tried to build support for Schiavo's parents by saying new evidence suggests her condition was misdiagnosed, even though doctors have said for years that Schiavo is severely brain-damaged and in a persistent vegetative state.

Republicans in the Florida Senate tried to pass a law that would prohibit patients like Schiavo from being denied food and water if they didn’t express their wishes in writing, but their effort was defeated.

The flurry of activity came as President Bush suggested that Congress and the White House had done all they could to keep the woman alive.

‘Please let my daughter live’
Supporters of Schiavo’s parents grew increasingly dismayed, and 13 protesters were arrested Wednesday outside her hospice for trying to bring her water.

“When I close my eyes at night, all I can see is Terri’s face in front of me, dying, starving to death,” Mary Schindler said outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Fla., where her daughter is being cared for. “Please, someone out there, stop this cruelty. Stop the insanity. Please let my daughter live.”

Jeb Bush and Florida’s social services agency filed a petition in state court to take custody of Schiavo and, presumably, reconnect her feeding tube. It cites new allegations of neglect and challenges Schiavo’s diagnosis as being in a persistent vegetative state. The request is based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state who observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination of her.

The neurologist, William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, is a bioethicist who is also an active member in Christian organizations, including two whose leaders have spoken out against the tube’s removal.

The long-shot custody request by Bush was made before Judge George Greer, the same judge who has presided over the case for several years and issued the ruling last month that allowed the feeding tube to be removed. Greer planned to decide by noon Thursday on whether the case would go forward.

But Ronald Cranford of the University of Minnesota, a neurologist who was among those who made a previous diagnosis of Schiavo, said “there isn’t a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won’t find her in a vegetative state.”

Supreme Court appeal is last one
While the Supreme Court has declined to hear the case previously in appeals from state court rulings, what makes it different this time is that the appeal would come from a federal ruling.

Howard Simon of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida said the ruling pointed out the limited role of government in these matters and the need for a living will “to keep politicians out of your personal life.”

“While I anticipate that the Supreme Court will have to decide whether to get into it, I do think we are coming to the end of this sad case,” he said.

The Supreme Court’s history on right-to-die cases is pretty thin. It ruled in 1990 that a terminally ill person has a right to refuse life-sustaining treatment. In its next term, it plans to consider whether the federal government can prosecute doctors who help ill patients die.

Between those cases, the court has chosen to allow states to decide the issue.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Her parents argue that she could get better and that she would never have wanted to be cut off from food and water.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 08:10 AM

What if there is a riot and they try to bum rush the Hospice?

Linus1223

03-24-2005, 10:10 AM

For the zillionth time... Terri told other people ( parents, siblings, people in a Bible Study with her ) the EXACT opposite of what her husband "claims" she has said.

No other person can seem to verify what he claims. In fact his ex-girlfriend ( the one "just after" Terri's collapse but before the one who is the mother of his children ) testified under oath that he lied when he said that Terri said anything of the sort. Judge Greer refused to accept her sworn testimony.

You don't belive Terri's husband? Well I don't believe her parents, siblings, or any of the supposed Bible Study people.

Judge Greer is not the only judge to hear the case. TWENTY SEVEN judges have heard the case and not a single one of them think that Terri's parents' case has any merit or credibility.

Linus1223

03-24-2005, 10:13 AM

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 10:50 AM

March 22, 2005
Terri Schiavo Case: Has it spurred you to get a living will? * 98437 responses

Yes
78%

No
22%

March 19, 2005
Should Terri Schiavo be placed back on a feeding tube? * 465006 responses

Yes
37%

No
63%

March 18, 2005
Who should decide Terri Schiavo's fate? * 155168 responses

Parents
37%

Husband
63%

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 10:52 AM

A shame? The kid BROKE THE LAW and he was justifiably arrested.
If he had made it inside and poured it down her throat and she died it would have been 2nd degree murder, or involuntary manslaughter. Then Jolie would have wanted him to face the DP. ;)

JCshopper

03-24-2005, 10:54 AM

No matter what any one may think about the case, I can't believe anyone could be angry at a 10 to 12 year old child for feeling strongly about the suffering of another human being. My little one, though I would not have him there, would cry at the thought of something like this. This child didn't mean to hurt anyone, he just hurts at the thought of what this woman must be going through. Kids do not understand all of the implications and ramifications of their actions. Have a heart! No, his parents should not have had him there, just to spare him the emotional turmoil. I just hope that, because Terri's body is suffering more damage due to lack of nourishment, that she goes peacefully. And I pray that the judges and doctors were right and she isn't feeling any of this.

fatesfaery

03-24-2005, 11:48 AM

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRAIN_DAMAGED_WOMAN?SITE=ILROR&SECTION=HOME

Mar 24, 2:39 PM EST

Fla. Judge Won't Hear Schiavo Arguments

By MITCH STACY
Associated Press Writer

CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) -- A state judge and the U.S. Supreme Court refused Thursday to intervene in the case of Terri Schiavo, leaving the brain-damaged woman's parents with only the slimmest hopes in their fight to keep her alive.

Gov. Jeb Bush's request seeking custody cited new allegations of neglect and challenges the diagnoses that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, but Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer wasn't convinced and declined to hear Bush's arguments.

Greer's decision Thursday afternoon came hours after the U.S. Supreme Court refused to order her feeding tube reinserted. The decisions reduce chances for quick intervention to reconnect the tube, which was pulled last Friday. Doctors have said Schiavo, 41, likely would die in a week or two without nourishment.

Schiavo's husband, Michael, had urged the high court not to intervene, saying her case has been endlessly litigated and state courts have agreed with him that she would not want to live in her current condition.

The appeal by her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, was part of a rush of legal activity in the unprecedented right-to-die struggle. They have frantically tried to reconnect the tube because they deny Michael Schiavo's arguments that she has no hope for recovery.

The Supreme Court justices didn't explain their decision, which was received by somber supporters outside the woman's hospice in Pinellas Pines. It was at least the fifth time the nation's high court declined to get involved in the Schiavo case.

"The governor is disappointed (at the Supreme Court decision) and will continue to do whatever he can within the law to save Terri's life," Bush spokesman Jacob DiPietre said.

Outside the Pinellas County courthouse, about 30 protesters knelt in prayer.

Greer had issued an emergency order Wednesday to keep the state Department of Children & Families from reconnecting the tube. On Thursday, even before ruling on the custody question, Greer reinforced that order.

Also Thursday, David Gibbs III, the attorney for the Schindlers, filed an amended version of his still-pending civil rights lawsuit against Michael Schiavo and others in federal court in Tampa.

"The new claims raised are even more insubstantial than the old claims," said George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney. He said he is hopeful the case will soon be peacefully settled and criticized state officials.

"It saddens me greatly that we have to run to court to get court orders to protect Terri Schiavo from the abuse of the state of Florida," Felos said. "The conduct of the executive branch of the state of Florida has been reprehensible in this case."

But Gibbs said he wished the high court "waded in," adding that the justices "could have provided great guidance in this confusing issue."

The Schindlers filed their request with the high court late Wednesday, only hours after a federal appeals court refused to order the tube reinserted and the Florida Legislature decided not to intervene.

Lawyers for Michael Schiavo said in their Supreme Court filing that Congress violated the Constitution when it passed a bill allowing federal court review of her case, because that tried to overturn state court rulings.

Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee and Republican Sens. Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania and Mel Martinez of Florida filed a friend-of-the-court brief late Wednesday siding with Schiavo's parents.

"This is not about Terri anymore. This is all a political view," Scott Schiavo, Michael Schiavo's brother, told CNN on Thursday. "They're being bullied, actually, by these right-for-life people, basically telling them, `If you don't go our way, you won't get our votes.'"

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.

Her parents and their doctors argue that she could get better and that she would never have wanted to be cut off from food and water. Bush's challenge to the disagnosis on Terri Schiavo's brain damage is based on the opinion of a neurologist working for the state who observed Schiavo at her bedside but did not conduct an examination of her.

The neurologist, William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, is a bioethicist who is also an active member in Christian organizations, including two whose leaders have spoken out against the tube's removal.

Ronald Cranford of the University of Minnesota, a neurologist who was among those who made a previous diagnosis of Schiavo, said "there isn't a reputable, credible neurologist in the world who won't find her in a vegetative state."

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 12:25 PM

Schiavo parents' supporters begin to lose hope
With legal options dwindling, pressure now on Gov. Bush
By Mark Potter -- Correspondent NBC News
Updated: 12:28 p.m. ET March 24, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - As the Supreme Court again refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, the crowd holding vigil outside of her hospice continued to swell on Thursday.

What was the reaction among the crowd to the Supreme Court decison against Terri Schiavo’s parents?

The reaction form the crowd here at the hospice was one of anger, disappointment, and sadness.

They say they expected this ruling from the Supreme Court, they are not surprised, but they are still quite upset that the family has lost.

Most importantly, several people in the crowd, including some of the protest leaders, now say that everything focuses on Florida Gov. Jeb Bush. They are urging him to take action, to use the Florida Department of Children and Families to take custody of Terri Schiavo and they are somewhat critical of him for not doing that — even though a court has strictly forbidden the state from taking control of Terri Schiavo.

So, with no hope in the courts, they are turning at the 11th hour to Governor Jeb Bush, urging him to take action, under what they say is his right under state law, to take custody of Terri Schiavo and protect her.

Some have been very critical of the governor for making statements about the power that he and the state has to take control of the situation and not doing it in the end.

Can you describe the scene of the vigil outside the hospice?

Well there are people waiting outside the hospice facility — most of them in support of Terri Schiavo’s parents and most in support of keeping her alive. Most are from the area, but some have traveled in from other places.

Most of them are conservative Christians. They spend most of their time just standing by —holding signs, debating, sometimes praying, chanting, and singing. But, mostly, they are just standing by, as we all are, for word from the various courts and political bodies that have been involved in this. They have been hoping for some word, something to have hope for Terri’s survival, but they’ve gotten nothing but bad news all along the way.

Who are the protesters? Men, women, their ages?

The protesters represent all ages — men, women, and children. Many of them are older. These are people who have the time to come out and stand outside the hospice.

The crowd does swell in the evening. In part because they want to get on the primetime television cable shows — to be in the background — but, also because some of them are just coming from work. There are a few people here who are handicapped, who are in wheelchairs. It’s a wide range. We saw yesterday an act of civil disobedience in which three adults were arrested, along with three children. So, it runs the gamut.

Are the protesters Catholics, evangelical Christians?

It’s a range. There are Evangelicals, there are people here with the Christian Coalition, there are Catholics. There is one person holding up a sign indicating that she is Jewish. It is really hard to pin down the crowd in terms of its religious make-up, except to say broadly that most of them seem to be conservative Christians.

Is there a great deal of drama with each twist & turn of the story?

Word spreads very quickly. The media encampment and the protesters are right next to each other. We are separated by a road and often the reporters and protesters mingle among the protesters shooting pictures, doing interviews, or just talking to them. So, the word usually comes from the media first, the protesters hear it right away, and they react.

I can tell you that for the last couple of days, they’ve been pretty much shell-shocked because every report they get is negative for them. They are here fighting to keep Terri alive and the courts have ruled consistently against them and against Terri Schiavo’s parents, so they don’t have a lot of hope for the system. Yet, they are still here waiting.

When the final word comes that there is no hope, the expectation is that they will be here in a vigil, waiting for some word on Terri’s fate, praying for some miracle. But, they certainly haven’t seen it yet.

Are there any opponents to re-inserting Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube there?

There are just a few people here, in the crowd, who are here in support of Michael Schiavo, Terri’s husband. They are urging that the feeding tube not be re-inserted.

One sign indicated that 20 judges have heard the case, and it’s time for the court’s will to be done.

They stand quietly, a little bit away from the others. There doesn’t seem to be any problem between them, their views are respected. But, they are certainly not part of the mainstream here.

At what point does it comes to an end?

With both the Supreme Court and Judge Greer ruling against the parents — that is probably it, in terms of legal action.

Some people are urging Governor Jeb Bush to take custody of Terri Schiavo under the rules of the Department of Children and Family - as they might take custody of an abused child. But, yesterday, they were expressly forbidden by Judge Greer to do that. In fact, Judge Greer said that he was notifying all of the sheriffs in the area to make sure that didn’t happen.

So, now if Governor Bush were to order that Terri Schiavo be taken into custody, he would be in direct violation of a judicial order. So, given that, if the Supreme Court and the Circuit Court rule against the parents of Terri Schiavo, that probably will be it. Also, because the U.S. Congress and the Florida legislature will not be in session, so they will not be able to intervene either.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7284660

POLL :[i]Terri Schiavo: Do politicians really care or are they pushing their agenda?
56738 responses

Politicians really care - - 11%
Pushing their own agenda - 89%

janelle

03-24-2005, 12:29 PM

And a little child shall lead them. Sometimes kids know the truth more than adults. Have more compassion than adults.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 12:36 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 12:50 PM

Also, for all of those who say that he/she wouldn't want to live this way how can you possibly say that you would want her to? That just doesn't make sense.

If her husband had not - begining in 1993 - denied her medical care - denied her rehabilitation - denied her the company of compassionate people to care for her - forcing her to remain on a feeding tube despite the sworn testimony of doctors and nurses - denied even submitting to the tests to verify whether or ot she could swallow - THEN Terri would NOT BE IN THIS CONDITION.

He created the very situation that he then claims is intolerable.

You don't belive Terri's husband? Well I don't believe her parents, siblings, or any of the supposed Bible Study people.

87 people including medical professions who actually cared for Terri ( as oppossed to those being paid by M. to reach a rather biased opinion )

versus

one person - who is set to inheirit the funds that were to pay for his wife's care - care he has denied - while he has created a new family for himself and still played the martyed "husband" any time a camerea or mic is available.

I think I will go with the parents, siblings, doctors, nurses, friends and aquaintances who are not to profit from this woman's death.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 12:54 PM

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:06 PM

If we are to judge our society (as Hubert Humphrey once suggested) by how we protect the weakest among us, America is in trouble.

I think the courts have done a great job of protecting her (Terri's) rights. Either that or the Schindler's need a better lawyer.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 01:14 PM

Sure - everyone should be denied medical care and then starved to death.

Did I miss that in the Constitution somewhere ??

Hey - why don't we just start refusing food and water to all the inmates in prison ? Oh - that would be "cruel & inhumane treatment" ( those pesky prisonors will file a lawsuit if they can't be served extra crunchy peanut butter or Twinkies. So I guess that won't work... ) but since M. has made darn sure that Terri CAN NOT speak for herself we will just have to take his word for it.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:16 PM

one person - who is set to inheirit the funds that were to pay for his wife's care
Last night on the news they said that only 40,000 of the original malpractice suit claim of 1 million is left, are speaking of another sum of money? Because if you are it must be a lot cause he turned down 1 million already.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:19 PM

Hey - why don't we just start refusing food and water to all the inmates in prison ? Oh - that would be "cruel & inhumane treatment" ( those pesky prisonors will file a lawsuit if they can't be served extra crunchy peanut butter or Twinkies. So I guess that won't work... ) but since M. has made darn sure that Terri CAN NOT speak for herself we will just have to take his word for it.
I don't know, are those prisoners in a PVS?

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 01:29 PM

KarlaJorge

03-24-2005, 01:40 PM

Last night on the news they said that only 40,000 of the original malpractice suit claim of 1 million is left

Yes he has spent the rest, and very badly too, cause it was not in her best interest.

Why doesn't he want the other million that was offered to him, cause it is more important that she dies than to have the money and have her alive, afraid that she may speak for herself later on.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:46 PM

Yes he has spent the rest, and very badly too, cause it was not in her best interest.

Why doesn't he want the other million that was offered to him, cause it is more important that she dies than to have the money and have her alive, afraid that she may speak for herself later on.
Speak for herself later on.......? I don't understand how people can pass such harsh judgement. Over a person that doctors haven't examined. The courts were satisfied, even the court appointed doctor was satisfied.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:47 PM

Yes he has spent the rest, and very badly too, cause it was not in her best interest.

Why doesn't he want the other million that was offered to him, cause it is more important that she dies than to have the money and have her alive, afraid that she may speak for herself later on.
That's funny because they said last night that it went to her care and rehabilitation.

KarlaJorge

03-24-2005, 01:57 PM

That's funny because they said last night that it went to her care and rehabilitation.

Summary of expenses paid from Terri’s 1.2 Million Dollar medical trust fund (jury awarded 1992)
NOTE: In his November 1993 Petition Schiavo alleges the 1993 guardianship asset balance as $761,507.50

Atty Gwyneth Stanley $10,668.05
Atty Deborah Bushnell $65,607.00
Atty Steve Nilson $7,404.95
Atty Pacarek $1,500.00
Atty Richard Pearse (GAL) $4,511.95
Atty George Felos $397,249.99

Other

1st Union/South Trust Bank $55,459.85
Michael Schiavo $10,929.95

Total $545,852.34

And this is an old report, so that means these people have received more, and thee has been more money spent on these type of issues. And who knows what he has spent for himself and who knows what else.

YNKYH8R

03-24-2005, 01:58 PM

"Theresa Marie Schiavo cannot live without a nutrition and hydration tube and Dr. Cheshire does not suggest otherwise. By clear and convincing evidence, it was determined that she did not want to live under such burdensome conditions and that she would refuse such medical treatment/assistance," Greer wrote.

YankeeMary

03-24-2005, 03:03 PM

Terri wasn't eigther - may not be even now - but what the hey - M. is the husband, he must know what is best..... even if he was unfaithful to Terri before 1991 .. even with the allegations of abuse prior to 1991. Guess he just needed to "whup on 'er to lurn 'er a lesson". We poor woman all should have a man willing to deny us medication when we have potentially fatal infections, deny us therapy even when we are improving, and see that we are starved to death for our own good.
You are beginning to sound as desperate as her parents, grasping at straws. THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT HE ABUSED TERI!!! No police reports or ER records. Just let this woman pass in peace for petes sake.

janelle

03-24-2005, 03:25 PM

Not Dead at All
Why Congress was right to stick up for Terri Schiavo.

By Harriet McBryde Johnson
Posted Wednesday, March 23, 2005, at 4:50 AM PT

The Terri Schiavo case is hard to write about, hard to think about. Those films are hard to look at. I see that face, maybe smiling, maybe not, and I am reminded of a young woman I knew as a child, lying on a couch, brain-damaged, apparently unresponsive, and deeply beloved—freakishly perhaps but genuinely so—living proof of one family's no-matter-what commitment. I watch nourishment flowing into a slim tube that runs through a neat, round, surgically created orifice in Ms. Schiavo's abdomen, and I'm almost envious. What effortless intake! Due to a congenital neuromuscular disease, I am having trouble swallowing, and it's a constant struggle to get by mouth the calories my skinny body needs. For whatever reason, I'm still trying, but I know a tube is in my future. So, possibly, is speechlessness. That's a scary thought. If I couldn't speak for myself, would I want to die? If I become uncommunicative, a passive object of other people's care, should I hope my brain goes soft and leaves me in peace?

My emotional response is powerful, but at bottom it's not important. It's no more important than anyone else's, not what matters. The things that ought to matter have become obscured in our communal clash of gut reactions. Here are 10 of them:

1. Ms. Schiavo is not terminally ill. She has lived in her current condition for 15 years. This is not about end-of-life decision-making. The question is whether she should be killed by starvation and dehydration.

2. Ms. Schiavo is not dependent on life support. Her lungs, kidneys, heart, and digestive systems work fine. Just as she uses a wheelchair for mobility, she uses a tube for eating and drinking. Feeding Ms. Schiavo is not difficult, painful, or in any way heroic. Feeding tubes are a very simple piece of adaptive equipment, and the fact that Ms. Schiavo eats through a tube should have nothing to do with whether she should live or die.

3. This is not a case about a patient's right to refuse treatment. I don't see eating and drinking as "treatment," but even if they are, everyone agrees that Ms. Schiavo is presently incapable of articulating a decision to refuse treatment. The question is who should make the decision for her, and whether that substitute decision-maker should be authorized to kill her by starvation and dehydration.

4. There is a genuine dispute as to Ms. Schiavo's awareness and consciousness. But if we assume that those who would authorize her death are correct, Ms. Schiavo is completely unaware of her situation and therefore incapable of suffering physically or emotionally. Her death thus can't be justified for relieving her suffering.

5. There is a genuine dispute as to what Ms. Schiavo believed and expressed about life with severe disability before she herself became incapacitated; certainly, she never stated her preferences in an advance directive like a living will. If we assume that Ms. Schiavo is aware and conscious, it is possible that, like most people who live with severe disability for as long as she has, she has abandoned her preconceived fears of the life she is now living. We have no idea whether she wishes to be bound by things she might have said when she was living a very different life. If we assume she is unaware and unconscious, we can't justify her death as her preference. She has no preference.

6. Ms. Schiavo, like all people, incapacitated or not, has a federal constitutional right not to be deprived of her life without due process of law.

7. In addition to the rights all people enjoy, Ms. Schiavo has a statutory right under the Americans With Disabilities Act not to be treated differently because of her disability. Obviously, Florida law would not allow a husband to kill a nondisabled wife by starvation and dehydration; killing is not ordinarily considered a private family concern or a matter of choice. It is Ms. Schiavo's disability that makes her killing different in the eyes of the Florida courts. Because the state is overtly drawing lines based on disability, it has the burden under the ADA of justifying those lines.

8. In other contexts, federal courts are available to make sure state courts respect federally protected rights. This review is critical not only to the parties directly involved, but to the integrity of our legal system. Although review will very often be a futile last-ditch effort—as with most death-penalty habeas petitions—federalism requires that the federal government, not the states, have the last word. When the issue is the scope of a guardian's authority, it is necessary to allow other people, in this case other family members, standing to file a legal challenge.

9. The whole society has a stake in making sure state courts are not tainted by prejudices, myths, and unfounded fears—like the unthinking horror in mainstream society that transforms feeding tubes into fetish objects, emblematic of broader, deeper fears of disability that sometimes slide from fear to disgust and from disgust to hatred. While we should not assume that disability prejudice tainted the Florida courts, we cannot reasonably assume that it did not.

10. Despite the unseemly Palm Sunday pontificating in Congress, the legislation enabling Ms. Schiavo's parents to sue did not take sides in the so-called culture wars. It did not dictate that Ms. Schiavo be fed. It simply created a procedure whereby the federal courts could decide whether Ms. Schiavo's federally protected rights have been violated.

In the Senate, a key supporter of a federal remedy was Iowa Sen. Tom Harkin, a progressive Democrat and longtime friend of labor and civil rights, including disability rights. Harkin told reporters, "There are a lot of people in the shadows, all over this country, who are incapacitated because of a disability, and many times there is no one to speak for them, and it is hard to determine what their wishes really are or were. So I think there ought to be a broader type of a proceeding that would apply to people in similar circumstances who are incapacitated."

I hope against hope that I will never be one of those people in the shadows, that I will always, one way or another, be able to make my wishes known. I hope that I will not outlive my usefulness or my capacity (at least occasionally) to amuse the people around me. But if it happens otherwise, I hope whoever is appointed to speak for me will be subject to legal constraints. Even if my guardian thinks I'd be better off dead—even if I think so myself—I hope to live and die in a world that recognizes that killing, even of people with the most severe disabilities, is a matter of more than private concern.

Clearly, Congress's Palm Sunday legislation was not the "broader type of proceeding" Harkin and I want. It does not define when and how federal court review will be available to all of those in the shadows, but rather provides a procedure for one case only. To create a general system of review, applicable whenever life-and-death decisions intersect with disability rights, will require a reasoned, informed debate unlike what we've had until now. It will take time. But in the Schiavo case, time is running out.

Harriet McBryde Johnson is a disability-rights lawyer in Charleston, S.C. Her memoir in stories, Too Late to Die Young: Nearly True Tales from a Life, will be released in April.

Victorious

03-24-2005, 03:29 PM

If anyone would like to see this..It's on A&E tv

http://www.aetv.com/global/listings/listings.jsp

Between Life and Death: The Terri Schiavo Story
Tune In:
Thursday, March 24 @ 8pm ET/PT

The story has grabbed the headlines, since home video of 39-year-old Terri Schiavo appeared on television. Schiavo has been in a vegetative state since suffering a heart attack in 1990, which caused brain damage. She is now the subject of a high-profile legal battle between her husband and her parents. Her husband wanted physicians to remove the feeding tube, arguing that she is brain dead. He also claimed she told him on previous occasions that she wished never to live permanently connected to any artificial life-support device. Her parents, meanwhile, said she could improve and claimed that she recognizes them and has tried to talk. This fight has galvanized the public around the very controversial issue of the "right-to-die."

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 03:42 PM

March 23, 2005
Terri Schiavo and partisan hypocrisy
By Rich Lowry

In response to the GOP-led congressional action intended to restore Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, those Democrats in opposition have attacked Republican hypocrisy in the case. Why suddenly, they ask, is the party of federalism and hostility to an overweening federal judiciary interfering in a state matter and handing the Schiavo case to a federal judge?

If it is disorienting to see Republicans scrambling for federal intervention, at least they are acting on their deepest pro-life convictions — life is to be treasured in whatever form it takes, and preserving it is a paramount value. The starkest inconsistencies are on the other side, on the part of liberals who ordinarily support the federalization of everything, but can't bear the thought of a federal judge reviewing the facts of the Schiavo case to determine whether or not she should be starved to death.

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that the facts of the Schiavo case are in dispute (and they really are) — whether she is in a persistent vegetative state, whether she can improve, whether she had previously expressed a desire to die in these circumstances. Then, let's tally the inconsistencies.

Federal habeas review.

Deathrow inmates, as a matter of course, appeal their cases in the federal courts, even after they have been in the state courts (like the Schiavo case) for years. Liberals have traditionally defended this federal habeas review, even when it drags on endlessly. In the 1990s, Republicans passed legislation signed by President Clinton limiting death-row inmates to one federal appeal. Democratic Rep. John Conyers attacked the bill as "inconsistent with our democratic system of laws."

Conyers was one of 53 House Democrats — half of all Democrats voting — to oppose giving Schiavo essentially the same right to have her case reviewed by a federal judge that he supports for convicted killers.

Civil rights.

Under the Schiavo bill, a federal judge will review whether any of her federal civil rights have been violated. Since when do Democrats oppose federal scrutiny of potential civil-rights violations?

They have consistently used the 14th Amendment to make what had previously been local matters — from voting rights to housing — the jurisdiction of the federal government on civil-rights grounds. They supported federal intervention in 2000 to investigate traffic stops on the New Jersey turnpike that allegedly violated motorists' rights. Traffic stops! But federal judicial review of whether Schiavo should live or die is out of bounds?

The disabled.

Liberals have, to their great credit, been defenders of the disabled. They passed the Americans with Disabilities Act in 1990, a sweeping federal law to prevent the disabled from, for instance, being denied access to movie theaters — a minor question, surely, compared with being denied sustenance. A principled Democrat in this regard is Sen. Tom Harkin (Iowa), an advocate for the disabled who supports taking "every precaution" in the Schiavo case.

Violence against women.

In the early 1990s, Democrats championed legislation to create federal penalties for gender-related violence. In other words, every time some abusive husband slaps his wife, it is a federal matter. But when a husband — with motivations questioned by his wife's family — wants to starve his wife, suddenly some Democrats become George Wallace-like opponents of federal power.

The death penalty.

Whenever life-related issues arise, liberals ask: How can conservatives favor preserving life when they support executing people? There's an answer for that (for another day), but the more acute question is for the other side: How can you oppose death sentences for killers, but support one, in effect, for Schiavo, whose only crime is not being capable of feeding herself?

Of course, it's possible to oppose the Schiavo bill on principled procedural grounds, maintaining that it is not the business of Congress or the federal courts. But one suspects that as soon as they are considering anything other than the fate of poor Terri Schiavo, liberals will lose their newfound suspicion of federal action.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 03:49 PM

You are beginning to sound as desperate as her parents, grasping at straws.

Well a young woman is slowly starving to death as we speak ... seems a sense of urgency is appropriate.

THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT HE ABUSED TERI!!! No police reports or ER records.

Stasticly most women do not report abuse, however I would think witholding medical treatment, rehab, food and water to be abuse.

Just let this woman pass in peace for petes sake.

I would agree however I think that slowly starving a person to death hardly qualifies. I think Norway has a more merciful approach in this.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 03:54 PM

We can't stand by and watch her starve to death
By Rabbi Aryeh Spero

Long ago Jewish law made a distinction between withholding medication and special treatments from a patient as opposed to withholding food and water. Whereas there comes a time when we are no longer required to proactively employ "heroic" medicines and treatments to keep a non-functioning body operating, it is always necessary to continue feeding a patient.

A heart, for example, that beats not on its own but only through an artificial respirator is surviving outside the pale of physiology — its maintenance is artificial. There is nothing artificial, however, in people being fed by others. Babies do not feed themselves, nor do the frail and very sick — for example, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's patients. While we do not breathe for others, we certainly feed others. It makes no difference if the person is fed from without or within, conventionally or by machine.

While medicating is a conditional decision, not so feeding. Feeding is not a medical question, it is the most basic human need whose purview is not the doctor's or judge's but inalienable. Not to feed one starving in front of you is: "Standing by While the Blood of Your Brother is Spilt."

Terri Schiavo's heart and brain are not being kept alive by a machine. She breathes on her own and her brain-stem and other strategic parts of her mind continue to function. Terri Schaivo is not an "artificial" person. "Pulling the plug" is a misnomer being used by those who want her dead and out of the picture, i.e., no longer a moral and ethical challenge.

Pulling the plug here means pulling her feeding tube so as to starve her to death; something the ACLU would never allow if this woman were a jihadist terrorist in prison on plans of blowing up American citizens.

Action by Congressman Delay and Co. (including Iowa's Steve King) has provided tremendous relief to those of us who were overcome with anguish and revulsion that an innocent woman was to be starved to death here in the United States with the official sanction of the Third Branch of Government, the Judiciary. As one distraught friend said to me today in Synagogue: "If they want to kill her, why don't they do it quickly and spare her the agony and torture of 14 days of starvation." In fact, if Terri could talk, we could never allow such a process for her screams of pain would be unbearable even to the judge who has sentenced her.

There is a much larger question here that has ramifications beyond the Terri Schiavo situation. There are those in the House, such as Rep. Henry Waxman, and liberal talk-show hosts who are irate and screaming at those wishing to keep her alive. The anger of the presiding judge can be attributed to that of ego —being challenged by elements questioning his reasoning and authority. But what is to be said of those who have no personal stake?

The apathy displayed by so many remains disheartening, but the tirades from certain liberals against those simply wishing to keep her alive so that her parents can take care of her is truly eye-opening. What pivotal liberal principle is being destroyed by the House wishing to keep this young woman alive? Their anger is roused for they behold via this case the use in our society of standards set forth by religious convictions. This case illustrates their inability — try as they may — to wipe out the animating force and decisiveness of religion in issues important to Americans.

It is Christian groups and the largest Orthodox Jewish grassroots movement, Agudath Israel, who have taken up her cause for life. Inspired by a biblical belief that starving Terri to death constitutes murder, Christian preachers and laymen —the faithful — have come to her rescue. Nothing is scarier to hard core secularists than having issues of the day be framed and won within the rubric of a universal religious standard. So as to avoid the "separation of church and state" police, the House and Senate have had to frame their plea under the more neutral phraseology of "Life, Liberty, and…"

Those on the Left claiming the House is encroaching on the concept of "local control' are disingenuous given their history of opposing local school board decisions and mandating against them from the Federal level, not to mention their unending fight against localities who vote to place nativity scenes near the public gazebo.

Those who speak of upholding the law are not believable given that there is no free-standing existing law that requires in these situations starving patients to death. We all know that this decision rests on the will of a husband who has a girlfriend he wishes to marry and who is eagerly anticipating insurance money. If understanding constitutes 9/10 of the law, everyone understands that a cruel circumstance has given guardianship over the life of a woman to a man who wants her out of his life. But secularists are willing to abjure compassion and intellectual honesty so as not to allow a victory for Christian/religious beliefs. Thus their outrage.

The procedure of death-inducing starvation is, as Rep. Delay says, "barbaric," and what appears to be the use of the system by an unloving husband to finish-off his wife a travesty and an upending of justice. It is an outcome most Americans can not stomach.

Ironically, the National Organization of Women has been silent and deaf to the distant calls of a sister under the thumb of a cold-hearted man. Evidently, it is hard for N.O.W. to wish victory to a Christian Coalition so at odds with them over abortion and who in this case echo the refrain that so grates on their psyche, namely, the sanctity of life, the right to life. Subconsciously, the intravenous feeding tube is too similar to the umbilical cord — the inviolability of the former presupposes likewise for the latter.

As for those defenders of criminals, illegal aliens and, now, terrorists — the ACLU, where are they when needed to defend the ultimate right — the right to live?

Curiously, the most silent group has been those on the Left always in the forefront demanding "lifestyle" rights. It should be obvious from their silence that when they speak of rights it really means license — society being forced to extend approbation, the concept of rights, to what really is licentiousness. Others who have lectured us for decades about the need for "compassion" have suddenly become "legalists" with hearts of stone.

What is happening at this moment under Republican leadership in the House and Senate is truly a unique American phenomenon. It is unlikely that in European countries or "sophisticated" societies the fate of this girl ever would have been allotted national importance. And that is because those countries and societies snicker at the idea of Judeo-Christian moral values occupying roles in political and national arenas. Let them snicker! Today America's leaders lifted a great burden from our conscience and made us proud, reaffirming what it means to be A Light Unto The Nations.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 04:03 PM

POLL :[i]Terri Schiavo: Do politicians really care or are they pushing their agenda?
56738 responses

Politicians really care - - 11%
Pushing their own agenda - 89%

Parties Put Aside Fights on Schiavo Case
By DAVID ESPO

WASHINGTON (AP) - ``Reid and Senate dems have been helpful thruout,'' Majority Leader Bill Frist messaged fellow Republican senators privately during pressured negotiations on legislation designed to save Terri Schiavo. The atmosphere was little different in the House, though Democratic opponents wanted extra time for debate and an on-the-record vote last weekend before allowing the final bill to pass.

The attitude marked an exception for a minority not accustomed to muting its opposition, a reflection of Schiavo's personal tragedy and the desire of many Democratic lawmakers to support the bill - or at least avoid opposing it.

The party didn't want to be on the wrong side of ``the culture of life,'' said one Democratic aide, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Add to that their hope - fanned by recent polls - that Republicans would wind up paying a political price by offending large segments of the electorate out of a desire to appeal to social conservatives. ``That's why we have just been sort of keeping our mouths shut on this,'' said one Democratic aide, explaining the strategy on condition of anonymity.

If the Republicans were prodded to action by one part of their political base, there was no countervailing pressure from organizations aligned with the Democrats. Not that they weren't hoping to gain quickly from the GOP drive to intervene, especially with polls showing as much as 70 to 80 percent of the public wanted politicians to stay out of Schiavo's family struggle.

Elliot Mincberg of People for The American Way said Thursday he hoped fallout from the Schiavo case would hamper GOP efforts to change Senate rules and speed confirmation of controversial Bush court appointees.

Speaking of Republicans who are undecided on the rules change, he said, ``When they look at the Schiavo case and look at where leadership led them and look at the fact that 70 percent of the people are against them, we'd hope they'd think two, three or four times before plunging over the cliff.''

Whatever their private qualms, Democrats offered virtually no criticism when Frist brought legislation to the floor on Thursday after two earlier bills had been blocked. Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., presumably speaking for more than himself, said, ``From my perspective it is still a mistake, and I intend to vote no if there is a roll call vote.''

By prior agreement, there was none.

Sen. Kent Conrad of North Dakota, facing a potentially difficult race in 2006, said of Schiavo, ``Her parents want to give her a chance. I think of my own daughter. We ought to give her a chance.''

Sen. Bill Nelson from Schiavo's home state, also on the ballot in 2006, noted changes made from an earlier version of the legislation. He said he supported the bill ``so that this case can be reviewed and decided in a timely manner.''

Democrats engaged in a more spirited debate in the House, arguing that Republicans were abandoning their belief in states' rights and inviting other families torn as Schiavo's relatives are to seek relief in Congress. `Separation of powers. When they wrote the Constitution they were not kidding around,'' said Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass. ``Congress deals with broad policy. Individual adjudications are made by judges, with cases of lawyers and presentations and evidence. None of that has happened here.''

Republicans at times have challenged the medical diagnosis made by court-retained physicians, who found Schiavo to be in a persistent vegetative state.

Rep. Trent Frank, R-Ariz., said Schiavo ``is awake and is able to hear, she is able to see, she is often alert.''

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas referred to her as ``lucid'' in remarks to the Family Research Council.

Frist, a heart surgeon and senator with White House ambitions, questioned the physicians' diagnosis in a Senate speech. He said he had viewed a videotape of Schiavo, read medical documents submitted to court and talked to a neurologist who had seen her.

Democratic rebuttal was indirect. ``We do not have the expertise or the facts in enough details to get into these kinds of decisions and make decisions on these kinds of cases,'' said Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida, a newcomer to Congress who first struggled with the issue while in the state legislature. The legislature is a political venue, it is not an objective venue,'' she said later in an interview. ``And it's the last place where most families would ever want a right to die case to be decided.''

EDITOR'S NOTE - David Espo is AP's chief congressional correspondent.

03/24/05 18:02

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l3&flok=FF-APO-1153&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050324%2F1803047215.htm&sc=1153

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 04:05 PM

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/toons/varvel/schiavo_varvel.jpg

kidzpca

03-24-2005, 04:08 PM

now this is a shame ....

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050323/i/r4209066064.jpg

Wed Mar 23, 1:55 PM ET

Gabriel Keys (foreground) is arrested by police officers for trespassing in Pinellas Park, Florida, March 23, 2005. The young protester attempted to take a glass of water into the Woodside Hospice for the brain-damaged Terri Schiavo. A federal judge rejected a request from the parents of Schiavo to order her feeding tube reinserted, dealing a blow to attempts by the U.S. Congress and the White House to prolong her life. REUTERS/Carlos Barria

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=1&u=/050323/ids_photos_ts/r4209066064.jpg

FYI: IF TERRI HAD BEEN GIVEN THE GLASS OF WATER SHE WOULD HAVE CHOKED. SHE CANNOT SWOLLOW. A PROVEN FACT. THE BOY WAS TRESPASSING AND GOT WHAT HE DESERVED...I EVEN HAD TO HAVE A NEIGHBOR BOY TAKEN IN BY OFFICERS FOR TRESPASSING IN MY BACK YARD WHILE I WAS GONE...IT IS POSTED NO TRESPASSING ON OUR FENCE AND WE HAVE A TRAMPOLINE SET UP FOR OUR KIDS AND GUEST USE ONLY.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 04:12 PM

What drives Terri Schiavo’s husband?
Views of Michael Schiavo vary widely amid life-or-death case
Chris O'meara -- The Associated Press
Updated: 5:59 p.m. ET March 24, 2005

CLEARWATER, Fla. - Michael Schiavo was taught early on not to back down.

His father, William, often reminded his boys that when he was diagnosed with polio at age 12, doctors said he would spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair. Six years later, he signed a minor-league contract with the old Philadelphia Athletics of the American League. “We were raised to never give up,” says Schiavo’s older brother, Scott. “To stick to your guns, and if you believe in something, you just do it.”

That, he says, is just what Michael is doing as he fights his in-laws, the state legislature, the governor, Congress and even the president to keep them from prolonging his wife’s life with a feeding tube.

Some doctors have testified that 41-year-old Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, the result of a collapse that deprived her brain of oxygen 15 years ago. Michael Schiavo insists that his wife told him she would never want to be kept alive artificially; for seven years he has fought her parents to carry out what he says would be her wish.

Regular guy or culprit?

Through much of that time, he has been vilified — on talk shows and the Internet, and in protests in front of his own home — as an abuser, an adulterer, a murderer. But to friends and family, Michael Schiavo is just a well-meaning guy caught in an extraordinary situation.

Schiavo, also 41, was the youngest of five brothers brought up in the mass-produced suburb of Levittown, Pa. They grew up in the Jubilee model — two stories, four bedrooms, two baths and an attached garage. The brothers were confirmed in the Lutheran church, though Sunday services weren’t always a priority, says Scott Schiavo, who still lives in Levittown.

Once the “runt of the litter,” Michael grew to 6-foot-7. But unlike his brothers, he had little interest in athletics; at Woodrow Wilson High School, Michael Schiavo joined the Italian Club, not the football squad. “Mike was more of a debater,” his brother says. “He was not a go-out-and-start-knocking-heads and stuff like that. ... He would rather try to discuss or argue a point.”

The early days

After high school, Michael enrolled in nearby Bucks County Community College. It was there, in a sociology class, that he met Theresa Marie Schindler. They were engaged just five months later and married in November 1984. After a year and a half, the couple moved to Florida for Terri’s work at an insurance company, and her parents followed them three months later. Michael Schiavo got work managing a restaurant.

Friends of Terri’s have said that Schiavo became possessive of his wife, tracking her movements and begrudging time she spent with her family. Terri had been overweight as a girl, and he reportedly rode her about her weight — and threatened to leave her if she got fat again.

Terri’s brother, Bobby, has said Terri was even contemplating leaving Schiavo. Scott Schiavo says he saw a happy couple.

Then everything changed

Then, in the early morning of Feb. 25, 1990, Terri Schiavo collapsed, changing everything. Initially, Michael Schiavo felt that his wife might benefit from therapy. He staged fund-raisers to pay for a flight to California for rehabilitation.

During a medical malpractice case in 1992, Schiavo testified that he was studying nursing at St. Petersburg College to better learn how to care for Terri. “I want to bring my wife home,” he told the court.

When asked how he felt about being married to Terri in her current state, he said: “I feel wonderful. She’s my life, and I wouldn’t trade her for the world. ... I believe in the vows that I took with my wife. Through sickness, in health, for richer or poorer. I married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the rest of my life with her. I’m going to do that.”

'An evil, evil man'

But by 1993, Schiavo was fighting with his in-laws, Bob and Mary Schindler, over his wife’s care and guardianship. In a deposition, the ruggedly handsome Schiavo was forced to admit that he had already been involved in lengthy relationships with two women prior to and since his wife’s collapse. One of those women, a nursing assistant at the home where Terri was being cared for, told the Schindlers’ attorneys that Schiavo would “whine all the time” about how Terri’s illness had ruined his life, and that he couldn’t wait to collect the malpractice settlement. She described Schiavo as obsessive and claimed he stalked her for more than a year after their breakup.

Trudy Capone, who worked as a nurse at a home where Terri was treated in the early 1990s, says Michael Schiavo is “an evil, evil, evil man” who repeatedly told her that he and his wife had never discussed what to do if she was incapacitated. She says he was always asking, “What should I do?”

“This man is a liar,” Capone says.

That is not the Michael Schiavo who Jill Schad knows. A fellow nurse, Schad has known Schiavo for six years and has seen him on the job and with Terri. He strokes her hair and holds her hand and kisses her, Schad says.

‘Loving husband’

“He acts like a caring person should, like a loving husband should,” says Schad. “You can just see the sorrow in his eyes ... There’s no way he could be faking it.”

Russ Hyden feels the same way. Hyden was introduced to Schiavo in 1991, when Hyden’s pregnant wife, Karen, was diagnosed with breast cancer. Despite his own travails, Hyden says Schiavo was there for him, shooting hoops with Hyden’s 7-year-old son and stopping by to make sure things were OK. When Hyden’s wife died in 1994, Schiavo arranged for the family to go to Disney World. “He is a loyal friend, a wonderful father and a wonderful person,” Hyden says.

About a decade ago, Schiavo met Jodi Centonze. They now have two toddlers, a daughter and a son, and live in a comfortable house in Clearwater surrounded by palms, live oaks and, most recently, no-trespassing signs.

Schiavo has declined requests by The Associated Press for an interview. But in a recent appearance on ABC’s “Nightline,” Schiavo insisted that his relationship with Centonze notwithstanding, he is Terri’s husband, and he’s still bound to abide by her wishes. “If I moved on with my life, and I moved on with a portion of it, but I still have a big commitment to Terri,” he said. “I made her a promise.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287950

kidzpca

03-24-2005, 04:14 PM

http://www.terrisfight.net/

I have not read all of this thread, so I don't know if anyone has already posted this, but you can watch the videos here and clearly see that Terri is NOT in a persistent vegitative state. She definitely responds to her surroundings. Yes, she is clearly severly disabled, but she is not PVS according to the legal definition in Florida..."The Florida Legislature codified a definition of PVS (Permanent Vegetative State) in this context: "a permanent and irreversible condition of unconsciousness in which there is (a) The absence of voluntary action or cognitive behavior of any kind. (b) An inability to communicate or interact purposefully with the environment."

THOUGHT YOU MIGHT LIKE TO KNOW THOSE CLIPS YOU REFER TOO ARE SEVERAL YEARS OLD AND DO NOT PERTAIN TO WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON RECENTLY.

ALSO TONIGHT A MEDICAL NEUROLOGIST SAID ON CBS NEWS THAT 99% OF PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE SPOT TERRI WAS IN FIFTEEN (15) YEARS AGO WHEN THIS ALL BEGAN, IF NO IMPROVEMENT IN 3 MONTHS THAT 98% OF LIKE PATIENTS DO NOT RECOVER. EVER. EVER. EVER.

jedmatters

03-24-2005, 04:16 PM

Stasticly most women do not report abuse, however I would think witholding medical treatment, rehab, food and water to be abuse.

No one knows how many women do not report abuse, since it is not reported! It is at best a guess!

But since there are no records of abuse with them, other than her parents stating it 8 years later, there is no reason to even bring abuse into the fray.

Is she lieing in the street? No, she is in a hospice (which means he allows medical treatment), she had a feeding tube (which means no actual food or water for 15 years) and there is no rehab for liquified brain stem.
And, no standing up for the wishes of your spouse is not abuse, it is honoring them!

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 04:17 PM

FYI: IF TERRI HAD BEEN GIVEN THE GLASS OF WATER SHE WOULD HAVE CHOKED. SHE CANNOT SWOLLOW. A PROVEN FACT. THE BOY WAS TRESPASSING AND GOT WHAT HE DESERVED...I EVEN HAD TO HAVE A NEIGHBOR BOY TAKEN IN BY OFFICERS FOR TRESPASSING IN MY BACK YARD WHILE I WAS GONE...IT IS POSTED NO TRESPASSING ON OUR FENCE AND WE HAVE A TRAMPOLINE SET UP FOR OUR KIDS AND GUEST USE ONLY. SO THERE.

Try reading post 298 - clearly you did not before making this post.

BTW -- "SO THERE" ?? :confused: what -- are we in grade school now ??

janelle

03-24-2005, 04:24 PM

She's not dead yet but she will be when they get through with her.

Jolie---wait until they stick their tongue out and you can put paint on it---an old Three Stooges ploy. :D :D

kidzpca

03-24-2005, 04:40 PM

Great post kidzpca.
Bless this families hearts, my heart goes out to them.

ty YankeeMary..."Little Jerry" is a person whom I took care of several times from the age of 10 to 19 years whenever he was hospitalized. And it was usually 4-6 times a year with long 3-4 week stays everytime. My heart goes out to his family and himself...but a very unselfish act to "let him go".

kidzpca

03-24-2005, 04:43 PM

For those of you who may have missed what Yankee Mary is refering too.

Family facing dilemma like Terri Schiavo's makes an agonizing decision
Wednesday, March 23, 2005

"Little Jerry" has come home for the last time.

Bedridden and virtually unresponsive for half of his 20 years, Gerold Marcinkowski III is fighting the latest in a series of infections that has put him at the edge of death several times since an automobile accident when he was 4.

That accident, which caused a closed head injury, set off a series of events that led to a slow decline and multiple hospitalizations, including the latest hospitalization earlier this month. Jerry was brought home about a week ago.

While the Oshtemo Township resident remains connected to a feeding tube, oxygen and a morphine pump, his parents, Gerold and Lori Marcinkowski, now have accepted the advice from medical professionals -- and their own consciences -- not to use any more extreme measures to prolong their son's life.

They said they will no longer use antibiotics that have helped him through previous infections and will not resuscitate him if his situation worsens.

"We are at the point where we have decided to stop being selfish and let him go," Lori Marcinkowski said Tuesday morning. "It is a very, very hard decision.

"As parents, we never want to see a child go first. But when we knew that it was time to make a final decision, we asked family and friends and they all agreed," she said.

"Does he have any quality of life? No, he doesn't. Is it more humane to keep pumping in the antibiotics or to let him go? Let him go," she said.

"We love him," Gerold Marcinkowski said.

The Marcinkowskis say they decided to talk about their decision after watching the news about Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state longer than their son.

"We are hoping that if we tell our story, maybe they could read about it or that we can help other people in a similar situation," Lori Marcinkowski said.

"I can understand how Terri's parents feel. No parent wants to bury a child. But I can also understand how her husband feels. ... He sees the suffering and the pain that she feels."

As the Marcinkowskis talk, Jerry's eyes are open and move side to side or upward, never focusing. A machine records his heart rate at nearly 150 beats a minute. There is no movement other than his eyes and chest as he breathes.

Born deaf on June 7, 1984, Little Jerry, as his family calls him, was learning to sign and communicate just before the accident caused the closed-head injury that prompted a four-hour brain surgery, seizures and a year of intensive rehabilitation.

Lori Marcinkowski said that her son slowly regained some function and was attending Croyden Avenue School for children who need special education when he got sick and lost all the gains he had made.

Once again, Jerry underwent rehabilitation and made gains until he got severe pneumonia at about age 9, she said.

His life since then has been a tale of paralysis, hospitalizations, antibiotics to fight infections and an almost complete lack of responsiveness.

"We don't know if he knows us as his parents," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "We sense that he knows us as a constant in his life. We're the ones who bathe him, change his diaper, clip his nails."

Neither parent is able to work because it takes both of them to provide care 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Jerry's medical bills are paid primarily by Medicaid and Michigan Children's Special Health Care Services, formerly called Crippled Children.

The Marcinkowskis' share is about $5,000 a year, Gerold Marcinkowski said.

"We never saw Jerry as a burden on us," Lori Marcinkowski said. "We saw it more as a burden on his sisters. We couldn't do family things, and both of us couldn't attend school events at the same time."

Little Jerry's siblings are Elise, 22, Mary, 21, and Julie, 20.

"He has not been a burden to us at all," said Mary Marcinkowski, who lives at home and attends school. "The burden has been his."

The Marcinkowskis say they have taken that final step to ease that burden.

"We've pulled our hair out over this," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "But we can't see him suffer anymore. We pray and hope he goes in his sleep."

kidzpca

03-24-2005, 04:45 PM

Try reading post 298 - clearly you did not before making this post.

BTW -- "SO THERE" ?? :confused: what -- are we in grade school now ??

Yes Jolie Rouge I'm wrong...I take back the "SO THERE" comment.

And yes the kid whom trespassed on my property got what he deserved too. I was looking after his "safety".

woleys

03-24-2005, 08:01 PM

COMMENTARY: By Joe Scarborough

As you may know, I have spent the last week on my TV and radio show fighting to save the life of Terri Schiavo. Like many opinion givers, lawmakers, and American citizens, I am shocked and saddened by the forced starvation of a young, helpless woman who is being sentence to death simply because she cannot feed herself. Applying this standard, infants, Alzheimers patients, the elderly and infirmed would face a court ordered death.

If we are to judge our society (as Hubert Humphrey once suggested) by how we protect the weakest among us, America is in trouble.

So where does my confession come in? Well, here goes. Until late last week, I didn't want to talk about Terri Shiavo. It was too depressing a spectacle, too ugly a fight. I wanted to turn my eyes away from this beautiful young woman who turned into a helpless, bed-ridden soul. As beautiful to her mother and father as she was on her 16th birthday, the Terri Shiavo of 2005 was just too painful to watch.

I suspect I was not alone. I have noted over the past several days a growing outrage for a judicial system that would allow a mother's daughter to starve to death in the most plentiful country on earth.

This morning on my radio show, I had planned to talk about the Patriot Act and a host of other issues.

But Portland called, and they wanted to talk about Terri.

Atlanta? Terri.

Orlando? Terri.

Washington DC? Terri.

Iowa...of course...Terri.

Three days ago, few Americans cared. But that is no longer the case. We are all wide awake in America, and we are no longer afraid to look into the eyes of Terri Schiavo.

And like her parents, we see a beautiful young woman made in the image of God.

A God who will not bless this or any nation that kills its weakest and most vulnerable citizens.

May God forgive us all.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6845031/#050323a

ITA with everything he just said.........this is a very sad story. The woman is alive and not having any help breathing......its not like she is just laying there and they are pulling the plug on her because she is completly brain dead and there is no hope she will ever wake up.....they are starving her to death. She isn't brain dead......if she was she wouldnot be able to follow objects and smile at people she knows and last night I saw Pat Boone talking about her and he said that when people ask her questions she makes noises likes she trying to answer them. She even smiles when she sees her parents. I truly believe she knows who they are. It just breaks my heart. How can anyone find it in their hearts to think this is the right thing to do?? I just don't understand it. I know a family who has a baby that has a feeding tube right now and I don't see anyone wanting to take its feeding tube out and just starve it to death even though the baby has some major heart problems and a few other things wrong with her and her parents knows she is not going to make it......they are still enjoy what time God gives them with her. I think that Terri's parents should also have that time with their daughter.

Linus1223

03-24-2005, 08:03 PM

This is taken from the other thread in Vent & Whine, curtosey of debbyfaye:

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Michael Schiavo, on Theresa's and his own behalf, initiated a medical malpractice lawsuit against the obstetrician who had been overseeing Theresa's fertility therapy. In 1993, the malpractice action concluded in Theresa and Michael's favor, resulting in a two element award: More than $750,000 in economic damages for Theresa, and a loss of consortium award (non economic damages) of $300,000 to Michael. The court established a trust fund for Theresa's financial award, with SouthTrust Bank as the Guardian and an independent trustee. This fund was meticulously managed and accounted for and Michael Schiavo had no control over its use. There is no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa's estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained......

Proceedings concluded that there was no basis for the removal of Michael as Guardian Further, it was determined that he had been very aggressive and attentive in his care of Theresa. His demanding concern for her well being and meticulous care by the nursing home earned him the characterization by the administrator as "a nursing home administrator's nightmare". It is notable that through more than thirteen years after Theresa's collapse, she has never had a bedsore....

Michael's decision not to treat was based upon discussions and consultation with Theresa's doctor, and was predicated on his reasoned belief that there was no longer any hope for Theresa's recovery. It had taken Michael more than three years to accommodate this reality and he was beginning to accept the idea of allowing Theresa to die naturally rather than remain in the non-cognitive, vegetative state. It took Michael a long time to consider the prospect of getting on with his life – something he was actively encouraged to do by the Schindlers,long before enmity tore them apart. He was even encouraged by the Schindlers to date, and introduced his in-law family to women he was dating. But this was just prior to the malpractice case ending.....

Testimony provided by members of the Schindler family included very personal statements about their desire and intention to ensure that Theresa remain alive. Throughout the course of the litigation, deposition and trial testimony by members of the Schindler family voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Nearly gruesome examples were given, eliciting agreement by family members that in the event Theresa should contract diabetes and subsequent gangrene in each of her limbs, they would agree to amputate each limb, and would then, were she to be diagnosed with heart disease, perform open heart surgery. There was additional, difficult testimony that appeared to establish that despite the sad and undesirable condition of Theresa, the parents still derived joy from having her alive, even if Theresa might not be at all aware of her environment given the persistent vegetative state. Within the testimony, as part of the hypotheticals presented, Schindler family members stated that even if Theresa had told them of her intention to have artificial nutrition withdrawn, they would not do it. Throughout this painful and difficult trial, the family acknowledged that Theresa was in a diagnosed persistent vegetative state.

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

Linus1223

03-24-2005, 08:11 PM

87 people including medical professions who actually cared for Terri ( as oppossed to those being paid by M. to reach a rather biased opinion )

versus

one person - who is set to inheirit the funds that were to pay for his wife's care - care he has denied - while he has created a new family for himself and still played the martyed "husband" any time a camerea or mic is available.

I think I will go with the parents, siblings, doctors, nurses, friends and aquaintances who are not to profit from this woman's death.

See my above post...People can have opinions that are different than yours, you know...

woleys

03-24-2005, 08:18 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 08:23 PM

Yes Jolie Rouge I'm wrong...I take back the "SO THERE" comment.

And yes the kid whom trespassed on my property got what he deserved too. I was looking after his "safety".

You were - and if the child had been injuried despite the fact he should not have been on your property at all his parents would have probably ried to sue. :confused:

A child should not have been put up to bring Terri water - after they have already arrested at least 12 people - it was done as a publicty stunt and his parents ( or whomever had the *brillant* idea) should be ashamed of themselves.

Terri was able to swallow in 1993 but after years of being strictly tube-fed her throat muscles will have attrophied. With intensive therapy, she *might* be able to regain what she has lost, but it is doubtful M. would ever allow the opputunity. Anyone giving her water NOW would cause her to choke or aspirate the fluid into her lungs which might kill her outright or simply increase her misery by causing complications.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 08:43 PM

See my above post...People can have opinions that are different than yours, you know...

There are opinions and there are facts ....

.. in 1991 Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center where her condition is assessed as improving; Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue her recovery instead he moves Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home. ( Nursing Homes are not known for their Rehab facilities. )

In November 1992 Terri is awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement to pay for her medical care and then in a seperate filing she is awarded $1.4 million in a malpractice trial. Further Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial for his pain & suffering and for "loss of consortium"

In Febuary of 1993 Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment and Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri. Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents in part because Schiavo posts "Do Not Resuscitate" order in Terri's medical chart which leads to Schiavo threatening the Schindler family with lawsuit due to their protests.

In August 1993 Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection (UT - can be quite painful ... appearently not an issue for M ) So Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian as it seems he doesn't have their daughter's best interests at heart. In the course of the case Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

In Febuary 1994 Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit. And in April Terri is returned to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

In September of 1995 Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection. Unfortunately for him, Terri recovers.

In May of 1997 Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration claiming that Terri is suffering PVS despite testimony from the several RN's to the contrary. Coinciendaly in July Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced; they already have one child together. But it takes until August for Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

It took slightly over TWO years for M to order DNR added to her charts and denial of therapy even going against recomended Rehab facilities to place her in a nursing home instead. Then he refused Terri medical treeatment for an infection - fully aware by his own testimony - that it could have resulted in her death. His "desperate search for help" ended as soon as the courts awarded Terri a large cash settlement for her care - care that he then refused to authorise.

Does this sound like the actions of someone who "loves" his wife or does he merely view her as a possession ?

Interesting how you only quoted half of what I said .....

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 08:58 PM

Judge Greer is not the only judge to hear the case. TWENTY SEVEN judges have heard the case and not a single one of them think that Terri's parents' case has any merit or credibility.

Ignore evidence, refuse to accept testimony, forbid tests which would have proved or disproved M's position ... Heck of a way to run an "objective" Court.

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.

1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.

1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.

2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .

2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greerapproved payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.

YankeeMary

03-24-2005, 09:10 PM

Where did these "facts" come from? Seems there is so many different sets of "facts" to actually know which are "fact" and which aren't.

Jolie Rouge

03-24-2005, 09:17 PM

Where did these "facts" come from? Seems there is so many different sets of "facts" to actually know which are "fact" and which aren't.

r - e - s - e - a - r - c - h

nightrider127

03-25-2005, 04:20 AM

Try reading post 298 - clearly you did not before making this post.

BTW -- "SO THERE" ?? :confused: what -- are we in grade school now ??

And just tell me why you didn't post all about that boy being put up to doing that in your original post? Anyone could tell that he was a young child. Maybe it was contained in the link you supplied. Not all of us have time to chase down links.

Still he should have known better than to do something like that. Would he go jump off a bridge if his parents told him to? I think not.

jedmatters

03-25-2005, 04:31 AM

Jolie, I can research, too. And all the facts I put will support my side.
Nothing will dispute the fact that the law states Michael is her decision maker.

The research people have on Terri's medical conditions spook me. Medical records for her are 10,000 pages long. People are just picking out the facts they want, not the entire records (which by the way are private)

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 04:41 AM

r - e - s - e - a - r - c - h
Your rudness for some reason always surprises me.
So lets take this one step at a time ...

While researching you decide which site to take info from,
What would the name of that site be?
Could you possibly share the name of the site?

I do believe you are the one (if you weren't accept my apology) that asked another poster if we were in still in school. I truly think you believe that by your response to my question. Your assumption that I was so dumb that I couldn't read the word properly was not only childish and rude, by mostly uncalled for.

I was just curious as to where the stats were from (IE:a news site, One of Teri's blogs) being the neg. stats all seem to blame Micheal.

This entire thread is mostly about one woman, a brainless stranger no less, and you are willing to be not so nice to others here that don't agree with you and you kinda "know" us. It is very unsettling.

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 04:51 AM

In regards to the little boy that was taking water into Teri, his parents as well shoul be arrested. He violated a court order, which is illegal as well given Teri's present condition I agree it could also be considered attempted murder. I would bet my last dollar that the parents said "here take this in there, you won't get in trouble you are just a kid." SHOCK! IMO they are horrible parents to even consider having a child there let alone involving him in this "adult game".
I have a 12 year older and he would never have done that. Teri is a huge talk in the schools here and both of my children feel very sorry for her and my oldest told me last night, that if something were to happen to him, to only keep him on machines for 2 weeks (LOL) funny because I still have no clue as to why he choose 2 weeks. I am sure that opinions and views on this case have influenced them to a degree on whether they agree with the removal of the feeding tube. My oldest did say that the majority of his class felt sorry for Teri since has to die this way, but all of them agreed that its time to let go. He said all of them (especially) the girls were very upset that they would actually show pictures of her on the TV (we all know that teenage girls are vain..lol, but it actually horrifies me to think they would show those tapes etc on national television.)

FetishKtn

03-25-2005, 05:02 AM

YankeeMary, I just have one thing to say...

I LOVE you! :D I'd offer to have your babies, but umm.. got fixed a while back, I'm sure you understand.

nightrider127

03-25-2005, 05:07 AM

Thank you YankeeMary. Very well said.

Now would anyone like to discuss that LPN who claimed she heard the husband say all that he was supposed to have said?

Willow

03-25-2005, 06:08 AM

r - e - s - e - a - r - c - h

Must you be so arrogant all the time.

Willow

03-25-2005, 06:10 AM

BTW -- "SO THERE" ?? :confused: what -- are we in grade school now ??

That's exactly how you act when someone doesn't agree with you.

Linus1223

03-25-2005, 06:45 AM

Interesting how you only quoted half of what I said .....

That's because HALF of it was addressed to someone else.

Linus1223

03-25-2005, 06:51 AM

Ignore evidence, refuse to accept testimony, forbid tests which would have proved or disproved M's position ... Heck of a way to run an "objective" Court....

Sorry, I do not and cannot believe something that is placed in front me. What is the source for this?

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 07:07 AM

Ignore evidence, refuse to accept testimony, forbid tests which would have proved or disproved M's position ... Heck of a way to run an "objective" Court.

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.

1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.

1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.

2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .

2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greerapproved payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.
Yeah where do you get all this?

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 07:09 AM

r - e - s - e - a - r - c - h
Research from what site, what book, what paper?

schsa

03-25-2005, 07:09 AM

The Supreme Court won't hear the case. Congress and the Senate are not going to step in and if Jeb Bush does he is going against a court decision. And it could add or ruin his political future desires to be President.

Terri is going to die this time because no one wants to take the responsibility of making the decision. The case has become too public. And people do have strong feelings one way or the other.

I feel sorry for everyone involved. Regardless of what decision is made, someone is going to be blamed.

Willow

03-25-2005, 07:14 AM

Research from what site, what book, what paper?

It was probably from some blog or news website. If any of us wanted to we could go and find at least 10 articles contradicting it.

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 07:14 AM

I've decided to declare "shenanigans" on this thread. (I'll go get my broom!)

Shenanigans!!

(It's a South Park joke for "We've been duped!" LOL!)

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 07:26 AM

dangerousfem

03-25-2005, 07:51 AM

Must you be so arrogant all the time.

This thread has lasted a long time.. due to the fact that we state our opinions.. offer counter arguments..

We Don't Name Call...

lets keep it that way please... so this thread doesn't get locked.

Willow

03-25-2005, 07:56 AM

This thread has lasted a long time.. due to the fact that we state our opinions.. offer counter arguments..

We Don't Name Call...

lets keep it that way please... so this thread doesn't get locked.

Why is it okay for Jolie to be rude? I know for a fact I am not the only one who feels this way. There are countless others but only a few of us will speak up. I can understand why some people don't say anything but enough is enough.

Linus1223

03-25-2005, 07:59 AM

Research from what site, what book, what paper?
Hmmm...After doing my own research it looks like it's from terrisfight.org

About the Foundation

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Foundation is a group of volunteers who are dedicated to protecting the life and liberty of a disabled woman.

The Goals of the Foundation

To aid Terri and her immediate family by providing the resources they need to protect Terri from a court-ordered dehydration and starvation death.

As I've said before, I will take what this website says with a grain of salt...I would prefer a more unbiased news source, myself.

http://terrisfight.org/timeline.html

dangerousfem

03-25-2005, 08:02 AM

I'm not talking about rudness.. that is in how each person reads a post..some take it as rudness.. some don't.. I am simply talking about name calling.. I have enjoyed the debate in this thread.. and the mods will lock it if there is name calling.. you could have simply said "that was rude".. but instead you called her a name..

thats all I'm saying.. just don't want the thread locked. :)

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 08:22 AM

http://www.msnbc.com/comics/editorial/jd050324.gif

janelle

03-25-2005, 10:52 AM

YNKYH8R

03-25-2005, 11:29 AM

Yeah, Jolie reliable. :D

But then again someone did post something earlier about the money.

jedmatters

03-25-2005, 12:47 PM

Strangely enough, not everything revolves around money! People actually think about loved ones instead of money.

Horrid thought, for some. The actual caring ability that does not have a dollar sign on it. I personally think the money issue is moot.
Her wishes are the concern, and courts have ruled that HER wishes were to not live like this. The courts have openly said they are not following her parents' wishes or her husband's wishes, but the wishes that Terri would have.

KarlaJorge

03-25-2005, 01:18 PM

Yeah where do you get all this?

The information is there if you want to get it. Where do you get yours that you post, it's the same thing. But you just post what goes with your opinion..

The facts and the information is there if you want to research it. And I will keep saying the same again and again, this man, Michael SCHIAVO is not an HONORABLE MAN, a lot of the facts and information tells us that.

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 02:42 PM

The information is there if you want to get it. Where do you get yours that you post, it's the same thing. But you just post what goes with your opinion..

The facts and the information is there if you want to research it. And I will keep saying the same again and again, this man, Michael SCHIAVO is not an HONORABLE MAN, a lot of the facts and information tells us that.
So what you are saying is since Micheal wants to honor Teri's wishes and allow her to die, he is not an honorable man, since you disagree with him. So since I disagree with her parents does that make them unhonorable?

woleys

03-25-2005, 06:07 PM

The information is there if you want to get it. Where do you get yours that you post, it's the same thing. But you just post what goes with your opinion..

The facts and the information is there if you want to research it. And I will keep saying the same again and again, this man, Michael SCHIAVO is not an HONORABLE MAN, a lot of the facts and information tells us that.

ITA.......Everyone keeps saying its Terri wish........but no one knows that for sure.....so everyone is just stating something M said. who else heard Terri say that was her wish?? I bet that Terri's wish would not have to been starved to death. This is cruel and very wrong (IMO) I don't see how any christian could even think it is right. Again this is my opinion.

Cessie

03-25-2005, 06:23 PM

so everyone is just stating something M said. who else heard Terri say that was her wish??

Terri's best friend, her brother-in-law and her uncle all testified to having heard her say it also on different occasions.

Instead of reading all the "culture of life" websites read the court transcripts. Quite a different picture.

KarlaJorge

03-25-2005, 06:27 PM

So what you are saying is since Micheal wants to honor Teri's wishes and allow her to die, he is not an honorable man, since you disagree with him. So since I disagree with her parents does that make them unhonorable?

Not honorable becuase there are many negative things appointed towards him and his ways. Not honorable becasue he is pushing towards letting a person die in this way. Not honorable because he did a lot of things so some say, and could be true, that were not in her best interest. Not honorable becuase there is no way to prove or demonstrate this as her will, just by his mouth, after so many years, he came to say this very late, why didn't he say this earlier and not 7 or 8 years later, suspicious. Not honorable because he chose to have other partners and girlfriends even children with one, still being married to Terri, how can anybody say he is honorable for that??!! :(

Her parents cannot be considered unhonorable, becuase they are pushing towards life, not matter what, their side is more postive, they are defending the life of their daughter.

Even if Michael is her husband, guardian, whatever, that does not mean his intentions are the best, and true. There are a lot of evil people in this world and he wouldn't be the first one or even the last one husband or wife that does not care one bit of their spouse and just think about themselves in a selfish way. We all know that.

By saying this I am not saying that this is the exact case, but theere are facts that make it possible to be that way. What really makes me so mad is why the judge refused to hear so many evidences and rejected so many things during the hearings. So why do we have to hear one side of the story and not the other, why do we have to believe one witness and reject even hearing the other one??

janelle

03-25-2005, 07:23 PM

Terri's best friend, her brother-in-law and her uncle all testified to having heard her say it also on different occasions.

Instead of reading all the "culture of life" websites read the court transcripts. Quite a different picture.

Doesn't matter what she said or if she had a living will. Read my post on living wills. Relatives can protest them and take it to court.

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 07:35 PM

ITA.......Everyone keeps saying its Terri wish........but no one knows that for sure.....so everyone is just stating something M said. who else heard Terri say that was her wish?? I bet that Terri's wish would not have to been starved to death. This is cruel and very wrong (IMO) I don't see how any christian could even think it is right. Again this is my opinion.
I am a Christian and I say allowing her body to finally die is the best thing for her. JESUS SAID...YOU(Meaning all of us) ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD!!! But they are making Teri apart of it.

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 07:42 PM

By saying this I am not saying that this is the exact case, but theere are facts that make it possible to be that way. What really makes me so mad is why the judge refused to hear so many evidences and rejected so many things during the hearings. So why do we have to hear one side of the story and not the other, why do we have to believe one witness and reject even hearing the other one??
It should have never even been placed in court. The law is already there and it gives Micheal the "right" to decide, regardless of what anyone thinks about it. Thats just the bottom line. If my DH would sit around and watch me live the way Teri has for the past 16 years, I would be so mad and ashamed of him.

kidzpca

03-25-2005, 07:44 PM

Earlier on Fox News it was said that the latest claim the Parents' state is the Terri said last friday, "I want to live" as they removed the feeding tube. With Mom, Dad, Their Lawyer, Brother, Uncle and Doctor present. Why bring it out 7 days later?

I lost believing her Parents, brother and sister with this claim and the statement made by thier lawyer earlier this week that if the courts let Terri die "She is going to H.E.L.L."

YankeeMary

03-25-2005, 07:51 PM

Earlier on Fox News it was said that the latest claim the Parents' state is the Terri said last friday, "I want to live" as they removed the feeding tube. With Mom, Dad, Their Lawyer, Brother, Uncle and Doctor present. Why bring it out 7 days later?

I lost believing her Parents, brother and sister with this claim and the statement made by thier lawyer earlier this week that if the courts let Terri die "She is going to H.E.L.L."
IMO and I am really trying not to judge, but I believe with all my heart that her soul has been gone for 15 years and God willing she is in HEAVEN. I can never ever imagine claiming someone will go to hell. My Bible states thou shall not judge.

onfire4god57

03-25-2005, 08:40 PM

ITA.......Everyone keeps saying its Terri wish........but no one knows that for sure.....so everyone is just stating something M said. who else heard Terri say that was her wish?? I bet that Terri's wish would not have to been starved to death. This is cruel and very wrong (IMO) I don't see how any christian could even think it is right. Again this is my opinion.

I am a Christian and I think that prolonging Terri's life is wrong.

Let me ask you this, do you being a christian believe in the death penalty?

onfire4god57

03-25-2005, 08:50 PM

Earlier on Fox News it was said that the latest claim the Parents' state is the Terri said last friday, "I want to live" as they removed the feeding tube. With Mom, Dad, Their Lawyer, Brother, Uncle and Doctor present. Why bring it out 7 days later?

I lost believing her Parents, brother and sister with this claim and the statement made by thier lawyer earlier this week that if the courts let Terri die "She is going to H.E.L.L."

My sister and brother in law are both very devout catholics, so I asked them why would they think that she would go to H.E.L.L. if the courts let Terri die? And I ask this because in my christian beliefs, unless she committed suicide then she would not have caused her own death. Their answer to this was that they felt that if she was an anorixic and brought this problem upon herself then that would make her responsible for her own death due to her own actions. And if that is the case then the Schindlers who say they are such devout catholics and so is (was) Terri, then they truly believe she caused this upon herself. Maybe just another way of looking at why they are so determined for her to live. Maybe they think because of the condition she has been in all these years that she has never been able to go to confession for forgiveness?

This is just my opinion, but it is something to think about.

cleaningla

03-25-2005, 08:54 PM

My sister and brother in law are both very devout catholics, so I asked them why would they think that she would go to H.E.L.L. if the courts let Terri die? And I ask this because in my christian beliefs, unless she committed suicide then she would not have caused her own death. Their answer to this was that they felt that if she was an anorixic and brought this problem upon herself then that would make her responsible for her own death due to her own actions. And if that is the case then the Schindlers who say they are such devout catholics and so is (was) Terri, then they truly believe she caused this upon herself. Maybe just another way of looking at why they are so determined for her to live. Maybe they think because of the condition she has been in all these years that she has never been able to go to confession for forgiveness?

This is just my opinion, but it is something to think about.

I think that by saying kill me if I get to the point where I can't kill myself, that is suicide.

kidzpca

03-25-2005, 08:55 PM

My sister and brother in law are both very devout catholics, so I asked them why would they think that she would go to H.E.L.L. if the courts let Terri die? And I ask this because in my christian beliefs, unless she committed suicide then she would not have caused her own death. Their answer to this was that they felt that if she was an anorixic and brought this problem upon herself then that would make her responsible for her own death due to her own actions. And if that is the case then the Schindlers who say they are such devout catholics and so is (was) Terri, then they truly believe she caused this upon herself. Maybe just another way of looking at why they are so determined for her to live. Maybe they think because of the condition she has been in all these years that she has never been able to go to confession for forgiveness?

This is just my opinion, but it is something to think about.

makes complete sense...my ex-wife's parents' were just like you stated. Seems like a small piece of this complex puzzle.

onfire4god57

03-25-2005, 09:11 PM

I think that by saying kill me if I get to the point where I can't kill myself, that is suicide.

If a person chooses not to have someone use extrordinary measures on them such as ventelators, and feeding tubes, I don't consider this as telling someone to "kill" me, it simply means that they would like to die peacefully and naturally.

janelle

03-25-2005, 10:08 PM

My sister and brother in law are both very devout catholics, so I asked them why would they think that she would go to H.E.L.L. if the courts let Terri die? And I ask this because in my christian beliefs, unless she committed suicide then she would not have caused her own death. Their answer to this was that they felt that if she was an anorixic and brought this problem upon herself then that would make her responsible for her own death due to her own actions. And if that is the case then the Schindlers who say they are such devout catholics and so is (was) Terri, then they truly believe she caused this upon herself. Maybe just another way of looking at why they are so determined for her to live. Maybe they think because of the condition she has been in all these years that she has never been able to go to confession for forgiveness?

This is just my opinion, but it is something to think about.

Geesh how silly. People in the grips of a mental disease are not in control of whether they want to live or die. And she is certainly not commiting suicide right now, she is being put to death. That is something the courts and her husband should worry about when they die.

Kyla Kym

03-26-2005, 03:33 AM

Earlier on Fox News it was said that the latest claim the Parents' state is the Terri said last friday, "I want to live" as they removed the feeding tube. With Mom, Dad, Their Lawyer, Brother, Uncle and Doctor present. Why bring it out 7 days later?

It was actually more like 4 days later, but still it makes you wonder why they waited.

DECLARATION OF BARBARA J. WELLER

STATE OF FLORIDA )

COUNTY OF PINELLAS )

I, BARBARA WELLER, Attorney for Respondents in the above-styled case, hereby declare under penalty of perjury:

I visited with Terri at various times during the day on March 18, 2005, the day her feeding tube was removed.

During the morning I was in the room with Terri and various members of her family. Terri was in good spirits that morning. The mood in her room was jovial, particularly around noontime, as we knew Congressional attorneys were on the scene and many were working hard to save Terri's life. For most of that time, I was visiting and talking with Terri along with Terri's sister Suzanne Vitadamo, Suzanne's husband, and Terri's aunt, who was visiting from New York to help provide support for the family. A female Pinellas Park police office was stationed at the door outside Terri's room.

Terri was sitting up in her lounge chair, dressed and looking alert and well. Her feeding tube had been plugged in around 11 a.m. and we all felt good that she was still being fed. Suzanne and I were talking, joking, and laughing with Terri, telling her she was going to go to Washington D.C. to testify before Congress, which meant that finally Terri's husband Michael would be required to fix her wheelchair. After that Suzanne could take Terri to the mall shopping and could wheel her outdoors every day to feel the wind and sunshine on her face, something she has not been able to do for more than five years.

At one point, I noticed Terri's window blinds were pulled down. I went to the window to raise them so Terri could look at the beautiful garden outside her window and see the sun after several days of rain. As sunlight came into the room, Terri's eyes widened and she was obviously very pleased.

Suzanne and I continued to talk and joke with Terri for probably an hour or more. At one point Suzanne called Terri the bionic woman and I heard Terri laugh out loud heartily. She laughed so hard that for the first time I noticed the dimples in her cheeks.

The most dramatic event of this visit happened at one point when I was sitting on Terri's bed next to Suzanne. Terri was sitting in her lounge chair and her aunt was standing at the foot of the chair. I stood up and learned over Terri. I took her arms in both of my hands. I said to her, "Terri if you could only say ‘I want to live' this whole thing could be over today." I begged her to try very hard to say, "I want to live." To my enormous shock and surprise, Terri's eyes opened wide, she looked me square in the face, and with a look of great concentration, she said, "Ahhhhhhh." Then, seeming to summon up all the strength she had, she virtually screamed, "Waaaaaaaa." She yelled so loudly that Michael Vitadamo, Suzanne's husband, and the female police officer who were then standing together outside Terri's door, clearly heard her. At that point, Terri had a look of anguish on her face that I had never seen before and she seemed to be struggling hard, but was unable to complete the sentence. She became very frustrated and began to cry. I was horrified that I was obviously causing Terri so much anguish. Suzanne and I began to stroke Terri's face and hair to comfort her. I told Terri I was very sorry. It had not been my intention to upset her so much. Suzanne and I assured Terri that her efforts were much appreciated and that she did not need to try to say anything more. I promised Terri I would tell the world that she had tried to say, "I want to live."

Suzanne and I continued to visit and talk with Terri, along with other family members who came and went in the room, until about 2:00 p.m. when we were all told to leave after Judge Greer denied yet another motion for stay and ordered the removal of the feeding tube to proceed. As we left the room, the female police officer outside the door was valiantly attempting to keep from crying.

About four in the afternoon, several hours after the feeding tube was removed, I returned to Terri's room. By that time she was alone except for a male police officer now standing inside the door. When I entered the room and began to speak to her, Terri started to cry and tried to speak to me immediately. It was one of the most helpless feelings I have ever had. Terri was looking very melancholy at that point and I had the sense she was very upset that we had told her things were going to get better, but instead, they were obviously getting worse. I had previously had the same feeling when my own daughter was a baby who was hospitalized and was crying and looking to me to rescue her from her hospital crib, something I could not do. While I was in the room with Terri for the next half hour or so, several other friends came to visit and I did a few press interviews sitting right next to Terri. I again raised her window shade, which had again been pulled down, so Terri could at least see the garden and the sunshine from her lounge chair. I also turned the radio on in her room before I left so that when she was alone, she would at least have some music for comfort.

Just before I left the room, I leaned over Terri and spoke right into her ear. I told her I was very sorry I had not been able to stop the feeding tube from being taken out and I was very sorry I had to leave her alone. But I reminded her that Jesus would stay right by her side even when no one else was there with her. When I mentioned Jesus' Name, Terri again laughed out loud. She became very agitated and began loudly trying to speak to me again. As Terri continued to laugh and try to speak, I quietly prayed in her ear, kissed her, placed her in Jesus' care, and left the room.

FURTHER YOUR DECLARANT SAYETH NOT.

I hereby declare, under penalty of perjury, that the foregoing is true and accurate to the best of my knowledge and belief. Executed this 22nd day of March, 2005, at Seminole, Florida.

BARBARA J. WELLER

Sworn to and subscribed before me this 25th day of March, 2005.

Willow

03-26-2005, 04:48 AM

The woman is brain dead. How would she be able to speak those words? The parents are just getting desperate.

Crick

03-26-2005, 06:25 AM

Schiavo case tests GOP alliances, priorities

Public reaction to federal intervention surprises many lawmakersANALYSIS
By Shailagh Murray and Mike Allen

Updated: 11:43 p.m. ET March 25, 2005WASHINGTON - A week after their unprecedented intervention in the Terri Schiavo case, Republican congressional leaders find themselves in a moral and political thicket, having advanced the cause as a right-to-life issue — only to confront polls showing that the public does not see it that way.

"How deep is this Congress going to reach into the personal lives of each and every one of us?" asked Rep. Christopher Shays (Conn.), one of only five Republicans in the House to vote against the Schiavo bill.

Fractured alliances
Republican lawmakers and others engaged in the debate say an internal party dispute over the Schiavo case has ruptured, at least temporarily, the uneasy alliance between economic and social conservatives that twice helped President Bush get elected.

"Advocates of using federal power to keep this woman alive need to seriously study the polling data that's come out on this," said Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform, who has been talking to both social and economic conservatives about the fallout. "I think that a lot of conservative leaders assumed there was broader support for saying that they wanted to have the federal government save this woman's life."

Some Republicans said they do not believe the vote to allow a federal court to examine whether any of Schiavo's constitutional rights had been violated will become a political issue, especially since 47 House Democrats voted for the measure, while 53 voted against.

An issue of 'conscience'
"It was not a partisan issue. It was one of conscience," said Rep. Eric I. Cantor (R-Va.), the chief deputy whip. "People will remember that the majority attempted to address a very difficult situation and did it with a real seriousness of purpose."

Democrats struggled with their own internal divisions over whether to join Republicans in urging federal courts to consider the Schiavo case — or to oppose it as a dangerous legislative overreach. The decision of so many Democrats to support Republican action represented a rare moment of detente between the two otherwise warring parties.

Even House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (Tex.), one of the most partisan politicians in Washington, conceded, "There's been incredible cooperation by the Democrats and Republicans." Aides in both parties say a shared concern about the fate of incapacitated people could lead to bipartisan legislation addressing their rights.

CONTINUED

Crick

03-26-2005, 06:27 AM

Schiavo case tests GOP alliances, priorities

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< Prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >On rocky ground
The fracas over congressional involvement has taken many GOP lawmakers by surprise. Most knew little about the case and were acting at the direction of their leaders, who armed them with the simple argument that they just wanted to give Schiavo a final chance, and that they wanted to err on the side of life. But because of the rush to act and the insistent approach of the leadership, Republicans had no debate about whether their vote could be seen as federal intrusion in a family matter, or as a violation of the separation of powers between the judicial and legislative branches. Both issues are concerns of many voters responding to polls, and of some members themselves.

Republican leaders knew from the outset they were entering new and possibly rocky terrain. DeLay said that he told Judiciary Chairman F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.) two weeks ago, "We have to do something for Terri Schiavo," but that the chairman was reluctant because, as DeLay recounted, "we don't have a precedent for doing private bills in these matters, and he didn't want to violate that precedent."

The majority leader's response to Sensenbrenner: "Be creative."

Resentment among friends
One senior GOP lawmaker involved in the negotiations, who did not want to speak for the record, said that DeLay, who is fighting ethics charges on several fronts, faced considerable pressure from Christian conservative groups to respond to pleas by the parents of the brain-damaged woman to intervene before her husband, Michael Schiavo, removed the feeding tube that kept her alive. The lawmaker said that DeLay "wanted to follow through" but added that many House Republicans were dubious and suspected that the leader's ethics problems were a motivating factor.

Republican concerns grew, the senior House GOP lawmaker said, as a succession of federal judges, some of them conservative appointees, rejected Congress's entreaty. "A lot of members are saying, 'Why did you put us through this?' " said the lawmaker, who agreed to recount the events on the condition that he not be named.

There has been similar grumbling in the Senate, where the Schiavo effort was led by Majority Leader Bill Frist (Tenn.), a former transplant surgeon who is retiring in 2006, presumably to run for president; Sen. Rick Santorum (Pa.), a conservative Catholic who also may harbor presidential ambitions; and freshman Sen. Mel Martinez (Fla.).

Aides to other Republican senators said there was little discussion of the matter outside that group. "It definitely would have gone down differently had it actually been considered," a senior aide to a moderate Republican senator said.

CONTINUED
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< Prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 06:27 AM

How does "WAAAAA" or "AHHHHH" translate into "I want to live?" And then swear to it. I think this follows the line of grasping at straws. I can see where you would want her to talk so bad that you could make yourself believe she talked but to swear to it in an affidavit? Thats a bit much (IMO).

Crick

03-26-2005, 06:29 AM

Schiavo case tests GOP alliances, priorities

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< Prev | 1 | 2 | 3Long-distance diagnoses
The stakes could be particularly high for Frist. Even as he shores up support with one crucial presidential primary voting bloc — Christian conservatives — he may have repelled another: small-government conservatives, who are particularly key in the New Hampshire primary. "A lot of Republicans who vote up here would be inclined to see this as a personal matter . . . and would be uncomfortable with what Congress did," said Dante Scala, a political scientist at St. Anselm College in Manchester, N.H.

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One wild card in the Schiavo debate was the degree to which lawmakers, including DeLay and Frist, questioned Schiavo's medical condition — a persistent vegetative state with no hope for recovery, according to the doctors who examined her. DeLay said of Schiavo, "She talks and she laughs and she expresses happiness and discomfort," and he blamed her inability to speak on the fact that "she's not been afforded any speech therapy — none!"

In a Senate floor statement March 16, Frist referred to a videotaped exam he had seen of Schiavo and suggested there could be questions about her true condition. He described Schiavo as having "a severe disability similar to what cerebral palsy might be." Neurologists and other experts say that Schiavo's facial expressions, captured on videotapes that her parents are circulating, are nothing more than involuntary movements. Scans show her cerebral cortex has been severely damaged, and other tests indicate no normal electrical activity in her brain.

An uphill battle
Aggravating Republican frustrations are disturbing new polls, including a CBS survey that found that 82 percent of Americans — including a whopping 68 percent of people who identify themselves as evangelical Christians — think Congress's intervention was wrong.

Democrats, who note that the action is identified with the GOP-led Congress and the president, hope that the public's negative response could translate into a more general unease with Republican rule. "They look out of step," said Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D-Ill.), a Clinton White House adviser who runs the House Democrats' campaign committee. "This Congress is getting involved in things they shouldn't be getting involved in, and not getting involved in things they should be."

Republicans are "going to get kicked around a lot," said Larry Sabato, director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. On the other hand, he sees a silver lining in the otherwise miserable polls: The minority that does back congressional action probably supports it intensely, while the majority that disagrees "won't remember this woman's name in a few months."

Rep. Bob Beauprez (R-Colo.), who represents one of the toughest districts for Republicans and is exploring a run for governor, flew back to vote for the Schiavo bill and said he has no regrets.

"If civil rights issues are a federal issue, and I agree they are, how about the issue of life?" Beauprez asked. "If I'm going to be the only one standing up at the end of this that said, 'I stood for life,' I'm happy to do that."

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

queenangie

03-26-2005, 06:38 AM

Purposely, I have not responded to this thread.

IMO, I agree with YankeeMary here.

Neurologists that have personally seen, examined, and conducted EEG tests on this lady and know the truth.

It is so sad for all involved.

The parents and media have involved every outsider, in this family matter between husband and wife. They have turned it into a 3 ring circus.

Terrie should be shown dignity and respect
with her last days in Hospice.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 10:23 AM

Your rudness for some reason always surprises me.
So lets take this one step at a time ...

While researching you decide which site to take info from,
What would the name of that site be?
Could you possibly share the name of the site?

I do believe you are the one (if you weren't accept my apology) that asked another poster if we were in still in school. I truly think you believe that by your response to my question. Your assumption that I was so dumb that I couldn't read the word properly was not only childish and rude, by mostly uncalled for.

I was just curious as to where the stats were from (IE:a news site, One of Teri's blogs) being the neg. stats all seem to blame Micheal.

This entire thread is mostly about one woman, a brainless stranger no less, and you are willing to be not so nice to others here that don't agree with you and you kinda "know" us. It is very unsettling.

As I find a great many of your responses to me are rather rude, I tend to respond in kind.

Most of the articles I post include the links from where I gathered them, so I took the question you posed as sarcasm - hence the response in kind.

As for the "BTW" remark - I was teasing kidzpca and she took it as such. Did you read any further in our exchange ? She had missed where I clarified my original and too brief comment. I was tired at the time I first posted the photo & link, and thought anyone would see what I meant. Barring that I thought they *might* "chase down the link" provided and read for themselves. My bad.

Terri is not "brainless" although she is helpless. I have explained several times in this thread why I identify with the pathos of all involved. I find disturbing the number of people who are prepared to STARVE someone to death over their nebulous "quality of life" .... would it hurt to do one more series of tests - test that Judge Greer has ruled against at M. request ? Is it so terribale to err on the side of caution ?

I noticed none of the group so quick to defend M and starve Terri responded to the article on such trivial issues as Civil Rights, habeas review, violence against women ... here - I will repost for your convience.

March 23, 2005
Terri Schiavo and partisan hypocrisy
By Rich Lowry

In response to the GOP-led congressional action intended to restore Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, those Democrats in opposition have attacked Republican hypocrisy in the case. Why suddenly, they ask, is the party of federalism and hostility to an overweening federal judiciary interfering in a state matter and handing the Schiavo case to a federal judge?

If it is disorienting to see Republicans scrambling for federal intervention, at least they are acting on their deepest pro-life convictions — life is to be treasured in whatever form it takes, and preserving it is a paramount value. The starkest inconsistencies are on the other side, on the part of liberals who ordinarily support the federalization of everything, but can't bear the thought of a federal judge reviewing the facts of the Schiavo case to determine whether or not she should be starved to death.

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that the facts of the Schiavo case are in dispute (and they really are) — whether she is in a persistent vegetative state, whether she can improve, whether she had previously expressed a desire to die in these circumstances. Then, let's tally the inconsistencies.

Federal habeas review.

Deathrow inmates, as a matter of course, appeal their cases in the federal courts, even after they have been in the state courts (like the Schiavo case) for years. Liberals have traditionally defended this federal habeas review, even when it drags on endlessly. In the 1990s, Republicans passed legislation signed by President Clinton limiting death-row inmates to one federal appeal. Democratic Rep. John Conyers attacked the bill as "inconsistent with our democratic system of laws."

Conyers was one of 53 House Democrats — half of all Democrats voting — to oppose giving Schiavo essentially the same right to have her case reviewed by a federal judge that he supports for convicted killers.

Civil rights.

Under the Schiavo bill, a federal judge will review whether any of her federal civil rights have been violated. Since when do Democrats oppose federal scrutiny of potential civil-rights violations?

They have consistently used the 14th Amendment to make what had previously been local matters — from voting rights to housing — the jurisdiction of the federal government on civil-rights grounds. They supported federal intervention in 2000 to investigate traffic stops on the New Jersey turnpike that allegedly violated motorists' rights. Traffic stops! But federal judicial review of whether Schiavo should live or die is out of bounds?

The disabled.

Liberals have, to their great credit, been defenders of the disabled. They passed the Americans with Disabilities Act in 1990, a sweeping federal law to prevent the disabled from, for instance, being denied access to movie theaters — a minor question, surely, compared with being denied sustenance. A principled Democrat in this regard is Sen. Tom Harkin (Iowa), an advocate for the disabled who supports taking "every precaution" in the Schiavo case.

Violence against women.

In the early 1990s, Democrats championed legislation to create federal penalties for gender-related violence. In other words, every time some abusive husband slaps his wife, it is a federal matter. But when a husband — with motivations questioned by his wife's family — wants to starve his wife, suddenly some Democrats become George Wallace-like opponents of federal power.

The death penalty.

Whenever life-related issues arise, liberals ask: How can conservatives favor preserving life when they support executing people? There's an answer for that (for another day), but the more acute question is for the other side: How can you oppose death sentences for killers, but support one, in effect, for Schiavo, whose only crime is not being capable of feeding herself?

Of course, it's possible to oppose the Schiavo bill on principled procedural grounds, maintaining that it is not the business of Congress or the federal courts. But one suspects that as soon as they are considering anything other than the fate of poor Terri Schiavo, liberals will lose their newfound suspicion of federal action.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 10:34 AM

Jolie, I can research, too. And all the facts I put will support my side.

Nothing will dispute the fact that the law states Michael is her decision maker.

Little should dispute the fact that M. has created the very condition that he "says" Terri would find intolerable ... removing her from her from a rehab hospital when the doctors reported her a "responding to therapy" and "improving" and placing her in a Nursing Home instead of a recomended Rehab Hospital that specialies in brain injuries; ordering her to be tube fed despite RN's being able to spoon feed her ( protested swallowing tests which could have settle the issue and having the RN removed form Terri's care ) as early as 1993; refusing her to be treated for potentially fatal infections by his own testimony aware that it could have resulted in her death.... I could go on, but it has been posted here already.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 10:37 AM

Interesting how you only quoted half of what I said .....

That's because HALF of it was addressed to someone else.

Actually ALL was addressed to someone else .... which is why I found it interestin you only quoted half .... and out of context.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 10:47 AM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 10:57 AM

HMMMMM I always say follow the money. Jolie do have you come across any reliable research to tell us who gets what money when she dies? To me this would be very telling about who in her family really feels about the whole thing.

M. gets the remaining funds.

If her parents were to gain custody ( or anyone else ) they would recieve the remaining funds to care for Terri. They could also call for an audit and choose to sue for the distribution of the funds if it were not spent on Terri's care.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:05 AM

Speaking of "Following the Money"

Michael Schiavo lawyer gave to judge's campaign
George Felos made contribution to Greer day after key ruling by court in Terri's case
March 25, 2005
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

The judge who tried the Terri Schiavo case and most recently rejected Gov. Jeb Bush's request to intervene, received a campaign contribution from the lawyer pressing for the brain-injured woman's death, raising questions of a conflict of interest.

According to Florida's Department of State, Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer received a contribution of $250 for his 2004 re-election campaign from Felos & Felos, the law firm of George Felos.

Felos, known as a "right-to-die" advocate, represents Terri Schiavo's estranged husband, Michael Schiavo, who won a court order from Greer to have the woman's life-sustaining feeding tube removed one week ago.

The contribution's apparent conflict of interest was raised by an Internet site investigating the Schiavo case, the Empire Journal, and by Rev. D. James Kennedy's group Center for Reclaiming America.

The contribution from Felos came May 7, 2004, one day after Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge Douglas Baird ruled "Terri's Law" unconstitutional. The Florida Legislature's measure was designed to enable Gov. Bush to intervene in the previous instance in which Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed.

The contribution from Felos was the only one made that day, indicating it was not part of a fund-raising effort.

The Empire Journal also reported contributions to Greer were made by three other lawyers who represented Michael Schiavo at various stages in the case.

Deborah Bushnell, Gwyneth Stanley and Stephen G. Nilsson each contributed at least $250 to Greer's re-election campaign, as did court-appointed attorneys representing the husband's interest, Pacarek & Herman and Richard Pearse.

WND attempted to reach the Florida Judicial Qualifications Commission, the independent body that investigates complaints against state judges, but there was no response.

Felos' office in Dunedin, Fla., also could not be reached.

The Empire Journal notes that in Florida, a judge is not required to recuse himself if he receives a contribution from an attorney in a case over which he presides.

Nevertheless, a contribution can establish the appearance of impropriety, and the state's code of judicial conduct requires a judge to remove himself in such a case.

Ronald D. Rotunda, professor of law at George Mason University, told the Empire Journal he sees such contributions as problematic.

He cites a 2002 poll of the American Bar Association concluding 84 percent of all Americans are concerned that the impartiality of judges is compromised by their need to raise campaign contributions.

Rotunda said judicial campaign contributions constitute or appear to constitute a tacit quid pro quo in which the judge favors or tilts towards the contributor-litigant.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43493

------

For those who do not choose to do their own r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h :

For background on the 15-year saga, read "The whole Terri Schiavo story." http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43463

Editor's note: WorldNetDaily has been reporting on the Terri Schiavo story since 2002 - far longer than most other national news organizations - and exposing the many troubling, scandalous, and possibly criminal, aspects of the case that to this day rarely surface in news reports. Read WorldNetDaily's unparalleled, in-depth coverage of the life-and-death fight over Terri Schiavo, including over 150 original stories and columns. www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35305

Court documents and other information are posted on the Schindler family website. www.terrisfight.net

Links to all "Terri briefs" regarding the governor's defense of Terri's Law are on the Florida Supreme Court website, public information. www.flcourts.org/pubinfo/summaries/briefs/04/04-925/index.html

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:15 AM

[center]The Terri Schiavo passion
Robert Novak

WASHINGTON -- When the case of Terri Schiavo came to Washington in what appears to be the last stages of that poor woman's life, it evoked passion contrasting with the usual political play-acting in the nation's capital. The intensity aroused by the Republican-controlled Congress trying to intervene was demonstrated in two instances last Saturday.

In Texas, Democratic Rep. Chet Edwards worked hard to find an airline seat from Houston to Washington for the Sunday session of the House to consider the Schiavo affair. Normally a faithful follower of the Democratic line, he supported the Republican bill interposing federal court jurisdiction.

In Washington, I was engaged during a Saturday night dinner party in debate at a level of intensity I had not seen since the bitter '60s and '70s. My dining companions, mostly mainstream Washington journalists a generation younger than I, were passionately opposed to the congressional intervention.

These disparate activities suggest crosscurrents that do not fit conventional politics. This is not the cold, analytical debate over Social Security. Involved here is a private decision to take a life. Debate about abortion has turned to private decisions taking the lives of indisputable human beings -- increasingly important as life and death questions are posed about an aging population.

The intensity was brought home to me at the Saturday dinner party. A fellow journalist asked me what I thought about the congressional intervention. When I responded that I approved, several colleagues asked how in the world I, of all people, could approve of federal intervention in local affairs. I told them I did not care about that issue but wondered why they were so anxious to end Terri Schiavo's life. They responded that Republicans in Congress were only interested in politics. I had not engaged in such a heated debate with colleagues since the Vietnam War.

These and other critics of saving Schiavo are in the unusual position of citing rights of her husband (whose commonlaw wife has bore him two children) and even states' rights. On ABC's "This Week" Sunday, moderator (and former Clinton aide) George Stephanopoulos asked: "Isn't this a classic case of states' rights?"

The harsh views expressed in a private social situation Saturday were spelled out openly over CNN Monday morning by the network's resident curmudgeon, veteran television journalist Jack Cafferty: "It's all about politics. It has nothing to do with Terri Schiavo. This is all about the abortion debate and right to life and the right wing of the Republican Party. And it's all cloaked in some, you know, mantra that says, 'Oh, we're worried about this woman's life.' Baloney!"

Evidence that Cafferty had it wrong and that the politicians were different from the journalists came with Sunday's vote in the House. The party-line polarization ended with Democrats who came back to vote splitting down the middle -- 47 for, 53 against. It was significant that Chet Edwards was one of the 47. Although he calls himself a "moderate," his liberal voting record (as measured by Americans for Democratic Action) is usually around 80 percent. He is a partisan Democrat who last year narrowly escaped Majority Leader Tom DeLay's Texas redistricting.

While 102 House Democrats did not find their way back, Edwards made sure he got there. Finding all seats filled on Continental and United planes from Houston to Washington, he managed to get a seat on a Southwest flight to Baltimore. When he listened to the debate, he was struck that Republicans seemed to be pleading for help for the unfortunate while Democrats were arguing legalisms. "It was difficult," Edwards told me, "but if we had to err, it would be better to err to keep her alive."

Nine members of the Congressional Black Caucus agreed. So did such tried-and-true Democratic stalwarts as James Oberstar of Minnesota, Dale Kildee of Michigan and Jose Serrano of New York.

On Monday night, Ralph Nader was substituting as left-wing host on CNN's "Crossfire" and seemed uncomfortable grilling Republican Rep. David Dreier of California. After the show, the old reformer noted to me that it was illegal to starve a dog to death but it was being done to Terri Schiavo. This is an issue truly transcending normal political boundaries.

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 11:24 AM

As I find a great many of your responses to me are rather rude, I tend to respond in kind.

Most of the articles I post include the links from where I gathered them, so I took the question you posed as sarcasm - hence the response in kind.

As for the "BTW" remark - I was teasing kidzpca and she took it as such. Did you read any further in our exchange ? She had missed where I clarified my original and too brief comment. I was tired at the time I first posted the photo & link, and thought anyone would see what I meant. Barring that I thought they *might* "chase down the link" provided and read for themselves. My bad.

Terri is not "brainless" although she is helpless. I have explained several times in this thread why I identify with the pathos of all involved. I find disturbing the number of people who are prepared to STARVE someone to death over their nebulous "quality of life" .... would it hurt to do one more series of tests - test that Judge Greer has ruled against at M. request ? Is it so terribale to err on the side of caution ?

I noticed none of the group so quick to defend M and starve Terri responded to the article on such trivial issues as Civil Rights, habeas review, violence against women ... here - I will repost for your convience.

March 23, 2005
Terri Schiavo and partisan hypocrisy
By Rich Lowry

In response to the GOP-led congressional action intended to restore Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, those Democrats in opposition have attacked Republican hypocrisy in the case. Why suddenly, they ask, is the party of federalism and hostility to an overweening federal judiciary interfering in a state matter and handing the Schiavo case to a federal judge?

If it is disorienting to see Republicans scrambling for federal intervention, at least they are acting on their deepest pro-life convictions — life is to be treasured in whatever form it takes, and preserving it is a paramount value. The starkest inconsistencies are on the other side, on the part of liberals who ordinarily support the federalization of everything, but can't bear the thought of a federal judge reviewing the facts of the Schiavo case to determine whether or not she should be starved to death.

Let's stipulate for the sake of argument that the facts of the Schiavo case are in dispute (and they really are) — whether she is in a persistent vegetative state, whether she can improve, whether she had previously expressed a desire to die in these circumstances. Then, let's tally the inconsistencies.

Federal habeas review.

Deathrow inmates, as a matter of course, appeal their cases in the federal courts, even after they have been in the state courts (like the Schiavo case) for years. Liberals have traditionally defended this federal habeas review, even when it drags on endlessly. In the 1990s, Republicans passed legislation signed by President Clinton limiting death-row inmates to one federal appeal. Democratic Rep. John Conyers attacked the bill as "inconsistent with our democratic system of laws."

Conyers was one of 53 House Democrats — half of all Democrats voting — to oppose giving Schiavo essentially the same right to have her case reviewed by a federal judge that he supports for convicted killers.

Civil rights.

Under the Schiavo bill, a federal judge will review whether any of her federal civil rights have been violated. Since when do Democrats oppose federal scrutiny of potential civil-rights violations?

They have consistently used the 14th Amendment to make what had previously been local matters — from voting rights to housing — the jurisdiction of the federal government on civil-rights grounds. They supported federal intervention in 2000 to investigate traffic stops on the New Jersey turnpike that allegedly violated motorists' rights. Traffic stops! But federal judicial review of whether Schiavo should live or die is out of bounds?

The disabled.

Liberals have, to their great credit, been defenders of the disabled. They passed the Americans with Disabilities Act in 1990, a sweeping federal law to prevent the disabled from, for instance, being denied access to movie theaters — a minor question, surely, compared with being denied sustenance. A principled Democrat in this regard is Sen. Tom Harkin (Iowa), an advocate for the disabled who supports taking "every precaution" in the Schiavo case.

Violence against women.

In the early 1990s, Democrats championed legislation to create federal penalties for gender-related violence. In other words, every time some abusive husband slaps his wife, it is a federal matter. But when a husband — with motivations questioned by his wife's family — wants to starve his wife, suddenly some Democrats become George Wallace-like opponents of federal power.

The death penalty.

Whenever life-related issues arise, liberals ask: How can conservatives favor preserving life when they support executing people? There's an answer for that (for another day), but the more acute question is for the other side: How can you oppose death sentences for killers, but support one, in effect, for Schiavo, whose only crime is not being capable of feeding herself?

Of course, it's possible to oppose the Schiavo bill on principled procedural grounds, maintaining that it is not the business of Congress or the federal courts. But one suspects that as soon as they are considering anything other than the fate of poor Terri Schiavo, liberals will lose their newfound suspicion of federal action.
This still didn't answer my question...where did you get the list of facts that you posted, NOT THIS ARTICLE. I simply asked you, not in any way rude or nasty, you responded with r-e-s-e-a-r-c-h, why you felt to do this is beyond me, especially since I remarked that there are so many it hard to find facts out of all the articles posted on feelings.

I do not know how to double quote so I copied and pasted...
Jolie posted...

How can you oppose death sentences for killers, but support one, in effect, for Schiavo, whose only crime is not being capable of feeding herself?

Me...
She is uncapable of feeding herself because her brain is a liquid.

Jolie posted:
I noticed none of the group so quick to defend M and starve Terri responded to the article on such trivial issues as Civil Rights, habeas review, violence against women ...

Me...
I do NOT feel that her rights are being violated by allowing her to die. I do NOT believe Micheal was violent towards her as there is no proof, its just been proven that it didn't exisit. IMO everyone is grasping at straws. Why didn't the parents bring the "abuse" up after all these years?

Jolie posted:
would it hurt to do one more series of tests - test that Judge Greer has ruled against at M. request ? Is it so terribale to err on the side of caution ?

Me...
When is just one more test going to be enough? Everytime she fails a test, the ones that want to prolong her so called life, says just one more test...enough is enough.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:24 AM

Ignore evidence, refuse to accept testimony, forbid tests which would have proved or disproved M's position ... Heck of a way to run an "objective" Court.

I used to do research in Court Records for a Law Office ....

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant

1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.

1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.

1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.

1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.

1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.

1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.

1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.

2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.

2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .

2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greerapproved payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.

Sorry, I do not and cannot believe something that is placed in front me. What is the source for this?

Yeah where do you get all this?

Links to all "Terri briefs" regarding the governor's defense of Terri's Law are on the Florida Supreme Court website, public information. http://www.flcourts.org/pubinfo/sum...-925/index.html

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:30 AM

Florida neurologist: Terri's no vegetable
Doctor for state's adult protective services finds Schiavo has been wrongly diagnosed
March 24, 2005
By Joseph Farah
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

An eminent neurologist who evaluated Terri Schiavo for the Florida state Department of Children and Families yesterday concluded she has been wrongly diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state and urges immediate removal to another facility and the restoration of food and water to the dying woman who has become the focal point of the nation's attention.

In his affidavit to the court, obtained by WorldNetDaily, Dr. William Polk Cheshire Jr. found Schiavo is aware of pain and reacts visibly to it. She also reacts to the expectation of pain based on conversations she overhears in her room. "If Terri is consciously aware of pain, and therefore is capable of suffering, then her diagnosis of PVS may be tragically mistaken," he writes.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush announced yesterday that Dr. Cheshire, Jr., as part of a DCF review team, had concluded that Schiavo might not be in a persistent vegetative state but rather in "a state of minimal consciousness." Bush said. "This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action."

DCF Secretary Luci Hadi said that under state law the agency is authorized to intervene and have Schiavo's sustenance restored even without a court order.

But last night, Bush spokesman Jacob DiPietre said the administration had no plans to defy Greer's order.

Pinellas County Judge George Greer said he expected to have a final ruling on the case by noon today after reviewing the new evidence. He blocked an effort by DCF to rescue Schiavo.

"It is my understanding that nearly three years have passed since Terri has had the benefit of neurologic consultation," Dr. Cheshire wrote in his affidavit. "How then are we to be certain about her current neurologic status? There remain, in fact, huge uncertainties in regard to Terri's true neurologic status."

Dr. Cheshire is the director of a laboratory at the Mayo Clinic branch in Jacksonville that deals with unconscious reflexes like digestion.

Cheshire cited studies indicating a high rate of false initial diagnoses of PVS.

"Furthermore, the diagnosis of minimally conscious state had not yet become standard parlance in the field of neurology at the time of Terri's initial diagnosis," he wrote. "The minimally conscious state has emerged as a distinct diagnostic entity within the last few years."

Cheshire also pointed out that Schiavo has not undergone functional imaging studies, such as positron emission tomography, or PET, or functional magnetic resonance imagining, or fMRI.

"New facts have come to light in the last few years that should be weighed in the neurologic assessment of Terri Schiavo," he said. "Significant strides have been made in the scientific understanding of PVS and minimally conscious states since Terri last underwent neurologic evaluation. As usually happens with science, the newest evidence is prompting the medical community to think about this field in new ways. With new evidence comes fresh appreciation for what is actually happening in the brains of persons with profound cognitive impairment."

Cheshire said news studies show that when patients in a minimally conscious state listen to narratives read by a familiar person "large areas of the cerebral cortex normally involved in language recognition and processing lit up." He said the presence of metabolic activity in those brain cells was far more than expected.

He cited seven reasons to doubt the prior diagnosis of PVS in Terri Schiavo:

He found her facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of familiar people such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played. "When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs." Cheshire said several times he witnessed Schiavo laugh when someone in the room made a humorous comment.

She fixates her gaze on colorful objects and human faces for up to 15 seconds at a time and occasionally follows with her eyes as objects move from side to side. "When I first walked into the room, she immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face. There was a look of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she maintained eye contact for about half a minute." Cheshire said she also appeared to attempt to speak to him.

Although he did not hear her utter distinct words, the doctor said "she demonstrates emotional expressivity by her use of single syllable vocalizations and cooing sounds. In reviewing previous affidavits, he noted that as late as 2003, the patient was heard to tell nurses to "stop" during certain procedures.

He noted that in a previous examination by a neurologist, the patient appeared to try to follow certain commands – such as closing her eyes. She also raised her right leg four times when asked to do so in 2002 under examination.

In that same 2002 examination by a neurologist, captured on videotape, Schiavo was turned on her side and probed with a sharp piece of wood. She reacted with sounds of discomfort. After that procedure, the neurologist commented to her parents that they would have to roll her over on her other side. Schiavo vocalized a crying sound in response. "It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is touching Terri or causing actual pain," he writes. Rather, he says, she appears to comprehending what was said and anticipating pain.

According to the definition of PVS, he writes, patients do not have the capacity to experience pain and suffering. Yet, he concludes, after reviewing her medical records, pain issues frequently arise. "The nurses at Woodside Hospice told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps." The pain and agitation subside when she is given ibuprofen. "If Terri is consciously aware of pain, and therefore is capable of suffering, then her diagnosis of PVS may be tragically mistaken," he concludes.

"To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense no longer there," he writes. "Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness, or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

"As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience withdraw her feeding and hydration," he wrote. "No, I could not. I could not withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose face brightens in the presence of others."

Cheshire indicated he could see no reason to withdraw the sustenance. "This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of illness," he wrote. "Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the withdrawal of food and water, she would not die."

On the basis of all of those findings, Dr. Cheshire concluded "it would be wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water."

"At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for five days," he wrote. "She is at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would be medically necessary to initiate hydration and ensure that her serum electrolytes are within normal values."

Cheshire concluded: "How medicine and society choose to think about Terri Schiavo will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved, it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43470

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:37 AM

Nurse: Michael tried to kill Terri
Former caregiver asserts husband 'doesn't want the truth to be known'
March 22, 2005

Michael Schiavo once tried to kill his wife Terri with insulin shots, according to a former caregiver for the brain-injured Florida woman.

The estranged husband -- who is living with another woman with whom he has two children -- "wants her to die; he doesn't want the truth to be known," said Carla Sauer Iyer in an interview this morning on the Fox News Channel program "Fox and Friends."

WorldNetDaily reported the registered nurse's testimony in 2003 when it was presented in a 24-page complaint filed in a federal lawsuit alleging Michael Schiavo had forbidden medical professionals to provide his wife with any therapy or rehabilitation and had attempted to hasten her death while she was a patient at the Pinellas Park, Fla., hospice she has lived in since 2000.

After Terri Schiavo's collapse in 1990 under disputed circumstances, Michael Schiavo won a malpractice lawsuit, promising to use the money for her therapy. Afterward, however, he requested a "do not resuscitate" order, refused therapy and barred stimulation and treatment for infections.

Michael Schiavo believes the collapse, during which oxygen temporarily was cut off to the brain, was the result of an eating disorder, but her parents suspect he tried to strangle her.

Iyer said in the FNC interview that when Terri Schiavo was having a urinary tract infection, Michael Schiavo "would be excited, thrilled, even hoping that she would die soon."

"What makes you say that?" Iyer was asked.

"He would blurt out 'When is she gonna die? When is that B-I-T-C-H gonna die? Hasn't she died yet?'"

A federal judge early this morning refused to order reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube after emergency intervention by Congress and President Bush.

The tube was removed Friday afternoon after Florida courts rejected a flurry of motions by Robert and Mary Schindler to keep their daughter alive.

In a 13-page ruling, U.S. District Judge James Whittemore of Tampa said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments.

'Help me'

In her sworn affidavit, Iyer, who cared for Terri Schiavo from April 1995 until August of 1996, stated Terri used to talk to her as much as she could and frequently used what sounded like the word "pain." She also interpreted Terri's vocalizing at times as crying "help me."

Terri responding to her mother in video clip available on terrisfight.org

In contrast, the courts are operating on the finding of fact that Terri Schiavo is in a "persistant vegetative state" and does not intentionally respond to stimuli. The Schindlers insist that while Terri is severely handicapped, she recognizes them and interacts with laughter, crying, moans and attempts to form words.

Iyer says she was fired after notifying police about her suspicions.

While acknowledging she had no proof, the nurse said she suspects Michael Schiavo injected Terri, who normally has "very stable" blood sugar levels, with regular insulin to drive her into hypoglycemic shock during his visits. "Terri would be trembling, crying hysterically and would be very pale and have cold sweats," Iyer wrote. "So I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low that it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading."

Schiavo repeatedly and strenuously has denied allegations of abuse. Felos described the accusations as "a bunch of garbage." He called caregivers' claims Terri spoke to them "a fabrication."

In the Fox News Channel interview today, Iyer said she saw needle marks under Terri Schiavo's breast and groin after Michael Schiavo had been left in the closed room with her. A used syringe was found in the trash.

Iyer said that when Michael Schiavo found out she and another nurse were feeding Terri liquids and liquified foods, he warned he would get them fired if they didn't stop.

These facts were not taken into consideration in the court cases, Iyer stated. " ... I think a gag order was put on all confidence things Terri had done," Iyer said.

One of the Schindlers' legal roadblocks is that in the original hearings more than 10 years ago, they followed the advice of a lawyer who had them agree to stipulate that Terri was in a "persistant vegetative state."

Subsequently, they provided the court with "reams of medical evidence" indicating Terri could be rehabilitated, but the court would not consider it because of the stipulation, according to a spokesman, Gary McCullough. "It was a huge error on the part of lawyers at the front end," he said.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43427

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:42 AM

Terri's death wish or Michael's?
Schiavo contradicts himself in Larry King interview
March 20, 2005

Michael Schiavo gave contradictory stories about whether disconnecting his estranged wife from feeding tubes was his wish or her wish in a Larry King interview on CNN.

Asked why he has persisted in his decade-long effort to end his wife's life despite the wishes of Terri Schiavo's parents and others who love her, Schiavo said: "Because this is what Terri wanted. This is her wish."

"I won't give it up," he said. "Terri is my life. I'm going to carry out her wishes to the very end. This is what she wanted. It's not about the Schindlers. It's not about me, not about Congress. It's about Terri."

This statement is at odds with one he made under oath four years earlier.

During a deposition of Sept. 27, 1999, attorney Pamela Campbell – who represented Terri's parents – asked Schiavo, "Have you considered turning the guardianship over to [Robert and Mary] Schindler?" and he answered, "No, I have not."

Asked why he wouldn't, Schiavo answered, "Basically, I don't want to do it."

When Campbell pressed him to be more specific, Schiavo declared, "Because they put me through pretty much hell the last few years. ... Just their attitude towards me because of the litigations. There is no other reason. I'm Terri's husband and I will remain guardian."

Schiavo has been living with another woman for the last 10 years and is raising two children with her.

Under mysterious and still unexplained circumstances, Terri Schiavo lost consciousness and blood flow to her brain for a period of time some 15 years ago. Her parents suspect foul play.

While she remains conscious, she is unable to speak. The family says she has been denied treatments that could help her regain the ability to eat and speak.

Shortly after saying his determination to end Terri's life was about her wishes, Schiavo changed his story in the King interview. Asked if he understood her family's feelings, he said: "Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want. ..."

The interview aired Friday, March 18.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43401

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:50 AM

Attorneys: Schiavo Settlement Money Spent
By The Associated Press

Michael Schiavo sued medical professionals who he said failed to recognize symptoms that caused his wife's heart to stop beating, causing her brain damage, and won a $1 million settlement. But attorneys say most of the money is gone, spent on her care and legal bills:

More than half of the $700,000 earmarked from the malpractice award for Terri Schiavo's care has been spent for that purpose, with the rest going toward litigation, said Deborah Bushnell, one of Michael Schiavo's attorneys.

As of mid-March, just $40,000 to $50,000 remained of that money, Bushnell said, and was held in a trust fund. A judge approves all expenditures, from attorneys' fees to the woman's haircuts.

Bushnell said she has been paid $80,309 since getting involved in the case in 1993. George Felos, who was hired by Michael Schiavo around the time he began the effort to remove his wife's feeding tube in 1998, has been paid $358,434, she said. Neither attorney has petitioned the court for payment since 2002.

Terri Schiavo has stayed for free at the Woodside Hospice - part of a not-for-profit hospice network - because she was considered indigent, Bushnell said.

Terri Schiavo's medical costs - which Bushnell says are relatively small - have been paid for the past couple of years by the state's Medicaid program for needy people.

Michael Schiavo got about $300,000 in the malpractice case, but Bushnell said she did not know how it was spent or if any is left.

03/26/05 14:18

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050326%2F1418169998.htm&sc=1110

Linus1223

03-26-2005, 11:52 AM

Actually ALL was addressed to someone else .... which is why I found it interestin you only quoted half .... and out of context.

Actually, Jolie, if you look at post 290 and then what you quoted in 299, half of it was quoted from someone else, and half of it was quoted from me.

And if I quote something, how is that out of context? Again, I quotedwhat was ADDRESSED TO ME.

tigger4

03-26-2005, 11:54 AM

As far as the nurse who has come forward claiming that Michael tried to kill Terri with insulin. She reported this to the police years ago and they found absolutely no proof. She claimed there were injection sites and there were none to be found. She was fired the next day for inadequate care of a patient. I find it odd that she is just now going public with her claims. Sounds like she wants her 15 minutes of fame to me.

Her parents floor me. I cannot believe the mother stated in an affadavit that Terri spoke to them. She cannot speak. The section of her brain that controls speach is now liquid.

Her parents are desperate. And the politicians are looking for votes. And the protesters are just wrong. You do not stand outside of a hospice and yell and make an idiot out of yourself. There are people in there trying to die in peace. That is what hospice is for. If I had a relative in that hospice I would be on the phone with the police constantly until they were removed. There is no sense in that. And the people who use their children to try to bring water into Terri should be investigated by Child Protective Services for allowing their children to take part in an illegal act.

Let the poor woman die. My heart absolutely breaks for her. :(

YNKYH8R

03-26-2005, 11:55 AM

Not honorable becuase there are many negative things appointed towards him and his ways.
Propoganda from the right wing fundiental christians

Not honorable becasue he is pushing towards letting a person die in this way. There is no other way for her to die naturally.

Not honorable because he did a lot of things so some say, and could be true, that were not in her best interest. Like you said 'so some say'

Not honorable becuase there is no way to prove or demonstrate this as her will, just by his mouth, after so many years, he came to say this very late, why didn't he say this earlier and not 7 or 8 years later, suspicious. Because he spent time working on ways to help her. And it was proven by court experts and fact finders.

Not honorable because he chose to have other partners and girlfriends even children with one, still being married to Terri, how can anybody say he is honorable for that??!! :(Although it may seem strange to you, it is quite normal to 'move on'. Especially since there was no hope.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:55 AM

Terri's Last Chance Denied
Parents End Fight
By MIKE SCHNEIDER

CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) - A state judge on Saturday rejected another attempt by Terri Schiavo's parents to have her feeding tube reconnected, rejecting what the couple's lawyer described as their last chance to keep their severely brain-damaged daughter alive.

Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer denied a motion filed Friday in which Bob and Mary Schindler claimed their daughter tried to say ``I want to live'' just before her feeding tube was removed, saying ``AHHHHH'' and ``WAAAAAAA'' when asked to repeat the phrase.

Doctors have said Schiavo's past utterances were involuntary moans consistent with someone in a vegetative state.

David Gibbs III, the Schindlers' lead attorney, described the motion before Greer the couple's last legal option, saying the couple had ended their federal appeals less than a week after Congress passed an extraordinary law to let them take the case to federal court. ``There is nothing that can be brought back to the court federally that will in any way help Terri,'' Gibbs said.

The Schindlers are still holding out hope for an unlikely intervention by Gov. Jeb Bush, who has said he has done everything in his power to take custody of Schiavo.

As of Saturday afternoon, Schiavo had been without food or water for eight full days, and doctors have said she would probably die within a week or two of her feeding tube being pulled.

Her lawyers, however, have said Schiavo - whose dehydrated body has begun to shut down - may not survive the weekend. ``Time is moving quickly, and it would appear most likely - absent the state court stepping forward - that Terri Schiavo will pass the point that she will be able to recover over this Easter weekend,'' Gibbs said.

The 11th Circuit Court has denied three emergency requests made by Schiavo's parents, most recently on Friday. The U.S. Supreme Court, without explanation, refused to order the feeding tube reinserted.

The motion filed Friday before Greer had been considered a long shot. Greer had repeatedly ruled against the Schindlers. Attorneys for Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, argued Friday that the Schindlers had abandoned all pretense of the law and were simply making ``a pure emotional appeal.''

Michael Schiavo says his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially. Attorney George Felos didn't return a phone message seeking comment Saturday.

Bob Schindler pleaded with Gov. Jeb Bush to intervene by taking temporary custody of their daughter while court challenges are argued. Bush, who has been a staunch supporter of the Schindlers, said Thursday he is not willing to go beyond the boundaries of his powers and that he was hoping the courts would provide relief. ``We are continuing to do whatever we can, and we are pursuing all the options available to us in this case,'' Bush spokesman Jacob DiPietre said.

Terri Schiavo suffered brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped briefly from a chemical imbalance believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. She left no living will.

She went without food and water in 2003 when the feeding tube was removed for six days and five hours. It was reinserted when Bush and the Legislature pushed through a law that was later thrown out by the state Supreme Court.

Outside the hospice, eight more people - including a 10-year old boy and 13-year-old twin girls - were arrested Friday for trying to bring her water.

``I'm so discouraged, I feel so helpless,'' said Christine Ambrusko, a student from Atlanta. ``I don't know how in our civilized country we can allow a person to be starved to death with so many questions unanswered.''

On Friday, the FBI said a man was arrested in Fairview, N.C., allegedly for offering a $250,000 bounty for Michael Schiavo's death and $50,000 for that of a judge in the case. The FBI did not identify the judge.

Richard Alan Meywes allegedly sent the threatening e-mail Tuesday to two Tampa-area news organizations and the host of a national conservative talk show, the FBI said.

Meywes was taken into custody at his home and charged with murder for hire and with the transmission of interstate threatening communications, the FBI said. If convicted, Meywes could face up to 15 years in prison and fines up to $500,000.

Associated Press writers Mark Long and Mitch Stacy in Clearwater, Vickie Chachere and Jill Barton in Tampa, and Jackie Hallifax and Brendan Farrington in Tallahassee contributed to this report.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001/20050326/1229166253.htm&ewp=ewp_news_0305terri&floc=NW_1-T

03/26/05 12:29

Linus1223

03-26-2005, 11:56 AM

I used to do research in Court Records for a Law Office ....

Links to all "Terri briefs" regarding the governor's defense of Terri's Law are on the Florida Supreme Court website, public information. http://www.flcourts.org/pubinfo/sum...-925/index.html

But none of this is from flcourts.org or research that you compiled...It is taken directly from terrisfight.org.

bulldog6186

03-26-2005, 11:57 AM

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 11:59 AM

The thing that gets me the most is everyone that is against the tube being removed is calling it cruel. But geez, she had an eating disorder...she is "use" to the feeling of hunger. So it should affect her less then lets say someone like me that is overweight. I do not like that this is the way she has to pass, but there truly is no other option.

As for the money...there can't be any left, since she is one state funded medical insurance.

Linus1223

03-26-2005, 12:00 PM

Terri's Last Chance Denied
Parents End Fight
By MIKE SCHNEIDER

On Friday, the FBI said a man was arrested in Fairview, N.C., allegedly for offering a $250,000 bounty for Michael Schiavo's death and $50,000 for that of a judge in the case. The FBI did not identify the judge.

I saw this on the news last night...Does anyone else see the irony in this? :rolleyes: :mad: :(

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:01 PM

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:01 PM

I saw this on the news last night...Does anyone else see the irony in this? :rolleyes: :mad: :(
I hear yah..lol...on our news it stated that several of the judges, attorneys and Micheal have received death threats...kill someone so another can live...quite a twist.

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:05 PM

menanamama

03-26-2005, 12:06 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:07 PM

But none of this is from flcourts.org or research that you compiled...It is taken directly from terrisfight.org.

cross-referencing ??

I verified the info posted at terrisfight.

I get very frustrated at the amount of research I do and the work invovled to have people ( some who can't be bothered to "chase a link" when it is provided ... not you, Linus ) just dimiss the effort because they they a) disagree with me ( which I can understand - what a boring place if eveyone was the same ) or because b) they are too lazy to do any research on their own or on their own postition ( again, not you Linus )

:rolleyes:

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:09 PM

not so! if it is in an irrevocable trust (can not be touched) she can still qualify for medicaid.
I understand what you are saying about money being in that type of trust, but if the money was awarded specifically for "medical care" then it would have to be spent on medical care before the state would be able to place her on medicaid, I would think. It was only $700,000 maybe a bit more but still it would only last so long, it should have been spent up a while ago.

What about before the money ran out...how were Teri's medical bills paid? Anyone know?

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:15 PM

I do not know how to double quote so I copied and pasted...

imbedded quote [/quote ]
[/quote ]

remove the blank spaces ... leaves you with :

[quote=YankeeMary] [quote=Linus1223]
I saw this on the news last night...Does anyone else see the irony in this?

I hear yah..lol...on our news it stated that several of the judges, attorneys and Micheal have received death threats...kill someone so another can live...quite a twist.

Makes about as much sense as "christian sites" that posted "bounties" on doctors that provided abortions .... idiotic.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:20 PM

Actually, she testified under oath at BOTH hearings where M. petitioned the court to remove the feeding tube. Greer refused to accept the testimony. She was fired in part for going against M's direct orders and spoon feeding jello and ice chips to Terri. She testified that Terri evidenced enjoyment and would even profess a preference for lime jello when presented with a choice.

Just be cause you testify under oath doesn't mean you are telling the truth. Think about it...lets say an atheist had to swear on a Bible to tell the truth, what fear what would the atheist really fear? The whole idea of having to swear on a Bible is the "consiquince" (SP) of the Lord. There have been many many lie on the stand, especially against someone they do not care for. I can't imagine someone that has a "liquid brain" say or act as if they liked "lime jello" better then the others. IMO it is totally ridiculous.

Florida neurologist: Terri's no vegetable
Doctor for state's adult protective services finds Schiavo has been wrongly diagnosed
March 24, 2005
By Joseph Farah
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

An eminent neurologist who evaluated Terri Schiavo for the Florida state Department of Children and Families yesterday concluded she has been wrongly diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state and urges immediate removal to another facility and the restoration of food and water to the dying woman who has become the focal point of the nation's attention.

In his affidavit to the court, obtained by WorldNetDaily, Dr. William Polk Cheshire Jr. found Schiavo is aware of pain and reacts visibly to it. She also reacts to the expectation of pain based on conversations she overhears in her room. "If Terri is consciously aware of pain, and therefore is capable of suffering, then her diagnosis of PVS may be tragically mistaken," he writes.

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush announced yesterday that Dr. Cheshire, Jr., as part of a DCF review team, had concluded that Schiavo might not be in a persistent vegetative state but rather in "a state of minimal consciousness." Bush said. "This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action."

DCF Secretary Luci Hadi said that under state law the agency is authorized to intervene and have Schiavo's sustenance restored even without a court order.

But last night, Bush spokesman Jacob DiPietre said the administration had no plans to defy Greer's order.

Pinellas County Judge George Greer said he expected to have a final ruling on the case by noon today after reviewing the new evidence. He blocked an effort by DCF to rescue Schiavo.

"It is my understanding that nearly three years have passed since Terri has had the benefit of neurologic consultation," Dr. Cheshire wrote in his affidavit. "How then are we to be certain about her current neurologic status? There remain, in fact, huge uncertainties in regard to Terri's true neurologic status."

Dr. Cheshire is the director of a laboratory at the Mayo Clinic branch in Jacksonville that deals with unconscious reflexes like digestion.

Cheshire cited studies indicating a high rate of false initial diagnoses of PVS.

"Furthermore, the diagnosis of minimally conscious state had not yet become standard parlance in the field of neurology at the time of Terri's initial diagnosis," he wrote. "The minimally conscious state has emerged as a distinct diagnostic entity within the last few years."

Cheshire also pointed out that Schiavo has not undergone functional imaging studies, such as positron emission tomography, or PET, or functional magnetic resonance imagining, or fMRI.

"New facts have come to light in the last few years that should be weighed in the neurologic assessment of Terri Schiavo," he said. "Significant strides have been made in the scientific understanding of PVS and minimally conscious states since Terri last underwent neurologic evaluation. As usually happens with science, the newest evidence is prompting the medical community to think about this field in new ways. With new evidence comes fresh appreciation for what is actually happening in the brains of persons with profound cognitive impairment."

Cheshire said news studies show that when patients in a minimally conscious state listen to narratives read by a familiar person "large areas of the cerebral cortex normally involved in language recognition and processing lit up." He said the presence of metabolic activity in those brain cells was far more than expected.

He cited seven reasons to doubt the prior diagnosis of PVS in Terri Schiavo:

He found her facial expression brightens and she smiles in response to the voice of familiar people such as her parents or her nurse. Her agitation subsides and her facial demeanor softens when quiet music is played. "When jubilant piano music is played, her face brightens, she lifts her eyebrows, smiles, and even laughs." Cheshire said several times he witnessed Schiavo laugh when someone in the room made a humorous comment.

She fixates her gaze on colorful objects and human faces for up to 15 seconds at a time and occasionally follows with her eyes as objects move from side to side. "When I first walked into the room, she immediately turned her head toward me and looked directly at my face. There was a look of curiosity or expectation in her expression, and she maintained eye contact for about half a minute." Cheshire said she also appeared to attempt to speak to him.

Although he did not hear her utter distinct words, the doctor said "she demonstrates emotional expressivity by her use of single syllable vocalizations and cooing sounds. In reviewing previous affidavits, he noted that as late as 2003, the patient was heard to tell nurses to "stop" during certain procedures.

He noted that in a previous examination by a neurologist, the patient appeared to try to follow certain commands – such as closing her eyes. She also raised her right leg four times when asked to do so in 2002 under examination.

In that same 2002 examination by a neurologist, captured on videotape, Schiavo was turned on her side and probed with a sharp piece of wood. She reacted with sounds of discomfort. After that procedure, the neurologist commented to her parents that they would have to roll her over on her other side. Schiavo vocalized a crying sound in response. "It is important to note that, at that moment, no one is touching Terri or causing actual pain," he writes. Rather, he says, she appears to comprehending what was said and anticipating pain.

According to the definition of PVS, he writes, patients do not have the capacity to experience pain and suffering. Yet, he concludes, after reviewing her medical records, pain issues frequently arise. "The nurses at Woodside Hospice told us that she often has pain with menstrual cramps." The pain and agitation subside when she is given ibuprofen. "If Terri is consciously aware of pain, and therefore is capable of suffering, then her diagnosis of PVS may be tragically mistaken," he concludes.

"To enter the room of Terri Schiavo is nothing like entering the room of a patient who is comatose or brain-dead or in some neurological sense no longer there," he writes. "Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness, or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her."

"As I looked at Terri, and she gazed directly back at me, I asked myself whether, if I were her attending physician, I could in good conscience withdraw her feeding and hydration," he wrote. "No, I could not. I could not withdraw life support if I were asked. I could not withhold life-sustaining nutrition and hydration from this beautiful lady whose face brightens in the presence of others."

Cheshire indicated he could see no reason to withdraw the sustenance. "This situation differs fundamentally from end-of-life scenarios where it is appropriate to withdraw life-sustaining medical interventions that no longer benefit or are burdensome to patients in the terminal stages of illness," he wrote. "Terri's feeding tube is not a burden to her. It is not painful, is not infected, is not eroding her stomach lining or causing any medical complications. But for the decision to withdraw her feeding tube, Terri cannot be considered medically terminal. But for the withdrawal of food and water, she would not die."

On the basis of all of those findings, Dr. Cheshire concluded "it would be wrong to bring about her death by withdrawing food and water."

"At the time of this writing, Terri Schiavo, as the result of decisions based on what I have argued to be a faulty diagnosis of persistent vegetative state, has been without food or water for five days," he wrote. "She is at risk of death or serious injury unless the provision of food and water can be restored. Terri Schiavo lacks the capacity to consent to emergency protective services and must trust others to act on her behalf. If she were to be transferred to another facility, it would be medically necessary to initiate hydration and ensure that her serum electrolytes are within normal values."

Cheshire concluded: "How medicine and society choose to think about Terri Schiavo will influence what kind of people we will be as we evaluate and respond to the needs of the most vulnerable people among us. When serious doubts exist as to whether a cognitively impaired person is or is not consciously aware, even if these doubts cannot be conclusively resolved, it is better to err on the side of protecting vulnerable life."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43470

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:20 PM

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:20 PM

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:23 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:26 PM

I have searched and searched this post....I have yet to find the link...has nothing to do with my laziness that you didn't post where you got this from. I simply wanted to find out, since IMO it is so one sided if it came from Teri's site or if it was from lets say a news site. You are normally very good about posting where ALL of your many articles come from, just found it unusual that you didn't post it for this one. I truly didn't mean to start you on such an upset, just wanted to know is all. As for calling those lazy for not chasing links down is a bit much, there are much better words out there that fit me, fortunatly lazy isn't one of those. Can you imagine how many sites I would have to look up to find what you posted...with my luck it would be like 100,000 and I wouldn't find it until the last one. That is why I asked you. Hope that clears some things up for you as to my response to the above quoted post.

I didn't mean you ... I shall amend my comments " Not you or Linus "

I was refering to a few who have "bashed" me in this thread and others ... while offering anything constructive of their own.

I crawled thu several hundred pages of documnts in the Fl Court records site ... way too many to post each one seperately ... and I am too "lazy" to go back and find them all again...

Every one is a bit on edge in this thread ... myself included.

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 12:37 PM

I didn't mean you ... I shall amend my comments " Not you or Linus "

I was refering to a few who have "bashed" me in this thread and others ... while offering anything constructive of their own.

I crawled thu several hundred pages of documnts in the Fl Court records site ... way too many to post each one seperately ... and I am too "lazy" to go back and find them all again...

Every one is a bit on edge in this thread ... myself included.
I do appreciate the clarification. Its just so hard watching all of this and knowing death is near and instead of bring everyone closer, her death is pushing everyone apart. Regardless of opinions everyone (me included) are forgetting the most important thing...Teri! Bottom line is, death is definite at this point, we should all remember to pray, think, chant whatever it is you (in general) do for her and hope that reports are true and she doesn't know what is going on and that her passing is a peaceful one.

jedmatters

03-26-2005, 12:38 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:49 PM

I truly hope, Jolie, your comments were aimed at me.
Why??? Because my actual degree is in legal research! Want to see it?
Just because you know how to look up stuff on Terrisfight.org, does not mean that you did any legal research.
If you ever understood legal research, it means you are to research not just your side, but all sides to verify that you are giving your client (and yourself) the right angles on the information.
But, then again, You USED to do research at the courthouse.
Why do you no longer do it? Mistake on the hiring party? Mistake on your ability, or just annoying?

Following the law is what legal researchers are trained to do. Not just pick opinions out of the side that supports their own belief. The law is clear as to who can make these decisions. Legal fight should have ended years ago: based on the LAWS.

I did legal research for my brother's law firm. Left because I was getting married and moved out of town. Did not say "Court House" -- you assumed. Thought we all agreed to keep the personal comments at a minimum - or is that it is only acceptable if they are directed at people you disagree with ??

I took the info posted at Terrisfight and researched their data at the Fl court site. Do your own research if you disagree with mine.

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 12:52 PM

I do appreciate the clarification. Its just so hard watching all of this and knowing death is near and instead of bring everyone closer, her death is pushing everyone apart. Regardless of opinions everyone (me included) are forgetting the most important thing...Teri!

Bottom line is, death is definite at this point, we should all remember to pray, think, chant whatever it is you (in general) do for her and hope that reports are true and she doesn't know what is going on and that her passing is a peaceful one.

I think you have hit on one thing we ALL can agree on ....

Crick

03-26-2005, 12:53 PM

I truly hope, Jolie, your comments were aimed at me.
Why??? Because my actual degree is in legal research! Want to see it?
Just because you know how to look up stuff on Terrisfight.org, does not mean that you did any legal research.
If you ever understood legal research, it means you are to research not just your side, but all sides to verify that you are giving your client (and yourself) the right angles on the information.
But, then again, You USED to do research at the courthouse.
Why do you no longer do it? Mistake on the hiring party? Mistake on your ability, or just annoying?

Following the law is what legal researchers are trained to do. Not just pick opinions out of the side that supports their own belief. The law is clear as to who can make these decisions. Legal fight should have ended years ago: based on the LAWS.

A bit harsh? I've stayed out of this debate other than posting one news article. While Jolie and I have been on different sides of 99% of the issues, I still have to say she is good at identifying her sources and providing links to articles posted. Whether I agree with the site or not is up to me. Jolie has explained numerous times about her condition and why she isn't working. But to question why she no longer works and to follow up with your comments are a bit out of line IMO. Seems everybody in this thread has strong views and I would hope that we would all respect each other's opinions. Now that being said, I hope Jolie recovers from her heart attack (that I have actually taken up for her.) ;)

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 01:12 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 01:14 PM

Crick; you are a true "Southern Gentleman" :smooches:

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 02:09 PM

a few points :

I posted the info about her testifying at two hearings because Tigger infered that she only came out with this info in recents weeks. I was clarifying becasue this infomation was brought out in the past - as early as 1993.

If an atheist or anyone esle were to lie under testimony - they have more to fear from a purjery charge ( ask Lil' Kim ! ) or a contempt of court finding rather than a bolt of lightening from the sky ( no documentation available .. ;) )

No one has testified Terri has a "liquid brain" - no EEG, MRI or CAT scans have been done for years - as per M.'s orders.

Terri indicated her preference by eye movements - the RN held the jello at arms length away from her and ask Terri which she wanted - then watch her eyes. She would then ask to confirm and Terri would blink - once for yes; twice for no. This was in early 1993, prior to the first petition to have the feeding tubes removed ... her condition has detereiorated since then. I didn't mean Terri was last month shouting - "Hey, give me the lime; that red stuff is the pits"
They can only charge you with perjury if they can PROVE you are lying. Beings it was just the nurse and Teri in the room kinda hard to prove it. I have heard on numerous television reports that she has a "liquid brain" or that most of her brain has turned to liquid. I watch Fox 5 in Atlanta, not sure if they have their news in transcripts or not.

People die everyday in this country in hospice and in nursing homes just as Teri is doing, what is the reason this one made it so public? Because of the riff between Micheal and her parents? Because she didn't have a living will, what about those that don't and die this way. I am just curious as to why her?

fatesfaery

03-26-2005, 02:36 PM

A google news search for Terri Schivo and cerebral cortex will return 427 results. I have read nothing that indicates that reports that 80% of her cerebral cortex is now full of spinal fluid are incorrect. According to the interviews I've seen on TV and read, her last CAT scan was in 2002. Since brain matter does not regenerate, a scan now would likely only show further damage.

cerebral cortex

The surface layer of gray tissue of the cerebrum, frequently called the gray matter. The large size of the cerebral cortex in humans distinguishes them from other animals. Specific parts of the cortex control specific functions, including sensation, voluntary muscle movement, thought, reasoning, and memory.

The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition Edited by E.D. Hirsch, Jr., Joseph F. Kett, and James Trefil. Copyright © 2002 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.

I don't see how anyone believes Terri Schivo could ever be rehabilitated through therapy......you can't improve what simply isn't there.

Cessie

03-26-2005, 02:36 PM

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/3/18/162547/578

I picked this link because he also posted a normal cat scan which is helpful if you're not used to seeing brain scans. The reason they don't need to run more recent tests is this can't improve. To put her through more tests would be useless and cruel as she would have to be moved around to get PET or MRIs.

The brain didn't liquify. It atrophied after dying and left a void. The spinal fluid then backed up to fill the void, hence the "liquid" brain.

The brain can retrain different parts of the brain when it is damaged but there has to be brain there to work with. The tiny part she has left controls reflex only.

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 02:44 PM

janelle

03-26-2005, 08:19 PM

I can answer one question. People are dying like her everyday in Hopsices because they have a fatal illness---cancer, heart failure, breathing diseases, etc, etc. But Terri has no suce fatal disease. Her heart is beating just fine, she breathes on her own, her organs to keep her alive are working to keep her alive. She is disabled as far as not being able to take care of herself and to communicate. Just about like Christopher Reeves was only he could talk and he had something Terri does not. A spouse fighting for him. Saying he would get better even when it looked hopeless. :(

YankeeMary

03-26-2005, 09:06 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-26-2005, 11:02 PM

People die everyday in this country in hospice and in nursing homes just as Teri is doing, what is the reason this one made it so public? Because of the riff between Micheal and her parents? Because she didn't have a living will, what about those that don't and die this way. I am just curious as to why her?

Maybe because it is something we can relate to - horrified that we might ever be in a similar situation ? Maybe becaue it is easier to empathize with ONE person ? In recent days I have posted threads about the school shooting in Minn ( 10 dead, several injured ), blast at a chem plant in TX ( 15 dead, at least a hundred injured ); and the situations in the Congo and Danfur ( hundreds of thousands dead and dying thru violence, disease and starvation ) .... not ONE person here has posted in these threads. Maybe as humans we prefer our tragedies on a managble level .... :(

janelle

03-26-2005, 11:59 PM

If a functioning brain is what keeps others from saying we should die then many people in care homes are in trouble. My mother has dementia. Many people in the carehome have the same thing. One woman who is there is almost at the infant state. She never opens her eyes but they feed her. She can swallow. Is not having the ability to swallow the criteria to let someone die? I thought Christopher Reeves has a feeding tube with his parallyis. He was hooked up to more machinery than Terri to stay alive. Is not being able to talk the criteria to let someone die?

I would believe her husband except for the fact he has another woman with two children. He does have a reason to see her dead no matter what others say how concerned he is about her. Sorry but that's just human nature. And he can't be married to two women at once.

Kyla Kym

03-27-2005, 02:54 AM

So soon as Terri is out of the way then her husband can write his book about this, and of course I'm sure their will be a movie deal about it, and since he is her legal guardian, does that mean he will get all the royalties?

Sorry, but after watching the videos of Terri raising her head up off the pillow to opening her eyes super wide with some struggle after being commanded to, makes me think there is more going on in her head other than water floating around.

And that guy on the news that keeps saying he seen her and she isn't in any pain right now while she is dieing is neglecting to say why she isn't in any pain. That's because she is being giving something for pain according to that nurse that was fired for taking up for Terri.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200503\NAT2005 0323c.html
He keeps saying she looks peaceful, well my grandmother looked peaceful the day she died too, because they where shooting her with morphine every 15 minutes that last day. So I have a feeling that is why Terri looks peaceful right now.

I just can't imagine how her family must be feeling right now watching their daughter starved to death!! I can't even stand to wake up in the middle of the night with my mouth dry. I just hope they have at least wet her tongue for these past 8 days.

tigger4

03-27-2005, 05:15 AM

The thing that really bugs me about all of this is how it is all over the news. Like this is the first time something like this has ever happened. Here is a link to transcripts from a CNN show yesterday. This woman fought for 15 years to have her husband's feeding tube removed after a train accident that killed one of their children and left him brain dead. Did you ever see anything about this brought up in Congress? On the national news?

Here is the part I am talking about:
Mary Martin did not.

Do you think Mike was able to die with dignity?

MARTIN: Oh, his dignity was stripped with him, but he was finally able to go and be with his god.

CHO: Four days after Joelle Rosebush's accident, Martin, her husband Mike and their three children they were in their car, Mike at the wheel when a train hit them.

MARTIN: I remember saying, is everyone OK? And the only one that responded was my eldest daughter, Mindy, saying, mom, I'm fine. Matt's crying. And I don't know about dad.

CHO: The Martin's youngest daughter, seven year old Melanie, died instantly. Her father was severely brain damaged. Mary Martin fought to have his feeding tube removed, but lost a lengthy court battle to his family. Fifteen years later, Michael Martin died of pneumonia. Martin believes she should have had the right to decide what happened to her husband, and Michael Schiavo should decide what happens to his wife. MARTIN: When two people marry, the Bible says, you leave your family and cling to your husband or wife.

CHO: She says her husband never wanted to be kept alive by machines. Look no further than Michael Martin's headstone, three dates, the day he was born, the day Mary says he died and she says the day his soul was sent to heaven.

MARTIN: Ultimately ...

CHO: You feel as though you let him down?

MARTIN: I feel to this day that I let him down.

Here is the link http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0503/26/cst.02.html

And people want to say this isn't about politics.

YankeeMary

03-27-2005, 09:35 AM

Maybe because it is something we can relate to - horrified that we might ever be in a similar situation ? Maybe becaue it is easier to empathize with ONE person ? In recent days I have posted threads about the school shooting in Minn ( 10 dead, several injured ), blast at a chem plant in TX ( 15 dead, at least a hundred injured ); and the situations in the Congo and Danfur ( hundreds of thousands dead and dying thru violence, disease and starvation ) .... not ONE person here has posted in these threads. Maybe as humans we prefer our tragedies on a managble level .... :(
I postedin it Jolie...I believe it was the 3rd or 4th post down. I also posted in one someone else posted but I do believe itwas pulled. The only fear I have is if I were ever in Teri's condition that my mom would put pics of me on the news, I think IMO thats a fate worse then death.

Donnagg123

03-27-2005, 02:08 PM

Her heart is beating just fine, she breathes on her own, her organs to keep her alive are working to keep her alive. She is disabled as far as not being able to take care of herself and to communicate.

Her "disability" goes beyond just not being able to take care of herself and communicate. She has no higher brain functioning. NONE. Even though Christopher Reeves could not move, he still had higher brain functioning. Even people with dementia have higher brain functioning. It just so happens that the part of her brain that "survived" is the part of the brain that controls our breathing, blinking etc. I will re-post what I have posted before so I do not have to repeat myself.

"First, she is not in a coma, that would be a totally different thing. She is in a permanent vegatative state. There is no documented case of a person "coming out" of a vegatative state that has been in one this long.

Second we only see a few seconds of footage on her. She is not "smiling" if you notice. She always looks like that because her skin around her jaw has wasted away and is now taut and stuck like that. She only breathes and is able to blink and such because her brain stem was not damaged. These are automatic reflexes. Think about it if we had to remember to breathe we would die. Blinking is an automatic reflex. We can control it if you think about it, but if someone brushes something close to your face you blink automatically. These functions are all controlled by the brain stem and you do not have to think to do them. If you notice closely, she really does not move her head, her mother was moving it with the pillow. She constantly looks around the room so it looks like she is following things.

Third, I saw on Larry King Live that Michael did not want video shot of her and shown because he felt it was degrading for her ot be paraded on the news in the state that she is in. He stated that she would not want that. I believe that I would want the same for my hubby. I don't think he is trying to "cover up" anything. He just doesn't want her to become like a side show freak or anything.

Forth, I saw an interview with Greta Van Susterin (sp?) and she was talking to a lady that did not know either Michael or the parents. She worked for a newspaper in Florida and went to see Terri around the year 2000-2001. She stayed with her for a good hour or so and stated that she went up and said hello to Terri and she just kept looking around the room like she always does. She stated that she asked staff how they felt about Michael and they stated he was "demanding". When asked to clarify, she stated that normally people there get a bath every other day. He insists that she get a bath every day. He insists that she be given the best possible care. The staff also stated that he visits quite often.

Another thing, for those worried about the "loads of money" that he was supposed to have wasted. She got $700,000 and he got $300,000 from the settlement. Think about this. I worked at a nursing home, and they charged residents who needed complete care (which Terri does) $4000 a month. Now if that is all they charged him for Terri, take $4000 x 12 = $48,000 per year. Times that by 14 years = $672,000. That is not including the specialists and such that he has paid to come and see her. The money gets eaten up quick believe it or not.

Another thing, some are saying well why don't he just give her up? Well why should he? She is his wife. He promised to love and care for her and it sounds like he has, why should he have to "give her up". How much better care are the parents going to be able to provide? Any money that she had from inheritance or whatever, they have used up on legal fees.

About the girlfriend, I would agree something would be odd there had he got a girlfriend the second she went into the vegatative state, but he didn't. I mean think about it, if your wife/hubby was in a vegatative state for 5,6,7 so on years. How depressing and heart breaking would that be? Maybe she started as a shoulder to cry on and it developed from there. Now some are saying that is a reason to give her up, but he promised to love her. If he did not love her, then he would say oh well and give her up.

About the starvation, some are thinking it is cruel, but it is not as cruel as you think. I am a nursing student and saw this first hand. I took care of an elderly lady that was DNR that became very ill. She was slowly dying and I could not feed her or give her anything, becuase she had swallowing problems and you cannot do anything invasive for a DNR. She could not speak/move but she was able to communicate by squeezing my hand. I made sure to check constantly if she was in pain, and guess what? Even though she was basically starving to death, she denied being in pain. I made sure and asked constantly if she was (we are allowed to give pain meds for comfort measures) and she was not. Outside of aneurism it is one of the least painful ways to die because the brain will start to emit some kind of chemical when someone is starving that dulls pain and leaves them in a euphoric type state.

Finally, I believe the parents are doing this only because they are in the denial state. Not that I blame them because that is their baby. However, I think they just are not ready to let go. It is a sad situation, because she was way too young for her to have this happen to her. However, it has never been debated that Michael is lying or anything when he said she did not want to be this way and if it was me I would want my husband to carry out my wishes for me paper or not. JMHO"

YNKYH8R

03-27-2005, 02:12 PM

fatesfaery

03-27-2005, 03:42 PM

Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer who has ruled against the Schindlers again and again is a conservative christian and republican. I've read statements made by republicans who were againts intervening and statements by democrats who were in favor of intervening.

Schiavo Judge Protected After Threats

Published: 3/26/05

CLEARWATER, Fla. (AP) - Amid the pitched legal battle over Terri Schiavo that has been fought through his court, Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer has been under the protection of armed guards, and friends say his family also is protected.

Death threats have been made against him for allowing Michael Schiavo to remove the feeding tube that has kept his 41-year-old wife alive for the past 15 years, and the Southern Baptist church that Greer belonged to for years has asked him to leave the congregation.

Greer - a conservative Christian and longtime Republican known for an easy manner - has become the public face of the judiciary in this internationally watched fight. But despite the mounting pressure, he has been steadfast in his rulings that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state and did not want to be kept alive artificially.

"There are very few people who have shown the will to stand up to raw power," said Stetson University Law Professor Michael Allen, who has studied the Schiavo case. "He's one."

"This is simply a case of people not liking this decision, and the fact that a judge is standing up to this is quite important," Allen added.

On Saturday, Greer rejected arguments by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that their daughter tried to say "I want to live" before her feeding tube was removed March 18. They argued that she said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" when asked to repeat the phrase.

Greer said that "all of the credible medical evidence this court has received over the last five years" suggests Schiavo's behavior is not a product of cognitive awareness. Doctors have said Schiavo's past utterances were involuntary moans consistent with someone in a vegetative state.

When informed of Greer's rejection, Bob Schindler reacted with somber sarcasm: "He did? Great surprise."

It was Greer who first ruled that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and would not want to be kept alive artificially. Three times he has ordered the feeding tube be removed, as requested by Michael Schiavo, and his rulings have consistently been upheld in appeals filed by the Schindlers.

Greer, 63, also stood up to congressional efforts to intervene in the case, rejecting an attempt by the House of Representatives to subpoena Terry Schiavo as a means to force the reinsertion of her feeding tube. Since then, other judges have followed in refusing to act under a newly crafted federal law allowing them to consider the case.

Greer, a former county commissioner, became a judge in 1992. He was recently re-elected to a six-year term, but has announced that he will retire once that term is up.

While in legal circles he is garnering acclaim for his consistent application of Florida law in the case, there has been a price.

Protesters now show up at his Clearwater home. The FBI arrested a North Carolina man it said placed a $50,000 bounty on the head of a judge in the case, although officials didn't name the judge.

This past week, he parted ways with his Southern Baptist church, which had advocated keeping Terri Schiavo alive, after his pastor suggested it would be better if he left.

"You must know that in all likelihood it is this case which will define your career and this case that you will remember in the waning days of life," Calvary Baptist Pastor William Rice wrote to Greer in a letter than later became public. "I hope you can find a way to side with the angels and become an answer to the prayers of thousands."

Greer could not be reached for comment because of the frequent hearings on the Schiavo case, but longtime friend Mary Repper said she recently spoke with him and he sounds "worn out" by the case that has been on his docket for more than seven years.

"It's been going on so long and it's reached its fevered pitch," Repper said. "It's gotten so angry and so hostile, but he's still hanging in there."

Repper said Greer has taken comfort in being consistently upheld by higher courts, but his split with his church has been a blow.

"The people in that church should be ashamed of themselves, to demonize George and to ask him to leave for doing his job, for upholding the law," she said. "To me, that was the most offensive thing that has happened so far."

Greer has been asked to step down from the case five times and has refused.

Attorney Pat Anderson, who had represented the Schindlers for three years of the court fight, filed three motions for recusal but said she could not get Greer to budge.

"A lawyer told me when I first got involved in this case that he (Greer) does not have a reverse on his transmission," Anderson said. "He apparently is too prideful to say 'I made a mistake. I made a mistake because I didn't have all the information and I am sorry I made a mistake.'"

YankeeMary

03-27-2005, 04:57 PM

"The people in that church should be ashamed of themselves, to demonize George and to ask him to leave for doing his job, for upholding the law," she said. "To me, that was the most offensive thing that has happened so far."

I am in total agreement with her. Shame on that Church. A church should never ever "ask" anyone to leave, I know my Jesus never would. I am ashamed of them. When in CHurch you are there for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to WORSHIP THE LORD, differences should never ever affect PRAISING THE LORD. So sad it has come to this, especially since the reason her parents are claiming she wants to be kept alive due to her religion. Just a sad sad day that people have the Church turn their backs on someone when they need prayers now, more then ever.

Does anyone know what religion Micheal is? Is he catholic also?

queenangie

03-27-2005, 05:02 PM

One thing that did concern me: the family complains her mouth and lips are very dry.

She should be getting good mouth care and there are appropriate medical products available for mouth care. There is also chapstick or vaseline for her mouth.

Hospice should allready know and do these things as a part of quality care.

fatesfaery

03-27-2005, 08:14 PM

I am in total agreement with her. Shame on that Church. A church should never ever "ask" anyone to leave, I know my Jesus never would. I am ashamed of them. When in CHurch you are there for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to WORSHIP THE LORD, differences should never ever affect PRAISING THE LORD. So sad it has come to this, especially since the reason her parents are claiming she wants to be kept alive due to her religion. Just a sad sad day that people have the Church turn their backs on someone when they need prayers now, more then ever.

Does anyone know what religion Micheal is? Is he catholic also?

I couldn' agree more. I was shocked when I read he'd been asked to leave his church. I grew up a southern baptist and never belonged to a church where something like that would happen.

I don't remember where I read it, but did read that Michael Schiavo was rasied in the Lutheran church.

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 08:34 PM

Network news 'against Terri'
Study by media watchdog group shows TV coverage slanting toward pro-death
March 26, 2005
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

A study by a media watchdog group indicates television stories of the life-and-death battle of Terri Schiavo are slanted against the brain-injured woman.

The Media Research Center found the three broadcast network evening newscasts "have tilted their recent coverage of the Terri Schiavo case in ways that bolster her husband Michael's arguments that the severely disabled woman is in an irreversible vegetative state and had clearly expressed a desire to die."

It says network reporters "have attempted to debunk arguments made by her parents – namely that some doctors believe she could be helped and that Mrs. Schiavo, a Catholic, would not want her feeding tube disconnected."

MRC examined 31 evening newscasts from Thursday, March 17, the day before her feeding tube was removed, through Monday, March 21.

A majority of soundbites, 59 percent, repudiated Congress for acting to permit Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, to bring their case to federal courts.

Nearly all of the supportive comments came from members of Congress such as Rep. Tom DeLay, R-Texas; but condemnations came not only from husband Michael Schiavo and Democrats, but from reporters themselves.

"Whatever your beliefs," ABC's Jake Tapper commented on Friday, "Terri Schiavo and her family deserved better than the way Congress worked this week."

Tapper also rejected the value of videotapes showing Terri Schiavo apparently responding: "In some ways, these tapes are like psychological inkblot tests. You see in them what you want."

On Monday's CBS Evening News, reporter Elizabeth Kaledin argued that "this is exactly the kind of scenario doctors are worried about. It's sad enough that this case had to play out in the courts, but to get politics involved now, I think they would say, is just bad medicine."

ABC's Peter Jennings dismissed one of the Schindlers' worries: "They also say that she will die a painful death, though there does not seem to be any support for that argument in the medical community."

NBC showed Dr. Robert Cranford, who has examined Mrs. Schiavo, saying in spite of how she appears on videotape, "she's as unconscious as someone who is dead."

The MRC notes "none of the broadcast network stories showed even one dissenting expert. But [Fox News Channel's] Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes on Monday interviewed Dr. William Hammesfahr, a neurologist who spent 10 hours observing Terri Schiavo. Hammesfahr said she is "completely aware and conscious and responsive ... like a child with cerebral palsy."

The study also shows 60 percent of soundbites, including reporter comments, "presented Michael Schiavo's case that Terry Schiavo should die, compared with just 40 percent offering the counter-arguments of her parents. Not a single story was devoted to a skeptical look at Schiavo and whether he was acting in his wife's best interests, but all three networks ran stories rejecting [Terri's parents'] view that their daughter could possibly be helped."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43494

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:03 PM

Terri's money used to pay for starvation death
Once well-provided for, disabled woman now dependent on taxpayers
March 26, 2005
By Sarah Foster
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

When a jury awarded brain-disabled Terri Schindler-Schiavo over $1 million in a medical malpractice suit against her two physicians in 1992, it did so believing the money would be used to pay for the brain-injured woman's long-term care and rehabilitation.

But instead of the therapy he promised he'd provide for Terri, her estranged husband, Michael Schiavo, 41, who is also her legal guardian, used most of the money to pay attorneys to arrange his wife's death *and he did this with full court approval.

The money awarded Terri was placed in a trust fund and a judge approved all expenditures * from pedicures to attorney bills. The latter has skyrocketed over the years, as Terri's parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, battled their son-in-law in the Florida courts over their daughter's right to live.

By June 2001, the trust fund money had dwindled to $350,000. Today, just $40,000 to $50,000 remains.

Deborah Bushnell, who has represented Schiavo since 1993 in a series of legal skirmishes with the Schindlers, this month told Associated Press she has been paid $80,309 since becoming involved in the case. "Right to die" advocate and attorney George Felos, who was surreptitiously hired by Schiavo in 1997 to win court approval for Terri's death by removing her feeding tube, has been paid $348,434, according to Bushnell. Informed sources say an additional $50,000 should be added, to include legal costs that Bushnell did not include in the figure she gave.

Four years ago the St. Petersburg Times reported that records showed Felos was paid more than $200,000 between 1997 and June 2001, while Bushnell netted $27,000 between 1993 and June 2001 – which means she has been paid over $50,000 in just four years. Schiavo, too, was reimbursed $6,000 for legal costs.

The fees include not only standard attorney services, such as preparing briefs and taking depositions, but thousands of dollars for “dealing with the media,” records show. The payoff has been the continuous slanting of news stories in newspapers and on television of the battle over Terri’s life, beginning after the trial in 2000.

Both attorneys claim they have not been paid since 2002, but Felos recently admitted to the St. Petersburg Times that the American Civil Liberties Union is helping underwrite Schiavo's litigation.

Spending Terri's money in litigation is highly unusual, according to Pat Anderson, who represented the Schindlers in their fight with Schiavo from 2001 through most of 2004.

Most guardianships don't prosecute or defend legal actions, Anderson told WorldNetDaily. "They just go along, uneventfully, and the guardian reports to the court once a year. The guardian pays doctor bills, arranges for medical care, buys baseball game tickets, pays for haircuts and toenail clippings, nothing controversial."

Anderson said court approval is required to pay attorney fees out of a guardianship estate, but because generally the fees are modest, a guardianship attorney, such as Bushnell, only applies once a year. "Obviously, in order to have a successful guardianship practice, an attorney must have a lot of guardianships * or a major lawsuit," she noted.

Terri's account balance had dropped to about $100,000 by 2002, at which time a strategy was devised to qualify her for Medicaid, the federal-state health insurance program for the indigent and disabled.

In situations like this, after assets are sold the remaining money goes into trust and can only be used for certain specified purposes, Anderson said. Upon the patient's death any remaining money goes to the government. In exchange, the government extends Medicaid benefits.

Questionable circumstances

Terri suffered major trauma in Feb. 1990 when, at the age of 26, she collapsed under questionable circumstances in the St. Petersburg, Fla., apartment she shared with her husband. For reasons never satisfactorily explained, oxygen to her brain was cut off for about eight minutes, leaving her unable to talk and dependent on a feeding tube through her abdomen into her stomach for food and hydration.

Medical reports that surfaced in 2002 strongly indicate Terri was a victim of beating and strangulation, but at the time of her collapse her parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, never considered such a possibility and agreed to Michael being named as guardian. They did not realize that this would give him total control over all aspects of her life *- where she lived, what medical treatment she received, who could visit her.

Two years following their daughter's collapse, in the hope of getting funding for her long-term care, the Schindlers endorsed Schiavo bringing a medical malpractice suit against Terri's two gynecologists for negligence.

At the trial in Nov. 1992, Schiavo's lawyers argued that Terri's collapse was caused by a potassium imbalance, brought on through an "eating disorder," specifically, bulimia. Though there was never any evidence she was bulimic, the jury held the doctors responsible for not diagnosing that condition and awarded $1.4 million dollars to Terri for her care and rehabilitation and $630,000 to her husband for "loss of spouse."

After the attorneys had taken their cut of nearly 50 percent, Terri was left with over $750,000, and Schiavo had $300,000 to spend as he wished. He used his award money to pay for training to be a nurse, something he had promised the jury he'd do so he could take care of Terri personally.

He also bought a gold Honda Acura.

A trust fund for the disabled woman was established at a local bank, with the money invested in blue chip stocks, such as Coca-Cola, Walt Disney and Proctor & Gamble, corporate and U.S. Treasury bonds, and a money market account.

In April 1993, Terri's money was valued at $776,254. According to a financial planner, it's been estimated that if the principle had not been touched, the fund during the mid- to late 1990s would have grown and at the same time generated an annual income of at least $70,000. This would easily have paid for her care in the finest nursing home in Florida, including rehabilitation.

However, under Florida law, if Terri should die, Schiavo as spouse and guardian stood to inherit her entire trust fund.

No sooner was Terri's money in the bank than Schiavo refused to begin the long-awaited rehabilitation program, directed the nursing home where she lived not to give her antibiotics for various infections and had a "do not resuscitate" order attached to her chart. He later testified that doctors had advised him that her condition was hopeless and if she became ill he should "let her die."

As his wife's legal guardian, Schiavo is permitted to use her money, but only if what he spends it on is in her "best interests." He has said he is trying to do that by following her wishes not to be kept alive "artificially," and denies that his decision to remove her feeding tube has anything to do with the fact that he is the beneficiary of her estate.

"This suit was brought on her behalf to implement her wishes," said attorney Felos.

The Schindlers tried to wrest the guardianship from their son-in-law but were unsuccessful, and the two sides began their battle in the courts of Florida, which in time escalated into what some observers consider the most important euthanasia litigation in history. It was the first case in which family members fought each other over whether a patient in a so-called "persistent vegetative state," but otherwise in good health, should have a feeding tube removed so he or she would starve to death.

[i](continues ....)[i]

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:06 PM

Follow the money

In any litigation a paper trail is created as the parties file documents and judges issue orders. A second trail,* a money trail – is created by attorneys when they file itemized fee petitions to the court to recoup their costs. Fee petitions may include details about phone calls – when they were made, to whom, what was talked about and how long each call lasted. They show how much was paid to expert witnesses, how much time was spent on research, preparing testimony and affidavits, taking depositions and appearing in court.

They also give information about the various schemes and strategies being devised. Reading a fee petition is like following the marks an explorer cuts on trees to show the way through a forest.

This is certainly the case in the Schiavo litigation, and explains why Bushnell and Schiavo had the petitions sealed from the public and the Schindlers following the trial in 2000.

Bushnell charged $165 an hour for the first few years, but later raised that to $185 an hour.

For the first year of guardianship litigation * from Sept. 21, 1993, to Sept. 16, 1994, Bushnell billed $5,622 (for 35 hours), plus $1.75 for two faxes * one from attorney Steve Nilson, of an amended deposition; one from Gyneth Stanley, attorney for the guardian of the property of Theresa Marie Schiavo (the bank).

The high figure was due to the courtroom battle between Schiavo and the Schindlers, who were desperately attempting to oust their son-in-law from his entrenched position as "guardian of the person of Theresa Marie Schiavo."

Costs included a "telephone conference with Steve Nilson regarding issues of do not resuscitate and no treatment and timing to raise issues" ($82.50); "Telephone Conference with Mike Schiavo re. do not treat decision" ($49.50); and "Telephone Conference with Michael Schiavo regarding problem with nursing home complaining" ($49.50).

While Schiavo could pay Bushnell with money from his wife's trust fund, the Schindlers had few funds at their disposal and their attorneys over the years have worked for low fees or on a pro bono * for the (public) good * basis, that is, they've provided services for free.

"Marital debts"

Another cost borne by Terri's estate * unrelated to the guardianship litigation * came in late 1994 when Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge Thomas Pinick allowed Schiavo to take nearly=green] $10,000 from the fund to pay her "share" of a bank loan they had co-signed the summer before her collapse.

According to records obtained by WND, the couple borrowed $11,500, in June 1989, to pay some "marital debts." But with Terri incapacitated and not working, Schiavo fell behind on the payments and the debt mushroomed. A payment plan was negotiated, with a total owed of over $18,000. Rather than use his own resources and award money, Schiavo persuaded the court to reimburse him $3,525 from her trust fund for one-half the monthly payments he had already made on his wife's share of the note and to pay the bank $5,772.17 for her half of the final payment due.

Pinick signed the order authorizing payment on Dec. 8, 1994, in time for Christmas.

A deadly agenda

At first, Schiavo was clearly hoping that his wife would become ill and he could "let her die" as several doctors had advised him. The more deadly scheme to euthanize her by starvation was in the talking stages by late 1995 * three years before it was formalized in the courts in 1998, according to the fee petitions.

Bushnell contacted Felos by phone on Dec. 13, 1995, asking for "assistance with analysis of life-prolonging procedures statute ..." They talked half-an-hour, at a cost to Terri's trust fund of $82.50.

In 1996, Bushnell obtained permission from Judge Pinick to seal the annual financial reports from Terri's parents. She also asked him to deny the Schindlers copies of the annual reports on Terri's care and information about her medical condition, but Pinick didn't go that far. He ruled that the parents were to be notified of any change in Terri's condition and that treatment would have to be given for any illness for at least five days.

In February 1997, she phoned Schiavo "re. associating George Felos to handle removal of life support issue." (cost to Terri: $54)

On March 5, 1997, Schiavo signed a contract with Felos "to represent him in connection with the withdrawal and/or refusal of medical treatment ..." at the rate of $195 an hour, with costs to be "borne by the client." There was no mention of starving Terri to death by removing her feeding tube. The agreement was contingent on approval of the Pinellas County Probate Court.

In fact, the client paid nothing: as usual, all costs would be repaid out of Terri's trust fund.

In mid-April, Bushnell petitioned the court in Schiavo's name for permission to employ and pay George Felos "for representation in connection with the issue of withdrawal and/or refusal of medical treatment", at the rate of $195 an hour. Evidently everyone associated with the case except the Schindlers understood that "medical treatment" included providing food and water through a feeding tube.

With the petition Bushnell submitted a formal order she'd prepared for Judge Mark Shames to sign, authorizing Felos being hired. At this point she hit a temporary roadblock: the order signed by Judge Thomas Pinick a year earlier that Terri's parents were to be notified in case there was a change in her medical condition. Shames returned Bushnell's prepared order stamped NOT SIGNED, with a note handwritten on it that Terri's parents needed to be told about this.

"Gently and informally"

Bushnell shot back a response, assuring Shames that Schiavo was "aware" of the "difficult issues" in the case and urging he sign the order even though the Schindlers hadn't been notified and wouldn't be for a while.

"It is anticipated that the parents will initially be approached gently and informally by Attorney Felos regarding this issue, that Hospice will be involved, and that counseling will be provided to the guardian and the parents to assist with the decision-making process. ...

"Attorney Felos, the guardian, and I feel that the receipt of a petition for payment of attorney fees regarding this issue would not be the best and kindest way for the ward's parents to learn that this issue is being considered," Bushnell explained.

No reason was given as to why the local hospice was to be brought into the action, but that became obvious in April 2000 when Schiavo and Felos had Terri removed surreptitiously and without prior court approval from the nursing home where she'd lived since 1994 and relocated at the Woodside Hospice, a facility of the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, of which Felos had been a board member since 1996 * a fact he did not disclose.

After receiving her assurances that the Schindlers would be notified eventually, Shames signed the order on May 14. Felos waited over three months to inform the Schindlers – "kindly and informally" – of Schiavo's plans.

Word came in a casual letter sent by regular post, and at first Robert Schindler couldn't believe what he was reading.

Sucker-punched!

Dated August 20, 1997, the letter was from an attorney he'd never heard of, telling them in an offhand way that he'd been hired by their son-in-law to arrange the Terri's death. Worse * it appeared a court had approved the idea without so much as a hearing. "I felt sick at my stomach," Schindler told WND. "I couldn't believe it. It was like being sucker punched right in the gut. I never, ever thought Michael would go that far."

"Dear Mr. and Mrs. Schindler," the letter began.

"The court in your daughter's guardianship, ... has authorized the guardian to employ me in connection with the withdrawal and/or refusal of medical treatment for your daughter Theresa. I have handled many cases exploring the appropriateness of terminating life-sustaining medical treatment and have also worked in the past as a Hospice patient volunteer. I know first hand how difficult it is making such determinations. ..."

Nothing definite was decided the Schindlers were told; the writer was simply "obtaining information" about Terri's treatment and prognosis for recovery and what her wishes might be if she could "express herself." They were advised to contact the Hospice of the Florida Suncoast, a network of hospice facilities based in Largo, Fla., for patients terminally ill from a disease and beyond hope of recovery.

"Whatever the end point of this process may be, you may find it a great benefit talking or meeting with a Hospice professional. I have been told that Sandy Sunter, with Hospice, is aware of Theresa's case. I know Sandy to be highly skilled as well as deeply compassionate."

The letter was signed "George Felos."

Schindler wasn't taken in for a minute. It was clear a "final determination" had been made, with Terri's death as the "end point." When he'd recovered from the initial shock he phoned Felos to see if there wasn't "a bit of wiggle room." Couldn't something be worked out that would allow Terri to live? Was Schiavo so determined to see his wife dead that he'd consider no alternative? Felos said matters had gone too far and there could be no turning back. That was news to Schindler.

Sandra Sunter, the woman Felos suggested as a contact at Hospice, is a licensed mental health counselor (LMHC). Schindler figured he didn't need a counselor *he needed an attorney.

(continues....)

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:09 PM

No deep pocket

Unlike Schiavo, Terri's dad didn't have a deep pocket to dip into for legal fees, but an attorney he knew put him in touch with Pamela Campbell, a guardianship attorney, who agreed to take the case on a pro bono basis.

Felos didn't bill for services until after the trial that was held in Jan. 2000; then he presented a bill for nearly $75,000.

Although Bushnell billed for the initial phone call in 1995, Felos himself did not charge for advice he might have provided prior to Mar. 5, 1997, when Schiavo actually met with him and they signed a contract. To cover a few pre-trial costs, Bushnell obtained court approval for an advance to Felos of $7,500. By the time the trial was completed the sum total of fees and costs was $81,760.17 for the period from Mar. 5, 1997 to Jan. 28, 2000.

This included payments to paralegals, researchers, and expert witnesses. Dr. Victor Gambone, Terri's physician, who certified her as being PVS, a condition from which he said she could never recover, received $1,250 as an expert witness; while Dr. James Barnhill, a Florida neurologist, received $4,200 for testifying her brain was gone and had been replaced with spinal fluid.

Despite later testimony and statements from dozens of other doctors, including neurologists, the label PVS has stuck, as has the depiction of Terri not having a brain.

When the $7,500[/coor] advance was deducted, the firm of Felos and Felos received [color=green]$74,230. Some of the work done by the firm was done by Felos' wife and law partner, Constance Felos. The couple has since divorced.

And what did Felos do to earn that money?

The initial conference with Schiavo lasted 80 minutes ($260); on Aug. 18, 1997, he reviewed the file and drafted letters to doctors and the "sucker-punch" letter to the Schindlers: 90 minutes ($292.50); talked to Bob Schindler on Aug. 26, after he'd received the letter: 35 minutes ($113.75).

Every minute, every hour the clock was ticking on Terri and the tab was growing exponentially. The principle of her estate was being depleted quicker than it could generate revenue. But with the financial report closed to the parents, the Schindlers had no idea how much was being spent.

After the trial, Felos billed on a more regular basis every few months, with a particularly large invoice for the two months following the trial, much of it for "dealing with the media."

During the trial the Schindlers began to realize that this was not going to be a slam-dunk. They had assumed that no judge would allow Terri's feeding tube to be removed. "The whole thing was ludicrous," said Schindler, recalling his feelings before the trial. "I actually believed it would be thrown out of court. Even when the trial started I thought Greer would just throw it out. Everything seemed like a grade B or grade C movie * everything seemed so weak that they were presenting to the court. I just didn't see how that could ever happen."

But it did, and on Feb. 11, 2000, Greer signed an eight-page order directing the removal of Terri's feeding tube.

The Schindlers, stunned, wondered how they could continue the fight lacking the necessary financial resources. Then, in a sudden groundswell of support, a small group of dedicated pro-life activists cobbled together a grassroots campaign. Doctors, too, came forward to testify that Terri was not PVS, but they spoke too late. The order had been signed. Lawyers appeared, who agreed to carry the case to the appeal court.

A computer guru volunteered his services, and at his own expense developed a website, serving as webmaster until mid-2003, at no cost to the Schindlers.

Public opinion ran high in favor of the parents, against a husband who wanted her out of the way. Schiavo may have won in the trial court, but he was losing in the court of public opinion. Felos began a counter-campaign of his own, but not for free.

Massaging the media

In June 2000, Felos billed $11,700 for attorney time for the two-month period from Jan. 28 to Mar. 28, with many of the items being essentially damage control measures. These include hours spent with Schiavo doing media interviews, "calls to and from client regarding how to obtain balanced media coverage, media interviews," "numerous calls to and from media representatives and interviews", a call from Schiavo regarding radio talk show and libel issues," and so on.

One of the overseers in the County Clerk's office, Ms. Story, balked at approving the invoice because of its many media related items. Story said the court wanted to know why the expenditure of attorney time dealing with the media was of any benefit to Terri.

Felos explained in a letter to Judge Greer that the Schindlers had initiated a "broad-based media campaign," and it was necessary to "correct inaccuracies and falsehoods in respondents' media portrayal of the case." Attacks against Schiavo were "strident," and "he has directly been called a 'murderer' on television and radio."

He said Schiavo did not feel qualified to answer the charges, and counted on him to present his cause to the media. "A client may be concerned about misspeaking in front of the media or even, through a misstatement, making statements which could be construed as an admission against interest in the case, thus damaging the cause of action of the Ward."

Felos was particularly chagrined at a letter of Schindler's, posted on the website, that included some "extremely inflammatory language, such as 'Terri has been sentenced to death. We do not understand how in a civilized society, Terri's life was even put on trial.'"

Schiavo was being "unfairly maligned and held up to public ridicule," and as guardian should have "the reasonable right, through counsel, to counter such an attack. Otherwise, persons may be reluctant to act as guardians, and may be very reluctant to undertake legal action to enforce the Ward's rights if the guardian concludes that his or her reputation or livelihood cannot be defended in the proceeding."

As with every request Felos made during the six years he presided over the case, Greer agreed and approved the billing, including the charges for "dealing with the media."

For Schiavo and Felos it was money well spent. From that time onward, the mainstream media * local and national * got the message and have walked lockstep with Felos and Schiavo, in particular the Associated Press, the St. Petersburg Times, and the New York Times. Terri continues to be described as being in a persistent vegetative state, when dozens of doctors and therapists say otherwise; the case is characterized as a "right to die" case, when a more accurate appellation is "right to live"; and the reason given for removal of her feeding tube is "so she can die."

Michael Schiavo's long-term adulterous relationship with another woman, with whom he has had two children, is downplayed or ignored. Also ignored is the once-sizable inheritance he stood to gain from his legal wife's death. Instead, he is portrayed as a loving husband desperately trying to carry out Terri’s wishes despite her parents, who stubbornly refuse to "let her go."

Bobby Schindler, one of Terri’s two siblings, told WND he is amazed at the strength and determination of the opposition against his parents and Terri by the courts, media, and government. "I don’t get it," he said. “An awful lot of people want my sister dead, and they’ve spent a lot of money killing her. What I can’t figure out is why."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43510

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:15 PM

Terri Schiavo Allowed to Receive Communion
Mar 27, 8:57 PM (ET)
By MIKE SCHNEIDER

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - With their hopes fading and legal options exhausted, Terri Schiavo's family appeared quietly resigned Sunday to watching her die as they arranged for the severely brain-damaged woman to receive Easter communion on her ninth day without food or water.

Outside the hospice where Schiavo is being cared for, protesters were not as calm. Five were arrested, and about a half-dozen people in wheelchairs got out of them and lay in the driveway, shouting "We're not dead yet!"

Schiavo's husband, who a day earlier denied a request from his wife's parents that she be given communion, granted permission Sunday to offer the sacrament.

The Rev. Thaddeus Malanowski said he gave Schiavo a drop of wine on her tongue but could not give her a fleck of bread because her tongue was dry.

The priest's announcement drew applause and cheers from the crowd, which spent most of the day heckling police and protesting loudly. The noise prompted Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, to come out and ask protesters to tone down their behavior. "We are not going to solve the problem today by getting arrested," he told the restless crowd. "We can change laws, but we are not going to change them today ... You are not speaking for our family."

Schiavo's husband and parents have battled for years over whether the 41-year-old woman wanted to live or die. The two sides have given differing opinions of her status. Her parents have said she is declining rapidly and in her last hours. George Felos, an attorney for Schiavo's husband, Michael, argued Saturday that her condition is not yet that grave.

A spokesman for the Schindlers denied a report from David Gibbs III, their lead lawyer, who told CBS's "Face the Nation" Sunday that Schiavo has "passed where physically she would be able to recover."

That statement "was not made with the family's knowledge. In the family's opinion, that is absolutely not true," family spokesman Randall Terry told reporters.

Felos declined to comment on Schiavo's condition.

At Michael Schiavo's home in Clearwater, about three dozen protesters dropped roses and Easter lilies on his lawn in a peaceful demonstration. His fiancee's brother picked up the flowers and handed them to a bystander to take away.

Doctors have said Terri Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the tube being removed March 18. She relied on the tube for 15 years after suffering catastrophic brain damage when her heart stopped beating and oxygen was cut off to her brain.

Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have maintained their daughter is not in a persistent vegetative state as court-appointed doctors have determined. Michael Schiavo has said his wife told him that she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

The Schindlers said they would stop asking courts to intervene after the Florida Supreme Court rejected their most recent appeal Saturday. The parents were rebuffed repeatedly by federal courts after Congress passed an extraordinary law last weekend allowing the case to be heard by federal judges.

About 100 protesters gathered at the hospice Sunday, ignoring the Schindlers' request that they spend Easter Sunday with their families. Bob Schindler told reporters the protesters were welcome back on Monday. "People are getting emotional," said the Rev. Patrick Mahoney of the Washington-based Christian Defense Coalition. "A woman is starving to death, but we want to focus on Terri, not on us." Mahoney said he planned to ask congressional leaders Monday to act to keep Schiavo alive.

Police have arrested 38 people in the past week, most for trying to bring Schiavo water.

At St. Michael the Archangel Catholic Church in Clearwater, Father Ted Costello scrupulously avoided mentioning the Schiavo case in Easter Mass. Parishioner Bill Youmans said that was a good thing. "I don't think that's got anything to do with Easter," the 76-year-old retiree from Michigan said. "I thought the church's teaching is not to take extraordinary measures to perpetuate life. ... I think all those people bleating in Schiavo's front yard give Jesus a bad name."

But down the road at Faith Lutheran Church in Dunedin, the Rev. Peter Kolb thought Schiavo's story was appropriate for an Easter sermon. "Imagine the young woman that's been trapped in a hospice for 15 years," he told his flock, without actually mentioning Schiavo's name. "One day we're all going to go through the valley. ... Some day, somehow, each of us are going to face that last enemy."

Supporters of the Schindlers continued their demands Sunday for Gov. Jeb Bush to intervene. "Terri is in effect on death row. ... We're asking the governor for a stay of execution on Easter Sunday," said Larry Klayman, founder of the conservative legal group Judicial Watch.

Bush told CNN on Sunday that he has done all he can in the case, as he has said for several days. "I cannot violate a court order," he said. "I don't have powers from the United States Constitution or, for that matter, from the Florida Constitution, that would allow me to intervene after a decision has been made."

Schindler attorney Gibbs told CBS the governor had done all he could to help the family. "He was legally blocked," Gibbs said, calling Bush "a real friend to the Schindler family."

At least two more appeals were pending by the state and Bush, but those challenges were before the state 2nd District Court of Appeal, which has rebuffed the governor's previous efforts in the case. It was unclear when the court would rule.

---

Associated Press writers Mark Long, Vickie Chachere, Fred Goodall and Allen Breed contributed to this report.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050328/D893M91O0.html

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:19 PM

[b]Battle over corpse already underway [/i]
Husband wants Terri cremated, parents look for burial
RICHARD LUSCOMBE
IN PINELLAS PARK, FLORIDA [/i]

THE legal fight to keep brain-damaged Terri Schiavo alive appeared to be over last night, but a new row erupted between her husband and her parents over what will happen to her body after she dies.

Michael Schiavo, who had his wife’s feeding tube removed by court order ten days ago, has made arrangements for her to be cremated and her ashes interred in his family’s plot in Pennsylvania.

But Bob and Mary Schindler want their daughter to have a Roman Catholic funeral service and to be buried near their home in Clearwater, Florida. They are also furious that her husband denied her an Easter communion.

The latest animosity in the bitterly contested right-to-die case emerged as Mrs Schiavo, 41, yesterday entered her ninth full day without food or water at a hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida. Doctors have said she could survive for up to two weeks.

Michael Schiavo’s lawyer, George Felos, said a judge had already backed the cremation plan. "My client will scrupulously follow the court order," he said. "Her ashes will be interred in the Schiavo family plot in Pennsylvania, where Terri and Michael grew up."

Brother Paul O’Donnell, the Schindlers’ spiritual adviser, said it was a further assault by Mr Schiavo on his wife’s rights as a Catholic after the rejection of her parents’ communion request. "She has been denied the precious body and blood of Christ in violation of her religious freedom," he said.

Mrs Schiavo’s brother, Bobby, said he had advised his parents not to make any further visits to the hospice because of her condition. "My mother has to experience her daughter dying in this fashion," he said. "It’s not painless and it’s not peaceful."

Mr Schiavo, backed by several court judgments during a 12-year legal campaign, has always insisted his wife had once told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. His doctors say she is in a persistent vegetative state, leaving her awake but unable to swallow or talk.

Her parents say she could improve but that her husband has denied her treatment, despite winning a malpractice pay-out of more than $1 million for her care and rehabilitation in 1992. Mr Schiavo, who has two children with a woman he met ten years ago, has refused to surrender his status as his wife’s legal guardian.

Congress stepped into the row last week when President George Bush signed into law a bill that sent the case for federal court review. But the Schindlers’ efforts to have the feeding tube restored have been thwarted by a succession of state and federal judges and the US Supreme Court.

The latest setback came late on Saturday when the Florida Supreme Court rejected a claim that Mrs Schiavo had started to speak the words "I want to live" when she was told the tube was to come out.

Outside the hospice yesterday, about 30 protesters staged an Easter Sunday service. Three of them, including a pastor from a pro-life Christian group, were arrested as they tried to enter the hospice with bread and wine to administer communion to Mrs Schiavo.

Last night, half a dozen people in wheelchairs got out and lay in the hospice’s driveway, shouting: "We’re not dead yet." Police were loudly heckled, prompting Bobby Schindler to come out and ask protesters to tone down their behaviour. He told them: "You are not speaking for our family."

The Schindlers have pinned their last hopes on Florida’s governor, Jeb Bush, who, they say, has the authority to take Terri into the state’s protection.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=327962005

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:44 PM

Political corruption alleged in Schiavo case
Criminal probes reportedly shut down despite investigators' concerns
March 26, 2005
By Diana Lynne
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com [/i]

As Terri Schiavo enters what are thought to be her last hours of life, allegations of political corruption and obstruction of justice on the part of state officials raise questions as to whether the brain-injured woman's court-ordered death by starvation might serve to cover up crimes committed against her.

Criminal probes launched by two Florida agencies looking into allegations the incapacitated woman was abused, neglected and exploited were shut down, despite investigators' concerns.

One investigation took place at the Department of Children and Families, or DCF, in late 2001. The other was conducted by agents with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, or FDLE, in August 2003.

Both agencies are mandated by Florida Statutes 415 and 825 to detect and correct the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of the elderly or disabled adults.

The individual whose 700-page anonymous complaint prompted the DCF to conduct a 60-day investigation into numerous alleged violations of state statutes protecting disabled and incapacitated people tells WND the DCF investigator gave him the impression he thought the allegations were credible and he was sorry the probe got aborted by his superiors.

The complainant, who wishes to remain unnamed, tells WND he spent numerous hours over a period of several weeks working with the DCF adult protective services investigator after filing his complaint in November 2001.

"It was clear to me that he found credibility in most, if not all, the charges," the complainant said of the investigator.

But when the investigator turned his report in to his superiors, he reportedly hit a brick wall. "It went up the ladder. It crashed. The report findings were marked 'Unfounded but With Recommendations,'" the complainant recalls the investigator telling him.

When the complainant expressed disbelief at the outcome and asked what "with recommendations" meant, he says the investigator became tight-lipped. "I've said too much. All I can say is keep up the fight," the investigator said.

At the time, DCF attorney Frank Nagatani publicly declared: "DCF is not going to get involved [in the Terri Schiavo case] until this is out of the court."

Florida Department of State Election records show Nagatani contributed to the 1998 election campaign of 6th Judicial Circuit Court Judge George Greer, the primary adjudicator in the Terri Schiavo case. While no records exist detailing the amount of Nagatani's total contribution, according to Greer's reported campaign expenditures, Nagatani was paid $18.75 on Aug. 11, 1998 for a "partial contribution refund."

WorldNetDaily reported Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, also donated to Greer's re-election campaign. The $250 contribution was made by Felos' law firm, Felos & Felos, on May 7, 2004 – one day after Pinellas County Circuit Court Judge Douglas Baird ruled "Terri's Law" unconstitutional.

Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have been locked in a 7-year court battle with her estranged husband, Michael Schiavo, over her fate.

Michael Schiavo maintains he's carrying out Terri's wishes not to be kept alive artificially. "My aim is to carry out Terri's wishes," Schiavo told WND. "If Terri would even know that I had somebody taking care of her bodily functions, she'd kill us all in a heartbeat. She'd be so angry."

Terri is not hooked up to any life-support machines, but requires the feeding tube for nourishment. Doctors removed it March 18 per Greer's court order, after a flurry of eleventh-hour appeals by the Schindlers failed.

In February 2000, Greer ruled that statements Terri allegedly made to Michael Schiavo, his brother and his brother's wife a year before her injury that she didn't want to be kept alive artificially were "clear and confincing evidence" of her wishes.

The Schindlers reject their daughter, a devout Roman Catholic, would have made such statements.

After eight days of dehydration and starvation, Terri Schiavo is "still responsive" but is "weakening," according to Bob Schindler. "She's down to her last hours. Something has to be done and has to be done quick," he told reporters outside the hospice where Terri resides.

Michael Schiavo's brother, Brian Schiavo, told CNN Terri Schiavo "does look a little withdrawn," but said she was not in pain, calling starvation "part of the death process."

Shortly after the complainant was informed the DCF investigation was scrubbed, Pat Anderson, the attorney representing the Schindlers at the time issued a subpoena to the investigator to find out what went on at DCF.

During a hearing held by Greer on Jan. 23, 2002 over Felos' counter-motion to quash the subpoena, Greer is said to have indicated he knew about the DCF report. He ruled in favor of quashing the subpoena and nothing came of the DCF investigation.

Curiously, an anonymous person at DCF mailed a box, presumably containing the hefty complaint, back to the complainant in September 2003. The outside of the box was marked: "You may need this. It was scheduled for destruction."

The complainant was instructed by Schindler attorneys not to open the box for fear of damaging any fingerprints, and to keep it in a secure place for possible use as evidence later.

[b]Off again, on again DCF

The DCF complainant suspects Nagatani's departure from the social services agency explains the recent attempted intervention in the ongoing court battle, contrary to his pledge to stay on the sidelines until its conclusion.

WND reported the DCF launched a new investigation late last month into 30 new complaints of "abuse, neglect or exploitation" the agency said came through its anonymous abuse hot line on Feb. 18 and Feb. 21.

DCF filed a petition to intervene in the case and requested a 60-day stay of Greer's ordered removal of the feeding tube while it conducts an investigation.

Among the allegations of abuse or neglect on the part of Michael Schiavo are:
Failure to file proper guardianship plan or report

Denial of access to legal counsel on different occasions

Failure to educate using certain therapies in violation of guardianship

Experimental procedures performed without proper medical and legal procedures observed

Current confinement issues at ward's residence

Lack of manipulation of the ward's arms, causing severe contractures

Lack of communication/visitation

The 11-page confidential document supplied to attorneys references the earlier investigation. "There are allegations that DCF has investigated that have been closed as unfounded. While the DCF stands by its past decisions, it nevertheless reserves its rights to review any updated or relevant information in the full fair and final determination of this matter given the totality of the circumstances," reads the court petition.

Anticipating Greer's repeated rulings since 2001 dismissing the allegations as old news, the petition states: "The court's determination that it has reviewed some or all of these facts does not relieve DCF from discharging its [statutory] investigative duties."

The motion is signed by Adult Protective Investigations Supervisor Michael Will and and DCF attorney Kelly McKibben.

Felos blasted the DCF's attempt to intervene in the case, saying it "reeks of political arm-twisting."

On Wednesday, Greer dismissed the DCF's motion for a 60-day stay of his court order to remove the feeding tube.

(continues ...)

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:46 PM

FDLE's open-and-shut case

As first reported by the Empire Journal, two FDLE agents looked into accusations Terri Schiavo was battered by her husband prior to her mysterious collapse, and has been the victim of abuse and neglect at nursing homes and hospice ever since.

WorldNetDaily has obtained a heavily redacted copy of the FDLE report filed by special agent Terrell Rhodes that indicates an investigation was launched Aug. 10, 2003 after special agent Mark Dubina received information regarding a criminal complaint from Anderson.

The basis of Anderson's request, according to the report, was the discovery of a nuclear imaging bone scan performed on Terri Schiavo by Dr. W. Campbell Walker at Manatee Memorial Hospital on March 3, 1991 – 13 months after her collapse.

In February of 1990 at the age of 26, Terri Schiavo collapsed at home and oxygen was cut off to her brain for several minutes. The cause of the collapse is disputed. Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, blames a cardiac arrest induced by a potassium imbalance associated with bulimia. The Schindlers suspect he tried to strangle her, based on court testimony by a neurologist that Terri had suffered a neck injury when she was admitted to the hospital.

WorldNetDaily reported the bone scan describes what are known as "hot spots" suggestive of multiple fractures in her ribs, first lumbar vertebra, several thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, and both knees and ankles, all deemed "presumably traumatic" by Walker. "The patient has a history of trauma," writes Walker in the report. "The presumption is that the other multiple areas of abnormal activity ["hot spots"] also relate to previous trauma."

WND reported Felos called the implication of abuse "garbage." Citing medical records, he told WND a follow-up X-ray done to verify the cause of the "hot spots" showed "degenerative bone disease, not multiple fractures ... and only showed a minor fracture in the femur."

The Empire Journal, quoting anonymous sources, reports that when Dubina opened a file into the case, he was called into his supervisor's office and told to shut down the investigation not once, but twice.

Dubina and another agent have reportedly contacted the current attorneys representing the Schindlers and given statements detailing the "cover up" by FDLE superiors, which they suspect, according to Empire Journal, was ordered by Bernie McCabe, state attorney for Pinellas and Pasco County.

Calls to Dubina and the Clearwater office of FDLE where the investigation was initiated were not returned.

The report indicates the findings of the investigation were reviewed by Regional Director Lance Newman, Investigative Chief Moses Jordan and Special Agent Supervisor Troy Walker.

A final decision was made that FDLE would not continue the investigation primarily because "any criminal violation that might have occurred would have been within the city of St. Petersburg" and therefore out of FDLE's jurisdiction.

The other reasons cited were:

"No indisputable evidence was identified that could justify a case for charging Michael Schiavo with physical, domestic abuse"

"It would not be possible to prosecute Michael Schiavo of a crime if the allegation could be proven due to the statute of limitations of criminal proceedings under Florida State Statute 775.15."

Sources told the Empire Journal indictments have come out of cases with less evidence than was presented in this probe.

The Bradenton Herald reports McCabe reviewed some of Terri Schiavo's medical records but found no evidence of abuse. He also noted that even if there was abuse, the statute of limitations had expired.

The Tallahassee-based Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, the state-appointed group that monitors the treatment of disabled adults also attempted to investigate the abuse allegations but said it was blocked by Michael Schiavo when he denied permission to examine his wife.

The allegations probed by DCF, FDLE and McCabe mirror those raised repeatedly – and unsuccessfully – in motions filed by the Schindlers seeking the removal of Michael Schiavo as their daughter's legal guardian.

Among the Schindlers neglect and abuse complaints is that Michael Schiavo:

Has not allowed therapy or rehabilitation since late 1992.

Has prevented swallowing tests or swallowing therapy since 1993.

Ordered caretakers not to clean Terri's teeth since 1995, resulting in removal of five teeth in April 2004.

Placed Terri in hospice in 2000, despite the fact she is not terminally ill.

Refuses to allow Terri to leave her room. She has not been outside since 2000.

Ordered doctors not to treat Terri when she had a life threatening infection in 1993 and 1995.

Former caregivers filed affidavits with the court claiming Michael Schiavo withheld medical care and rehabilitative therapy from his wife and indicated he wanted her to die.

In her sworn deposition, certified nursing assistant Heidi Law said she and a co-worker secretly disobeyed Michael Schiavo's orders and gave Terri range of motion therapy behind closed doors. "We knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so," Law wrote. "We usually did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times."

Law, who cared for Terri Schiavo at the nursing home where she resided from March to mid- 1997, also detailed instances when Terri swallowed liquids and Jello. "At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag," Law wrote. "On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

The caregivers reported hearing Terri Schiavo say "mommy," "pain," and "help me," and say the notes they kept of her progress were consistently deleted from her file.

Michael Schiavo says Terri Schiavo has not said a word since 1990.

He has repeatedly and strenously denied allegations of abuse and neglect.

Felos called the caregivers' testimony "a bunch of garbage" and said their accounts of Terri Schiavo talking were "total fabrication."

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43509

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 09:49 PM

Doctors debate Schiavo's condition
Friday, March 25, 2005

(AP) -- An affidavit filed this week that questions whether Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state is not the first time that diagnosis has been challenged in court. But the last time doctors fought it out in front of a judge, the diagnosis was upheld.

The issue arose again this week when a neurologist, Dr. William Cheshire of the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida, said in a court document that he believed it's more likely that Schiavo is in a "minimally conscious state."

In a persistent vegetative state, a person is awake but not aware of himself or his environment, and making only reflex movements. In a minimally conscious state, a person's behavior shows inconsistent but reproducible signs of consciousness. For example, a patient can occasionally follow simple commands -- scratch his nose if it itches -- or try to use an object such as a comb correctly.

The Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville said in a statement that Cheshire, at the request of the state of Florida, observed Schiavo at her bedside and reviewed her medical history but did not conduct an extensive examination of her.

In his affidavit, Cheshire said Schiavo showed several behaviors "that I believe cast a reasonable doubt on the prior diagnosis" of persistent vegetative state. For example, he said, her face brightens and she smiles in response to familiar voices such as those of her parents. Her eyes don't track moving objects consistently, but "she does fixate her gaze on colorful objects or human faces for some 15 seconds at a time," he said.

"Although Terri did not demonstrate during our 90-minute visit compelling evidence of verbalization, conscious awareness or volitional behavior, yet the visitor has the distinct sense of the presence of a living human being who seems at some level to be aware of some things around her," Cheshire said in the affidavit.

But the first part of that sentence, in fact, "starts to meet the criteria for vegetative state," said Dr. Gene Sung, director of the neurocritical care and stroke section of the University of Southern California.

Sung, who has not been involved with the case, said of Cheshire that "unfortunately his feelings, and possibly his religious beliefs, are affecting his medical decision." Cheshire is listed as director of biotech ethics for the Center for Bioethics and Human Dignity, which notes on its Web site that it was founded by Christian bioethicists.

Sung said the original diagnosis was based on repeated examinations by "very distinguished neurologists" and he said he is as comfortable with that diagnosis as he can be without examining Schiavo himself.

Dr. Roger Albin, a professor of neurology at the University of Michigan who also was not involved in the Schiavo case, agreed. "I don't think there's any reason to doubt the diagnosis. ...I don't think her evaluation could have been done better."

He also said he's not aware of any evidence that a person could emerge from years in a persistent vegetative state and enter a minimally conscious state, especially in a case such as Schiavo's, where blood flow to the brain had been temporarily cut off in 1990.

The diagnosis has been a court matter, both in 2000 and in 2002. In the latter year, a Florida judge agreed with four neurologists that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state. Brain scans and examinations were conducted in 2002, but no new neurological evaluation has been ordered since, and the medical record has been closed.

Testimony in those cases included statements from Schiavo's treating physician, Dr. Victor Gambone, who said in 2000 that he agreed with the diagnosis. He said Schiavo's daily caregivers told him they could not get any response indicating an appreciation of her surroundings.

In 2002, Dr. Ronald Cranford, an expert on persistent vegetative states who was brought into the case by Schiavo's husband, testified that key centers of Schiavo's brain probably had no viable neurons left. She was not actually fixing her gaze on her mother, as had been suggested, but rather showing a reflex action seen in patients in the a vegetative state.

Cranford said Thursday he still has no doubt the diagnosis is correct and that Cheshire is "flat-out wrong."

Two other neurologists also agreed with the diagnosis, including one appointed by the court to examine and evaluate Schiavo.

But doctors representing Schiavo's parents at the 2002 hearing had a different conclusion. Dr. William Hammesfahr, a Florida neurologist, said his examination of Schiavo found she is "definitely aware of her mother" and communicating by following instructions and in looking at people. And a radiologist said a brain scan in 2002 showed more normal appearance than one in 1996 and said there was a "significant probability that she would improve" with certain treatments.

But the court was not given any objective data to support that latter assertion, said Dr. Timothy Quill, director of the Center for Palliative Care and Clinical Ethics of the University of Rochester Medical Center, writing in a commentary published online this week by the New England Journal of Medicine.

Hammesfahr has been a figure of controversy. In 2001, the Florida Department of Health accused him of falsely advertising a neurological treatment and exploiting a patient for financial gain. The treatment is "contrary to current neurological knowledge," the department said. Hammesfahr denied the accusations, and in an interview Thursday he said the probation and fine against him were overturned on appeal.

On Thursday, Dr. Lawrence J. Schneiderman of the University of California, San Diego, a specialist in bioethics of medical futility and end-of-life care, said in an interview, "He's a quack, to put it the politest way I can."

Hammesfahr said he believes Schiavo can be helped by treatment and that numerous other neurologists, some of whom actually examined Schiavo, agreed. "I'm not the only person who has said she can be rehabilitated," he said. "Are we all quacks?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/03/25/schiavo.doctors.ap/index.html

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 10:00 PM

Disability groups on Schiavo
David Shuster

This week, we've all been following the twists and turns in the Terri Schiavo dispute as well as the effort by Congress to change the outcome in federal court. My previous blogs make it quite clear what I think of the horrifying political opportunism displayed by our lawmakers.

However, one can disagree with what Congress did and still believe that Terri Schiavo should be protected. To that end, I'd like to turn over the rest of this blog to a group of people who deal with these issues every day. "The Arc of the United States" is a leading advocacy group for disabled americans. Steve Eidelman is their executive director and has submitted an op-ed to newspapers across the country. He writes, in part:

"For people with disabilities and their families, the Schiavo case represents a slippery slope and raises the possibility that the right to life of people with significant intellectual and or physical disabilities might one day be questioned...

"... Today, there are thousands of people with various physical and cognitive disabilities who use feeding tubes as their normal means of getting food and water. For these people, a feeding tube is not life support or heroic intervention. It is a simple way of getting hydration and nourishment. When they are hospitalized for any reason – however minor – they risk having their normal means of eating and drinking be classified as as “extraordinary treatment” or “life support.”

"...The disability community has grappled with these issues in the past and has come to the conclusion that in such cases, it is best to assume that life is preferable over death. Is that not what the Schiavo case is all about? Laws governing surrogate decision-making vary among states and are often the result of well-funded advocacy from a narrow group of professionals. In most cases, disability organizations were not included in changes of statutes on the state level, and the drafters of those statues did not take into account the views of those with disabilities..."

"...Our society must stop using the term “persistent vegetative state.” Too many people with significant disabilities have been called “vegetables,” and this must stop. It is beyond demeaning; it is dehumanizing. In fact, some of the people who use the term most freely are doctors, and what comes next is a discussion of the death or warehousing of the individual labeled that way."

"...When a person has serious disabilities, the debate should not be about whether or not they are going to “get better” some day. For millions of Americans, disability is a fact of life,every day of our lives. People with disabilities have wonderful lives. And some have lousy lives. In that way, they are just like other Americans. Just because a person has a significant disability does not mean that they do not love their life. It does not mean that they should be assumed to be better off dead."

"...It is time for a call to conscience to both the Right and the Left. Guardianship should not be a death ship. People like Terri Schiavo are persons under the law, and they deserve constitutional protection."

"...The disability community is grateful that so many in Congress supported Terri Schiavo’s right to live, even though we are concerned about the precedent they set. We would like to see them follow up with the same level of concern for making sure we can provide care and support for the millions of Americans with disabilities by supporting Medicaid Community Attendant Services and Supports Act, which would allow people receiving Medicaid funding to have a life, not just stay to alive.– We call on them to ensure continued appropriate funding of Medicaid and other programs that people need..."

"...Terri Schiavo’s case is every family’s nightmare. Disability doesn’t have to be a nightmare. Even if our nation disagrees on how we define compassion, we must certainly agree that all lives are equal under the law."

Amen. Thank you Steve Eidelman from "Arc of the United States" for your group's articulate and thought provoking op-ed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287283/#050325a

(( looking for the whole & entire piece ... ))

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 10:12 PM

SCHIAVO SCANDAL INDICATES LOW STATE OF BIOETHICS
Sun Mar 27, 2005
By John Leo

Think of the Terri Schiavo case as another red-vs.-blue issue. Congress, Republican-dominated and therefore mostly red, asked the federal courts to take a fresh look. The federal judiciary, in its customary imperial blue, contemptuously told Congress to take a hike. It wouldn't delay the execution for even a few days. For that, you need to be a convicted cop killer.

Color the mainstream media blue. Photos of pro-lifers usually show people who seem to be unbalanced, waving Bibles, rolling their eyes crazily -- right out of the playbook for anti-abortion coverage. The nearly identical headlines in several papers saying, "How the Personal Became the Political," reflect a media consensus that the anti-death side is intruding where it doesn't belong.

The verb "placate" is overused to indicate that this is just politics, and Republicans are humoring those zany evangelicals. ABC and CBS are under fire from red bloggers for conducting what critics consider "push polls," i.e., public-opinion surveys constructed to achieve the correct pro-death result. Disability-rights activists are an important constituency defending Schiavo's right to live, but since journalists cannot afford to depict them as unbalanced or foolish, they have been rendered almost invisible.

The underlying red-blue issue involves the current state of bioethics. Many of the founders of this relatively new field were religiously motivated. Daniel Callahan, a former colleague of mine at the Catholic magazine Commonweal, cofounded the Hastings Center. Sargent Shriver and the Kennedy family launched the Kennedy Institute of Ethics at Georgetown University. But the bioethics world turned rigorously secular and veered sharply to the blue section of the color spectrum.

A key factor in the rise of bioethics, Callahan wrote, was the "emergence ideologically of a form of bioethics that dovetailed nicely with the reigning political liberalism of the educated classes in America." Instead of the traditional emphasis on the sanctity of life, bioethics began to stress the quality of life, meaning that many damaged humans, young and old, don't qualify for personhood because their lives have lost value. The nonpersons should be allowed to die and in some cases be killed.

This explains why so few bioethicists have protested what the state and her husband planned for Terri Schiavo, who is severely damaged, but not in pain or dying, not brain-dead, and in no position to protest her own execution on grounds that other people consider it best for her.

Bioethics has hardened into an activist ideology that pervades the medical world, the schools and government. This explains why Leon Kass, a moderate conservative who heads the president's committee on bioethics, is under such fierce attack and why Princeton University picked Peter Singer as its first scholar in bioethics. Singer thinks parents should be able to kill disabled newborns.

Among bioethicists, Kass says, "there is a kind of condescension toward the views of the general public (and) a very real danger that what constitutes meaningful life among the intellectual elite will be imposed on people as the only standard by which the value of human life is measured."

Under pressure from bioethicists, norms have been collapsing. Fifteen years ago, as author Wesley Smith writes in his 2002 book "The Culture of Death," legally assisted suicide was unthinkable. So was harvesting the organs of terminally ill patients, which is done today and approved by bioethicists.

Pushing the culture toward outcomes previously considered immoral is routine in bioethics. The Rev. Richard Neuhaus, editor in chief of the nation's best religious journal (First Things), wrote: "Thousands of ethicists and bioethicists, as they are called, professionally guide the unthinkable on its passage through the debatable on its way to becoming the justifiable, until it is finally established as the unexceptional."

The Schiavo case is a breakthrough for persuading the public to lower the bar on moral constraints. Once we had a bright line between pulling the plug on patients kept alive by life-support systems and killing people like Terri Schiavo, who are not on life support but merely being fed through a tube. Requiring clear evidence of consent is no longer required. In the Schiavo case, we have vaguely remembered consent from a party with a vested interest (the husband) some eight years after the patient was stricken.

Though the medical and media people seem to agree that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state (PVS), there is some doubt that this is so. She has never been given a PET scan, one of the most sophisticated tests used to diagnose PVS, apparently because her husband refused to allow it. The killing of Schiavo is a scandal successfully redefined as unexceptional and therefore moral.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2206&ncid=742&e=15&u=/ucjl/20050328/cm_ucjl/schiavoscandalindicateslowstateofbioethics

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 10:19 PM

There was a differnent administration in then. They knew to leave well enough alone. When you have this many religous people standing on the front lawn of a hospice (and G. B. in office) I'm not surprised it happened at all. It give sthe Republicans another oppurtunity to "do something" while the DEmocrats "sit around". COngress, the President "knew" they shouldn't have goitten involved; they gambled and lost. And now the admin (esp GB) have taken a hit.

You have a point. I hate that the media has thrown this around. But it did bring about some good, people are more aware.

In this case "The need of the many outway the need of the few or the one"

I love the Star Trek quote : "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few ... or the one"

STARVED FOR JUSTICE
Thu Mar 24, 2005

Democrats have called out armed federal agents in order to:
(1) prevent black children from attending a public school in Little Rock, Ark. (National Guard);
(2) investigate an alleged violation of federal gun laws in Waco, Texas (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms);
and
(3) deport a small boy to Cuba (Immigration and Naturalization Service).

So how about a Republican governor sending in the National Guard to stop an innocent American woman from being starved to death in Florida? Republicans like the military. Democrats get excited about the use of military force only when it's against Americans.

In two of the three cases mentioned above, the Democrats' use of force was in direct contravention of court rulings. Admittedly, this was a very long time ago -- back in U.S. history when the judiciary was only one of the three branches of our government. Democratic Gov. Orval Faubus called out the Arkansas National Guard expressly for purposes of defying rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court and lower federal courts.

The Democrat Bill Clinton sent armed agents from the INS to seize a small boy from an American family -- despite rulings by the majestic and infallible Florida courts granting custody of the boy to that very family.

None of these exercises of military force has gone down in history as a noble moment, but that's because of the underlying purpose of the force, not the fact that force was used.

To the contrary, what has gone down in history as a glorious moment for the republic was when President Dwight Eisenhower (Republican) called out military force of his own. In response to Gov. Faubus' abuse of the National Guard, Eisenhower simultaneously revoked Faubus' control of the National Guard and ordered the 101st Airborne Division to escort black students to school. (Minutes later, Democrats pronounced the Arkansas public schools a "hopeless quagmire" and demanded to know what Ike's exit strategy was.)

As important as it was to enforce the constitutional right to desegregated schools, isn't it also important to enforce Terri Schiavo's right to due process before she is killed by starvation?

Liberals' newfound respect for "federalism" is completely disingenuous. People who support a national policy on abortion are prohibited from ever using the word "federalism."

I note that whenever liberals talk about "federalism" or "states' rights," they are never talking about a state referendum or a law passed by the duly elected members of a state legislature -- or anything voted on by the actual citizens of a state. What liberals mean by "federalism" is: a state court ruling. Just as "choice" refers to only one choice, "the rule of law" refers only to "the law as determined by a court."

As a practical matter, courts will generally have the last word in interpreting the law because courts decide cases. But that's a pragmatic point. There is nothing in the law, the Constitution or the concept of "federalism" that mandates giving courts the last word. Other public officials, including governors and presidents, are sworn to uphold the law, too.

It would be chaotic if public officials made a habit of disregarding court rulings simply because they disagreed with them. But a practice borne of practicality has led the courts to greater and greater flights of arrogance. Sublimely confident that no one will ever call their bluff, courts are now regularly discovering secret legal provisions requiring abortion and gay marriage and prohibiting public prayer and Ten Commandments displays.

Just once, we need an elected official to stand up to a clearly incorrect ruling by a court. Any incorrect ruling will do, but my vote is for a state court that has ordered a disabled woman to be starved to death at the request of her adulterous husband.

Florida state court judge George Greer -- last heard from when he denied an order of protection to a woman weeks before her husband stabbed her to death -- determined that Terri would have wanted to be starved to death based on the testimony of her husband, who was then living with another woman. (The judge also took judicial notice of the positions of O.J. Simpson, Scott Peterson and Robert Blake.) The husband also happened to be the only person present when the oxygen was cut off to Terri's brain in the first place. He now has two children with another woman.

Greer has refused to order the most basic medical tests for brain damage before condemning a woman to death. Despite all those years of important, searching litigation we keep hearing about, Terri has yet to receive either an MRI or a PET scan -- although she may be allowed to join a support group for women whose husbands are trying to kill them.

Greer has cut off the legal rights of Terri's real family and made her husband (now with a different family) her sole guardian, citing as precedent the landmark "Fox v. Henhouse" ruling of 1893. Throughout the process that would result in her death sentence, Terri was never permitted her own legal counsel. Evidently, they were all tied up defending the right to life of child-molesting murderers.

Given the country's fetishism about court rulings, this may be a rash assumption, but I presume if Greer had ordered that Terri Schiavo be shot at her husband's request -- a more humane death, by the way -- the whole country would not sit idly by, claiming to be bound by the court's ruling because of the "rule of law" and "federalism." President Bush would order the FBI to protect her and Gov. Bush would send in the state police.

What was supposed to be the "least dangerous" branch has become the most dangerous -- literally to the point of ordering an innocent American woman to die, and willfully disregarding congressional subpoenas. They can't be stopped -- solely because the entire country has agreed to treat the pronouncements of former ambulance-chasers as the word of God. The only power courts have is that everyone jumps when they say "jump." (Also, people seem a little intimidated by the black robes. From now on we should make all judges wear lime-green leisure suits.)

President Andrew Jackson is supposed to have said of a Supreme Court ruling he opposed: "Well, John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it." The court's ruling was ignored. And yet, somehow, the republic survived.

If Gov. Jeb Bush doesn't say something similar to the Florida courts that have ordered Terri Schiavo to die, he'll be the second Republican governor disgraced by the illiterate ramblings of a state judiciary. Gov. Mitt Romney will never recover from his acquiescence to the Massachusetts Supreme Court's miraculous discovery of a right to gay marriage. Neither will Gov. Bush if he doesn't stop the torture and murder of Terri Schiavo.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=108&ncid=742&e=10&u=/ucac/20050325/cm_ucac/starvedforjustice

Jolie Rouge

03-27-2005, 10:24 PM

THE RIGHT TO KILL TERRI SCHIAVO
Tue Mar 22, 2005

Terri Schiavo must die. A federal judge refused to order the tube bringing her food and water reinserted. As you read this, Terri Schiavo is dying of thirst, deliberately induced.

Michael Schiavo, her legal husband, who lives with another woman (the mother of his two children), still claims a husband's right to direct Terri's medical care. And so she must die. He says she would have wanted it that way.

Sixty percent of Americans in the latest Gallup poll apparently agree with Michael Schiavo.

The hope of Terri's parents -- that widespread media coverage including pictures of their smiling, grimacing, moaning, gazing daughter, looking distinctly un-vegetablelike, will save her -- has apparently backfired. We look on their beloved daughter Terri and are mostly appalled and repulsed. Who would want to live like that? Terri herself, in watching the similar decline of beloved relatives, allegedly expressed horror at the prospect, saying (according to court depositions) she wouldn't want to live like that. Well, who would?

So the desperate pleadings of a mother for the life of her child fall on deaf ears. So sorry, Mom, but Terri must die the long, slow, agonizing death of dehydration. It is in her interests, see? Her husband (who has lived for 10 years with another woman) says so. And frankly, we gotta agree with him.

George Felos, an attorney for Michael Schiavo, argued in federal court: "Yes, life is sacred. So is liberty, particularly in this country."

The liberty of a patient to refuse medical treatment, when the treatment is overly intrusive or futile, is well-established. Are we honoring Terri's right to refuse medical care (expressed now by proxy through the man who claims the rights of a husband while he lives with and has children by another woman)? Or are we asserting a right to kill her? Is food and water medical care?

"Persistent vegetative state" was a diagnosis invented in order to cope with patients who are not brain-dead, but severely mentally disabled. The claim is that such people have no cognition, no self-awareness at all, but of course we cannot know for sure what such patients experience. The fact that a number of patients have emerged from persistent vegetative states after many years ought to be a flashing warning sign: There's still someone there, even if that person is unable to communicate. Does that person have a right to life? Is her life sacred too? Or if we find her condition sufficiently repulsive, do we have the right to kill her?

Nor is there agreement that Terri is in a vegetative state right now. Her family disputes it, saying she sometimes responds to their loving gestures and words. Their perceptions are dismissed as wishful thinking. But a neurologist who was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1999 (and who examined Terri Schiavo several years ago) told BP News (www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20400) that Terri is not in a vegetative state. She sometimes responds. Terri (he says) has been able to swallow pudding in the past, and can swallow her own saliva right now. With therapy, she might not even need the feeding tube. "They are truly withholding food from a person who is awake, alert, and can eat and swallow."

Does that matter?

If Terri were capable of drinking water right now, would we be justified in withholding it from her? Are we celebrating her autonomy or her death?

When does the "right to die" become the right to kill?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=115&ncid=742&e=7&u=/ucmg/20050323/cm_ucmg/therighttokillterrischiavo

nightrider127

03-28-2005, 04:09 AM

But a neurologist who was nominated for the Nobel Prize in 1999 (and who examined Terri Schiavo several years ago) told BP News (www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=20400) that Terri is not in a vegetative state.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=115&ncid=742&e=7&u=/ucmg/20050323/cm_ucmg/therighttokillterrischiavo

He was nominated for the Nobel Peace prize by Rep. Mike Bilirakis (R-FL) who is not qualified to make Nobel Prize nominations. http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009

In 2001 Dr. Hammesfahr was cited by the Florida Medical Board for fraud and 'bilking' his patients for money.You can read his appeal here http://www.2dca.org/opinion/March%2...4/2D03-1109.pdf
He's also listed on quackwatch.org
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/index.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quacker.../Tests/tcd.html
I wouldn't be putting much stock in anything Dr. Hammesfahr has to say.

This was posted by another member in another forum here at BBS. And like her, I wouldn't put too much stock in what this doctor has to say either.

FetishKtn

03-28-2005, 04:24 AM

All these people camped out outside the hospice, how come they aren't trying to save all the other people dying in the hospice? Guess the other patients aren't controversial enough to make the hypocrites give a d@mn.

nightrider127

03-28-2005, 04:37 AM

Oh and speaking of those reporters and demonstrators. What gives them the right to be out there, disturbing other patients and their familes? I am a big believer in free speech, but the rights of one person ends with the beginning of another persons rights. I read somewhere that a person was not able to tell their grandfather goodbye because of all the security that was required around that hospice. Now that is not right. It hurts when you are losing someone you love and don't get the oppourtunity to say goodbye to them. I know this because I have been there, done that.

That hospice administrator ought to make them move away from that hospice and if they didn't move, he ought to get the police to arrest them all. Let them demonstrate all they want to, but at another location.

YankeeMary

03-28-2005, 05:45 AM

In situations like this, after assets are sold the remaining money goes into trust and can only be used for certain specified purposes, Anderson said. Upon the patient's death any remaining money goes to the government. In exchange, the government extends Medicaid benefits.

This was copied and pasted from a post made by Jolie, several posts back...just wanted to point it out because I was wondering about how she was abletoqualify for medicaid. Also it shows that he can't be doing this for money if the government gets whatever little bit is left.

Jolie Rouge

03-28-2005, 09:14 AM

Schiavo's Parents 'Dealing With Reality'
By MARK LONG

http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/2/20050327MH202.jpg

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - Terri Schiavo's parents know their brain-damaged daughter is dying and are ``dealing with reality,'' a family spokesman said Monday, even as their supporters pledged to take their fight to Washington.

On Schiavo's 10th day without food or water, supporters of her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, continued to plead for President Bush and his brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, to intervene to have her feeding tube reinserted. ``Everyone is willing to write this woman's obituary except one person. And that's Terri Schiavo herself,'' said Paul O'Donnell, a Roman Catholic Franciscan monk and a spokesman for her parents. A group of their supporters were heading to protest outside the White House gates Monday.

President Bush's aides have said they ran out of legal options to help the woman. Gov. Jeb Bush said Monday that while it ``made sense'' to have federal courts review the case, he had to respect their decisions last week not to order the tube reinserted. ``I have not seen any means by which the executive branch can get involved. My legal counsel has talked to the Schindler family and their lawyer over the weekend,'' Bush said. ``My heart is broken about this.''

Neither Schiavo's parents nor her husband offered new, specific details on her condition, but one of the two priests who visited her hospital room Easter Sunday said the brain-damaged woman's ``death is imminent.''

O'Donnell said Schiavo smiled, raised her hands and made guttural sounds late Sunday while being visited by her father and a friend, who was talking about how she liked to go out dancing. ``They are dealing with reality,'' O'Donnell said of the Schindlers in an interview on NBC's ``Today.'' ``They know their daughter is dying. They know what is about to happen.''

Schiavo's parents dispute that their daughter is in a persistent vegetative state as court-ordered doctors have determined. Michael Schiavo contends his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially.

Fewer than 10 protesters stayed overnight in rain and wind. One man was arrested before dawn trying to take a jug of water to Schiavo.

Schiavo's mother did not visit her daughter on Easter, emotions keeping her from the hospice for the first time since Terri's feeding tube was removed 10 days ago, O'Donnell said. ``If she goes in there again, we might have to take her to the hospital,'' O'Donnell said.

But the woman's parents claimed one Easter victory: Schiavo's husband, Michael, allowed her to receive communion wine. As her brother, sister and brother-in-law watched, the Rev. Thaddeus Malanowski held Terri's right hand as he and the hospice priest, the Rev. Joseph Braun, placed the droplet on her tongue. Malanowski also anointed her with holy oil, offered a blessing and absolved her of sin. ``She received the blood of Christ,'' said Malanowski, adding he could not give her a fleck of communion bread because her tongue was too dry.

Tensions were noticeably heightened both among the protesters and, apparently, among the closest confidants to the woman's parents. David Gibbs III, their lead lawyer, told CBS' ``Face the Nation'' that Schiavo has ``passed where physically she would be able to recover.''

``In the family's opinion, that is absolutely not true,'' spokesman Randall Terry said outside the hospice.

The Schindler family, also bothered by repeated arrests and heightened anger outside the hospice, pleaded with supporters to spend Easter with their families. They had little success; five people were arrested and chants of ``Give Terri water!'' echoed for much of the day.

Extra police officers blocked the road in front of Schiavo's hospice and Pinellas County school officials said an elementary school next to the hospice would be closed Monday.

At least two more state-filed appeals are pending, but those challenges are before the state 2nd District Court of Appeal, which has rebuffed Gov. Jeb Bush's previous efforts in the case. Bush's office and the court clerk said Monday it was unclear when the appeals judges would rule.

Doctors have said Schiavo, 41, would probably die within a week or two once the feeding tube - which kept her alive for 15 years - was disconnected. She relied on the tube since suffering catastrophic brain damage when her heart stopped beating and oxygen was cut off to her brain.

At Michael Schiavo's Clearwater home, protesters dropped roses and Easter lilies on his lawn - a peaceful protest interrupted when sprinklers came on. His fiancee's brother picked up the flowers and handed them to a bystander to take away. John Centonze declined to answer questions, only saying that Michael Schiavo was ``very upset.''

During Easter services at St. Michael the Archangel Catholic Church in Clearwater, the Rev. Ted Costello avoided mentioning the Schiavo case. Yet at Faith Lutheran Church in Dunedin, the Rev. Peter Kolb thought Schiavo's story was appropriate for his sermon. ``One day, we're all going to go through the valley,'' Kolb told churchgoers.

Associated Press writers Mike Schneider, Vickie Chachere, Fred Goodall and Allen Breed contributed to this report.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-us-10-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050328%2F1058280893.htm&sc=1110&photoid=20050327MH202

03/28/05 10:58

YankeeMary

03-28-2005, 10:06 AM

I am glad they chose the above picture for the article opposed to the recent ones. She would like this better I am sure.

kidzpca

03-28-2005, 05:17 PM

'Little Jerry' dies Easter Sunday
Monday, March 28, 2005

Gerold Marcinkowski III, a 20-year-old Oshtemo Township resident who spent nearly half his life in a coma, died Easter Sunday in his home.

"Little Jerry," as his family called him, was cared for in his home by his father and stepmother, Gerold and Lori Marcinkowski, during the last days of his life.

He was featured in a Kalamazoo Gazette story March 23 after the couple accepted the advice of medical professionals, and followed their own consciences, not to use any more extreme measures to prolong the man's life.

He remained on a feeding tube, oxygen and a morphine pump to control his pain. The exact cause of death has not been determined.

"We are at the point where we have decided to stop being selfish and let him go," Lori Marcinkowski said at the time. "It was a very, very hard decision."

The Marcinkowskis say they decided to talk publicly about their decision after watching news reports about Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman whose feeding tube was removed March 18. She has been severely brain-damaged for 15 years since her heart stopped beating and oxygen was cut off from her brain.

Schiavo's case attracted national attention after her husband, Michael, sought to have her feeding tube removed and her parents opposed the decision. A series of court decisions has favored removal of the tube.

"Little Jerry," born deaf on June 7, 1984, suffered a series of serious infections that left him virtually unresponsive after about age 10. Besides his father and stepmother, he is survived by his mother, Colleen Snyder.

Funeral arrangements were still pending.

kidzpca

03-28-2005, 05:27 PM

LAST TIME I WILL POST THE FOLLOWING STORY BUT SINCE HE PASSED ON EASTER SUNDAY ONLY DAYS AFTER THE ARTICLE THOUGHT SOME WOULD LIKE TO READ.

Family facing dilemma like Terri Schiavo's makes an agonizing decision
Wednesday, March 23, 2005

"Little Jerry" has come home for the last time.

Bedridden and virtually unresponsive for half of his 20 years, Gerold Marcinkowski III is fighting the latest in a series of infections that has put him at the edge of death several times since an automobile accident when he was 4.

That accident, which caused a closed head injury, set off a series of events that led to a slow decline and multiple hospitalizations, including the latest hospitalization earlier this month. Jerry was brought home about a week ago.

While the Oshtemo Township resident remains connected to a feeding tube, oxygen and a morphine pump, his parents, Gerold and Lori Marcinkowski, now have accepted the advice from medical professionals -- and their own consciences -- not to use any more extreme measures to prolong their son's life.

They said they will no longer use antibiotics that have helped him through previous infections and will not resuscitate him if his situation worsens.

"We are at the point where we have decided to stop being selfish and let him go," Lori Marcinkowski said Tuesday morning. "It is a very, very hard decision.

"As parents, we never want to see a child go first. But when we knew that it was time to make a final decision, we asked family and friends and they all agreed," she said.

"Does he have any quality of life? No, he doesn't. Is it more humane to keep pumping in the antibiotics or to let him go? Let him go," she said.

"We love him," Gerold Marcinkowski said.

The Marcinkowskis say they decided to talk about their decision after watching the news about Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman who has been in a persistent vegetative state longer than their son.

"We are hoping that if we tell our story, maybe they could read about it or that we can help other people in a similar situation," Lori Marcinkowski said.

"I can understand how Terri's parents feel. No parent wants to bury a child. But I can also understand how her husband feels. ... He sees the suffering and the pain that she feels."

As the Marcinkowskis talk, Jerry's eyes are open and move side to side or upward, never focusing. A machine records his heart rate at nearly 150 beats a minute. There is no movement other than his eyes and chest as he breathes.

Born deaf on June 7, 1984, Little Jerry, as his family calls him, was learning to sign and communicate just before the accident caused the closed-head injury that prompted a four-hour brain surgery, seizures and a year of intensive rehabilitation.

Lori Marcinkowski said that her son slowly regained some function and was attending Croyden Avenue School for children who need special education when he got sick and lost all the gains he had made.

Once again, Jerry underwent rehabilitation and made gains until he got severe pneumonia at about age 9, she said.

His life since then has been a tale of paralysis, hospitalizations, antibiotics to fight infections and an almost complete lack of responsiveness.

"We don't know if he knows us as his parents," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "We sense that he knows us as a constant in his life. We're the ones who bathe him, change his diaper, clip his nails."

Neither parent is able to work because it takes both of them to provide care 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Jerry's medical bills are paid primarily by Medicaid and Michigan Children's Special Health Care Services, formerly called Crippled Children.

The Marcinkowskis' share is about $5,000 a year, Gerold Marcinkowski said.

"We never saw Jerry as a burden on us," Lori Marcinkowski said. "We saw it more as a burden on his sisters. We couldn't do family things, and both of us couldn't attend school events at the same time."

Little Jerry's siblings are Elise, 22, Mary, 21, and Julie, 20.

"He has not been a burden to us at all," said Mary Marcinkowski, who lives at home and attends school. "The burden has been his."

The Marcinkowskis say they have taken that final step to ease that burden.

"We've pulled our hair out over this," Gerold Marcinkowski said. "But we can't see him suffer anymore. We pray and hope he goes in his sleep."

YankeeMary

03-28-2005, 05:52 PM

Awww...kidspca I am sorry for I know you have a special bond with Little Jerry. I am glad his parents came to acceptance and Little Jerry can be with the Lord. Hugs to you and prayers as well as for his family.

Jolie Rouge

03-28-2005, 09:09 PM

Husband seeks autopsy on Terri Schiavo
Fight over brain-damaged woman moves to Washington
Monday, March 28, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo's husband has asked that an autopsy be performed on his wife after she dies so that a full report can be done on the extent of her brain damage, an attorney for Michael Schiavo said Monday.

Attorney George Felos said the autopsy will be performed by Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the chief medical examiner of Pinellas County.

Terri Schiavo, who hasn't had water or nutrients since March 18, is likely to die by week's end, doctors have said.

Now 41, Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990 from cardiac arrest and suffered brain damage because of lack of oxygen. She has been in the center of a decade-long legal tug-of-war between her husband and guardian, Michael, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Michael Schiavo maintains his wife would not want to be kept alive in her condition, while her parents claim she could improve with intense therapy.

Schindler supporters in Florida and Washington appealed Monday to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted.

Bob Schindler spoke to reporters Monday after visiting his daughter at her hospice in Pinellas Park. "She's failing, but she's still with us," he said. "She has to be saved. I plead again that the powers-that-be don't give up on her. We haven't given up on her and she hasn't given up on us."

Terri Schiavo's sister said she "is wide awake and very responsive."

"She recognizes me," Suzanne Vitadamo said Monday. "She's weaker but she's still trying to talk."

Felos said he visited with Terri Schiavo Monday and that she appeared "very calm. I saw no evidence of bodily discomfort whatsoever," he said.

He said her condition had changed little from his last visit on Saturday. "Terri's eyes do look more sunken," Felos said. "And her breathing was a little on the rapid side."

He described her pulse as "thready," or slow, and said she had not urinated since Sunday.

CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, a neurologist, said that is a sign her kidneys are failing and that she has reached a point where, even if the feeding tube was reinserted, it likely wouldn't help.

Congress lobbied

The Rev. Patrick Mahoney, a conservative Christian activist who has been leading demonstrations outside Terri Schiavo's Florida hospice, took his fight to Washington on Monday. "We are here demanding answers," said Mahoney, standing in the rain across the street from the White House with about a dozen supporters behind him.

Mahoney was pushing for congressional leaders -- including House Speaker Dennis Hastert and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay -- to enforce a subpoena issued by a House committee. The subpoena orders Schiavo to appear before Congress. That subpoena was issued March 18, the day Schiavo's feeding tube was removed by order of a Florida state judge. That same judge quashed the House subpoena, and the U.S. Supreme Court rejected an appeal of that decision.

Mahoney and his wife met with two senior attorneys for the House of Representatives for about an hour Monday. Afterward, he said that by canceling Terri Schiavo's hearing, House leadership "might have lost an opportunity to save Terri's life."

Mahoney and a small group then hoped to meet with Government Reform Committee Chairman Tom Davis. He met with Davis' press secretary, David Marin, who told CNN, "We don't see any other legal action we can take."

Numerous state court judges have sided with Michael Schiavo. Court-appointed doctors in Florida have found that she is in a persistent vegetative state, despite arguments from her parents.

Governor pressured

President Bush signed federal legislation on March 21 to move the case from state court to federal court. But the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, refused to overturn the state decisions.

Paul O'Donnell, a Franciscan monk who has been acting as a spokesman for the Schindlers, stepped up pressure on Bush's brother, Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, calling on him Monday to "step in and take custody" of Terri Schiavo. "We're begging, governor: Do something today, now," O'Donnell said. "Don't join the culture of death and be writing this woman's obituary."

The Florida governor has sided with the Schindlers and made efforts to have the tube reinserted, adding his support to state legislation. But by Sunday, Gov. Bush said he had done all he could.

Speaking briefly to reporters Monday, Gov. Bush said he is "respectful of the judiciary's decisions," but "from a personal perspective it just breaks my heart."

"My legal counsel has talked to the Schindler family and their lawyer over the weekend, and I think they've exhausted their remedies as well," he said.

A crowd of protesters has gathered daily outside Schiavo's hospice. Since March 19, 46 people have been arrested, most of them for stepping over a police line in a symbolic effort to bring Schiavo water, said Pinellas Park police Capt. Sanfield Forseth.

Of those 46, only five people were from Florida, he said.

In Asheville, North Carolina, a man accused of soliciting offers for the murder of Michael Schiavo, Richard Alan Meywes, appeared in federal court on Monday.

Morphine given

Bob Schindler on Monday commented about the facility she is in -- Hospice House Woodside -- saying, "I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine."

That triggered a response from the hospice, which has generally refused any comment on the case. "We are not going to do anything to hasten or postpone natural death," said spokesman Mike Bell. "We are trying to provide comfort to the patient as well as the family."

Felos said morphine been administered twice through a suppository since March 18 at what he said the hospice staff told him that is the "lowest possible dose."

Felos also countered accusations that a brain scan has never been performed on Terri Schiavo. He said CAT scans of her brain were introduced in trials in 2000 and 2002, showing that her cerebral cortex was "gone."

Felos said Michael Schiavo decided to come forward with the autopsy plans for Terri Schiavo after "opponents to carrying out her wishes" suggested Michael Schiavo had an ulterior motive in his plans to cremate his wife.

CNN's Ed Henry and Bob Franken contributed to this report.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/28/schiavo/index.html

(( I am glad to hear that they are giving her some morphine to make her comfortable .... ))

Jolie Rouge

03-28-2005, 09:19 PM

YNKYH8R - how would this fit in with "The need of the many outway the need of the few or the one" scenerio ??

Disability groups on Schiavo
David Shuster

This week, we've all been following the twists and turns in the Terri Schiavo dispute as well as the effort by Congress to change the outcome in federal court. My previous blogs make it quite clear what I think of the horrifying political opportunism displayed by our lawmakers.

However, one can disagree with what Congress did and still believe that Terri Schiavo should be protected. To that end, I'd like to turn over the rest of this blog to a group of people who deal with these issues every day. "The Arc of the United States" is a leading advocacy group for disabled americans. Steve Eidelman is their executive director and has submitted an op-ed to newspapers across the country. He writes, in part:

"For people with disabilities and their families, the Schiavo case represents a slippery slope and raises the possibility that the right to life of people with significant intellectual and or physical disabilities might one day be questioned...

"... Today, there are thousands of people with various physical and cognitive disabilities who use feeding tubes as their normal means of getting food and water. For these people, a feeding tube is not life support or heroic intervention. It is a simple way of getting hydration and nourishment. When they are hospitalized for any reason – however minor – they risk having their normal means of eating and drinking be classified as as “extraordinary treatment” or “life support.”

"...The disability community has grappled with these issues in the past and has come to the conclusion that in such cases, it is best to assume that life is preferable over death. Is that not what the Schiavo case is all about? Laws governing surrogate decision-making vary among states and are often the result of well-funded advocacy from a narrow group of professionals. In most cases, disability organizations were not included in changes of statutes on the state level, and the drafters of those statues did not take into account the views of those with disabilities..."

"...Our society must stop using the term “persistent vegetative state.” Too many people with significant disabilities have been called “vegetables,” and this must stop. It is beyond demeaning; it is dehumanizing. In fact, some of the people who use the term most freely are doctors, and what comes next is a discussion of the death or warehousing of the individual labeled that way."

"...When a person has serious disabilities, the debate should not be about whether or not they are going to “get better” some day. For millions of Americans, disability is a fact of life,every day of our lives. People with disabilities have wonderful lives. And some have lousy lives. In that way, they are just like other Americans. Just because a person has a significant disability does not mean that they do not love their life. It does not mean that they should be assumed to be better off dead."

"...It is time for a call to conscience to both the Right and the Left. Guardianship should not be a death ship. People like Terri Schiavo are persons under the law, and they deserve constitutional protection."

"...The disability community is grateful that so many in Congress supported Terri Schiavo’s right to live, even though we are concerned about the precedent they set. We would like to see them follow up with the same level of concern for making sure we can provide care and support for the millions of Americans with disabilities by supporting Medicaid Community Attendant Services and Supports Act, which would allow people receiving Medicaid funding to have a life, not just stay to alive.– We call on them to ensure continued appropriate funding of Medicaid and other programs that people need..."

"...Terri Schiavo’s case is every family’s nightmare. Disability doesn’t have to be a nightmare. Even if our nation disagrees on how we define compassion, we must certainly agree that all lives are equal under the law."

Amen. Thank you Steve Eidelman from "Arc of the United States" for your group's articulate and thought provoking op-ed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7287283/#050325a

(( looking for the whole & entire piece ... ))

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 08:35 AM

Perhaps after the autopsy is done, questions will be answered and the real extent of her PVS and what-not will be revealed.

YNKYH8R

03-29-2005, 08:58 AM

YNKYH8R - how would this fit in with "The need of the many outway the need of the few or the one" scenerio ??
It really depends on which side of the fence you sit on. Some people debate whether a feeding tube is considered extreme measures or not. Then there are the rights of the spouse or guardian and the rights of the patient.
The rights of the patient don’t end. That is why we have guardians and spouses to speak for us. On top of the extreme measures one has to take into account what were the patient’s last wishes; NOT what are the wishes of the family, or parents. (There are no family or parent rights to my knowledge.)
This is a case of the needs of the many are greater than the needs of the one because Terri has no other needs other than to die. Michaels fight for Terri will ensure (hopefully) that the right to die, spouse rights, and the right not to have the government interject into our personal lives will remain clear. We all have a right to live, even the disabled. But we also have the right to die. Denying Terri’s death is denying her right to die.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 02:26 PM

Spouse as next of kin has deep roots
Michael Schiavo's role has ties to civil, biblical law
Tuesday, March 29, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (AP) -- Marianne Clark cannot understand why Mary Schindler -- the woman who gave birth to Terri Schiavo, dried her tears, and nursed her cuts and bruises -- counts less to the courts than the husband who asked that Schiavo's feeding tube be removed. "You have a husband who hasn't been faithful, and he's the one the judges all listen to," the Sarasota woman said from a protest line outside the hospice where Schiavo was in her second week without food or water. "There's nothing like a mother. A mother knows her child, and nobody else should be able to make that decision."

Some Christian conservatives and others who want to prolong Schiavo's life do not see why her husband gets to decide her fate. But the role of the spouse as next of kin and decision-maker has deep roots in both civil and biblical law. "It's odd that conservative Christians would be making this claim," said Christopher Schroeder, director of the public law program at Duke University. "You can find biblical passages that say once you have a union like this, the union's all that matters. The parents drop out of the picture."

Bob and Mary Schindler say their daughter was a practicing Roman Catholic and would have wanted to be sustained after suffering severe brain damage in 1990. But the courts accepted Michael Schiavo's testimony that his wife's expressed wish was not to be kept alive artificially. "The courts didn't ask Michael Schiavo, 'What do you want to do to Terri?' They asked him, 'What do you think Terri would want you to do?"' said University of Florida research associate Barbara Noah, who lectures on medical law and bioethics.

Michael Schiavo, as the husband, has been allowed to make all kinds of intimate decisions about her care. The courts not only gave him permission to have the feeding tube removed March 18, but let him determine how often she is given Holy Communion, where she will be buried and whether even to allow her parents to attend the funeral.

The practice of giving the spouse decision-making authority stretches back to English common law, when a woman basically became a non-person when she married, said Herma Hill Kay, an expert on marriage law at the University of California at Berkeley. Of course, she said, the laws giving one spouse direction over the other's affairs are now gender-neutral. "Marriage is viewed as a consensual contract entered into by people who have legal capacity to marry, to in effect forsake all other bonds and cleave only to the other person, to take the words from most marriage ceremonies," Kay said.

Clark and other protesters have accused Michael Schiavo of violating "God's law" by withholding nourishment from his wife and by having had two children over the years with the girlfriend with whom he lives. But the legal tradition now separating Terri Schiavo from her parents' presumed protection also has a foundation in biblical law. In Genesis 2:24, it reads: "Therefore, a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."

Terri Schiavo had the right to leave written instructions giving someone else control over her medical care, and that person would have taken precedence over the husband, Noah said.

In the absence of written instructions, the spouse generally gets precedence over the parents, on the presumption that the spouse lived with the incapacitated person and was most familiar with the patient's recent thinking, Noah said. In the case of the Schiavos, they were married nearly six years before Terri Schiavo was stricken.

If she had become incapacitated after a whirlwind Las Vegas courtship and wedding, Noah said, estate law would still probably have upheld her husband as her sole legal heir. But his opinion about what she would have wanted done with the feeding tube would probably not have carried much weight in court. "Things might have come out a lot differently," Noah said.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/shiavo.law.ap/index.html

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=Jolie Rouge]Husband seeks autopsy on Terri Schiavo
Fight over brain-damaged woman moves to Washington
Monday, March 28, 2005

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo's husband has asked that an autopsy be performed on his wife after she dies so that a full report can be done on the extent of her brain damage, an attorney for Michael Schiavo said Monday.

Attorney George Felos said the autopsy will be performed by Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the chief medical examiner of Pinellas County.

Terri Schiavo, who hasn't had water or nutrients since March 18, is likely to die by week's end, doctors have said.

Now 41, Terri Schiavo collapsed in 1990 from cardiac arrest and suffered brain damage because of lack of oxygen. She has been in the center of a decade-long legal tug-of-war between her husband and guardian, Michael, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Michael Schiavo maintains his wife would not want to be kept alive in her condition, while her parents claim she could improve with intense therapy.

Schindler supporters in Florida and Washington appealed Monday to have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted.

Bob Schindler spoke to reporters Monday after visiting his daughter at her hospice in Pinellas Park. "She's failing, but she's still with us," he said. "She has to be saved. I plead again that the powers-that-be don't give up on her. We haven't given up on her and she hasn't given up on us."

Terri Schiavo's sister said she "is wide awake and very responsive."

"She recognizes me," Suzanne Vitadamo said Monday. "She's weaker but she's still trying to talk."

Felos said he visited with Terri Schiavo Monday and that she appeared "very calm. I saw no evidence of bodily discomfort whatsoever," he said.

He said her condition had changed little from his last visit on Saturday. "Terri's eyes do look more sunken," Felos said. "And her breathing was a little on the rapid side."

He described her pulse as "thready," or slow, and said she had not urinated since Sunday.

CNN medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, a neurologist, said that is a sign her kidneys are failing and that she has reached a point where, even if the feeding tube was reinserted, it likely wouldn't help.

....

Felos also countered accusations that a brain scan has never been performed on Terri Schiavo. He said CAT scans of her brain were introduced in trials in 2000 and 2002, showing that her cerebral cortex was "gone."

Felos said Michael Schiavo decided to come forward with the autopsy plans for Terri Schiavo after "opponents to carrying out her wishes" suggested Michael Schiavo had an ulterior motive in his plans to cremate his wife.

CNN's Ed Henry and Bob Franken contributed to this report.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/28/schiavo/index.html

Autopsy Can Shed Light on Schiavo Case
By MALCOLM RITTER
AP Science Writer

An autopsy can't establish a diagnosis of persistent vegetative state by itself the way it can show cancer, but it could provide evidence to support that diagnosis in the case of Terri Schiavo, experts say.

George Felos, the attorney for Schiavo's husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said this week that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County had agreed to perform an autopsy. He said Michael Schiavo wants definitive proof showing the extent of the brain damage.

Doctors have said Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, which means she is awake but not aware of herself or her surroundings. But a Florida neurologist asserted in a court affidavit last week that he believed it's more likely she's in a ``minimally conscious state.'' Someone in that condition can occasionally follow a simple command or try to use an object, such as a comb, correctly.

The diagnosis of persistent vegetative state is chiefly based on behavior rather than a definitive biological test. But a close look at Schiavo's brain could shed light on whether the diagnosis was correct, experts said. ``If there's very extensive brain injury, it would be hard to accept another diagnosis as being conceivable,'' said Dr. Roger Albin, a neurology professor and director of the brain bank at the University of Michigan Medical School.

Dr. Karen Weidenheim, chief of neuropathology at the Montefiore Medical Center in New York, said that while she can't comment on the Schiavo case specifically, a brain autopsy can provide some support to such a diagnosis. ``An autopsy would show the extent of brain damage in a person,'' she said. ``There is information on the patterns of brain damage in persistent vegetatives states, and the results in a given patient could be compared to that known data. And it could be stated whether it was consistent or not. But that's all the farther one could go.''

Terri Schiavo's family also has suggested that an autopsy might confirm their claims that her husband abused her before her collapse 15 years ago, an accusation he has repeatedly denied.

Autopsies can detect whether an adult's bones had broken and healed, even many years ago, said Dr. Michael Baden, chief forensic pathologist for the New York State Police. They can't by themselves reveal how long ago any breaks occurred, but X-rays from an earlier time period could shed light on that, he noted.

03/29/05 16:59

http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?floc=ne-main-9-l1&flok=FF-APO-1110&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20050329%2F1659378980.htm&sc=1110

"He said Michael Schiavo wants definitive proof showing the extent of the brain damage." but the experts say that there is no way to "prove it". And if there is insuffecient damage to justify what has been done to Terri ?? What is he going to say ? "Opps, sorry.... my bad .... Do Over ?? "

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 02:47 PM

Jesse Jackson joins fight over feeding tube
Tuesday, March 29, 2005

:rolleyes:

PINELLAS PARK, Florida (CNN) -- The Rev. Jesse Jackson arrived Tuesday at Terri Schiavo's hospice and called on Florida lawmakers to have the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube reinserted.

"This is one of the profound moral, ethical issues of our time, the saving of Terri's life," the civil rights leader said. "And today we pray for a miracle."

Schiavo, 41, hasn't had water or nutrients since March 18 and is likely to die by week's end, doctors have said.

Jackson said he contacted Schiavo's husband and legal guardian, Michael Schiavo, to request a visit with her, but "he said he thought no."

Michael Schiavo had no immediate reaction to Jackson's comments. Schiavo has said his wife would want the tube removed, and he has called on outsiders to stop trying to violate her wishes.

Jackson said he is "sensitive" to the struggles and pain that both Michael Schiavo and Terri Schiavo's parents and siblings, the Schindlers, are undergoing. He said it is his belief that Terri Schiavo should be kept alive. "While law is important, law must be tempered with mercy to have justice," he said.

Jackson said he spoke with several state senators, pushing them to pass emergency legislation, and plans to contact more senators. While he has sided with the Schindlers, Jackson said in a statement last week that he had "serious misgivings about the appropriateness of Congress intervening with the legal court process on a specific, individual matter."

That statement followed congressional legislation signed by President Bush that allowed federal courts to review state court decisions in the case. The federal courts refused to overturn the state courts' decision.

In his statement, Jackson added, "a consistent moral and ethical position would extend a feeding tube to all who are confronted with starvation -- to demand public, government policy to feed the hungry."

Jackson traveled to Florida at the invitation of Bobby Schindler, Terri Schiavo's brother. While Jackson was speaking to reporters, an apparent protester slipped past police into the heavily guarded hospice before he was arrested by police. Officers used a Taser stun-gun to apprehend the man, who police said was Dow Pursley, a family therapist. Capt. Sanfield Forseth with the Pinellas Park Police Department said the man would be taken to Pinellas County Jail and charged with attempted burglary and resisting arrest without violence.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/schiavo/index.html

Kyla Kym

03-29-2005, 03:56 PM

Perhaps after the autopsy is done, questions will be answered and the real extent of her PVS and what-not will be revealed.
That's assuming they will have an honest examiner doing the autopsy.

Don't know if any of you remember right after Clinton became president the scandal that broke out and was hushed up pretty quickly about the Arkansas state medical examiner faking the autopsy reports for several victims that Clinton's mother had killed? I remember this all to well because one of the victims was a girl I knew very well. She was my first cousins, first cousin. I also went to school with her. Her name was Suzi Deer and I will never forget opening up the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette one night to see a huge picture of this girl 10 years after her death! And the article was about the cover up. Clinton's mother was the nurse that tried to put the breathing tube down into Suzi's lungs that night. Suzi drowned on her own blood, but the state medical examiner at that time put her death as head trauma. Bill Clinton was the governor of Arkansas at that time when this happened.

So this one could be paid off just as easily as that one was.

I think it's horrible that her husband is already talking about doing autopsy's and cremating her before they have even finished killing the poor girl.

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 05:23 PM

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 05:33 PM

I think it's horrible that her husband is already talking about doing autopsy's and cremating her before they have even finished killing the poor girl.
When do you think it would be appropriate to make arrangments? Last minute? Most people that are alive and well at least have their burial plots bought and alot have their funerals paid for or are paying for it. And alot of those that want to be cremated have that arranged and are paying for it or have it paid for already so their loved ones don't have to absorb their "death charges". I think it is very appropriate for this to be planned at this time. She is going to die, it is necassary. I am not sure of the importance of an autopsy but, if he wants one performed then its his right. I think its a good thing for him to do at least offer, it can't be easy on him either.

Jaxx

03-29-2005, 05:33 PM

her husband will have an autopsy performed when she dies to prove the
extent of the brain damage

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0329/schiavo_ap.html

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 05:57 PM

That's assuming they will have an honest examiner doing the autopsy.

Must you find offense in everything that you do not agree with? BTW...I don't mean to offend mind you. I just notice a trend.

If the Medical Examiner were to "fudge" the findings he/she would be risking their license to practice...reputation...etc.

By law the Husband has final word of what is done with his Wife...and had stood up in court time and time again.

I don't agree with all the Husband is doing, but really? Would you want to "live" as Terri has for the last 15 years? I wouldn't. And I won't make my Chronically Ill daughter if ever put in the situation wait 15 years to die if the doctors' told me there was no hope of recovery as Michael and Terri's parents', siblings have been told time and time again.

Everyone has the right to DIE in such situations.

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 05:58 PM

her husband will have an autopsy performed when she dies to prove the
extent of the brain damage

http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0329/schiavo_ap.html
Thank you!!! :)

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 06:09 PM

Kyla Kym

03-29-2005, 06:15 PM

Must you find offense in everything that you do not agree with?
Well, now ain't that the pot calling the kettle black! :rolleyes:

Must you make sure and pounce on anyone that thinks differently than you about this issue?

And what trend do you see with my whole 2 post on this entire thread??? Hmmm??? that I have my own opinion? How many times have you posted on this thread?

I wasn't attacking anything you said. I only commented on a subject you brought up and stated something that I was thinking. Nothing more, nothing less. :rolleyes:

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 06:19 PM

Terri Schiavo's sister said she "is wide awake and very responsive."

"She recognizes me," Suzanne Vitadamo said Monday. "She's weaker but she's still trying to talk."

This should clear up the questions about how painful and such it is to die of starvation and dehydration...day 12 and family isn't saying she is hurting.

So you are willing to take their assessment that she is as far as comfort - but you disregard the rest of the statements -- that Terri is responsive and recognises them ?? If she is responding to outside stimuli AT ALL then she *is* in a minimal conscious state NOT PVS and what they are doing is WRONG.

Someone asked if I was willing to take care of her, feed her ect... HER PARENTS; HER BROTHER'S AND SISTER'S ARE willing to take care of her so that M. can "move on"....

My niece can not swallow anything beyond Stage 2 Baby Food - anything else and she gags, she can't feed herself ... is this enough to sentence to death ??

Kyla Kym

03-29-2005, 06:25 PM

When do you think it would be appropriate to make arrangments? Last minute?.

Yes, I do think they should wait until the last minute. Whats the rush? I mean they sure aren't getting in any big rush to finish killing her off. They are taking weeks to slowly kill her. I don't see what it would hurt to wait until she is dead to make the arangments. Just think how her family feels to hear or read about Terri going to be autopsyed and creamated when they see her still laying their breathing.

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 06:34 PM

Just think how her family feels to hear or read about Terri going to be autopsyed and creamated when they see her still laying their breathing.

Actually the Parents' and siblings want an autopsy to be performed. Not only said to the press but a close personal friend of mine whom lives in Clearwater, FL.

btw I lived in the Clearwater/Dunedin Florida area from 1981 to 1989.

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 06:35 PM

So you are willing to take their assessment that she is as far as comfort - but you disregard the rest of the statements -- that Terri is responsive and recognises them ?? If she is responding to outside stimuli AT ALL then she *is* in a minimal conscious state NOT PVS and what they are doing is WRONG.

Someone asked if I was willing to take care of her, feed her ect... HER PARENTS; HER BROTHER'S AND SISTER'S ARE willing to take care of her so that M. can "move on"....

My niece can not swallow anything beyond Stage 2 Baby Food - anything else and she gags, she can't feed herself ... is this enough to sentence to death ??
Good point but to answer, No! I was pointing out that her family (sister) doesn't think she is in pain, but numerous others on this board feel she is in pain, so if they thought her family didn't think she was in pain then hopefully that would lessen the weight on their hearts.
I was the one asking and no her parents at one time had Terri at home and they couldn't take care of her. So she has to remain in a hospital type setting (from articles I have read.) I suppose they could turn a room in their house into this type setting and either quit their jobs and care for her or hire outside help (which means they wouldn't be the ones caring for her.)

As far as your neice, If her parents wanted her to pass on then that would be their choice, not yours, not mine, not the government. Unless of course she was married then it would be up to her husband. But out of all fairness, this isn't about your neice and keeping her alive. Your neice was born this way Terri wasn't, see the difference? Your neice can have babyfood, Terri can't. Does your neice lay in bed 24/7? Do she truly respond to her parents? I do not think it is fair at all to compare your little neice to this adult woman that wasn't born this way.

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 06:44 PM

Yes, I do think they should wait until the last minute. Whats the rush? I mean they sure aren't getting in any big rush to finish killing her off. They are taking weeks to slowly kill her. I don't see what it would hurt to wait until she is dead to make the arangments. Just think how her family feels to hear or read about Terri going to be autopsyed and creamated when they see her still laying their breathing.
Sorry but her parents brought this out for the world to hear about it. They are the one that contacted the press and paraded her all over the TV's, radio, and internet. They don't mind putting things in the media that hurt Terri. What if by some HUGE miracle she some how grew a new brain and was up and about "normal", how do you think she would feel knowing she was made to be a circus freak and that everyone went against her wishes? Maybe it wouldn't hurt you to wait to the last minute but these people love Terri and even though they know she is dying and are ready for it, it will still hurt them all when she finally does pass. I just feel that its very smart to have it prearranged. Can you imagine the media fury when she does go? All the acts of violence towards people, the anguish, the pain, no one will be thinking straight.

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 06:44 PM

As far as your neice, If her parents wanted her to pass on then that would be their choice, not yours, not mine, not the government. Unless of course she was married then it would be up to her husband. But out of all fairness, this isn't about your neice and keeping her alive. Your neice was born this way Terri wasn't, see the difference? Your neice can have babyfood, Terri can't. Does your neice lay in bed 24/7? Do she truly respond to her parents? I do not think it is fair at all to compare your little neice to this adult woman that wasn't born this way.

Well said.

Two totally different situations but an attempt to mesh the two into the same situation.

Yet, after the autopsy is done answers will follow and then the world will know the truth.

kidzpca

03-29-2005, 06:47 PM

Actually the Parents' and siblings want an autopsy to be performed. Not only said to the press but a close personal friend of mine whom lives in Clearwater, FL.

btw I lived in the Clearwater/Dunedin Florida area from 1981 to 1989.

Willow

03-29-2005, 06:53 PM

I also heard that Terri's parents want the autopsy done as well. It's not just Michael who wants it done.

Kyla Kym

03-29-2005, 07:09 PM

Sorry but her parents brought this out for the world to hear about it. They are the one that contacted the press and paraded her all over the TV's, radio, and internet. They don't mind putting things in the media that hurt Terri.
I don't think her family was doing that to hurt Terri, it was more like a desperate plea for help to save their daughter from being killed. If someone was trying to kill my son I would probably do anything within my power to keep him alive. Especially if I believed in my own heart there was still a spark of him inside that body.

What if by some HUGE miracle she some how grew a new brain and was up and about "normal", how do you think she would feel knowing she was made to be a circus freak and that everyone went against her wishes?
And if by some huge miracle as you suggested that she might grow a brain back. I really don't think she would hate her family for fighting for her life. I think she would be so greatful to them for not giving up on her. I think she would consider herself one lucky lady for having people who love her that much!!!

YankeeMary

03-29-2005, 07:58 PM

I don't think her family was doing that to hurt Terri, it was more like a desperate plea for help to save their daughter from being killed. If someone was trying to kill my son I would probably do anything within my power to keep him alive. Especially if I believed in my own heart there was still a spark of him inside that body.

And if by some huge miracle as you suggested that she might grow a brain back. I really don't think she would hate her family for fighting for her life. I think she would be so greatful to them for not giving up on her. I think she would consider herself one lucky lady for having people who love her that much!!!
If it could happen and I was in Terri's place you better believe I would be mad as heck with my family for doing me that way. They might not have intentionally set out to hurt Terri, but by planning a funeral that is definatly going to be needed wasn't arranged to hurt her parents either. IMO even if it was a plead for help it was still wrong wrong wrong to display her they way they have, for pete's sake, thanks to their selfishness I now know when the last time Terri urinated...how is that showing any kind of respect, kindness or love for anyone? She has lost all dignity. Such a shame all because they can't accept facts (I really feel for them though, but I certainly do not agree with them, it would be extremely hard to let go).

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 08:23 PM

I was the one asking and no her parents at one time had Terri at home and they couldn't take care of her.

Where and when was this ?? From all the records I have viewed, M. has not allowed Terri out of his "care" and authority since the collapse.

Yet, after the autopsy is done answers will follow and then the world will know the truth.

But unfortunately it won't bring Terri back....

Brain injuries are very complex, which is part of the reason that the expert opinions are so varied. WHY NOT err on the side of life ? She *might* recover somewhat -- given intensive therapy. She will not recover from "dead". Several people have commented that her soul has gone on, that Terri "died" 15 years ago .... so why are you so against the idea of Terri's body being fed - out of respect if nothing else ?

Terri's spouse has said that she expressed her wishes to him, several other people have said that her views where the opposite - since you can't change the results once sh is dead - why not err on the side of life ?

M. has had his lawyers, her family has had theirs - when was anyone appointed to look out for Terri's best interests ? ( Sorry, the fact that M. filed for her feeding tube removal and a marriage license at the same time is evidence of a classic conflict of interest. ) Monies from Terri's malpractice suit - which was to pay for her medical care - instead paid for M's lawyers to "manage the media" -- and this was back in the early days of the court case ... BEFORE they even contacted Terri's parents. You don't see something monumentaly WRONG with this ?

As far as my niece - it DOES concern her. Her parents are older, and it will probaly be her sisters or someone else to make any such descions for her -- and I can not believe that you can justify "quality of life" as a reason to starve someone to death because they can not feed themselves. Exspecially when the ONLY person to benefit from that person's death is the one who make the call to withhold food and water.

Kyla Kym

03-29-2005, 08:25 PM

If it could happen and I was in Terri's place you better believe I would be mad as heck with my family for doing me that way. They might not have intentionally set out to hurt Terri, but by planning a funeral that is defiantly going to be needed wasn't arranged to hurt her parents either. IMO even if it was a plead for help it was still wrong wrong wrong to display her they way they have, for pete's sake, thanks to their selfishness I now know when the last time Terri urinated...how is that showing any kind of respect, kindness or love for anyone? She has lost all dignity. Such a shame all because they can't accept facts (I really feel for them though, but I certainly do not agree with them, it would be extremely hard to let go).You sure like to argue don't you? !! LOL :p
But anyway, it seems your main problem with this is she lost her dignity (I've seen you post about that over and over again). But the thing that bothers me is I can't see the evil in losing's ones dignity, if it meant that someone was trying to save my life because they strongly and truly believe that I was worth saving. If someone was trying to save my life and fight so hard for me, I wouldn't care if they showed me peeing on national TV. Life is really short, even if it is being left in her condition. She has all of eternity once she leaves this earth so what's the difference if she was to finish out her life on earth with a feeding tube and in her condition. It would just be a drop in the bucket when you consider afterwards you will have all of eternity. I don't think her family would do anything in the world to hurt her, so that's why I believe what they say and the reason I believe they are fighting so hard. They don't look like idiots, I think they have as much common seance as you do, and if they really thought their daughter was truly totally brain dead then they wouldn't want to keep her body here like that. Here parents raised her, had her for 20 something years before she married that man. She was with him a mere 5 years before this happened to her and I can't help but think her parents have her best interest at heart and he doesn't. Now YankeeMary that's what I believe, and if you don't then that's your problem. But I'm through arguing with you now because nothing you or anyone else will say is going to change my opinion on the matter.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 08:27 PM

was still wrong wrong wrong to display her they way they have, for pete's sake, thanks to their selfishness I now know when the last time Terri urinated...how is that showing any kind of respect, kindness or love ...

Sorry, you have M's lawyer Felos to thank for that tidbit of information. Of course, he has publicly refered to Terri has a "houseplant", so what more can you expect. He is looking out for M's best interests and his own ...

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 08:47 PM

He said the Schindlers didn't meet the required legal standard under each of their new claims:

That Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband, violated the Americans with Disabilities Act by refusing to provide her rehabilitation. The judge said that applies to "public entities" and Michael Schiavo isn't one.

That the hospice caring for Terri Schiavo violated federal rehabilitation law by failing to reinsert the food and water tubes. The judge said the hospice wasn't discriminating, it was complying with an earlier court order.

That clear and convincing evidence of her wishes wasn't presented in earlier court action. Yes it was, Whittemore said.

That state judge George Greer violated the Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" by withholding nutrition. Whittemore said that applies only to people convicted of a crime.

To pursue this last statement to it's legal and insane end : if withholding nutrition does not violate the Constitution's ban on "cruel and unusual punishment" because Whittemore said that applies only to people convicted of a crime then the parents who have been arrested for starving their children as a form of discipline can not be charged under this ruling.

This is why legal precedent must be so carefully watched.

March 22, 2005
Thomas Sowell
‘Cruel and unusual’

www.NewsAndOpinion.com

If the tragic case of Terri Schiavo shows nothing else, it shows how easily "the right to die" can become the right to kill. It is hard to believe that anyone, regardless of their position on euthanasia, would have chosen the agony of starvation and dehydration as the way to end someone's life.

A New York Times headline on March 20th tried to assure us: "Experts Say Ending Feeding Can Lead to a Gentle Death" but you can find experts to say anything. In a December 2, 2002 story in the same New York Times, people starving in India were reported as dying, "often clutching pained stomachs."

No murderer would be allowed to be killed this way, which would almost certainly be declared "cruel and unusual punishment," in violation of the Constitution, by virtually any court.

Terri Schiavo's only crime is that she has become an inconvenience — and is caught in the merciless machinery of the law. Those who think law is the answer to our problems need to face the reality that law is a crude and blunt instrument.

Make no mistake about it, Terri Schiavo is being killed. She is not being "allowed to die."

She is not like someone whose breathing, blood circulation, kidney function, or other vital work of the body is being performed by machines. What she is getting by machine is what all of us get otherwise every day — food and water. Depriving any of us of food and water would kill us just as surely, and just as agonizingly, as it is killing Terri Schiavo.

Would I want to be kept alive in Terri Schiavo's condition? No. Would I want to be killed so slowly and painfully? No. Would anyone? I doubt it.

Every member of Terri Schiavo's family wants her kept alive — except the one person who has a vested interest in her death, her husband. Her death will allow him to marry the woman he has been living with, and having children by, for years.

Legally, he is Terri's guardian and that legal technicality is all that gives him the right to starve her to death. Courts cannot remove guardians without serious reasons. But neither should they refuse to remove guardians with a clear conflict of interest.

There are no good solutions to this wrenching situation. It is the tragedy of the human condition in its most stark form.

The extraordinary session of Congress, calling members back from around the country, with the President flying back from his home in Texas in order to be ready to sign legislation dealing with Terri Schiavo, are things that do us credit as a nation.

Even if critics who claim that this is being done for political or ideological reasons are partially or even wholly correct, they still miss the point. It is the public's sense of concern — in some cases, outrage — that is reflected by their elected representatives.

What can Congress do — and what effect will it have? We do not know and Congress does not know. Those who are pushing for legislation to save Terri Schiavo are obviously trying to avoid setting a precedent or upsetting the Constitutional balance.

It is an old truism that hard cases make bad law. No one wants all such cases to end up in either Congress or the federal courts. But neither do decent people want an innocent woman killed because she was inconvenient and a court refused to recognize the conflict of interests in her legal guardian.

The fervor of those who want to save Terri Schiavo's life is understandable and should be respected, even by those who disagree. What is harder to understand is the fervor and even venom of those liberals who have gone ballistic — ostensibly over state's rights, over the Constitutional separation of powers, and even over the sanctity of family decisions.

These are not things that liberals have any track record of caring about. Is what really bothers them the idea of the sanctity of life and what that implies for their abortion issue? Or do they hate any challenge to the supremacy of judges — on which the whole liberal agenda depends — a supremacy that the Constitution never gave the judiciary?

If nothing else comes out of all this, there needs to be a national discussion of some humane way to end life in those cases when it has to be ended — and this may not be one of those cases.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 08:54 PM

Killing Terri Schiavo
March 25, 2005
Thomas Sowell
www.NewsAndOpinion.com

People who say that the government has no business interfering in a private decision like removing Terri Schiavo's feeding tube somehow have no problem with a squad of policemen preventing her parents (or anyone else) from giving their daughter food or water.

Do those who want to keep the government out of private decisions think that the police are not the government? Do they think that the judges who authorized this are not the government?

Sadly, this is not the only Alice-in-Wonderland confusion of words and deeds in this tragic case.

We are being told that Terri Schiavo is being "allowed" to "die a natural death." Such an argument might make some sense if this were a terminally ill person. But Terri Schiavo is not dying from anything other than a lack of food and water, from which any of the rest of us would die.

She is not dying a natural death. She is being killed.

What is being kept alive artificially is the liberal media version of events. One side of this story is being repeated endlessly, as if it were gospel, but anyone saying something different — including doctors and nurses who have actually seen or taken care of Terri Schiavo — is unlikely to be reported.

The nature of death by starvation and dehydration is also being depicted as "gentle" in the words of the New York Times — the same New York Times which in 2002 reported starving people in India dying "clutching pained stomachs."

This "gentle" death is the story line in the liberal media but a priest who has actually seen Terri Schiavo tells a wholly different story of her visibly deteriorating condition. If this is such an easy death, why not videotape it and show those of us who are less enlightened how mistaken we are? Instead, there is a ban on anyone's photographing Terri as she dies.

Despite the oft-repeated claim that Terri Schiavo is being "allowed" to die, supposedly in accordance with her own wishes, the only person who says that these were her wishes is the one person who wants her dead and who personally stands to benefit from her death — her husband, Michael Schiavo.

When Sean Hannity said this on the Fox News channel's "Hannity & Colmes" program, he was assured by a lawyer who was defending the removal of the feeding tube that Michael Schiavo was not the only one to hear Terri say this. But, when Hannity demanded to know the name of just one other person, the lawyer followed an old lawyer's maxim: "When your case is weak, shout louder!" He shouted and waxed indignant — but did not produce the name of any other person.

This case is one where many people speak with certainty about very uncertain things — and the certainties of one side contradict the certainties of the other. Many seem certain that Terri Schiavo is vegetative, does not understand what is going on around her and cannot respond. But Carla Sauer Iyer, a nurse who attended Mrs. Schiavo for more than a year, has contradicted all of this. Moreover, she has painted a very different picture of Michael Schiavo than the one he presents to the courts and to the media.

But you are not likely to find her eyewitness account of events in the mainstream media.

According to this nurse, Michael Schiavo complained that his wife wasn't dying fast enough — only the word he used was not wife or woman but a word that cannot be repeated in a family newspaper.

The nurse's sworn statement, under penalty of perjury, is that she reported to the police that she had found Terri in both medical and emotional distress after a closed door visit by her husband — and that she also found a vial of insulin, as well as needle marks on Terri, after Michael Schiavo's visit.

The same mainstream media that will scour the country to find individuals to quote in support of killing Terri Schiavo will not lift a finger to investigate the chilling charges this nurse filed with the police years ago. It might disturb the picture they are trying to paint.

Terri Schiavo is being killed because she is inconvenient to her husband and because she is inconvenient to those who do not want the idea of the sanctity of life to be strengthened and become an impediment to abortion. Nor do they want the supremacy of judges to be challenged, when judges are the liberals' last refuge.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 08:59 PM

Killing Terri Schiavo, Part II
March 28, 2005
Thomas Sowell
www.NewsAndOpinion.com

Liberals have repeatedly used the talking point of how many judges have heard the case of Terri Schiavo. But that is as misleading as most of the rest of what they and the mainstream media have been saying.

When a case goes up to a higher court on appeal, the issue before the appellate court is not whether they agree with the merits of the decision of the lower court. In a criminal case, for example, the issue before the appellate court is not whether the defendant was guilty or innocent, but whether the trial was conducted properly.

In other words, the defendant is not supposed to be tried again at the appellate level. So, no matter how many appellate judges rule one way or the other, that tells you absolutely nothing about the fundamental question of guilt or innocence.

Similar principles apply in a civil case, such as that of Terri Schiavo. Liberals can count all the judges they want, but that does not mean that all these judges agreed with the merits of the original court's decision. It means that they found no basis for saying that the original court's decision was illegal.

What the law just passed by Congress did was authorize a federal court to go back to square one and examine the actual merits of the Terri Schiavo case, not simply review whether the previous judge behaved illegally. Congress authorized the federal courts to retry this case from scratch — "de novo" as the legislation says in legal terminology.

That is precisely what the federal courts have refused to do. There is no way that federal District Judge James Whittemore could have examined this complex case, with its contending legal arguments and conflicting experts, from scratch in a couple of days, even if he had worked around the clock without eating or sleeping. Judge Whittemore ignored the clear meaning of the law passed by Congress and rubberstamped the decision to remove Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.

Nor could the judges on the Court of Appeals have gone through all of this material "de novo" in a couple of days after Judge Whittemore's decision. They have added to the number of judges that liberals can count but they have not followed the law — which is what really counts.

The federal judges have rushed to judgment — in a case where there was no rush legally, despite a medical urgency. Terri Schiavo was not dying from anything other than a lack of food and water. These federal judges could have ordered the feeding tube restored while they gave this issue the thorough examination authorized — and indeed prescribed — by the recent Congressional legislation.

As dissenting Judge Charles Wilson of the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals put it, the "entire purpose of the statute" is to let federal courts look at the case "with a fresh pair of eyes." But, by the Circuit Court's decision, "we virtually guarantee" that the merits of the case "will never be litigated in a federal court" because Terri Schiavo will be dead. Never — regardless of how many judges are counted as talking points.

The liberal line, both in politics and in the media, is that Congress somehow behaved unconstitutionally. All federal courts except the Supreme Court are created by Congress. The Constitution itself gives Congress the authority to define or restrict the jurisdictions of federal courts, including the Supreme Court.

Is the Constitution unconstitutional?

The lessons of this tragic episode are as momentous as they are painful, if only because we should never want to see such a miscarriage of justice again. The issue is not only whether Terri Schiavo should live or die, important as that is.

Another important issue is whether self-government in this country will live or die. Judges who ignore the laws passed by elected representatives are slowly but surely replacing democracy with judicial rule. Meanwhile, the media treat judges as sacrosanct and any criticism of them as almost blasphemy.

All this adds more urgency to the need to put judges on the courts who will follow the written law, not their own notions. We can only hope that the Senate Republicans have the guts to do that.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 09:02 PM

..... that Terri Schiavo's biggest mistake was that she did not kill anyone. If she were a murderer, she would not be allowed to be killed the way she is. Many of those who want her to die would be demanding that she live and many of those who want her to live would be demanding that she die.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell1.asp

hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...........

fatesfaery

03-29-2005, 09:11 PM

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 09:13 PM

THIS IS JUST WRONG...

Michael Schiavo relative reports threat
Tuesday, March 29, 2005

PHILADELPHIA, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- Michael Schiavo's sister-in-law said a man threatened to shoot her and her family if Terri Schiavo dies, Philadelphia police said Tuesday.

Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed by court order March 18. Doctors doubt she will live beyond this week without water and nutrients.

She has been in what courts have ruled as a "persistent vegetative state" since she collapsed in 1990 and suffered cardiac arrest. Her brain was damaged by a lack of oxygen.

Schiavo's husband and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, have waged a long-running court battle over her fate.

Michael Schiavo claims his wife would not want to live in her current condition. Her parents believe she could improve with intense therapy.

Joan Schiavo, who has testified over the years that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to be kept alive in her condition, reported Monday evening that a white car drove by her Philadelphia-area home at 4:30 a.m., 5:10 a.m. and 7 a.m., when she was leaving to go to work, said Cpl. Jim Pauley, a police spokesman.

During the last pass, Schiavo told police, the car stopped and the man inside yelled "murderer," then added, "If Terri dies, I'm coming back to shoot you and your family."

Joan Schiavo is married to William Schiavo, one of Michael's brothers.

Pauley said she described a four-door, early 1990s car, and said the driver was white, in his late 30s with brown hair and a "scruffy" appearance.

Police have been assigned to watch the house, Pauley said.

Michael Schiavo's older brother, Scott, told CNN that he receives threats every time Terri Schiavo's case is in the news. Michael Schiavo also has been the target of threats.

Police have arrested supporters of Terri Schiavo's family, the Schindlers.

Protesters have gathered daily outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, and dozens have been arrested, most of them for stepping over a police line in a symbolic effort to bring Schiavo water.

Tuesday, a man ran past police and made it to the door of the heavily guarded Hospice House Woodside as the Rev. Jesse Jackson was speaking on behalf of the family. Officers used a Taser stun-gun to apprehend the man.

Monday, a man accused of soliciting offers for the murder of Michael Schiavo appeared in federal court in Asheville, North Carolina.

Richard Alan Meywes of Fairview, North Carolina, allegedly circulated an e-mail to friends and members of the news media offering $250,000 for the killing of Michael Schiavo and another $50,000 for the death of Florida state Circuit Court Judge George Greer, who ordered Schiavo's feeding tube removed on March 18.

Meywes' attorney claims he was not serious.

Last week, police arrested an Illinois man they said robbed a gun store in Seminole, Florida, as part of an attempt to "rescue Terri Schiavo."

Michael W. Mitchell, 20, faces charges of attempted armed robbery, aggravated assault and criminal mischief, said Marianne Pasha, spokeswoman for the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.

CNN's Laura Dolan contributed to this report.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/29/schiavo.threats/index.html

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:15 PM

Sunday, March 27, 2005 9:36 p.m. EST
Lieberman Backs Life for Schiavo

Former Democratic vice presidential candidate Joseph Lieberman says if it were up to him, he'd reinsert Terri Schiavo's feeding tube in order to keep her alive.

"You would have kept the tube in?" asked NBC's "Meet the Press" host Tim Russert.

Lieberman, a Demcoratic U.S. senator from Connecticut who ran as his party’s vice presidential nominee in 2000, replied, "I would have kept the tube in."

The exchange began when Russert mentioned Lieberman's Republican House colleague, Rep. Christopher Shays.

Shays said he believed the GOP would suffer "repercussions" from voting last week to try to get the brain-damaged Florida woman's feeding tube replaced.

"This Republican Party of Lincoln has become a party of theocracy. ... There are going to be repercussions from this vote [on Schiavo's constitutional rights]," Shays said. "There are a number of people who feel that the government is getting involved in their personal lives in a way that scares them."

Russert asked Lieberman if he "agreed" with that statement.

"I don't," Lieberman said. And though he said Shays' statement was "a very credible and respectable opinion, the fact is that, though I know a lot of people's attitude toward the Schiavo case and other matters is affected by their faith and their sense of what religion tells them about morality, ultimately as members of Congress, as judges, as members of the Florida state Legislature, this is a matter of law. And the law exists to express our values.

"I have been saying this in speeches to students about why getting involved in government is so important. I always say the law is where we define the beginning of life and the end of life, and that's exactly what was going on here," Lieberman continued.

"And I think as a matter of law, if you go - particularly to the 14th Amendment, [you] can't be denied due process, have your life or liberty taken without due process of law, that though the Congress' involvement here was awkward, unconventional, it was justified to give this woman, more than her parents or husband, the opportunity for one more chance before her life was terminated by an act which was sanctioned by a court, by the state."

Lieberman added, "These are very difficult decisions, but - of course, if you ask me what I would do if I was the Florida Legislature or any state legislature, I'd say that if somebody doesn't have a living will and the next of kin disagree on whether the person should be kept alive or that is whether food and water should be taken away and her life ended - that really the benefit of the doubt ought to be given to life."

In conclusion, Lieberman said, "The family member who wants to sustain her life ought to have that right because the judge really doesn't know, though he heard the facts, one judge, what Terri Schiavo wanted. He made a best guess based on the evidence before him. That's not enough when you're talking about aggressively removing food and water to end someone's life."

"You would have kept the tube in?" asked NBC's "Meet the Press" host Tim Russert.

Lieberman replied, "I would have kept the tube in.

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:27 PM

Tuesday, March 29, 2005 9:18 a.m. EST
Jesse Jackson Blasts Terri's 'Violent' Death

Rev. Jesse Jackson has broken with his fellow Democrats to blast what he said was the "violent" execution of Terri Schiavo, calling it "a great moral and ethical crisis that we should address."

Appearing on MSNBC's "Scarborough Country" Monday night, Jackson said the mistreatment of Schiavo is "worse - more violent and wrong than the convicted's executions."

"This woman's being starved and dehydrated to death," he complained. "Eleven days - no food and no water. This is not right."
"She is not brain dead," noted the man regarded by many as the Democratic Party's conscience. "She is brain impaired. All her vital signs are working."

"And to cut off her food and water his heartless," he admonished.

Jackson spoke out as other top Democrats, like Sens. Hillary Clinton and John Kerry, continued to observe a two week-long self-imposed gag order on the Schiavo case.

He said he'd been asked to intervene in the case by Terri's family, and planned to travel to Florida today to keep vigil outside her hospice.

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:29 PM

Terri Given Morphine to 'Ease Convulsions'

Doctors say that Terri Schiavo was injected with morphine to "ease convulsions" they expected her to suffer as she starves to death.

"Schiavo received two small doses of the opiate since the feeding tube was removed - not for pain, but to ease convulsions," the New York Post reported Tuesday, citing "medical experts" familiar with the case.

Michael Schiavo's attorney George Felos said Terri had been given two 5-milligram doses of morphine, one on March 19 and again on Saturday.
After the second dose Felos told reporters:

"In all the years I've seen Mrs. Schiavo, I have never seen such a look of peace and beauty upon her."

The second morphine injection was administered in response to Terri's "slight moans, grimacing and tensing of the arms," Felos told reporters on Monday.

Terri's father, Robert Schindler, however, expressed concern over the use of the powerful sedative.

"I have a grave concern that they'll expedite the process to kill her with an overdose of morphine," he complained at a Monday press conference. Doctors say that morphine can depress respiration, which could prompt Terri's lungs to shut down early.

A spokesman for Woodside hospice, however, said that wouldn't happen, pledging that staffers "would do nothing to hasten or postpone natural death."

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:38 PM

Sunday, March 27, 2005 8:35 a.m. EST
Money for Terri Went to Attorneys, Michael

According to the Associated Press, Michael Schiavo sued medical professionals who he said failed to recognize symptoms that caused his wife's heart to stop beating, causing her brain damage. As a result, he won a $1.2 million settlement.

At the time, Michael sought the funds with the promise to use the money for Terri Schiavo's care and rehabilitation.

As part of the settlement, Michael Schiavo received $300,000, the rest being earmarked for Terri's care and rehabilitation.

His attorneys say today most of the money designated for Terri is gone, spent on her care and legal bills.

One of his lawyers, Deborah Bushnell, told the AP that more than half of the $700,000 designated from the malpractice award for Terri's care has been spent for that purpose, with the rest going toward litigation.

But that statement is at odds with records that show that lawyers - not medical care - ate up most of the expenditures and have been paid directly from Terri's Medical Trust fund, with the approval of Judge George Greer:

Here’s where most of the money went:

Atty. Gwyneth Stanley: $10,668.05

Atty. Deborah Bushnell: $65,607

Atty. Steve Nilson: $7,404.95

Atty. Pacarek: $1,500

Atty. Richard Pearse (GAL): $4,511.95

Atty. George Felos: $397,249.99

Other - 1st Union/South Trust Bank: $55,459.85

Michael Schiavo: $10,929.95
Total: $545,852.34

These funds, the result of a malpractice suit, were intended solely to provide for Terri Schiavo’s care and rehabilitation, not to pay lawyers to help Michael Schiavo kill his wife.

Schiavo’s primary attorney, George Felos, a professional advocate of mercy killing, has received upwards of $400,000 since Schiavo hired him. This same attorney, at the expense of Terri’s medical fund, publicly likened Terri to a "houseplant" and has used Terri’s case on national television to promote his newly published book.

Jolie Rouge

03-29-2005, 09:40 PM

Where and when was this ?? From all the records I have viewed, M. has not allowed Terri out of his "care" and authority since the collapse.

http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/timeline.htm

September 1990 : Terri Schiavo’s family brings her home, but three weeks later they return her to the College Park facility because the family is “overwhelmed by Terri’s care needs.”

May 1992 : Terri Schiavo’s parents, Robert and Mary Schindler, and Michael Schiavo stop living together. The Schindlers and Michael Schiavo shared a home after Terri's collapse

Also...it seems strange to me that the Schindlers testified for Michael during the malpractice trial. Testified about what a wonderful husband and son in law he was. Now they claim they always suspected he abused their daughter/sister. Now, if I thought a man abused my daughter, I sure wouldn't be testifying on his behalf.

------

In the trial transcripts, M. testifies that "Terri is my life, my everything. Her condition doesn't change who she is, I will always love her and care for her..." He testified that he would go back to school and get a degree in nursing so he could care for her... ect ect ect" .... and he probalbly MEANT it at the time, but that was then and this is now...

They may have rationalized situations .. nobody wants to accept that soemone they love is being treated badly, and the victims of domestic abuse usually lie to cover out of embarressment. I think somethings may have been looked at differently in hindsight.

Look at the way he handled things ... he announced in the newspapers his engagement to the mother of his children within days of getting a court order to remove the feeding tube ....and failed to notify her parents for months. How would you feel if you got a letter in the mail - from an attorney you had never heard of - that a Judge had ruled to remove the feeding tube from your child ??

Thank you for the link & info - must have read so much that it is begining to blur.....

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:41 PM

Sunday, March 27, 2005 8:11 a.m. EST
Lanny Davis: Wrong to Starve Terri

While former first couple Bill and Hillary Clinton have refused to say anything that might help save Terri Schiavo's life, a senior member of their administration strongly condemned Michael Schiavo and the courts Saturday night for starving her to death.

"In this situation on a personal and moral level, I go with the parents who are willing to take care of this young woman," former White House Counsel Lanny Davis told Fox News Channel's Geraldo Rivera. "And I cannot comprehend why this husband is standing in their way."

"I see no reason why the rule of law, or in this case, [why] there shouldn't be an exception to that rule," Davis said, adding that Michael "can't convince me that he's certain of this tragic woman's wishes."
"I have no comprehension as to where he gets his anger from. He's even denied their request for a final Communion," he complained.

The former Clinton counsel even defended last week's attempt by Congress to save Terri, calling it a bipartisan humanitarian effort.

"I hope everybody realizes that Tom Harkin stood up along with Tom DeLay," he noted.

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:43 PM

Sunday, March 27, 2005 7:34 a.m. EST
Schiavo: 'We Didn't Know What Terri Wanted'

In a bizarre statement on the day Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected, Michael Schiavo seemed to inadvertently admit that he had no idea what his wife would have wanted if she became incapacitated.

During an appearance on CNN's "Larry King Live," Michael was asked if he could appreciate the distress of Terri's parents:

"Yes, I do," he replied, according to a CNN transcript. "But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want."
Michael's apparent admission that he "didn't know what Terri wanted" - and that her starvation death is "what we want" - followed by moments previous comments to the contrary:

"Terri is my life," Schiavo told King. "I'm going to carry out her wishes to the very end. This is what she wanted. It's not about the Schindlers, it's not about me, not about Congress, it's about Terri."

The full exchange featuring Schiavo's contradiction went like this:

KING: Michael, what do you expect to happen? Congress is in recess now, they have to come back into special session. The Supreme Court could put a stay on it. What do you think is going to happen?

SCHIAVO: I don't think the Supreme Court is going to put a stay on it. And I hope and implore that everybody call their legislators. They have to stay out of people's personal lives. There's no place for government. Call them and tell them.

KING: Have you had any contact with the family today? This is a sad day all the way around, Michael. We know of your dispute.

SCHIAVO: I've had no contact with them.

KING: No contact at all?

SCHIAVO: No.

KING: Do you understand how they feel?

SCHIAVO: Yes, I do. But this is not about them, it's about Terri. And I've also said that in court. We didn't know what Terri wanted, but this is what we want.

KING: You're not – it didn't cost you anything. This is not something where you're looking to save money?

SCHIAVO: No. There's no money involved. We need to move on from that question. That question has been asked me 50 million times. There is no money! ("Larry King Live," March 18)

janelle

03-29-2005, 09:48 PM

Nazis Used Starvation to Kill

Confounding all conventional wisdom and human experience, many liberal groups and even some medical experts have argued for Terri Schiavo’s death.

They claim that starvation and dehydration are not painful or discomforting for her or anyone undergoing the experience.

In fact, they allege that such victims begin to experience "euphoria" as the victims draw close to death.
If such claims are true, we may have to rewrite the history of such notorious events as the Holocaust – where starvation was the key process by which millions died and were later placed in crematoriums.

The internationally accepted Geneva Convention – which identifies starvation as a war crime – also will have to be rewritten. Ditto for many statements made by reputable organizations, many of them liberal, that have condemned the practice for decades.

Strange Bedfellows

Remember that statement about politics making strange bedfellows? Perhaps such is the case with liberal activists who want Terri to die from starvation and the Nazis who killed 13 million people.

As it turns out, starvation was the primary means of killing unwanted peoples.

Shortly after World War II, a U.S. congressional committee investigated the Nazi Holocaust and found that starvation was the main instrument of torture in the concentration camps.

The Committee notes the prisoners' daily diet "consisted generally of about one-half of a pound of black bread per day and a bowl of watery soup for noon and night, and not always that."

The report continued: "Notwithstanding the deliberate starvation program inflicted upon these prisoners by lack of adequate food, we found no evidence that the people of Germany as a whole were suffering from any lack of sufficient food or clothing. The contrast was so striking that the only conclusion which we could reach was that the starvation of the inmates of these camps was deliberate."

If we believe the New York Times, what’s so bad about the Nazis' starvation tactic?

A Times article relating to Schiavo’s death cited several "experts” who offered the new view on starvation.

"From the data that is available, it is not a horrific thing at all," Dr. Linda Emanuel, the founder of the Education for Physicians in End-of-Life Care Project at Northwestern University, told the New York Times.

The Times also cites Dr. Sean Morrison, a professor of geriatrics and palliative care at Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York, who insists that starvation victims "generally slip into a peaceful coma."

"It's very quiet, it's very dignified – it's very gentle," he adds.

Despite the Times' desire to turn the truth upside down, the facts speak for themselves:

To begin with, there is the long-standing and internationally accepted Geneva Convention: "The prohibition to starve civilians as a ‘method of warfare’ is included in Article 54 of Protocol I and Article 14 of Protocol II."

According to the International Criminal Court, starvation as a means of killing is a war crime. The Court noted: "Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including willfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions' is a serious violation of the laws and customs of war [52]."

The liberal human rights organization Amnesty International has long cited starvation as inhumane. For example, in the aftermath of the Vietnam War, the group claimed that "scores of civilian deaths, predominantly among children, from starvation and injuries [were] sustained during the conflict."
Amnesty International stated at the time that it "condemns in the strongest terms the use of starvation as a weapon of war against civilians as a clear and serious violation of Geneva Conventions that Laos has ratified."

Amnesty International also blasted North Korea after the U.N. reported that some 2 million North Koreans have died from starvation, adding that in total, 50 percent of the population doesn't have enough to eat.

Work And Progress, a liberal Web site, was critical of U.S. involvement in Afghanistan in 2001, and even claimed the U.S. military action there had caused up to 7.5 million Afghans to be threatened with starvation. The site went on to note: "Starvation is, quite literally, torturous. And the equation will seem just about right to many people: the atrocity that the U.S. government is willing to subject a handful of people to on U.S. soil, it is willing to subject millions to in some far off land."

In 2001, Rep. Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., a member of the Congressional Human Rights Caucus, offered up House Resolution 102, backed by three other lawmakers, noting that during World War II, many of the 18,745 American soldiers captured during the war "were subjected to barbaric prison conditions and endured torture, starvation, and disease" by the Axis powers, Germany, Italy and Japan. The treatment of American POWs "violated international human rights principles," said the resolution.

In a report by the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, regarding the "Definition of the Right to Food," the commission recommended "the right to food and nutrition was a human right." The commission also advocated "the right to food in emergency situations" should "be taken into account," to "include the obligation of states to grant access to impartial humanitarian organizations to provide food aid and other humanitarian assistance."

The New York Times may well be remembered as the newspaper that was most outraged over photos of Iraqi terrorist suspects being mistreated by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison – but claimed that starvation was a benevolent way to die.

Of course, if the Times is right – and starvation causes "little discomfort" – the paper may have uncovered a valuable new tool in the war on terror.

One wonders how the Old Gray Lady would react if U.S. interrogators began to starve terrorist suspects in a bid to extract information.