Things That Make You Go Hmmmmmmmmmm????????

[ladybreaker]

ACTIVISTS ON THE ATTACK
Sept. 23, 2003 -- Mecosta County, Mich. The Earth Liberation Front claimed to have left incendiary devices at a pumping station for a water bottling plant owned by Nestle Waters North America.
Sept. 19, 2003 -- San Diego. The Earth Liberation Front claimed responsibility for torching four houses under construction and left a banner reading "Development destruction. Stop raping nature."
Sept. 6, 2003 -- Santa Fe, N.M. The Earth Liberation Front claimed to have spray-painted a third of the SUVs at a Land Rover dealership with such words as "avarice" and "gluttony."
Aug. 26, 2003 -- Sultan. The Animal Liberation Front claimed credit for a raid on a fur farm in which 10,000 mink were released from pens.
Aug. 22, 2003 -- Earth Liberation Front actions in Southern California including in Arcadia at Mercedes-Benz dealer. Ten SUVs were spray-painted with "terrorist," "killer" and "ELF." In Duarte, a Mitsubishi dealership had its building and 20 of its vehicles painted with "ELF" and the phrases "gross
polluter" and "We (heart) pollution." In West Covina, there was a fire at a GM dealership, destroying and damaging several SUVs, including several Hummers. A fire also destroyed a warehouse at the dealership. Messages left there included "I (heart) Pollution," "American Wastefulness" and "ELF".
Aug.1, 2003 -- San Diego. The Earth Liberation Front accepted responsibility for what it called the "largest act of environmental sabotage in U.S. history." Fire caused $50 million in damage to a five-story condominium complex

Just Another Example Of When Animal Protection Is Not Really About Animal Protection At All?
American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act
Bill Number: H.R. 857
HSUS Position: Support
http://hsus.org/ace/13421
Welfare Concerns Prompt AVMA Opposition to House Bill on Transportation and Processing of Horses for Slaughter
Schaumburg, IL The American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) believes HR 857—The American Horse Slaughter Prevention Act—could potentially harm more horses than it saves. An analysis by the AVMA reveals that HR 857, introduced by New York State Representative, John Sweeney, fails to address the welfare of affected horses, fails to ensure levels of funding required to properly care for horses when humane slaughter is removed as an option, fails to recognize professional judgment in the appropriate application of methods of euthanasia for horses, and fails to consider potential environmental concerns associated with disposal of these horses

any thoughts??

[mesue]

I've never Believed that destruction or terrorism was in any way a way to get people to listen to a cause.
But now that those minks are free all I can say is GO MINKS GO, RUN!

[DAVESBABYDOLL]

Originally posted by mesue
I've never Believed that destruction or terrorism was in any way a way to get people to listen to a cause.
But now that those minks are free all I can say is GO MINKS GO, RUN!


me too!


GOOOOOO MINKS!

[ladybreaker]

do you realize the minks will not survive in the wild??

[mesue]

Why not? Even if born and raised in captivity they do have some instincts and though some might not survive their not going to long in that mink farm anyway I bet they are not raising them for anything other than to be killed and their fur harvested, at least loose in the wild they have a chance of survival.

[LunaChick]

I agree with you guys....RUN LITTLE MINKS, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!

[CHERNL]

About 9,000 of the freed mink have been returned to Roesler Brothers Fur Farm since the Aug. 25 break-in, but keeping them alive has been a challenge.

Normally, only siblings are caged together, but workers cannot readily determine which of the recaptured mink are related, said Kate Roesler.

"The mink are fine when they're litter mates together, but when they're not they're quite vicious and they're cannibals," Roesler said. "They do eat each other, and that's what we're battling."

Days after the break-in, starving mink attacked a menagerie of exotic birds, a flock of chickens and even a Labrador retriever.

A few mink have been seen recently eating fish along local rivers and one turned up last week at a fruit stand on the edge of this town about 40 miles northeast of Seattle.

About 1,000 are still missing.

The Animal Liberation

[mesue]

So apparently they can survive on their own.

[nanajoanie]

Run minks!! Run!! Someone should write a poem about the mink freedom run:) Really!!

[zitra]

The Earth Liberation Front accepted responsibility for what it called the "largest act of environmental sabotage in U.S. history." Fire caused $50 million in damage to a five-story condominium complex

So basically they are admitting they are in reality american terrosits?? That is basically what they are doing..I think those that offered that tey were responsible need to be arrested!

[zitra]

Originally posted by mesue
Why not? Even if born and raised in captivity they do have some instincts and though some might not survive their not going to long in that mink farm anyway I bet they are not raising them for anything other than to be killed and their fur harvested, at least loose in the wild they have a chance of survival.

I have heard that since the minks were born in captivity, and are used to being fed by a human, they really have no hunting skills..That is why alot of animal recues don't release animals if they have been in captivity after a certain amount of time, becuase they have forgotten how to fend for themselves.

[ladybreaker]

and-------what about the damages to the other farmer's flocks caused by the minks? or those poor dogs who were attacked?? there are ways to get your point across without causing property damage!!

[mesue]

I still say RUN Mink RUN, run for your little lives. I agree with you Ladybreaker that any form of terrorism is wrong and that this group is doing serious damage and needs to be stopped. But you must understand that while you might see a mink farm as just another form of farming a lot of people do not, they see it as the senseless over breeding and slaughter of minks just to fill the farmers pockets and put mink coats on people who feel the need to display their wealth to society. Turn the world upside down and see it all in a very strange way,if the superior species were the minks and you were in a cage because those minks liked wearing human skin to their parties and we were forced to multiply for the purpose of filling the farmer mink's pockets for our skins. I seriously doubt most people can put themselves in those cages in their mind instead of a mink but if you can even consider such a thought I doubt anyone would like it. Run Mink RUN.

[ladybreaker]

mesue--i somewhat agree with you,but, this is america--life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness--which includes the right to do what you can to earn a decent living as long as it is legal.i,myself, do not wear fur coats--never have, but--if someone else wants to have one,that is thier right to do so--IMHO. animals can't reason,they do not know why they are in a cage and do not know that there are other ways to live. many animals are raised for a purpose. mink are a form of vermin--just like rats!lol if these domestic terrorists have it thier way--all forms of animal use would be outlawed!!

ANIMAL USE DOES NOT EQUAL ANIMAL ABUSE.

ladybreaker

[reckless]

ok, i agree that what these people did was wrong, it was not their property and if they are caught, they should have to pay for the damages. and i also agree that animal use is not animal abuse, but i know that i personally, could go without leather shoes or handbags and i know i dont need a fur coat-there are too many alternative materials out there to make comfortable clothing out of. but, just because it is legal does not make it morally right, and i have to disagree that animals do not have the sense to know that they are being raised in cages. instinctually they do know that they do not belong in cages and they do have emotions and feelings. just like i believe the game roosters you are so proud of raising feel pain when you send them into a fight-like i said, just beause it is legal to raise them, does not make it morally right. imo

[mesue]

I think animals know when their caged, why would you think that an animal would not know? Perhaps thats been their only form of habitat thanks to mankind. The article above posted by CHERNL stated that they were seen eating fish out of the river well they must've had sense enough to figure out how to catch food on their own so evidently they were smart enough to do that and I bet now that the animals have been caught I bet they know they are caged now.

[moogle]

Originally posted by ladybreaker
animals can't reason

ladybreaker

I don't agree with this at all!!!! I've seen cats and dogs that were abused by someone, remember this person years after the abuse happened.

Animals think, feel, and hurt just as we do. Don't believe it? Go to a shelter and look at a cat that has been a "beloved" family pet for years, that someone decided was too much trouble now. Look at the confusion and hurt on the animals face, then tell me they can't reason or feel or think.

[Donnagg123]

Originally posted by moogle
Look at the confusion and hurt on the animals face, then tell me they can't reason or feel or think.

I don't think she said they cannot feel or think. she said they cannot reason. Which is true. I see this as no different than what they do to cows or chickens. We kill them for our selfish needs. We COULD survive without meat. But, no we choose to eat it not because we are starved but because it tastes good. And, NO I am NOT a vegan or a vegitarian. I do eat meat and all that goes along with it. I just see the two situations as not different.

[moogle]

Sorry - I believe they do reason. Maybe not with the complexity that we do, but they can reason.

I've seen my animals act embarassed - which they could not do if they didn't think they looked silly or did something silly - this is a form iof reasoning.

They have all the emotions that we do. Again, maybe not with our complexity, but they have them.

[mesue]

Animals can reason, here at our house the coveted spot to lay is on our laps, we have three little dogs. Me and hubby were watching a movie when Buddy (a yorkie) decided he wanted on a lap too he tried nudging the other two but they growled and refused to move, then Buddy walked over to the window started barking and growling like somebody was outside the other two woke up took off to the window too and Buddy turned around and got on hubby's lap and yawned. If I forget to fill their water bowl they will take their nose and bat it around the kitchen to let me know its empty.

[bulldog6186]

Originally posted by ladybreaker
animals can't reason

ladybreaker




WTF:confused: where do you get your information:confused:

[zitra]

Originally posted by bulldog6186
WTF:confused: where do you get your information:confused:

Not sure where she gets her information but...


Have you ever seen on a nature show where monkeys' use sticks and leaves, and stick them into ant and termite holes, so that they can eat the ants/termites? That is reasoning. No one trained them to do that they learned to do it on their own nature, it was their reasoning and instincts that led them to try it. When lions or tigers are going after prey, and one tiger/lion chases, while the other circles around to block the prey off, that is reasoning.

To me the above is proof that animals CAN reason, maybe not as much as a human, and some animals are smarter/can reason more than others, buit it still doesn't mean that they can't reason....

Further more animals DO have feelings..They can feel embarassed (I am sure that is why my puppy tries to hide in a corner, when he is trying to "go", they can also feel, happy/sad/excited/anxious/scared

[bulldog6186]

Animals can reason, and they do have have feelings. If you have ever been around any animal, you could see all this.

[brumzoo]

I just found this quote & thought I would post it here....


"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The question is not can they REASON, nor can they TALK, but can they SUFFER?"

-- Jeremy Bentham 1748 - 1832

[Azriel_LittleHawk]

did i suddenly fall into a Monty Python skit?

these folks are just mental..and very scary.

[ladybreaker]

if animals could reason--THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY DEAD ONES ON THE SIDE OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! DOGS WOULD NOT BITE CHILDREN,CATS WOULD NOT CLAW-UP FURNITURE,ETC,ETC,ETC.

[Damnifiknw]

Weird thread

[moogle]

Originally posted by ladybreaker
if animals could reason--THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY DEAD ONES ON THE SIDE OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! DOGS WOULD NOT BITE CHILDREN,CATS WOULD NOT CLAW-UP FURNITURE,ETC,ETC,ETC.

You could use the same logic and say that if people could reason, there would be no traffic accidents. Or you could say that people wouldn't hurt other people.

I never said that any animal was as smart or complex as humans, just that they had the same mental abilities (for lack of a better way of saying it) as we do, but to a lesser extent.

Hmmm - I've seen cats look both ways before crossing a road. If dogs were treateded right, and worked with, they would not bite children without the child causing it (and kids do ask for it - I was bitten when I was a child because I wanted to pet a dog that clearly didn't want to be pet). If an animal couldn't reason, they wouldn't be able to figure out how to open doors, or know when something is wrong and to wake people up.

Seems like most people that believe that animals can not reason, or think, are people that have never had animals; or if they did, they pretty much ignored them. That's my opinion.

[zitra]

Originally posted by ladybreaker
if animals could reason--THERE WOULDN'T BE ANY DEAD ONES ON THE SIDE OR IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD! DOGS WOULD NOT BITE CHILDREN,CATS WOULD NOT CLAW-UP FURNITURE,ETC,ETC,ETC.

By the same token..people hurt people, murder people, kids run into the road with out looking, chasing after balls, people would not abuse kids, there would not be cannibals, drug addicts, etc.

[Donnagg123]

Originally posted by moogle
Seems like most people that believe that animals can not reason, or think, are people that have never had animals; or if they did, they pretty much ignored them. That's my opinion.

I personally do not believe this to be true. I mean, our infants when they are first born cannot reason, but most do not ignore them. I believe animals cannot reason, but I treat and love my animals very well. I have 2 cats and 2 guinea pigs. I grew up around animals. This same logic is the same used to say that people who have never had children cannot have any clue about what children are about. This is false logic also. Just because you have never had something does not mean you do not know what it is about.

Also, you mentioned that most believe they cannot think or reason. Thinking and reasoning are two different things. I believe animals can think, and feel, and have all the range of emotions that we do. Does that mean because they feel and think that they have the ability to reason? In my opinion no. The definition of reason is: The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence. It is not that I do not beleive that animals are not capable of thought. I believe they are not capable of rational thought.

[Dolly<3]

Some animals can reason. I saw a thing on Discovery or TLC or Animal Planet (one of 'em! lol) about the smartest animals. I can't remember all of the animals, but I do remember they said parrots have the mentality of a 3 year old. Dogs were on the list, I think. Pigs, squirrels, squid or something squishy, and some others. Chimps of course.

[justme23]

Originally posted by Donnagg123
The definition of reason is: The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence. It is not that I do not beleive that animals are not capable of thought. I believe they are not capable of rational thought.

I am owned by a parrot... she can reason w/ the best of humans. She knows what she wants and in some cases (she's only 2, she's still learning, just like a baby) she can even SAY what she wants. Juice for instance. She sees my cup, she sees me pick up the straw, she's INTELLIGENT enough to KNOW that if she flies to me and says PLEASE, I'll give her the juice in the straw... and then she will tell me THANK YOU. If this isn't intelligent enough for you, I don't know what is!!!

[LunaChick]

All about Alex and other African Greys:

Parrots, and other talking birds, have fascinated mankind since Aristotle. Once thought to be mere mimics, these affable, entertaining and often quite lovable creatures are now known to possess remarkable intellectual abilities. Since 1977, Dr. Irene Pepperberg's studies in Animal Behavior, and Animal-Human communications have provided insight into the capabilities of these animals to talk and to UNDERSTAND.


Dr. Pepperberg currently works with 4 African Grey Parrots. Alex, the oldest, can count, identify objects, shapes, colors and materials, knows the concepts of same and different, and bosses around lab assistants in order to modify his environment! They have begun work with phonics and there is evidence to suggest that, someday, Alex may be able to read. The results of this work have wide-ranging implications for at least three areas:

http://www.alexfoundation.org/