Banning Halloween

[janelle]

The October bacchanalia turns into a religious issue for the nation's public schools

by Deborah Caldwell




You'll see harvest-time pumpkins and hay bales decorating the public schools in Coppell, Texas, this week. But you won't see any ghost or witch costumes, and there won't be a Halloween parade. In fact, you'll barely hear the word "Halloween" mentioned.Educators in this Dallas suburb of 25,000 view the big October bacchanalia as a quasi-religious holiday and have stopped celebrating it--in much the same way schools nationwide have dispensed with Christmas and Hanukkah because of church-state debates.
The children of Coppell are on the cutting edge of a national trend that is turning the old-time celebration of kids, candy, and costumes into an uncomfortable period--like December--that public school administrators simply try to endure.

"I don't think I've been in a school district where the question about Halloween hasn't come up," says Charles Haynes, senior scholar of religious freedom at the Freedom Forum in Washington. "In some cases, they've had lots of parents beginning to complain, and administrators aren't sure what to do. The number of districts just saying no to Halloween is small--but it's growing."

Why? Because as children from different religious and ethnic backgrounds fill the nation's schools, their parents object to celebrating holidays they don't mark at home. In the case of Halloween, many Muslims, some Jews, and most evangelical Christians object to Halloween on religious grounds--and are making their views known.

Haynes got his first queries from educators and parents about Halloween five years ago, but the questions have increased in the last two years. This year, for instance, an evangelical Christian parent in Nashville called Haynes to ask if she could organize an alternative party held in a school classroom. (Yes.) Meanwhile, in Katy, Texas, a principal wrestled with whether or not to disallow Halloween celebrations after parents complained. (He decided to ban the celebrations based on the large number of complaints.)

Conservative Muslims consider Halloween haram (forbidden), since they believe it represents the "shaytan," or devil, and also because it is a non-Muslim holiday. Likewise, religiously observant Jews discourage Halloween celebrations because of the holiday's Christian and pagan (and therefore non-Jewish) roots.

Halloween's roots lie in a Celtic festival, Samhain, celebrated in northern Europe millennia ago. The Celts believed that on Samhain, the souls of the dead returned to their former homes to be entertained by the living. So people built bonfires and offered food and shelter to these spirits to ward off evil spells.

Later, the holiday we know as Halloween evolved from Christian origins: According to legend, Pope Gregory III decreed in the eighth century that the Feast of All Saints (previously celebrated in May) be moved to November 1--the dedication day of All Saints Chapel at St. Peter's Basilica. The day before was the feast’s evening vigil, "All Hallows Even," or "Hallowe’en."

But recently, conservative Christian parents, in particular, have become vocal about their belief that Halloween is a dangerous holiday that glorifies the devil. They have begun demanding that schools stop celebrating Halloween on the grounds that it violates their religious rights.

"For a significant number of people, it represents the full expression of an occultic viewpoint," says Robert Knight, director of cultural studies for the conservative Family Research Council. "If you're going to kick Christian celebrations like Christmas out of the schools, and leave Halloween in, you're going to have a reaction. And if they're going to be evenhanded in not establishing religion in the schools, they're probably going to have to do away with Halloween."

The controversy is also rooted in past hurts. Conservative Christians are angry that this year, following a Supreme Court decision, they can't pray publicly before public high school football games. They're angry that their children are taught evolution in biology class, while the biblical story of creation isn't taught. And they are frustrated that their kids are taught yoga in public-school gym classes and learn about earth-based religious ceremonies and Latin American traditions such as worry dolls--but there can be no religious instruction about Jesus or Christmas or Easter.

Even among people who aren't especially bothered by Halloween, there is a recognition that those who object to it may have a point.

"I'm a good old Baptist girl from East Texas, and we trick-or-treated everywhere. No one ever thought of it as a religious issue," says Coppell elementary school principal Andra Penney.

But, Penney says, she has children from 18 different countries in her school. While some of their parents are merely curious about Halloween, others want nothing to do with it. And there are evangelical Christians who object to it. "We've really wrestled with it," Penney says. "Our district has taken the stance that we'd rather steer away from Halloween and celebrate the harvest."

[janelle]

This is true even though many of Coppell's houses are lavishly bedecked with Halloween decorations for weeks before October 31, and even though the streets of Coppell are mobbed with children and their parents on trick-or-treat night. "If we did the same thing the community does," Penney says, "we'd be having a big blow-out at school." She says that if a child wants to draw a jack-o'-lantern face on a pumpkin, teachers don't stop them--in much the same way, Penney says, that if a child wants to write a Bible verse on a scarecrow, they can do that, too. "But we don't encourage it," she said.Penney uses the month to emphasize imagination and the difference between make-believe and reality. Meanwhile, in one first-grade class, a teacher used a skeleton to teach children about bones. In another class, the teacher built a cave, and the children learned about bats. "Never once did they talk about Halloween," Penney says.
At another Coppell elementary school, the kindergarteners dressed up as animals the first week of October and paraded around the school--but no one mentioned Halloween.

"They do all the same stuff, but they don't use the word 'Halloween,'" says Karen Miles Fezzey, the mother of a Coppell kindergartener. And that's fine with her.

Her 5-year-old son won't go trick-or-treating, but she'll take him to a local Halloween festival with rides and candy. Even that's a big step, because Fezzey didn't celebrate Halloween as a child. "We were forbidden to do any Halloween activities," she says. "In the Bible Belt, that's very common. I remember having friends who would do Halloween activities at school, and my mother would bring other crafts so we wouldn't cut out witch hats or anything."

That "opt-out" strategy has worked well in the past but may be starting to unravel. In the recent Nashville case, Haynes says, the parent who hosted an alternative party in a classroom was told she wasn't allowed to advertise the party publicly--for fear too many other children would choose to attend.

"This has become a time when communities and schools struggle," Haynes says.

Activists argue that celebrating Halloween violates the Constitution's establishment clause on the separation of church and state. Their argument: If we can't have Jesus in December, why can you have witches and Celtic symbols?

Says Haynes: "Good try, but it doesn't make it legally, because schools have long celebrated Halloween as a secular holiday.

"And if a school system does something because a religious group pressures it, that does raise the question of whether government is preferring one religion over another," Haynes says.

But even if a group of parents did manage to pressure a school district to get rid of Halloween celebrations, administrators could legitimately say they merely reworked their curriculum--and a court would not challenge them, Haynes says.

Ultimately, the controversy isn't even about Halloween, he suggests. "It's a bigger story," says Haynes. "It's rarely about whether the bus driver handed out candy dressed in a costume or whether the teacher read 'The Witch of Blackbird Pond.' It's about whose schools are these."

[Unicornmom77]

I have stuggled with halloween for the last couple of years, thanks for a different perspective!

[janelle]

I can see why Christians would not want other religions to celebrate their holidays when ours are banned and brushed aside. I think it would be better if all religions were included at school. Have a parent/teacher conference and pick the holidays that are agreed on. A give and take.

[chooch]

We had an All Hallow's Eve party. My DRE gave me this sheet on the Christian origin of Halloween and it's traditions which I quoted in my parent newsletter.
"On November 1, we celebrate All Saints Day. The saints are considered to be holy and hallow is another word for "holy". Think of the Our Father...."Hallowed be thy name". So if All Saints Day can be called All Hallow's Day, then the night before can be called All Hallow's Eve. And these words came together to become the name Halloween.
How then did Halloween get to be scary?
Long ago, the Celts in England and Ireland celebrated New Year's Day on November 1, so OCtober 31 was an end-of-the-year celebration. On that day, they remembered all those who died during the past year, and they believed that on that night the dead came back to be with the living. The villagers wore masks and costumes to disguise themselves as ghosts and lead the real ghosts out of town with a parade.
This custom was not Christian until Christians spread the idea that, thanks to Jesus' resurrection, we no longer had to fear death or any kind of evil-----so we could even dress up and make fun of death and the things that represent it, like skeletons or things associated with evil like ogres or things may scare us like bats or owls.
But we never had to be afraid of anything, because Jesus is always with us. In the 8th century when Pope Gregory changed the feast of All Saints Day to Novemeber 1, the focus of the night really began to change.
What about trick-or-treating?
Well, the Celts fed costumed people who came to their door on Halloween because they might really be ghosts. Later, Christian children would go door-to-door offering prayers for the dead in exchange for food. They'd ask for 'soul cakes'. Then one Halloween, a cook cut a hole in the traditional soul cake dough, popped it in hot fat, and invented the donut. Since the donut has no beginning or end, it is a reminder of eternal life.
What about the jack-o-lantern?
Travelers who had to go a long distance to Mass for All Saints Day would stop at Christian homes along the way. People would put a candle in the window as a sign that travelers were welcome. Since it was fall and the autumn wind might blow out the flame, they carved out a pumpkin or squash in which to protect it."

[janelle]

Yes, Catholics have turned it into a day of honoring the saints. We go to church the day after Halloween which is All Saints Day to honor all the saints that are in heaven. Each day of the year is a saint day for a particular one but this day honors all the saints who are too numeorus to have a day of their own and, of course, we wouldn't know all the saints by name that are in heaven. It is a Christian holiday for us and the night before is just reserved for the children to have some fun with trick or treating.

It was only when Satanists made it such a scarey holiday and bad things startd happening like the needles in candy and such that people started to question what good it was when so many bad things were happening. So many churches started to have "safe" celebrations for the children. And I think it has helped. We don't hear of so many children getting hurt anymore.

[momfromTN]

Hey, people demand separation of church and state, so if Halloween is considered a holy day by some religions, then it needs to be banned. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, people~! If Christ has to go, so do the gods or whatever of other religions.

[Jolie Rouge]

Question About Religious Tolerance ?

For weeks prior to Oct 31, my son had other children in his grade school telling him that he "would burn in Hell for all eternity if we went Trick-or-Treating"

I called the school and was told that I have to have respect for others Beliefs.


Am I allowed to go tell these kids that if they do not practice *MY* religion or go to *MY* church that they are condemned to eternal damnation ?

Would their parents be so tolerant of me ?

[janelle]

I suppose you could tell them that but then you would be wrong since we don't know where people will spend eternity. Only God knows that.

These kids were wrong as well and their parents should be careful how they talk in front of their children, children do exaggerate things. If I were you I'd tell my children that and then forget it. Kids will be cruel and need to learn better from their parents. I hope their parents know what their children said then it's up to them to reach right or wrong.

[Jolie Rouge]

Actually I told my kids that the other children were jealous because they didn't get a chance to dress in fun costumes and get candy; they were mad because they have to miss the fun. My son ended up feeling sorry for them and took a whole bag of candy to school yesterday to share with the less fortunate.


I was just aggravated that the school was so apathetic in regards to the situation. My son only told me after waking up in the night with nightmares.

[janelle]

Then I think you handled that skillfully. Your son learned a very good lesson about how cruel people can be and how we can turn it around and make it into something good.

I wouldn't depend on schools to handle anything that has to do with morals anymore. They are all secular now. Sad but true. Either you do all the teaching on morals to your children or transfer them to a private school who can teach morals along with the three Rs.

[ginna74]

Hey, people demand separation of church and state, so if Halloween is considered a holy day by some religions, then it needs to be banned. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, people~! If Christ has to go, so do the gods or whatever of other religions.

actually Christmas is a holiday and kids are not in school then... so no I don't think Halloween should be the same then everyone would have quite a few days off a month for each different religion... so if haloween should go then christmas should as well... which I want it to stay so I won't complain about halloween... But I am sure some of the extremists would like to see it gone as it is a horrible thing and everyone who practices it will burn in HELL ok... I don't feel that way lol

[MsSaveALot]

Originally posted by momfromTN
Hey, people demand separation of church and state, so if Halloween is considered a holy day by some religions, then it needs to be banned. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, people~! If Christ has to go, so do the gods or whatever of other religions.

and i read here that halloween is a pagan day and someone posted that the pagans who's day this is, is recognized by the government so halloween should go bye bye. jmho of course

[ginna74]

Actually I told my kids that the other children were jealous because they didn't get a chance to dress in fun costumes and get candy; they were mad because they have to miss the fun. My son ended up feeling sorry for them and took a whole bag of candy to school yesterday to share with the less fortunate.

that was a good way to handle it.... some kids are tought that different means bad and that they will burn down there...so I guess it is just parenting that is getting into some of the kids today. I for am glad they have halloween because if they got rid of that I am sure christmas wouldn't be to far behind. but I don't think it will ever come to that. I would hate to see a school year with no holidays. my hubby's family never celiberated halloween but that was because of his dad's b-day and their religion. But they never shoved it down peoples throats and they were exceptfull of other people...now I have not like my inlaws to much but in that aspect I truely admire their charachter (sp?). when I come accross people like that I am more apt to listen and when people come accross as being one with the higher power and knowing everything I just kind of back away and run....

anyways I think people are teaching their kids to be more intolerant and judgment all the time... it is so sad

[Merry99%]

We always had harvest carnival,and fall festivals,it was never called halloween celebration in school.Christmas break is now called winter holiday.To me this is all like parents at ballgames hatefully screaming at the children to play better as if its a life or death situation,taken away from the children,the kids aren't celebrating witchcraft,they want candy,sadly they aren't celebrating christ at school either but they want christmas present parties LOl commercialism is not going away.If all the "adults get what they want,the children suffer by (IMO) no prayer in school,and by no freedom of choice to participate or not,only NOT,now how is that fair? Whats next no valentines parties because little Jimmies mom doesn't believe in love anymore?:rolleyes:

[curlymae29]

Ok...hope I'm not wading in to deep here.

I don't celebrate Halloween anymore. I used to love Halloween. I loved making costumes. I love the face painting. My kids and I had a great time every year. For several years I decorated my house with scarecrows, pumpkins, ghosts, witches, etc. One year I went so far as to haul dirt from the field and constructed tombstones and turning my front porch into a grave yard. So I most certainly can understand the appeal. It's a lot of fun to dress up and decorate. But as I got older, I started learning more of the meanings of Halloween. I found myself trying to pick out things at Halloween that weren't pagan. I gave up and don't celebrate Halloween. But this is a personal belief for me! I don't celebrate it, but I do believe that as Christians we should us the holiday to reach out to others. But there again, it's my personal belief and it's something the Lord has laid on my heart. As far as others celebrating, so far the Lord hasn't laid anything and until He does, I think I'll be obediant and keep my mouth shut. If He wants to use me, He'll let me know. In the meantime the only thing I can say for sure to a Christian is: If it feels wrong, don't do it.

But the school issue is something else. It doesn't belong in the schools. It is a recognized religious holiday. Most of the symbols of halloween are symbols of pagan worship. If you pick those out, you really don't have anything left. It doesn't belong in the public school system.

Again this is my opinion!

[Jolie Rouge]

Originally posted by curlymae29
Ok...hope I'm not wading in to deep here.

I don't celebrate Halloween anymore. So I most certainly can understand the appeal. It's a lot of fun to dress up and decorate. But as I got older, I started learning more of the meanings of Halloween. I found myself trying to pick out things at Halloween that weren't pagan. I gave up and don't celebrate Halloween. But this is a personal belief for me! I don't celebrate it, but I do believe that as Christians we should us the holiday to reach out to others. But there again, it's my personal belief and it's something the Lord has laid on my heart. As far as others celebrating, so far the Lord hasn't laid anything and until He does, I think I'll be obediant and keep my mouth shut. If He wants to use me, He'll let me know. In the meantime the only thing I can say for sure to a Christian is: If it feels wrong, don't do it.

But the school issue is something else. It doesn't belong in the schools. It is a recognized religious holiday. Most of the symbols of halloween are symbols of pagan worship. If you pick those out, you really don't have anything left. It doesn't belong in the public school system.

Again this is my opinion!


I do not have a problem with it not being in schools - we send to school to learn and we should keep that as our primary focus.

I respect your beliefs and I accept that they are different from my own. I can appreciate someone wanting to share their views with others, since they feel that we are in moral peril. However - I do have a problem with a group of "So- Called-Christian" thugs who gather in little cirles around oness" to them, pushing and shoving to prevent their escape. It is still bullying - even in the name of God; and that is where my religious tolerance comes to s screaching halt.

Why are some children alloewed to do this. They all come from a particular "Evangelical" church, and are quite strident in their veiws. The school refuses to address the matter, but I have an appointment to speak to the Pastor of the church in question.

[janelle]

Jolie, that's nothing more than a bunch of bullies in control of the teachers. They can rationalize it away by blaming religion but it's not religion. Would Jesus do this? NO!!!!! Tell the pastor and hopefully he will not rationalize it away with blaming it on the school. GAAAAA:mad: :mad:

[curlymae29]

quote by Janelle

Tell the pastor and hopefully he will not rationalize it away with blaming it on the school.


If all the children are from his church this should work. But if they aren't then he may find himself on thin ice. It shouldn't be that way, but some people would be offended if a pastor from another church came in and told them their kids weren't behaving like Christians. Depending on the pastor and the church, the pastor might even be offended.

Me...it wouldn't bother me. I would hope that someone would let me know. First of all, I wouldn't want my kids picking on someone, second, I wouldn't want them to tell anyone they are going to hell, and third, I would be concerned that they believe that salvation can be lost!



quote by Jolie Rouge

I do not have a problem with it not being in schools - we send to school to learn and we should keep that as our primary focus.


It would be wonderful if everyone felt this way about all religions. The trouble is, I can't see that happening. Each religion wants only their religion taught and they don't want their kids exposed to other beliefs. (Personally, I didn't want mine exposed until I feel they are more mature, that's why I homeschool. That way I can introduce it when they are ready.)

But where do we draw the line? How much is too much religion? If you allow this, that group is going to be upset, if you allow that, this group is going to be upset. To have a true seperation of church and state (as we hear so many screaming about) then we are going to have to pick out all religions and all symbols of religion.

MHO...that's a joke also! I can't see that happening. Our nation is so steeped in religion and it's in a great deal of our history, literature, etc. So if you draw a line of no mention of religion there is going to be giant gapping holes in the libraries!


quote by Jolie Rouge

I was just aggravated that the school was so apathetic in regards to the situation. My son only told me after waking up in the night with nightmares.

BTW...Besides being a homeschool mom, I'm also a sub teacher. I had a little girl make a remark like this about someone who told a lie. This was very hard to handle because I have to be careful about telling her something is wrong or right about her religion. I have no idea what church she attends and what they teach. Honestly, I think it is a threat her parents use to keep her in line. (Dangerous threat at that!) I choose to quite the entire class and go back to our group reading. Afterwards, during center time, I pulled the child aside and told her that sometimes when we say things like that it hurts other kids feelings and it might be better not to talk about it during class time. But I really have to watch what I say. I couldn't tell her it was wrong. When it comes to religious beliefs, teachers and the principle have a very tight line to walk.

Your principle may have felt this way. While he can address the kids circling another, he may not be able to address the religious aspect. Or, he may have felt that this problem would have disminished on it's own. That by his interference, matters would get worse.

Reguardless, he should have taken the time to talk with you and not dismiss you so quickly. He should have taken the time to explain his actions.

If I've waded out too deep...someone please extend a hand and PULL me back!!!! ;) :) :D

[tikitiki]

<<<pulling curlymae back up>>>>>:D just kidding


you did an explendid job!

:)

[Jolie Rouge]

If I've waded out too deep...someone please extend a hand and PULL me back!!!!

you are doing just fine ;)

[cindylee]

My family quit Halloween, Christmas and Easter because they are all pagan holidays. It is a very personal convicton and I would not say to anyone to do the same as we do.
I am bothered by all the religion in schools, humanism, paganism...ugh. I have to "deprogram" my kids after spending all day around that garbage.

[janelle]

Originally posted by cindylee
My family quit Halloween, Christmas and Easter because they are all pagan holidays. It is a very personal convicton and I would not say to anyone to do the same as we do.
I am bothered by all the religion in schools, humanism, paganism...ugh. I have to "deprogram" my kids after spending all day around that garbage.

Acually, I think you have covered the whole gamet of holidays and religions including non-religions. I guess you don't do anything now. Your children and you must be bored when you can't stand anything that is a celebration.

That is your perogative. I've heard of people taking religion out of holidays but not even celebrating any of them is really going as far as one can go. Guess if it makes you happy it's right for you.:confused: :confused:

[cindylee]

Ravenlost, no offense meant to anyone. My point is that I am tired of having religion forced upon my kids at school, as you may be as well when any Christian ideas pop up. I actually agree with those who want to take religion out of the schools, it is not the school's place at all to teach any child religion. I loathe the schools and the system they have in place, was not singling out anyone at all, just stating my frustration and opinion about what goes on in my kid's schools.

Janelle,
I prefer to keep biblical holidays, feast days such as passover, hannakah, etc. My children are not bored and each celebration paints a beautiful picture of Christ.
:)

[Willow]

Originally posted by cindylee
My family quit Halloween, Christmas and Easter because they are all pagan holidays. It is a very personal convicton and I would not say to anyone to do the same as we do.
I am bothered by all the religion in schools, humanism, paganism...ugh. I have to "deprogram" my kids after spending all day around that garbage.


Christmas and Easter are Pagan holidays? :confused: :confused:

I'm a Pagan and I did not realize that. lol I don't know any Pagans who have celebrated Easter as a Pagan religion. How can you say that Easter is a Pagan holiday. I'm very confused about that. I know a lot of Christians who would be upset to hear that. lol Also are you confusing Samhain with Halloween and Yule with Christmas.

[jaimethepooh]

ok now i'm confused

easter a pagan holiday:confused:

i may be a bear of very little brains, but isn't easter about Christ.
i know i celebrate it with choloate bunnies and hidding eggs for the kids, but i don't ever reading it in a pagan book as a pagan holiday.

[jaimethepooh]

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhh

ok now it makes more sense. i'm still keeping the choloate bunnies.

[curlymae29]

ok now i'm confused

easter a pagan holiday

Some believe that pagan (the term pagan is used to describe any number of non-Christian belief systems) 'Spring Symbols' (not sure how to phrase that) used in the celebration of spring have gotten mixed with the Christian Celebration of Easter.




HILLARD'S ARTICLE reveals that Easter and its customs have ancient and nearly universal origins, roots which were concerned with the most basic aspects of life.

Our friend the Easter Hare (or Bunny, as you prefer) and his cart of eggs are borne of those roots. To know how this myth became associated with Easter requires that we examine Easter's association with a number of ancient symbologies.

LUNAR ASPECT

Easter is not really a solar festival, but rather one of the moon. The name Easter comes to us from the Saxon Eostre (synonymous with the phoenician Astarte), goddess of the moon. From the most ancient times, this goddess was the measurer of time. Her name as we know it (moon) comes from the Sanskrit masófrom ma, to measureó and was masculine (as it was in all the Teutonic languages).

A more important connection can be found exclusively within the hare, who unlike the rabbit is born with his eyes open. The Egyptians called the hare Un, which meant open, to open, the opener. Un also meant period. Thus the rabbit became a symbol for periodicity in both the lunar and human sense of the word. The hare as "opener" symbolized the new year at Easter; and fertility and the beginning of new life within the young.

You can read the full article at:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/1/history-of-easter.html



Here's another site to check out:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spring_equinox.htm

[jaimethepooh]

he he my bunny. my mom likes to hide plastic eggs with money in them, i've always liked easter (of course any holiday with candy and choloate is a good one.)

ok then if every holiday has a background or roots with every type of religion then why is it hard for everyone of diffrent religions to celebrate each holiday according to each own religion and respect everyone else and leave it at that.

[curlymae29]

oops...too slow! Ravenlost beat me to the punch.

Actually Jamie if you research the Holidays and Christian celebration you will find that most are mixed with pagan symbols. My personal belief (just my pitiful opinion) is it really depends on Christian's attitude when celebrating. Are you celebrating the holiday or worshipping another god? Are you putting God in the center of your celebration, which I feel a Christian should do with every holiday reguardless if it's a religious holiday or a national holiday. Are you glorifing God in your celebration?

Hope this makes sense!

[curlymae29]

ok then if every holiday has a background or roots with every type of religion then why is it hard for everyone of diffrent religions to celebrate each holiday according to each own religion and respect everyone else and leave it at that.


Maybe because we're all just a bunch of kids who wants to be first in line?????

[cindylee]

Originally posted by Ravenlost
Easter's pagan roots: Many modern traditions associated with the Christian commemoration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ have ancient pagan roots that predate Christianity.

The origin of the name "Easter" dates back to the Babylonian and Assyrian goddess of love and fertility named Ishtar. The Phoenicians called her "Astarte" and she was the sister and consort of Baal, who was worshipped in the Middle East and Mediterranean. Some ancient Hebrews also worshipped Baal, helping Astarte's following to spread throughout Europe, becoming Ostara, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, fertility, and the rising sun. The Old English word for Easter, "Eastre" originates from the name Ostara.

Over the years, as Christians attempted to convert heathens from pagan beliefs, many similarities developed between their various holy days. Christian Easter gradually absorbed traditional pagan symbols, as well as several rites and rituals associated with pagan celebrations.

Personally I would hate to research every single holiday as I'm sure many cultures, past and present, have holidays that overlap.

Paganism PREDATES Christianity. The Christian movement PURPOSELY set the date of some of their holidays close to, or on Pagan holidays. The early Christians also KNOWINGLY used pagan symbols, etc. WHY? Because they were trying to convert people and were more sucessful if they gave the people some of what they were comfortable and familiar with.

It's just history. No biggie.

Absolutely true! Thanks Raven! :)

[jaimethepooh]

Originally posted by curlymae29

Maybe because we're all just a bunch of kids who wants to be first in line?????


as long as i get the choloate first;)

[curlymae29]

no....no...NOOOO....

me first and I want it all. :p


:) ;) :D :D :D

[jaimethepooh]

nnnnnnnnnnnoooooooooooooooooooo


mine, mine,
not yours mine!

[jaimethepooh]

Originally posted by Ravenlost
You just asked the million dollar question jaimethepooh!


lol

there is always hope that one day everyone will all get along

[janelle]

This is getting good cause I agree with all of you. LOL

I read that when Christians were being persecuted they had their religious celebrations when the Pagans had theirs so they would blend in and not be noticed. Good idea.

Then when they tried to convert Pagans they used the Pagan symbols and incorperated them into Christian worship. Also good idea as any markerter will tell you. Also if a Christian married a Pagan it would feel better if a Pagan had some similar things to identify with. We do the same things today--just watch TV and you will see how people are won over to a new product. Nothing senister about it. The Pagans also used similar tactics with Christians I'm sure.

I think cindylee is coming from a Jewish viewpoint. They have their own celebrations. I'm not sure what Jews do with Christmas and Easter but I think they celebrate the secular side of it--right Cindylee?

We all have our own way to celebrate each holiday and I hope the children can enjoy each one with the way their family celebrates it. I think children are up to celebrating anytime and they don't get bogged down in the whys and why nots.

[cindylee]

I am not sure what Jewish celebrations consist of? I am only trying to follow the word of God as best I can. Jesus kept the passover so I think I should as well.

Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

I hope that helps explain where I am coming from and again this is a personal conviction.
:)

[Willow]

Why is it that some Christians don't celebrate holidays while some of them do? Does Christianity mean different things to different people? Is it that people interpret the bible in different ways and base their beliefs on their version? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions. I've just never heard of a Christian not celebrating Easter. lol Years ago when I was attending the born again Christian church that I went to Easter was one of the most celebrated holidays even more than Christmas. They always made a bigger deal out of Easter than they did Christmas.

[curlymae29]

The Lord speaks to each of us. He has a plan for each and every child. He gives us personal direction.

[curlymae29]

Oh...also I grew up in a church that celebrated holidays, but not as religious holidays. It was kept out of the church. Christmas for instance wasn't celebrated in the church because we don't know the actual birthday of Christ.

[fatesfaery]

I grew up in the baptist church. There was always a christmas tree in the sanctuary every year, and easter egg hunts every easter. Later, when all the hysteria over halloween began, they started having events at church so kids wouldn't trick or treat.

Patch, there are as many differnt beliefs and practices among various denominations of the christian church as there are beliefs and practices among different types of pagans.

The biggest difference I've seen between christianity and paganism is that I've known christians who thought their religion was the only true religion, while I've never encountered a pagan who thought their way was the only true path.

[janelle]

Christians can tell you all the symbols of the different seasons have a religious meaning behind them. The egg at easter is the symbol of new life coming into the world and the reserection. The candy cane at Christmas is a symbol of Jesus. The white for his purity, the red for the blood he shed on the cross for men's sins and the crook of the cane for the shepard's crook stick to tend his sheep. Jesus tending his sheep which is all of us.

Look up Christian symbols of the holidays and learn what all of them mean. It's fasinating.

cindylee, if you are trying to interpret the scriptures alone then you will miss out on the true meaning. Scholars who know Jewish history can tell you what the words in the passages meant to the Jewish people at that time when Jesus was on earth preaching. Jesus had to preach so the Jews would understand. We need to know what those words meant. It's like going to another country and not understanding their culture. Trying to interpret it from our own culture which has gotten lots of people in lots of trouble.

I hope you can start to enjoy the holidays with your children and learn just how holy all of them are to Christians.

curleymae--why did they have to know the exact date of Jesus's birth? Sounds like they were throwing the baby out with the bath water. If I didn't know when one of my ancestor's birthday was it wouldn't stop me from celebrating a day I picked if that is important enough to me.
How much more important is Jesus? We celebrate Christmas because of the fact Jesus was born not for the reason we know when he was born. Talk about legalities.

[janelle]

They do know Jesus was born when Rome called for a census of all the population. That is why Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem so they could be counted where they were from. Historians can and I think they did go back to try to figure out just what time of year that census was taken. Also they think a star which was the star of Bethlehem was passing by the earth at that time. The star the shepards saw and the wise men followed and astrometors have calculated about when that was.

[cindylee]

Hiya Janelle! :)
Well, first of all I do not trust scholars and let me tell you why:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Psa 119:27 Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: so shall I talk of thy wondrous works.

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Every single time I do not understand anything in the Bible I just ask Him to show me what it means. The Spirit is able to teach and God will show me what I need to know just when I need to know it, pretty cool. :)
It is always best to start with taking the text back to the original hebrew or greek (depending on which book you are studying). Understanding ancient cultures is very important, I agree.
I do not read study guides, commentaries, etc. The word says to "search the scriptures" and you know that is really enough for me and I want to keep it pure and simple.
One thing I have found is that many things I *think* are nonsense in my flesh make perfect sense in my spirit. Take for example when God told Abraham to offer Isaac as an offering. Wow, that makes no sense whatsoever to me, my carnal mind. He loved God so much he was going to do it until the angel stopped him from slaying Isaac. Spiritually this makes perfect sense, it shows us the great sacrifice of God giving His only Son for our sakes. And when Jesus said to love Him more than your own children, family etc:
Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

And:
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

See how it all fits beautifully? I pray I am getting my point across clearly, it is almost 5am and I haven't slept yet! LOL

My point is that He gives us the wisdom, it is nothing of ourselves, not of our own doing. If I do not understand something it is only because He does not want me to know, yet. This is where faith comes in: I do not have to know everything, just have to know the One who does.
:)

[curlymae29]

Quote by Janelle
curleymae--why did they have to know the exact date of Jesus's birth? Sounds like they were throwing the baby out with the bath water. If I didn't know when one of my ancestor's birthday was it wouldn't stop me from celebrating a day I picked if that is important enough to me.
How much more important is Jesus? We celebrate Christmas because of the fact Jesus was born not for the reason we know when he was born. Talk about legalities.



You know Janelle when I was about 10 I started asking the same question. Never did get an answer! My mother didn't understand it either. Most in the church just ignored me. I was a questioning child. I asked too many questions and many times it was their beliefs I was questioning. Let's just say I wasn't very popular there.

[chooch]

Originally posted by curlymae29
oops...too slow! Ravenlost beat me to the punch.

Actually Jamie if you research the Holidays and Christian celebration you will find that most are mixed with pagan symbols. My personal belief (just my pitiful opinion) is it really depends on Christian's attitude when celebrating. Are you celebrating the holiday or worshipping another god? Are you putting God in the center of your celebration, which I feel a Christian should do with every holiday reguardless if it's a religious holiday or a national holiday. Are you glorifing God in your celebration?

Hope this makes sense!

Makes great sense to me and this was exactly what our Sister at Church said. She said all holidays are pagan holidays and we changed them into Christian holidays. She said Christmas started out as celebrating some day of light and we changed it into the day Jesus was born. Does it matter if Jesus was born on that exact day? No, because we are celebrating our love and thankfulness to Him for saving us. The pine tree came about when some pagans were saying God was in this great oak and some religious leader chopped it down and behind it was a little pine tree. And the religious leader said, God is more in this tiny pine tree hidden behind the oak (Behind the scenes so to speak) and He is in everything. To get them to understand that God was not in just the oak tree. She said too, "Holidays are what you make them. Only God knows each person's thoughts and feelings about things so it is not possible to judge one another." If you think Halloween is a time of fun for kids, it is. If you think you are celebrating the Devil's day, you are. If you are the latter, I would not want my child hanging out with yours but that is my decision to make. As far as taking Halloween out of the schools, I think we should focus more on the media and the bad examples that are slowly fed to our children everyday. God bless each and every one of you!

[justme23]

Originally posted by *chelle*
no one knows the exact date Jesus was born but the
Bible says he was born in the Fall

I thought it said he was born in the Summer? I don't know, I've never read it, this is just what we were told in Church as children... which certainly confused us as we celebrate during the winter... they had to explain to us that when it's winter here it's summer where he was born. I don't know... someone clarify this pls!

[janelle]

The only thing we can be sure of is he was born when Agustus Ceaser or one of those Roman emperors called for a census of the whole country. Mary and Joseph had to travel to Bethlehem since Joseph was from there to record their names. Historians have tried to figure out just when that was and I'm sure it is recorded somewhere but I'm not sure where to get that information.