Can someone please tell me what people have against organized religions? [Archive] - Big Big Forums

Crick

10-10-2003, 07:09 AM

I started to post this in another thread here in the religious forum however this seems a more appropriate place since you asked a specific question. This is my opinion/therory only.

As for organized religion and any other form of worship or non-worship whichever the case may be it comes down to brainwashing. Most everything I have read in these posts and seen in the organized religious arenas people only repeat what they have been told repeatedly. For myself, I enjoy reading and studying all religions and then forming my own opinion based on what I might take from each venue. We see people like Jim Jones, David Karish, Sun Yun Moon, and others who totally brainwash people into beliving one way. I don't see much difference in organized religios leaders. They are basically pushing their befiefs, ideas, and interruptations on their congragations or followers. We all have a brain to process what we are told, what we read, and what we see. It is up to each individual to use their intellegence to find what is right for them. I see nothing wrong with religious figures offering their OPINIONS but to stand and tell their followers that their view is the only acceptable form of belief (or non-belief) is in and of itself a form of brainwashing. Again just my view on the subject and my one and only post.

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 07:19 AM

What's the difference between "pushing your religion" on someone and pushing your belief that the Bible isn't correct or that there is no God onto someone?

Willow

10-10-2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by tikitiki
What's the difference between "pushing your religion" on someone and pushing your belief that the Bible isn't correct or that there is no God onto someone?

I don't see where anyone has pushed their non belief in god or their belief that the bible isn't correct on anyone.

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 07:52 AM

In another display of tolerance at Lynn Lucas Middle School, school administrators snatched three students' books with covers displaying the Ten Commandments, ripped the covers off, threw them in the garbage, and told the students that the Ten Commandments constituted "hate speech." (Also, it would be insensitive to expose the Ten Commandments to students who had never been taught to count to 10.)

In a public school in St. Louis, a teacher spotted the suspect, fourth-grader Raymond Raines, bowing his head in prayer before lunch. The teacher stormed to Raymond's table, ordered him to stop immediately and sent him to the principal's office. The principal informed the young malefactor that praying was not allowed in school. When Raymond was again caught praying before meals on three separate occasions, he was segregated from other students, ridiculed in front of his classmates, and finally sentenced to a week's detention.

----

also from other people I've come in contact with tell me that the stories in the Bible don't make sense and have no basis...just mere imaginative stories for entertainment.

----

in my church we do have people that proselyte and try to share the gospel but they never force anyone . . . you can simply tell them that you are not interested and to leave you alone and they will respect your wishes.

in my opinion, we (people in my church)like to share what we have to others, I have come to realize that I don't know who the Lord has prepared so why not give it a shot when I feel prompted, the worst they can say is NO, but it has been proven many many times that there are people waiting and are ready to hear the Lord's message, people that are glad to see you and open their doors with friendly arms.

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 08:01 AM

and for others that don't believe in God, is it because of the strict moral issues?

Willow

10-10-2003, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by tikitiki
and for others that don't believe in God, is it because of the strict moral issues?

Ummm no, I can have morals without believing in God. I'm Pagan and most Pagans are very moral and respectful people.

fidellma

10-10-2003, 08:11 AM

I'm probably going to get into hot water here but so be it.

I think that most of the people (not all mind you) that decry organized religion do so because their hearts are hardened against God. They want nothing of Him; therefore, they use the failings of false teachers and charlatains as an excuse not to believe in God or keep the biblical injunction not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together.

Certainly most people are smart enough to know that folks like Sun Yung Moon (who isn't even a christian), David Koresh and Jim Jones are no more representative of most Christian leaders than Stalin is representative of all Russians! They were people who were twisted in mind and spirit and used Christianity to further their own warped, evil means.

If one can blame organized religion for their unbelief then people are able to go about their own business, unhindered by the morals and ethics that Christ taught.

This is just my opinion but I've seen it in practice on both sides of the "Pond". If you put your faith in man you will always be disappointed. That is why I only put my faith in God. He has never let me down.

Failte'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Is gaire cabhair Dé ná an doras.
God's help is nearer than the door.

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.
A light heart lives long.

Cuir síoda ar ghabhar agus is gabhar i gcónaí é.
Put silk on a goat and it is still a goat.

Old Irish Proverbs <img src=http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/feiertage/feiertag-smiley-014.gif>

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Fireball
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tikitiki
in my church we do have people that proselyte and try to share the gospel but they never force anyone . . . you can simply tell them that you are not interested and to leave you alone and they will respect your wishes.

No, they don't leave me alone and respect my wishes.
They keep coming back again and again.
They are, in fact, very disrespectful.

Why should I have to spend my free time in my own home saying no thank you?

Their religious rights end at my property line, but they keep coming and forcing me to do what they want (listen to THEIR beliefs) instead of doing what I want to do in MY OWN HOME (finish my nap).

THEY'RE JUST LIKE TELEMARKETERS!!!
Same thing.
They both admit they'll keep doing it even though they know we don't like it because they can get one person to buy.
They're more concerned about the one sale they get than the millions of people they intrude on.
Not respectful at all, no.
No, I shouldn't have to keep saying no thank you when they're intruding in MY home.
They should just stop intruding!
If I want you, I'll call you.
Until then, stop intruding.
If proteletizers were respectful, they'd stop intruding 'cause they know we don't like it.

I am absolutely 100% positive that if you tell the representatives of my church that knock on your door that you don't want to be bothered, that they will respect it.

and also not all people are like you....If I want you, I'll call you..... there are people that have been waiting but just don't exactly know how and where to start, my parents were just one of the many people, I am forever grateful for the missionaries that came and knocked on our door when I was a little girl.

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 08:26 AM

Originally posted by fidellma
[B]I'm probably going to get into hot water here but so be it.

I think that most of the people (not all mind you) that decry organized religion do so because their hearts are hardened against God. They want nothing of Him; therefore, they use the failings of false teachers and charlatains as an excuse not to believe in God or keep the biblical injunction not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together.

Certainly most people are smart enough to know that folks like Sun Yung Moon (who isn't even a christian), David Koresh and Jim Jones are no more representative of most Christian leaders than Stalin is representative of all Russians! They were people who were twisted in mind and spirit and used Christianity to further their own warped, evil means.

and also, like what I've said before and I quote myself again...

no one would disagree that history reminds us that religion is often hijacked (as is done by Al Quaida, et al), in order to justify wars and murder.

However, so is education, and so are cultures, and so is almost any other meaningful aspect of life so manipulated and utilized by the murderous...

all religions are not the same, and a belief in a Creator is not responsible for all the murder instigated in the "name of religion" by those murderers who did it. In truth, it is a perversion of the belief in a Creator that is associated with those crimes. Wicked hearts and selfish wills, and murder for gain, are responsible for the devastation caused by them, and the misguided perversion that set up men as their own gods, subservient to none, in direct contrast to the very religion's precepts they hijacked in order to commit their crimes.

tikitiki

10-10-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by Patchouli
Ummm no, I can have morals without believing in God. I'm Pagan and most Pagans are very moral and respectful people.

just wondering where you stand on the Law of Chastity, the Word of Wisdom (Smoking, Alcohol, etc),

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 08:34 AM

And as far as having non beliefs pushed on believers...it's done all the time in this very forum. It's done across the country.

Willow

10-10-2003, 08:36 AM

I'm not trying to cause an argument but where in this forum has a non believer pushed their beliefs on anyone. I must have missed it.

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 08:43 AM

I have been told that I am blind.
I have been told that I am arrogant.
I have been told that I am ignorant.
Because of my faith in God.
And that just the last couple of weeks.

Willow

10-10-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by curlymae29
I have been told that I am blind.
I have been told that I am arrogant.
I have been told that I am ignorant.
Because of my faith in God.
And that just the last couple of weeks.

I still don't see where it shows that anyone has pushed their beliefs on you. It sounds like they may have been disagreeing with something you may have said but I don't interpret that to be pushing their beliefs on you.

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by janelle
How has organized religion set some people off on a tangent? Not trying to be disrespectful but some people say they can't stand organized religion. Why and how have some become like this? Is it the media reporting all the bad things on different religions or somethingelse?

I think (for me) it is because most (notice I said most not all) end up being fake and only trying to use their faith and the faith of others to further their own agenda rather than those focused on the Lord. Mostly I am referring to some evangelists on this part. Like the money. Excuse me, but what the heck does God need with all that dough? Here they are driving around in mercedes and begging you to send them more money??!!
I do not go to church because I feel that God can hear me just as good from home where I know that I am loved rather than a place where people will give fake smiles and talk about you behind your back. Also the ones that say that the Lord loves all but if a bum came in to pray they would shame him/her into leaving or give them such bad looks that they would not want to come back ever. Most (and notice again that I did not say all) in my experience are hypocritical. They say and preach one thing and do another. I have been to several kinds of churches and they are all the same. I do not need more drama in my life, I have enough thank you.

And just for the record, this is just my opinion so I don't need to hear a bunch of rhetoric about it. It is not right or wrong just my view on the world. :):)

Willow

10-10-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Donnagg123
I think (for me) it is because most (notice I said most not all) end up being fake and only trying to use their faith and the faith of others to further their own agenda rather than those focused on the Lord. Mostly I am referring to some evangelists on this part. Like the money. Excuse me, but what the heck does God need with all that dough? Here they are driving around in mercedes and begging you to send them more money??!!
I do not go to church because I feel that God can hear me just as good from home where I know that I am loved rather than a place where people will give fake smiles and talk about you behind your back. Also the ones that say that the Lord loves all but if a bum came in to pray they would shame him/her into leaving or give them such bad looks that they would not want to come back ever. Most (and notice again that I did not say all) in my experience are hypocritical. They say and preach one thing and do another. I have been to several kinds of churches and they are all the same. I do not need more drama in my life, I have enough thank you.

And just for the record, this is just my opinion so I don't need to hear a bunch of rhetoric about it. It is not right or wrong just my view on the world. :):)

This is one of the reasons I left the born again Christian church that I attended many years ago. I met a nice lady who attended and she asked if I would like to go along sometime so I agreed. I ended up attending for over two years. Well it was like a circus. The people were nice and all and they would do a lot for you but the minute you disagree or don't do as they want you to do you were on their $hit list.

They basically said this is the way and the only way. If I didn't believe how they believed then I was doomed and going to spend eternity in hell. Some of the members turned out to be the biggest hypocrits around. They found out about a Pagan family that lived in the next town over. The guy was a High Priest and the church was always sending them pamphlets and things on how to be saved and different invitations to church functions. Finally the guys wife had to call the church and explain that they were Pagan, which the church already knew and ask them to stop sending them things because they weren't interested.

They also tried to make the members feel guilty if they didn't tithe 5% of their income. I honestly didn't enjoy sitting in church. There were others things that I would rather of been doing. I told one of the ladies that I could pray at home just as well as I could at church and she would always say....but it says in the bible you need the fellowship. They loved to quote the bible. lol

It was so hard telling them that I don't believe the same way they do because they were so narrow minded. It was their way or no way. They meant well but they were just so darn pushy.

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 04:48 PM

I still don't see where it shows that anyone has pushed their beliefs on you. It sounds like they may have been disagreeing with something you may have said but I don't interpret that to be pushing their beliefs on you.

I know that I can't make you understand. Yes they were disagreeing with me about MY FAITH. When they put me down because I believe in God they are telling me I'm stupid for believing in my God. They are telling me that my belief is wrong and their's is right. That pushing.

jaimethepooh

10-10-2003, 04:58 PM

ok first off you are so completly wrong
i said arrogant due to the fact to thing that only christians care about this country
i said ignorant due to think that there is only one religion in this country
and i said you were blinded by your own faith becuase you can't seem to see beyond your bible
if anyone else don't belive me look at the thread
http://forums.bigbigsavings.com/showthread.php3?s=&threadid=340557

someone please tell me where i said my religion was better than hers, someone please show me where i pushed my way on her, and show me where i said she was stupid (i believe i said blind)
i'd like to know becuase i reread and didn't see it any where

if you have a problem with me take it up in a pm

this whole problem of yours is not the issue of this thread

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 04:59 PM

There are good and bad in all churches. Most churches are more good than bad.

Someone mentioned money and what did God need with all that money. Have you ever looked at a church budget? Have you ever wondered how the church got all the Sunday School Lit? Have you ever wondered how the youth programs happen? What about the church building? The church needs money for the expenses of the church. Do you have any idea how much the churches gives to the poor and needy?

Just because a pastor drives a nice car doesn't necessarily mean that the church pays him a huge salary. Most churches don't. Most pastors just handle their money well.

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 05:00 PM

ckerr4

10-10-2003, 05:02 PM

I think the difference is between telling you you are stupid for believing in God (which would be wrong) and telling you that you should believe in her/his god.

Pushing, to me, is telling someone that his beliefs are wrong and that your rights are better and/or the only way.

IMO

jaimethepooh

10-10-2003, 05:03 PM

show me where i said your beliefs were wrong
show me where i said my way was better

i'm not the one who brought it up

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by curlymae29
There are good and bad in all churches. Most churches are more good than bad.

Someone mentioned money and what did God need with all that money. Have you ever looked at a church budget? Have you ever wondered how the church got all the Sunday School Lit? Have you ever wondered how the youth programs happen? What about the church building? The church needs money for the expenses of the church. Do you have any idea how much the churches gives to the poor and needy?

Just because a pastor drives a nice car doesn't necessarily mean that the church pays him a huge salary. Most churches don't. Most pastors just handle their money well.

Yes, I do realize the money that is needed to run a church. I was not speaking of everyday preachers I was speaking of most evangelists who are on TV. Most get millions of dollars in donations and later we find they were paying for hookers and scamming people and using the money for other things. I DO realize that a preacher needs money to live. They should have a nice car and a nice house and food for their family because their job IS the church. However, when they are driving around in a car that most of their followers could not afford in their lifetime and living in a house that cost millions of dollars there is something wrong. Apparently not all money is going for the church but their own greed. Again, I was not referring to ALL pastors, just the TV evangelists. Sorry for not clarifying myself. :)

Willow

10-10-2003, 05:24 PM

I just looked through that whole thread and I still don't see where anyone was pushing their beliefs on you curlymae29. Pagans and Wiccans don't put people down for believing differently. We realize and accept that there are many religions and never claim that our way is the only way. That's where we differ.

Blessed Be!

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 05:30 PM

Donna,

That happens. But when you get down to the nitty gritty, it's always the bad that stand out and hides the good. Even the TV pastors for the most part are good, they aren't cheating, they aren't stealing. They are trying to live by God's word. But the news doesn't report on them. They only focus on the bad making it all look bad. That happens in churches too. There are a handful who cause the discord, but people don't see all the hard workers, good honest folks, who are trying their best. The only time they get noticed is when they do make a mistake. And that is so sad. Because I know we need a good church family.

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 05:33 PM

Patch...like I said, I don't expect you to understand. You aren't on this end.

jaimethepooh

10-10-2003, 05:34 PM

like i said show me where. please prove me wrong.

its not easy being on this end either, but like you are so fond of saying you are in the majority.

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by curlymae29
Donna,

That happens. But when you get down to the nitty gritty, it's always the bad that stand out and hides the good. Even the TV pastors for the most part are good, they aren't cheating, they aren't stealing. They are trying to live by God's word. But the news doesn't report on them. They only focus on the bad making it all look bad. That happens in churches too. There are a handful who cause the discord, but people don't see all the hard workers, good honest folks, who are trying their best. The only time they get noticed is when they do make a mistake. And that is so sad. Because I know we need a good church family.

I agree with you that most are good :) I am just stating from my perspective. All churches I personally (only speaking for myself) have been to are that way. Once you have been burned so many times it is pointless to try again, in my opinion. I am not going by anything the media says (except for evagelists). I am going by my personal experiences. I just have had very bad experiences (and way more than one) with church and christians (not anyone here just people in my own personal life). I know it is a fallacy to believe because it happens to me, it happens everywhere. But more than one person who I have talked to who do not go to church anymore have had the same bad personal experiences that I have had. Thank you for explaining your reasoning :)

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 05:56 PM

Well and maybe part of it is me. I used to go into churches and looked at the hipocrites. I saw the whole church that way. But when I started going to worship God and quit looking around, I started seeing the good and realized the good far out weighed the bad. Then I started working in my church and really began to see it differently. Now the eyes that I once looked through are staring at me. And all I'm trying to do is do the best I can for the Lord and His church. (Oh...and that's something else...I used to see the church as the people's church. When I started seeing it as the House of the Lord, I saw things very differently.)

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 05:57 PM

If it's not too personal...would you care to name the denominations you have tried?

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 06:11 PM

Donna,

Please ignore my previous post...I shouldn't have asked that.

Basically I was trying to get to a point, but took the wrong route.

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 06:16 PM

Mostly baptist and pentacostal (I have been to others but like once or twice), but I have been to several different baptist and pentacostal churches. That is all there is around here. I admit I have not had a chance to try catholic or other types of christian churches but it just feels like they are all the same. I never feel comfortable or good enough and I end up hating it the whole time and it just comes down to people gossiping and other things going on and the people never make me feel like I am good enough. I am just comfortable at home because I don't feel like I have to be something that I am not. Others may feel the church is their home and that is great, but I always felt like it was a time not to praise the lord but for people to brag about what they have and compare themselves with those that don't because that is all I have seen. That does not mean I do not believe in the Lord. I do not believe in the bible though. I know I quoted it in the other thread, but I use it as a point of reference. There are parts that are exact, but for the most part I think it is stories and fables. Sorry I rambled, I tend to get off on a tangent ;) HTH :):)

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 06:17 PM

That's okay. I didn't mind answering. :)

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 06:40 PM

I was raised in a very strict and very traditional church. (Guess that shows). My mother came from another church. She taught me to search. This lead me into a different views than the church I was going to. All the 'doctrine' was a major turn off and I turned away from the church. I tried others, but still found them to much churchey. I look back now and wonder if they were or if bad experience made them appear that way.

I would visit my sister in another town and from time to time I would go to her church with her. This was a non-denomintial (sp) church that stood on the bible and the love of God, rather than 'bi-laws'. I loved that church and I am so grateful to them because they planted seeds that the Lord later allowed others to tend and bring me to a wonderful church family.

I'm Southern Baptist. It is more traditional, but our church tries to look at the individual with bi-laws taken into consideration, instead of looking at the individual through the bi-laws. (Does this make sense?) But we sure do fall short at times. And to be honest, it usually is because of a couple of people who are legilistic.

Let me give you an example:
We have two lovely young ladies who come to our church. They are always there, very faithfully. They are always willing to jump in and help with anything. They are both saved. Both would make great leaders. But because of personal reasons (I won't go into the reasons, but they are valid reasons that have nothing to do with our church) they haven't 'joined' our church. We have requested more than once that they be placed as teachers. But everytime we do, these certain members jump up and down shouting 'It's against the bi-laws.' So we can't place them as teachers, which we desparately need.

Don't get me wrong...we need 'bi-laws' as guide line, but we should still look at the individual. (Like I said, it isn't church wide, it's only a couple.)

Now my sister on the other hand attended her church for well over 10 years. She taught classes and held leadership roles. Until recently she wasn't a 'member'. She didn't feel the need to place a membership in a church and the church didn't feel that it took membership to make a leader.

I guess what I'm trying to say is it sounds like you need a church like hers. Have you checked out some non-denominational churches? They tend to be much more loving and much more nourshing.

Please over look the spelling and if I'm way off base, ignore my post all together. It's just that your words are so much like me and my sister's words were until she found her church. But maybe I just reading too much into it.

curlymae29

10-10-2003, 06:50 PM

I was writing my post when you responded....

Bet your thinking....Great...another Baptist.

But your words are sounding so much like me at one time!

Oh...Are their others in your area who have had the same experience as you? Maybe you could get together with some of those and start a bible study, church, meeting, whatever you want to call it, in your home. Where two or more are gathered!

Hope you don't take this wrong. I have been blessed with a wonderful church family (even with the faults) who are such a great support. I just would love for everyone to find that same kind of family and support.

Donnagg123

10-10-2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by curlymae29
I was writing my post when you responded....

Bet your thinking....Great...another Baptist.

But your words are sounding so much like me at one time!

Oh...Are their others in your area who have had the same experience as you? Maybe you could get together with some of those and start a bible study, church, meeting, whatever you want to call it, in your home. Where two or more are gathered!

Hope you don't take this wrong. I have been blessed with a wonderful church family (even with the faults) who are such a great support. I just would love for everyone to find that same kind of family and support.

No, I did not take offense :) Thank you for thinking of me :)I just don't feel like I could open up myself like that again. I admit it, I am very cynical. That has always been my fall-back. I like to think of that line from Dolores Claiborne by Stephen King. Sometimes being a ***** is all a woman has to hold onto. So I don't think I could try something like that because you have to open yourself up and be ready for hurt.
I think it is great you have a place to call home (the church). That is a rare and precious thing so hold onto it tightly :)

janelle

10-10-2003, 10:25 PM

Wow, this thread certainly has taken many twists and turns. I'm happy it is turning out to be calm and helpful for some.

The reason I asked the question and started this thread was in response to Mr Unsocial's comment about his wife hippie. He said she really doesn't like organized religion. It got me to thinking why she and others have such a problem with organized religion and I wanted to understand it. That's all, to give the people with these thoughs a chance to share them with us.

I know with my church, Catholic, we do not go out in the community and try to get anyone to join. Just in recent years that has begun to change a little. Now they are sending letters to fallen away Catholics and inviting them to come back and tell us what the church has done to hurt them. The letter apologises for any hurts the church may have caused and wants the person to consider coming back. To talk about why they felt they had to leave. An open spirit towards them. Then they stand back. No cohersing, just leaving it up to the person to take the step to reconciliation.

Many in this thread have said the reason they left a church was the people that went to church. Acually church can be seen as a hospital for the spiritually ill. Don't look at the person next to you in the pew. We would do better to keep our eyes on the Lord. If Jesus or God has done anything that you think is wrong or hurtful to you then you can turn away for a real reason. But even then if you would talk to a spiritual leader. One who you can trust and have a rapore with then you may find the problems are not that bad. Somethings they were misunderstood on our part.

I think this has been a good discussion and if we keep personalities out of it, can keep being interesting. Helps us explore our feelings.

Willow

10-11-2003, 07:10 AM

The people in the church was only one reason that I left. The other is that I just don't believe the same as they believe. As Donnagg has said I think the bible is made up of stories that were told over the years. I certainly don't believe that their way is the only way. I don't believe in the devil or heaven or hell. I also think the bible contradicts itself.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by janelle
Wow, this thread certainly has taken many twists and turns. I'm happy it is turning out to be calm and helpful for some.

I think this has been a good discussion and if we keep personalities out of it, can keep being interesting. Helps us explore our feelings.

yeah right
someone told lies about me, insulted me, acused me of the most vilest thing: breaking the three fold rule. if anyone thinks that i am going to ignore it, think again.
and when i defend myself my attacker runs and hides. Show me proff that i have said these things and i will amend myself.

i guess even you can't even find proff that i said these things Janelle, i was hoping you would have something for me today.

someone might have forgotten their golden rule
but i have not forgotten my rede

i will say this to my attacker:
the harm that you have caused, will come back to you three fold.

the reason why i decided my path happened when i was young.
my mother let me got with a christian friend of mine to a bible study camp thing. i was told by the preacher becuase my mother is catholic and was not rasing me to be christian that i was going to hell.
i made up my mind when i got older that i would not be part of a religion that would insult my mother and insult my up bringing.

and being insulted like i was yesterday, just makes me proud to not be apart of christianity.

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 09:38 AM

i said arrogant due to the fact to thing that only christians care about this country

I said the majority, but you continued to make claims that I was saying only.

i said ignorant due to think that there is only one religion in this country

I never said that there was only one religion, but you continued to claim I ignorant because I see things through my faith instead of the way you see them.

and i said you were blinded by your own faith becuase you can't seem to see beyond your bible

Because I see things from a Christian perspective I'm unable to see thing as they really are? Otherwords, my christian beliefs make me stupid?

You repeatly told me to try reading history. Because of my christian beliefs I'm not able? Maybe I haven't? This again makes me stupid?

I'm not hiding. I am quite aware of your feelings toward me. That is why I have been chosing to ignore you and will from now on.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by curlymae29
i said arrogant due to the fact to thing that only christians care about this country

I said the majority, but you continued to make claims that I was saying only.

i said ignorant due to think that there is only one religion in this country

I never said that there was only one religion, but you continued to claim I ignorant because I see things through my faith instead of the way you see them.

and i said you were blinded by your own faith becuase you can't seem to see beyond your bible

Because I see things from a Christian perspective I'm unable to see thing as they really are? Otherwords, my christian beliefs make me stupid?

You repeatly told me to try reading history. Because of my christian beliefs I'm not able? Maybe I haven't? This again makes me stupid?

I'm not hiding. I am quite aware of your feelings toward me. That is why I have been chosing to ignore you and will from now only.

you said stupid i never once claimed you to be stupid in beleving god
show me what page i said that.

calling you arrogant, ignorant, and blinded by your fath is my opinion of you and no way is pusing my way on you and is no way saying your way is wrong

yes you are hiding by not answering me last night, by not showing me proff of the wrong doing you are claiming me of doing.

go ahead ignore me you have insulted me you created the problem by stating a lie about me
and you have just shown your true colors as a human and as a christian

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 10:04 AM

You don't feel that arrogant, ignorant, and blinded is insulting? You feel I am this way because of my beliefs. You may not have said stupid but you implied it.

Now you have said what you feel you need to say and I have said what I feel I needed to say.

I am not going to continue with this because I don't want to get the discussions from this forum shut down.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 10:09 AM

you insulted me in that thread as much as i did to you

you began this battle with a lie

if you don't want this forum shut down, don't start anything

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 10:12 AM

How did I begin with a lie?

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 10:16 AM

that i pushed my way on you
that i called you stupid( that is in your head)
go back a page.

Crick

10-11-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by fidellma
I'm probably going to get into hot water here but so be it.

Certainly most people are smart enough to know that folks like Sun Yung Moon (who isn't even a christian), David Koresh and Jim Jones are no more representative of most Christian leaders than Stalin is representative of all Russians! They were people who were twisted in mind and spirit and used Christianity to further their own warped, evil means.

A rebuttal...No where in my post did I mention CHRISTIAN LEADERS. What I said was organized religion, which was the topic. The men mentioned were only used as examples of men who were able to brainwash thousands of people to follow them under the guise of religion. However, there are many others, male and female who have used the power to brainwash people. In their mind set they may have well thought that they were God or that their "preachings" were/are the only true religion. This is what I posted:

[/B] [/Quote] As for organized religion and any other form of worship or non-worship whichever the case may be it comes down to brainwashing. Most everything I have read in these posts and seen in the organized religious arenas people only repeat what they have been told repeatedly. For myself, I enjoy reading and studying all religions and then forming my own opinion based on what I might take from each venue. We see people like Jim Jones, David Karish, Sun Yun Moon, and others who totally brainwash people into beliving one way. I don't see much difference in organized religios leaders. They are basically pushing their befiefs, ideas, and interruptations on their congragations or followers. We all have a brain to process what we are told, what we read, and what we see. It is up to each individual to use their intellegence to find what is right for them. I see nothing wrong with religious figures offering their OPINIONS but to stand and tell their followers that their view is the only acceptable form of belief (or non-belief) is in and of itself a form of brainwashing. Again just my view on the subject and my one and only post. [/B] [/Quote]

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 10:30 AM

When you tell me I blinded by faith tells me I'm stupid.

When you tell me I'm blinded by faith that tells me that because I do try to live through God, I'm wrong. My beliefs are wrong and your are right.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 10:35 AM

i have never implied that you are stupid you keep saying that
i have never said your way is wrong and mine is right, if i did say it show me where
blinded by faith means you will not open your eyes to something that might go aginst your faith

show me where i said that you live by God that you are wrong. that is your path that is your way and i would never be as rude to tell you that you are wrong
show me where in that thread i said that you were stupid i have never thought it and i have never implied that

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 10:42 AM

Well it sure sounded that way.

At the very beginning I made a comment about it being a good post, etc. Then I asked you for some examples. It was something I was really asking and tried to clarify it in another post. But you responded with saying I was arrogant and ignorant.

And to clarify...ignorant to me means unlearned. ignorant and unwilling to learn means stupid.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 10:45 AM

you can twist it around all you want
you claimed that i pushed my way on you (which i didn't and you can't show me prof)
i have never called you stupid you can think that all you want if i did. i did clarify when you asked me you just kept thinking i was wrong and name calling
you have accused me of breaking the three fold rule and you won't even admit to the fact that you lied

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 10:51 AM

I don't feel I have lied. And once again I see we are at an impass.

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 10:54 AM

you said i pushed my way on you

show me where

if you can't then you have told a lie
i have never pushed my way on you
i have never implied my way was better

a lie is a lie
no matter how you try to twist it

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 11:02 AM

Sorry...

jaimethepooh

10-11-2003, 11:04 AM

i am sorry. but i did try to take it up in a pm.
i do not like being accuesed of what she was accused me of doing, you would be upset if it was done to you. i don't feel any way guilty of defending myself.

Technologist

10-11-2003, 12:14 PM

Thanks FBH.... for trying to put this thread back on topic.

Thanks curlymae.... and jaimie the pooh.... for stopping the off topic discussion..... maybe you would like to exchange AIM or yahoo id's and have a discussion JUST BETWEEN the 2 of you.... so you can talk, and not be interrupted by BANDWAGON comments (not saying that happened here YET). Send each other a PM with your info....

We now return to the topic..."Can someone please tell me what people have against organized religions?"

turbob

10-11-2003, 12:20 PM

Can I put in my 2 cents? I think people have to right to believe (or not believe) however they want. I don't think I have to write to try to convert anyone, and others DO NOT have the right to convert me. Whatever you believe-whatever gives you inner peace, is fine.Organized religions (and this is JUST MY OPINION) seem to be more about money and telling others what to believe than about worshiping the powers that be.

curlymae29

10-11-2003, 01:19 PM

turbob....from the Christian stand point...part of our worship is spreading the word. We're commanded to. And we want to do it in a loving way, but being humans we fail.

mathwiz

10-11-2003, 03:14 PM

I know I probably shouldn't stick my nose in here, being new and all, but I do take offense at the remark about Kennedy being Catholic. I am a Catholic, albeit lapsed, and I AM a Christian, thank you very much.

MrUnsocial

10-11-2003, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by janelle

The reason I asked the question and started this thread was in response to Mr Unsocial's comment about his wife hippie. He said she really doesn't like organized religion. It got me to thinking why she and others have such a problem with organized religion and I wanted to understand it. That's all, to give the people with these thoughs a chance to share them with us.

One of HippieChic's reasons for disliking organized religion, is the PEOPLE in churches. She thinks that the majority of the ones she has dealt with are pushy, rude, and hippocritcal. And that's all I'm going to say on her behalf. Since she can't be here to respond herself, I'm just gonna stick with the athiest thread, where I know what I'm talking about, and am speaking for no one except myself.

mathwiz

10-11-2003, 05:22 PM

And she's right. That's why I have lapsed.

janelle

10-11-2003, 08:39 PM

So then most people here who do not like organized religion don't like it because of the people involved in the church they went to? Is that correct?

What if the people you met at church were very nice and non-hypocritcal, would you think differently of organized religion then?

Merry99%

10-12-2003, 03:33 AM

We now return to the topic..."Can someone please tell me what people have against organized religions?"

and non christian religions.(I add this)...
just a guess after reading this thread

is that people had rather look outward ,for others imperfections ;than inward to search their own heart and souls...
Somewhere(I can't quote where?)in the bible it says"let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind" I don't even claim to know exactly what that means,but its sounds like pretty good advice for everyone IMO,whether it came from the bible or another source.We should also keep in mind the golden rule,or karma,whatever you want to see it as,and treat others with the same amount of respect and kindness you are demanding of them.
I am a christian,I believe we are equal,and that should be what you expect of me and return.That means that if I believe (as I do) that I am suppose to testify to my beliefs,I should be able to do so,and if you do not wish to hear me,we will never talk of it.Same as with whatever anyone else believes.Doesn'tmean I am wrong,you are right,just that we do not have to be in agreement,but we do all have to be in harmony.
If someone keeps bothering you,they should be told not to come to your home anymore.Its uncomfortable telling them,just for a second,then theyre gone;)

girlwithsoul

10-12-2003, 11:27 AM

Just my quick little response to this thread....

My father is Baptist and my mother is Catholic. I've been to every church under the SUN and have only found one type (black baptist churches) where I feel welcome and accepted with open arms. I've been told many times that I would go to hell for not attending church on a regular basis, or for not taking communion, or going to confession or for believing a certain way. Well here's what I think. First, God gave man the will and the materials to build, therefore EVERYWHERE you go you are in the house of God.....the WORLD is the house of God. Second, in my opinion, organized religion has spawned a society of incredibly judgemental followers who aren't open to even the slightest possibility that what they think may not be the absolute and definitive answer. Lastly, why must I worship on specified days? Your relationship with God should be cultivated and reaped everyday, everywhere.....if you believe in God or whatever else.

That's all I have to say. Thanks.

janelle

10-12-2003, 11:43 AM

I thought religion taught us we can worship anywhere and everywhere. That we can worship on everyday of the year at anytime.

You know from your mother the Catholic church has Mass everyday all over the world so somewhere in the world the Mass is being celebtated at every second of the day. And people are praying at every second of the day. No reason we can't do the same. Pray whenever and wherever you are. Even in public schools. They have not learned how to control our minds, yet. So say silent prayers whenever and wherever you feel like it.

That is what organized religion teaches.

girlwithsoul

10-12-2003, 11:56 AM

But there in lies another question....why must we pray if God is all knowing? Also, can I not be a completely spiritual person without going to church....ever? Many, many, MANY Christians that I've talked to about this subject tell me no. That, in my opinion, is such a narrow-minded way of thinking. Believe me....I have lots of questions regarding religion.

I should say that my mother does not attend church anymore. Most of her side of the family, however, does. The Catholics seem to attend church TOO much....but that's another can of worms.

ckerr4

10-12-2003, 12:59 PM

I think Girwithsoul's point was (w/o trying to put words in her mouth - this is my interpretation of her point), why does the Church say that she has to go on a certain day? Of course she knows that she herself could go on anyday, she can pray on anyday, she can reach out to God at anytime, but the fact of the matter is that the Catholic Church says you have to attend Mass on Sunday - if you don't, then you have sinned. So if you are a person who doesn't agree with that, then, yes, that puts you at odds with an organized religion.
I understand the evolution of Sunday as a Sabbath day. The Church would say that the community that ensues at Sunday Mass is essential for the development of a person's faith, among other things. I also, however, understand GWS's point.

Willow

10-12-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by Ravenlost
I absolutely and completely believe you can be a completely spiritual person without going to church ever. Church, in and of itself, doesn't make you a better or a worse person. YOU have to do that in your heart.

I completely agree. Going to church and beleiving in god does not make a person good.

Sweetberries

10-12-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Patchouli
I completely agree. Going to church and beleiving in god does not make a person good. that's for sure

Sweetberries

10-12-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Patchouli
I completely agree. Going to church and beleiving in god does not make a person good. that's for sure

Sweetberries

10-12-2003, 03:45 PM

sorry doubled posted

janelle

10-12-2003, 09:27 PM

We can go to church anytime but Sunday is mandatory because God told us in the Ten commandants to keep holy the Lord's day. God wants us go to church one day a week. Just one day is all He asks of us and men have chosen Sunday because in the sevebth day of creation the bible says He rested. If God can rest from His work then so can man. And a part of resting from everyday work is to worship God.

Girlwithsoul, you ask an interesting question. If God knows everything then why do we have to pray. If you had a friend and never talked to him would you say he was really your friend? Would you ever develope a close relationship with him? I don't think we can be friends with anyone we never talk to or have dealings with. It's the same with God. He wants us to talk to Him about our deepest thoughts and feelings. When we do then we ourselves figure out a lot of things we wouldn't otherwise. Praying and meditating is a good thing to do for yourself. Lots of people get away from doing it and then they let going to church and God slip through the cracks because it just isn't that important anymore. We have all experienced this with our friends. The ones we keep in contact with are our friends for life the ones we never see or talk to become strangers to us after a few years.

Can one be spiritual if they don't go to church? Maybe, but why not go to church and worship with others together? You may end up being more spiritual.

curlymae29

10-12-2003, 09:59 PM

chelle

Did she attend church before she was disabled?

janelle

10-12-2003, 10:06 PM

For disabled people of course they aren't expected to go to church but even then many churches have volunteers to help get disabled people to church by picking them up and driving them there. And the priest or minister can go visit the disabled. All they need to do is ask. That is part of their job.

curlymae29

10-12-2003, 10:21 PM

Actually, Janelle and I are thinking along the same lines. I used to go to a church that were very faithful in visiting those who couldn't attend every Sunday afternoon. That is an area my church that I attend now is lacking in. We're working on it!

curlymae29

10-12-2003, 11:01 PM

Well...sometimes it's pride. It's hard to admit to shortcomings. And sometimes they feel they are being a burden. I could see myself being too prideful. I think my old church understood that. That's why they were so faithful to visit and at least share a prayer.

curlymae29

10-12-2003, 11:20 PM

Amen!!!
Same here...I get a lot of nourishment!

curlymae29

10-13-2003, 01:51 PM

So sweet...Children give for the purest of reasons, straight from the heart. They drop their change in, excited to give, never wondering what they might could do with it if they kept it. I know I need to take a lesson from them. I think many adults need it.

curlymae29

10-15-2003, 04:20 AM

Why Go To Church?
>
>
>
> A Church goer wrote a letter to the editor of a
> newspaper and complained that it made no sense
> to go to church every Sunday. "I've gone for 30
> years now," he wrote, "and in that time I have
> heard something like 3,000 sermons. But for the
> life of me, I can't remember a single one of them.
> So, I think I'm wasting my time and the pastors are
> wasting theirs by giving sermons at all."
>
>
>
> This started a real controversy in the "Letters to the Editor"
> column, much to the delight of the editor. It went on for weeks
> until someone wrote this clincher:
>
> "I've been married for 30 years now. In that time my wife has
> cooked some 32,000 meals. But, for the life of me, I cannot
> recall the entire menu for a single one of those meals. But I do
> know this... They all nourished me and gave me the strength I
> needed to do my work. If my wife had not given me these meals,
> I would be physically dead today. Likewise, if I had not gone to
> church for nourishment, I would be spiritually dead today!" When
> you are DOWN to nothing.... God is UP to something! Faith sees
> the invisible, believes the incredible and receives the impossible!
>
> Thank God for our physical AND our spiritual nourishment!

girlwithsoul

10-15-2003, 09:12 AM

It isn't CHURCH that nourishes you....it's GOD! God and your relationship with HIM is what is important. It's hard for me to justify going to church to hear things I already now and to be told how to have a relationship with God. No one can tell me how to relate to God because each one of us is a different person with different needs and ways to handle life.

Oh and one more thing....in my opinion the entire theme of all religion and the Bible comes down to one sentence....
"Do unto others as you would have done to you."

That's it in a nutshell.....what the Bible and religion tells us all over and over.