Atheist Discussion

[Technologist]

First off: If you're not an atheist, feel free to come in and read. Do NOT come in to start a fight, lecture, belittle, etc. If you don't agree with what is being said, hit the back button.

Just as I do not come into the other discussion threads and TC, do not come here and TC. AND before someone gets uptight and hits the "report this to a moderator" button.... "Religion" and "Lack of Religion" are 2 sides of the same coin... in other words, it DOES belong in this forum!

That being said... Any atheists out here??? I'm not looking for agnostics (people who WANT to be atheists, but aren't strong enough to make the final leap, just in case they MIGHT be wrong...).

When did you decide that religion was not all it's cracked up to be?

What made you finally decide?

Do you think the decision will stick, or are you still checking around, to make sure you are right???

[Technologist]

Before I answer..... Do you like to read???

and I edited this to say, in response to your comment "I'm definitely not an atheist".... I know!:D :D :D

[janelle]

I'm not sure but I would think an atheist would steer clear of a Religious Content board. Those who don't would strike me as a person with questions on what they believe and maybe having second thoughts. JMO

[justme23]

Originally posted by janelle
I'm not sure but I would think an atheist would steer clear of a Religious Content board. Those who don't would strike me as a person with questions on what they believe and maybe having second thoughts. JMO

No, that's very unlikely. More Christians convert to Atheism than Atheists convert to Christianity. I'm sure he's just looking for someone who can agree w/ him on like beliefs. Just as you come here to talk to ppl you agree w/. And discussions on Atheism (as he pointed out) do belong in the RC forum.

[Willow]

I'm Pagan but I do know two or three people who are atheists. One is more or less an agnostic as he is still questioning the existence of a god but hasn't made up his mind either way.

[irrelevant0]

.

[MrUnsocial]

I am an atheist. For me, religion just isn't logical. (Not meaning that to offend either.)My wife is very spiritual, but not into organized religion. We can have some good debates, LOL. My mother is a religious fantic, and has tried to cram it down my throat for as long as I can remember. (well, not now, because we don't talk). I was required to study the Bible growing up and the more I studied, the less I believed. At first, I think I said I was an atheist to get a rise out of parents, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I really didn't believe there was a god.

Ok, now flame away, LOL! But please don't call me a 'brood of snakes'! :)

[Willow]

That's a good point you brought up MrUnsocial. You can be spiritual without being religious. Hopefully no one will flame you. lol :)

[Technologist]

Originally posted by MrUnsocial
I am an atheist.
Ok, now flame away, LOL! But please don't call me a 'brood of snakes'! :)

As I said when I opened this..... It is a discussion. If you want to flame, hit the back button, or the "x"... then walk outside and flame up a cigarette!

PS, I will get back into this thread soon, just been real tied up and don't have time for long, detailed posts (which I was hoping to put here).

[Maeryn]

Originally posted by janelle
I'm not sure but I would think an atheist would steer clear of a Religious Content board. Those who don't would strike me as a person with questions on what they believe and maybe having second thoughts. JMO

Or, they could be interested in learning more about the beliefs of others. I'm Pagan, but also study other religions. I have no interest in converting to another faith, but find it fulfilling to learn about what others believe. I have friends who are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist, etc. Having an understanding of what each other believes truly enhances our friendship.

[fidellma]

I'm kind of new here but I just wanted to ask Tech a question.

Other than having religion shoved down your throat as a child, what are your reasons for not believing in God? Do your reasons stem from your sense of logic or somewhere else?

I'm always interested in trying to understand other's beliefs. I am a Christian but I have found that there is so much evidence for Christianity being true that I can't NOT believe. That's just me.

[Willow]

I can't answer for Tech but I guess it's all in what you believe.

[Willow]

I can't answer for Tech but I guess it's all in what you believe.

[EtherealGirl]

Can you be an atheist and still believe that humans were created by intelligent beings other than God?

[janelle]

I'm pretty sure atheists don't believe in any creator. Everything is here just because it is here. The big bang theory. That's harder for me to believe than a loving God created it all and we will understand after we die and are with Him. Kinda like an ant trying to understand our world.

[EtherealGirl]

I ask this because of the raelians, you know, the ones who claim to have cloned babies. Anyway, they say they are aethiests, and God doesn't exist, but rather, we were created by aliens. Does that make them aethiest? I didn't really know.

[janelle]

My dictionary says an atheist is one who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God. So I suppose the Raelians could believe we were created by aliens but they aren't Gods. And I suppose an atheist could believe they were created but still not believe in a God.

Acually anyone can believe anything they want and label themselves anthing they want. The dictionary just defines atheist as one who does not believe in God.

[Blackerose]

My husband is an atheist. He was brought up a Catholic but totally does not believe any of it. I may not be saying this correctly but he believes in evolution, science, logic, the laws of the universe to name a few. He also says that every "supernatural" event can be explained with science. Not my beliefs but this does lend itself to very interesting discussions here at home.

[janelle]

Tell him the Catholic church doesn't deny evolution. It believes that somewhere along evolutions path a soul was put into the being making him a human. They also say evolution is a theory which the scientists agree with, it's a theory. You cannot prove evolution either.

I bet there are more scientists that believe in God than not. And the study of science convinces them of a God more than anything. Many scientists will say they cannot explain everything with science. And many doctors will say they cannot explain how someone's illness went away when they should have died from it.

Ask him to explain the "Big Bang" theory to you. He might say some gases came together and made the earth. Who created those gases? Keep asking until he says he doesn't know. Then tell him God is as good an answer as any and a better one when you think about it since everything works together with such harmony. A master must be in charge or everything would be chaos.

I would rather believe a Supreme Being that loves me made me than gases coming together that came from somewhere we don't know. The same Supreme Being that took the form of a man and came down from heaven to die for me on the cross so I could spend eternity with Him in heaven. We are made in His image.

[Donnagg123]

Originally posted by Technologist
(people who WANT to be atheists, but aren't strong enough to make the final leap, just in case they MIGHT be wrong...).
Do you think the decision will stick, or are you still checking around, to make sure you are right???

Just wanted to stop in and say you crack me up :)

[Donnagg123]

somehow it double posted? Oh well :)

[Technologist]

Thanks, and I promise to come back here and post more in this thread.....

But in the meantime, I did have one point to make to janelle....


Ask him to explain the "Big Bang" theory to you. He might say some gases came together and made the earth. Who created those gases? Keep asking until he says he doesn't know. Then tell him God is as good an answer as any and a better one when you think about it since everything works together with such harmony. A master must be in charge or everything would be chaos.

Ask a religious person the same thing... You said god created man.... who created god???? keep going till he says I don't know, or there always was a god.....

You end up in the same place.... no can prove the beginning, because someone will ALWAYS come along and say, but what was there before that....

That is where we are handicapped... our intelligence and search for "the truth" forces us to make something up, or fall back on a rationalization,,, which in the end is a cop-out.

so, the bumper sticker might be truer than we realize... $tuff happens!

Sometimes the answer is unknown, and the right answer is BECAUSE...

[janelle]

But of course that is the answer, God created it all. Who created God? No one. He always was and always will be. For eternity. Can we understand eternity? No, because we do not have the mind of God. We won't understand lots of things until we die. What was before that? God was the beginning, the middle, and the end. Hows that for an answer? See religion does have answers.

Never and I mean never argue with a Catholic raised with the nuns teaching them in a Catholic school for years. LOL

Faith is the thing that makes us believe these things. But as I said I'd rather have faith that a loving God created us then in a big bang of gasses that came from who knows where. Yuck.

For those who have faith, the questions are answered, for those who have no faith, the questions will never be answered.

[Technologist]

Janelle, I'm going to go off topic here for a minute.

In the nicest way possible, I have to say that I disagree with your statement / answer above.

It is a rationalization, based upon ingorance (no, I'm not calling you ignorant... I mean it as a lack of knowledge or understanding).

That is all that faith is.... a belief in a person, idea, or thing... and that belief does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.... and in the case of religon, its because there is no proof!

To say that "Faith is the thing that makes us believe these things." is (I'm sorry to say it bluntly) a cop out.... What someone is saying is I don't understand this, and I can't prove it, so god did it....(you could just as easily say it was magic, or the devil, or aliens)!

As an example: I know EXACTLY why a flashlight works. I understand circuits, batteries, bulbs and filaments, and switches. I show a child a flashlight. I turn it on, and he says "how'd you make that light up?". I say I am a holy man, and god has given me power, and when you are older, I will give you powers to make this holy relic work. The child believes me (note the word belief), and believes in this god. He has BLIND FAITH in what I've told him. When he grows up, he does the same to others, and so on, etc... until hundreds of people worship at the "first church of the light"... and anyone that later tries to explain the fallacy of their "church" is a heathen / non-believer / heretic. Just because a group of people believe something doesn't make it true.

Lastly, your statement "I'd rather have faith that a loving God created us then in a big bang of gasses that came from who knows where.", is an emotion-based and illogical statement. What someone wants or likes does not cause something to be true. And it also contradicts your statement further up the page, where you say "... somewhere along evolutions path a soul was put into the being making him a human.". If the church does not deny evolution, and you follow the church's tenets (or doctrine), then you belive in evolution.... meaning there were beings that evolved, without a soul. Yet you believe god created man (or humans, with souls). Which is it, because you can't have both.

Now, can we get this thread back on topic (athieism, and why you (everyone that chooses to reply) is an atheist?).

And this is not a thread for conversion (either to or from any religon or lack of..... It is a discussion about athieism....)

[janelle]

Ok Tech, I'll start another thread on why I believe in a God.

================================================== ===================
That is all that faith is.... a belief in a person, idea, or thing... and that belief does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.... and in the case of religon, its because there is no proof!
================================================== ===================

And that is all Atheism is as well. A theory that no one can prove, like evoloution. Can anyone show me the gasses or what it was that started it all?

Religion does have the answer, the proof, at least a more understandable answer than atheism does. FOLLOW ME, Tech. LOL

[Technologist]

J, Atheism is not a belief..... It is a non-belief. It is a statement that says "I will not believe that there is a mysterious power, which I will blame and/or praise for all things that happen that I don't understand or can't prove".

I will not worship aliens, flashlights, dinosaurs, or a god. I will find the answer to questions logically, and if I can't, then I will search for the answer until I find it. I will not give in and make up a "explanation", in order to put my mind at ease.

Man created god... not the other way around.

C,
First, I didn't ask for proof (of a god, or that god doesn't exist). But here are my counterpoints to your "proof":

"Miracles happen everyday" (show me what you consider a miracle, I can prove it happened naturally (not "supernaturually" using logic) or disprove it).

"ppl get they're prayers answered" (Not me, I pray for Billions of dollars, and world peace).

"God talk to ppl {he has spoken to me before}" (not to me, or anyone I know... and not to be sarcastic or glib... but what did he say?)

ppl are healed (and science has ???Nothing??? to do with that???... and I can also say that innocent people die for no reason... god did that too?)

PS, back off topic... A good discussion is not easy, and I'm happy to see everyone behaving like adults.

[Technologist]

Originally posted by fidellma
I'm kind of new here but I just wanted to ask Tech a question.

Other than having religion shoved down your throat as a child, what are your reasons for not believing in God? Do your reasons stem from your sense of logic or somewhere else?


Answer to question.... I didn't have religon shoved down my throat. and yes, logic says there is no god.... but to try and rewrite the contents of hundreds of books here would be fruitless....

If you want to read a good book, which is VERY scientific and hard to read, read "The selfish gene", by Richard Dawkins. In an explanation of evolution, it does a good job of explaining how God (or gods) cannot logically be the force behind humankind... or any living creature.

After that, read "The Blind Watchmaker"....same author.

[Technologist]

Originally posted by Marinafk
My husband is an atheist. He was brought up a Catholic but totally does not believe any of it. I may not be saying this correctly but he believes in evolution, science, logic, the laws of the universe to name a few. He also says that every "supernatural" event can be explained with science. Not my beliefs but this does lend itself to very interesting discussions here at home.

I think pretty much along the same lines your husband does.... I am still studying evolution (as a hobby, not graded), and zoology (same, hobby only).

If something can't be explained by science, it means that we don't have the knowledge / experience yet.... but we will, because of evolution (which is a fancy way of saying we learn, and adapt).

40 years ago, computers were slow, stupid, and HUGE. People (then) said that in 50 years, computers would be the size of a room in your house (or even as small as a refrigerator....). because at the time, our knowledge of SCIENCE said that was the best we could do.....

Thousands of years ago, per the bible, we made sacrifices to gods.... Were they wrong to do so (thou shall not kill?), or are today's people expected to make human sacrifices???? I think that religon EVOLVED.....

[Technologist]

Originally posted by *chelle*
what exactly is Evolution? im not sure if im clear on what it is

Wow, what a question...... and it'd take years to explain.

Before I go on, you don't have to be an atheist to believe in evolution... or vice versa.

Definition is easy, depending on how far you want to take it.

Evolution, from evolve, meaning to change gradually.

Harder explanation involves math, psychology, biology, statistics, etc...... Changes that occur in offspring, caused by environment, which would give offspring a greater chance of survival against ALL other organisms, in order that their offspring survive, and so on...

PS, off topic.... That is why religon and politics are 2 sides of the same coin, and should never be discussed... your genetics do not allow you to change your thinking, because it is programmed in hereditarily (genetics), yet input (environment) tries to change your thinking.

[Technologist]

In the ground.....

There is no afterlife, no continuation of existence. There is no reason for that, as our offspring are a continuation of "us".... in computer terms, they are the next version (1.1 is first born, 1.2 is second born).

[Technologist]

forgot to add, religon halfway says this, in marriage vows "till death do us part".

If there is an afterlife, and you get remarried, with whom do you spend eternity????? 1st wife??? 5th wife??? What if your 5th wife gets remarried after you die??? who does she spend eternity with????

[Technologist]

Nope, no soul....

[tikitiki]

Originally posted by Technologist
forgot to add, religon halfway says this, in marriage vows "till death do us part".

If there is an afterlife, and you get remarried, with whom do you spend eternity????? 1st wife??? 5th wife??? What if your 5th wife gets remarried after you die??? who does she spend eternity with????

I have the answer but I doubt you'd believe it, sounds like your mind is set so don't want to waste your time.

anyone that's willing to give it a shot, please PM me.

[Technologist]

Here is a "quick review" of the book I recommended above....

It's a must read for those who would like to treat their brain good and give it something to chew on! The way the author presents the relationship/interdependence between body and the genes (vehicles and the replicators) looks like a paradigm shift compared to how Darwin's theory has always been represented, till now! What's nice is Dawkins doesn't jump the idea on you, he takes you smoothly thru the development of replicators in the primeval soup, the result is that by the time the meat of the theory is presented, you would have already been asking the question - why didn't we think of it this way before?

I found it highly interesting the way he discussed the idea/motivation behind family planning, the idea of welfare state, and also rightly questioned the motivations behind the way some 'purist' religious groups and their leaders encourage their followers against use of contraception, some of them even outright encouraging the idea of multiplying like guinea pigs. And if you are curious about why the 'faithful' followers would be gullible enough to listen to those rantings, read the authors take on 'faith' - faith is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness! - I personally have never come across a better definition of 'faith'!

I always liked reading Dawkins because of the lucid ways he explains complex scientific phenomenon. I am sure ESS (Evolutionarily Stable Strategy) has been an extensively researched subject on which many isoteric publications have been there in scientific journals, but the way it's explained here is really easy to understand and at the same time it does not dilute the strength of the idea. Equally interesting is the way in which Dawkins introduced the idea of 'meme' and used it to explain genetically unsuccessful traits (e.g. celibacy, martyrdom and most importantly, altruism), and it is like the light at the end of the selfishness tunnel, he asserts that human being do not have to behave selfishly because they are genetically programmed to do so.

The book is really so packed with ideas it's hard to list down all the interesting questions those 'we' didn't ask, and the answers to those with explanations and interesting excerpts from the animal kingdom, the bottlenecked life cycle (starting life from single cells), phenotypic effects and speculations that human bodies of today might have been a result of mergers of different organisms, whose DNAs still hitch a ride in our cells today! It's simply mind boggling. And don't miss out the endnotes, witness a couple of scientific (or unscientific) theories being ripped apart!

[Willow]

I personally belive that we all have a soul. A soul is made up of energy and there is no way to disperse that energy so when your body dies the soul has to go somewhere. I also believe in reincarnation.

[janelle]

Atheism is a belief. It's a belief to believe nothing. Pretty bleak to me.

I'm sure that book is interesting. Also, confusing. Altruism can be explained by genetics? I thought evolution was suvival of the fittest. I know where he is going with this but then he has a Mother Teresa who only wanted to serve God by serving others. She lived in squallor most of her life to be there for others who were at the end of the evolution scale in some people's minds. Some may say she was crazy but she was one of the happiest people who ever lived. By all rights the people she helped should have died out to make room for the fittest. They didn't and still do not today with the help of others. There are more poor people in the world than rich. The fittest have not taken over yet. Explain that with evolution.

[Technologist]

Gonna have to disagree with the first part... Atheism is a disbelief, or a non-belief (as I said earlier). I believe in nothing....as far as religion is concerned.

As for the second part, I am not evading your question. I had started to write an answer to that, but had to stop..... no matter what I wrote, someone (not necessarily you, or others that have been following this thread) would twist it and make it out to be immoral, or evil, or just plain mean.

But then again, evolution is mean... It doesn't "care" about the individual.... which is why people don't like the idea of evolution, and thus have created "god"... it makes them feel better. As you said, life is pretty bleak if you look at it purely scientifically!

Can this thread go back on topic now????

Any atheists out here???
When did you decide that religion was not all it's cracked up to be?
What made you finally decide?
Do you think the decision will stick, or are you still checking around, to make sure you are right???

[Technologist]

Originally posted by FishmansBetrHalf
Tech, Believe me, I say this with the utmost respect for you as my friend~~~ But you have to BELIEVE in the person you are praying to if you expect those prayers you are praying to get answered. :D ((((Tech))))

I'm still reading in this thread, and will probably have additional comments~~ just had to comment on this. :D

I was religious at one point in my life..... and I may have been a "little" glib when I wrote that part...

I don't pray for anything, because I know those thoughts don't go anywhere.... I know that the only way to "get" something is to do it myself.

PS, love the new siggy.....

[Technologist]

Atheist Discussion
52 replies
999 views
10-09-2003 01:39 PM

This had 400 views this morning......

[curlymae29]

Thousands of years ago, per the bible, we made sacrifices to gods.... Were they wrong to do so (thou shall not kill?), or are today's people expected to make human sacrifices???? I think that religon EVOLVED.....

#1....Thou shall not kill. Means Don't Murder! Killing an animal for food, clothing, etc is acceptable.

#2...At no time in the Bible did God command Human Sacrifices.

#3...Religion didn't evolve...Christ came to earth and gave himself as the ultimate and final sacrifice.


Originally posted by Technologist
forgot to add, religon halfway says this, in marriage vows "till death do us part".

If there is an afterlife, and you get remarried, with whom do you spend eternity????? 1st wife??? 5th wife??? What if your 5th wife gets remarried after you die??? who does she spend eternity with????

The Bible tells the whole...on earth we marry...in the afterlife we will be as the angels...not given in marriage. Marriage doesn't exist.

[Technologist]

Originally posted by curlymae29
#1....Thou shall not kill. Means Don't Murder! Killing an animal for food, clothing, etc is acceptable.

##2...At no time in the Bible did God command Human Sacrifices.


I beg to differ....

1 After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”

2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”

3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.

4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off.

5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the ass; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.”

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here am I, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”

8 Abraham said, “God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.

9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.

10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”

12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (Gen. 22:1-12)

And there is another example (you can look it up): Judges 11:29-40

The only reason I quoted the bible was because you said it wasn't there...

But, back on topic.....

[curlymae29]

12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.” (Gen. 22:1-12)


Excuse me....Who died? Who was Sacrificed? Who????

This was a test of faith. NO SACRIFICE.


As far as Judges? That was not required by God. Jephthah did that. ON HIS OWN.

[curlymae29]

I don't mind you quoting the bible. But keep in mind that when you misquote and misuse it...expect someone to speak up.

[Technologist]

Originally posted by curlymae29
I don't mind you quoting the bible. But keep in mind that when you misquote and misuse it...expect someone to speak up.

1. I did not misquote... in fact, you quoted my quote (verse 12) to prove your point.

2. I was using the quote to counter your statement:



#2...At no time in the Bible did God command Human Sacrifices.


Yes, in the instance I quoted, god commanded that Abraham offer his son.... just because an angel stopped him doesn't mean it wasn't commanded. so, god commanded a human sacrifice, in the bible.

3. Judges.... I'll go either way on that one.... someone offered to sacrifice someone (human or otherwise).... and god accepted that offer (and since god is all knowing, he knew it would be the daughter, yet accepted anyway). So, you're right, god didn't command a human sacrifice.... but he accepted it (which makes me partially right too).

This is one reason I don't depend on bible quotes.... but then again, this thread is for the discussion of atheism, and I shouldn't have to be here defending that, because no one is trying to convert me, right?

ooops, just wanted to add that my #2 (Abraham). That was not a test of faith, it was a test of FEAR.... re-read verse 12.

That is, if I believed the bible....

[curlymae29]

But the angel of the LORD called to him

OF THE LORD....Who do you think commanded the Angel?

The Lord was with Jephthah BEFORE Jephthah made that vow. It wasn't needed. It was his bad judgement. Where does it say God accepted it anyway?

[curlymae29]

You are misusing these stories to support your claims of human sacrifice in the bible.

[Technologist]

First off, this is a discussion about atheism.... The title and first post say that.

Now, you came in and took one of my replies to someone else and twisted it out of context..... I was discussing evolution, and you turned it into a "biblical" discussion.

I've answered you, on your terms, using your source.

YOU SAID, (not me): QUOTE - "At no time in the Bible did God command Human Sacrifices." ENDQUOTE... (and I quoted you directly, without interpretation). You did not say that the bible did not have any human sacrifices... you said "At no time in the Bible did God command Human Sacrifices."

I responded with proof... I did not misquote, or misuse anything. Your book, not mine, PROVES that god did command human sacrifice.... IT DOES NOT MATTER THAT ABRAHAM DID NOT ACTUALLY FINISH THE SACRIFICE... god still commanded it.

So, this is the last I will discuss this..... I am only going to respond to questions that are on topic... about atheism.

[curlymae29]

forgot to add, religon halfway says this, in marriage vows "till death do us part".


Thousands of years ago, per the bible, we made sacrifices to gods.... Were they wrong to do so (thou shall not kill?), or are today's people expected to make human sacrifices???? I think that religon EVOLVED.....


You brought the bible into this. I just pointed out your errors and misgivings.


Even though this is an open forum...I'll respect your wishes and stay out.

[Technologist]

I didn't say please leave, I asked to keep it on topic.

Okay, technically, I did use the bible as a source when discussing evolution. You said I was wrong, so I proved that I wasn't. And we both used the same source.

I'm not sure what my quote has to do with this; as I said before I was discussing evolution. You will also notice that I said gods.... not God or god. That means I was saying that people, long ago, made sacrifices to gods... and that religion today does not expect sacrifices. It was to prove a point that people, religion, etc, EVOLVES!

And the first quote "till death do us part"... That was from a totally different discussion, with a different person, and has no bearing on this conversation. We were discussing what happens when you die... no bible stuff there either.

[janelle]

Ok Tech since Atheism isn't a belief then it is a non-belief of a belief. It doesn't believe the belief in a God so it is the non-belief in the belief in God. Oh my head hurts.

In my view it is still a belief to not believe but still a belief. Otherwise it is a nothing so why are we haveing a discussion on something that doesn't exist????? And what color is air?? If you believe in Atheism that isn't there then why is it so hard to believe in a God you can't see?

[janelle]

The only sacrifices made to the Jewish God in the old testament were animal sacrifices. The Jews never made any human sacrifices. They would sacrifice a spotless lamb to God. That spotless lamb became Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus was sacrificed for us to atone for our sins and to open the gates of heaven that had been closed to us with the sin of Adam and Eve. We have an awesome God.

Also, fear in the bible means respect not the fear we think of today. We must understand the Jewish culture to fully understand the bible. Respect of the Lord, not fear. We want our children to respect us not fear us, same with God.

God may have commanded Abraham to scrafice his only son to see if Abraham respected and obeyed the Lord. At no time did God expect Abraham to go through with it. The bible tells us that in so many words.

Don't let people quote only part of a passage in the bible. How would you like me to quote only half of what you say? I could make you sound like a mad man if I did that. And we all know our Tech is a cute little sweetie pie who wouldn't hurt anyone. One of the best guys around. I've been hearing tales about you. LOL J/K

[tikitiki]

Originally posted by janelle Ok Tech since Atheism isn't a belief then it is a non-belief of a belief. It doesn't believe the belief in a God so it is the non-belief in the belief in God. Oh my head hurts.


Originally posted by FishmansBetrHalf
After reading that statement, now MY head hurts... Going to see what there is on TV to watch. Be back later. LOL


:eek:

[MrUnsocial]

Ok, I'm going to skip over all the Bible arguements, I'm not going there. One of the original questions, I think, was why I didn't believe in God.

To me, the Bible just isn't logical. Evolution is. Even with some unexplained things, it still makes more sense to me than the Bible. Sort of the way most people feel about Greek mythology. That's the way I look at the Bible, that it is like the Greek stories of Zuess, Lodi, etc. I think most people just need something to believe in. Maybe it brings comfort to believe in a higher power, or that all things happen for a reason or that there is an all-powerful God to take care of things. Or maybe it's like someone else said, too bleak an existance with out having some sort of God in their lives.

I did go to church for a long time and even TRIED to believe, but in my heart, I just can't. My wife and I have some good debates on this subject, good thing we love each other so much.

Also, the questions that evolution leaves, will be explained in time. As we learn more. Like I tell Hippie, "I DO believe in something....the food chain"!

She hates that, LOL!

[janelle]

It seems as though more men are atheists than women. Can you tell me why that is? I have a theory that since women nuture live inside them they can know the wonder of the universe more then men do. They bring to life this little miracle that is a wonder to them. A feeling that a higher power must be in charge for so wonderful a thing to happen to them.

[MrUnsocial]

My wife does believe in God, but not in any organized religion. In fact, she RANTS about organized religion! It's kind of weird around here sometimes, she celebrates a lot of Pagan holidays, mostly Cherokee, she celebrates the earth & seasons. Our dot enjoys these celebrations. But neither of us tell her what to believe. She's too young to understand now, but I hope she comes to her own decision about things when she older. I guess we'll both talk about what we believe so she can better choose her own path.

I would never try to force my beliefs (or lack thereof) onto her.

Ok, off topic, I know. Back to the discussion.

[jaimethepooh]

Originally posted by janelle
. They bring to life this little miracle that is a wonder to them. A feeling that a higher power must be in charge for so wonderful a thing to happen to them.

i've had two children and have not felt any "higher power" more like happines that I have created something wonderful

the whole point of this thread is for atheists to discuss with eachother, not to have someone elses religion pushed on them, so lets leave the christianity out of it and get back to the main point.

[Willow]

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/deconversion.shtml

I thought this was an interesting story.

[Willow]

http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/faq.shtml

Frequently Asked Questions About the Big Bang and Early Universe

This document will attempt to address common questions about the origins of the Universe to the extent that modern cosmology can answer them. Many scientific laymen are confused by the Big Bang and automatically resort to God as an explanation since they can't understand it. Creationists just decide to throw the theory out as invalid because they can't understand it and hide behind Genesis as a solution. My hope is that this will show people that God is not a required explanation for the Big Bang, because, frankly, it gets irritating. If we resorted to God for every unknown phenomenon we came across, very little would get accomplished. There are going to be a lot of "could be's" in this document. Most are my own opinions on the origins of the Universe. If you'd like a question answered that isn't answered here, please E-mail me. I'm an astronomy student, and I'd be happy to try and answer some questions. If I can't, I'll see if my professor can. If he can't, wait five years, then ask again. ;)

How big was the Universe at the beginning?

The Universe was in a singularity condition "before" the Big Bang (notice the quotes), meaning that it was infinitesimally small. All distance separations were zero, meaning that there was no space. Since there was no space in the Universe's singularity condition, it is impossible to accurately express how small it was. As a consequence of the absence of space, there was no time, either.

Did the Big Bang create everything in the Universe?

The law of conservation of energy prohibits the spontaneous formation from nothing. You cannot create or destroy energy or momentum. There is a finite amount of energy (matter and energy are two forms of the same thing by E=mc2) in the Universe that is always the same. If the Big Bang theory proposed that everything was created in an explosion, it would violate the most fundamental law of physics. The only reason science can even exist is if we make the assumption that the laws of physics are constant anywhere and everywhere at all times, and this is a quite reasonable assumption. There's no evidence of a period when the laws of physics were not in effect. However, it is impossible to say for sure, because our current physics does not take us back past 10-43s after the big bang. In that small amount of time, virtually anything can happen.

What caused the explosion in the Big Bang? Something must have created all that matter and energy and caused it to explode.

No one really knows what caused the explosion, but that's certainly no reason to defer to some sort of divine intervention. The early Universe could have existed as a very unstable, very massive particle that underwent its decay with the Big Bang as its mechanism. The other common question that everyone has is, "Where did the mass in the Universe come from?" The answer, simply, is nowhere. The mass in the Universe has always existed. General relativity postulates that the Big Bang would have begun time because, in a singularity state (like what the Universe was in just before the Big Bang), there is no time. The Universe has, quite literally, existed for all time. The relativity of time and its consequences is by far one of the most difficult concepts for the scientific layman to grasp. Most people say that they know time is relative, but they have no idea what that implies for the early Universe. The relativity of time means that there was no "before" the Big Bang. Time is not a straight line concept. Time on the sun passes at a different rate than it does here on Earth due to the difference in the gravitational disturbance that it creates. There is a reason why we call it "spacetime." Space and time are interconnected. Since we know that mass creates warps in space, it creates warps in time, as well. There is no "absolute time." In other words, there is no "correct" timeline. As such, there is no correct spot to watch an event take place from. So, in a way, Einstein's Relativity disallows for the existence of God. If there was an omniscient God, he'd be in an absolute frame of reference, on an absolute timeline. According to Relativity, this cannot exist. Time's existence really can't even be accurately described. Time simply exists, as does the universe. There was no point where the Universe's mass just popped into existence. The Universe is infinitely existing. It has always existed, and will always exist.

If the universe has always existed and will always exist, how do we get to this point in time? How am I living in the present? Shouldn't it have taken the universe an infinite amount of time to get to this point? And, if it takes an infinite amount of time to get to this point, we should have never gotten to this point, right? I can't get to infinity. In an infinite aged universe I suspect that "the present" is impossible.

The Universe has always existed, but time hasn't. You can't view time as one timeline. Time is relative, meaning that it depends on your frame of reference. Without multiple frames of reference, there is no time. That's why time began with the Big Bang, because it created multiple frames of reference. Also, I'd like to point those really curious about this question to our friend, Calculus. Specifically, derivation. For those of you who haven't taken Calculus, or have simply forgotten, derivation is finding the exact rate of change on a line at one given point. How big is a point on a graph? Infinitesimally small. When you want to find a car's acceleration on a line graph of its velocity at one, single point, you must derive it. Thus, you are dividing the line up into an infinite number straight lines, and finding the slope of the straight line at a given point. This should show that it is possible to work finitely in an infinite world.

As yet another aside, you can't divide the Universal "timeline" up into units smaller than 10-43 of a second. This is known as Plank Time, and it is the smallest possible unit of time that observable event can take place in.

But, something must have created the mass in the Universe!

There is no reason to think that. We have no evidence of a time when the Universe did not exist, because it has existed for all time. Stop trying to rationalize your belief in God. You won't get very far.

You're just being stubborn! You atheists are just trying to find ways to get around the crystal-clear explanation that God created everything!

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing! God is the worst possible explanation for physical phenemomena! Saying that "God did it" doesn't help science advance at all, since it describes no working mechanisms, makes no predictions and therefore is not testable. Just because the physics of the present cannot answer your questions doesn't mean that they can't be answered. Newtonian physics couldn't explain the working mechanisms of the sun, but then particle physics came along and answered that question. Relativity and quantum physics cannot take us back to further than 10-43 of a second after the Big Bang occured, but someone in the future might. The bottom line is this: If we'd left the sun to "God's work" then we'd have no knowledge of nuclear physics, and a great deal of technology (like this computer) would be impossible. God is an unacceptable answer in science, as well as logic. This is why faith in God is irrational.

Since entropy exists, and all energy is slowly becoming less useful, and someday in the future all energy will be completely evenly spread out over the cosmos and of no use to anyone, doesn't your statement imply that, in the universe's infinite past, energy/mass must have been infinitely the other way around? And, how is that possible?

Entropy started with the Big Bang. "Before" the Big Bang (and I use that term loosely), the Universe was in a singularity condition. There was no space, no time and no distance. All mass existed at exactly one point, defined by its own existence, because there was no volume around it (confused yet?). Because of this, all reactions taking place took place instantaneously, in zero time, because there was no time, because there was no distance, because there was no space. Without any of these, entropy doesn't happen. The Big Bang is responsible for the Universe's current incarnation, that is all. It has always existed, according to the most basic assumption in physics and of science.

[Technologist]

Originally posted by Patchouli
http://www.daltonator.net/durandal/creationism/faq.shtml

Frequently Asked Questions About the Big Bang and Early Universe
...

QUESTION - You're just being stubborn! You atheists are just trying to find ways to get around the crystal-clear explanation that God created everything!

Yes, that's exactly what we're doing! God is the worst possible explanation for physical phenemomena! Saying that "God did it" doesn't help science advance at all, since it describes no working mechanisms, makes no predictions and therefore is not testable. Just because the physics of the present cannot answer your questions doesn't mean that they can't be answered. Newtonian physics couldn't explain the working mechanisms of the sun, but then particle physics came along and answered that question. Relativity and quantum physics cannot take us back to further than 10-43 of a second after the Big Bang occured, but someone in the future might. The bottom line is this: If we'd left the sun to "God's work" then we'd have no knowledge of nuclear physics, and a great deal of technology (like this computer) would be impossible. God is an unacceptable answer in science, as well as logic. This is why faith in God is irrational.


Thanks for the link (and posting the text)....

Next, sorry about the long post.... but I have a lot to say this time!

If I can generalize.... this one statement pretty much sums up a MAJOR reason that atheists do not, and CAN NOT, put faith in any "god".

Giving up on finding an answer to a question (by either "making up" a higher power, or by believing in someone else's "fable" about a higher power) is irrational.

If a child asks you "why is the sky blue?", and you say any of the following, you are hindering that child's search for the truth:

1. Just because...
2. Because God made it that way...
3. Because the sun paints it blue as it goes across the sky
4. The air changes color, the higher up it gets (or the colder it gets)...

The real answer lies in science, which gives a proof, based on facts and physics, AS WE KNOW THEM TODAY!

PS, the answer is:

The light in the sky is simply scattered sunlight. The scattering by small particles (in a clear sky, it is the air molecules, N2, O2, and others) is greater at the violet end of the spectrum. The color of the sky is composed of violet -- our eyes are not very sensitive to violet -- lots of blue, and decreasing amounts of green, yellow, and red. The sum appears to our eyes as "sky blue". If you observe the sky with an optical spectrometer, you note the blue sky has a broad band of colors, extending from the blue and fading toward the red.

This explanation also shows why salt crystals (which are clear) appear to be white when clumped together, and why the foam on top of a beer is white, when the beer itself is amber (or even brown)...

and thanks to everyone for getting this back on topic....:D :D :D

[Willow]

Originally posted by Technologist
Thanks for the link (and posting the text)....

Next, sorry about the long post.... but I have a lot to say this time!

If I can generalize.... this one statement pretty much sums up a MAJOR reason that atheists do not, and CAN NOT, put faith in any "god".

Giving up on finding an answer to a question (by either "making up" a higher power, or by believing in someone else's "fable" about a higher power) is irrational.

If a child asks you "why is the sky blue?", and you say any of the following, you are hindering that child's search for the truth:

1. Just because...
2. Because God made it that way...
3. Because the sun paints it blue as it goes across the sky
4. The air changes color, the higher up it gets (or the colder it gets)...

The real answer lies in science, which gives a proof, based on facts and physics, AS WE KNOW THEM TODAY!

PS, the answer is:

The light in the sky is simply scattered sunlight. The scattering by small particles (in a clear sky, it is the air molecules, N2, O2, and others) is greater at the violet end of the spectrum. The color of the sky is composed of violet -- our eyes are not very sensitive to violet -- lots of blue, and decreasing amounts of green, yellow, and red. The sum appears to our eyes as "sky blue". If you observe the sky with an optical spectrometer, you note the blue sky has a broad band of colors, extending from the blue and fading toward the red.

This explanation also shows why salt crystals (which are clear) appear to be white when clumped together, and why the foam on top of a beer is white, when the beer itself is amber (or even brown)...

and thanks to everyone for getting this back on topic....:D :D :D

You're welcome. I'm finding it very interesting myself. :)

[janelle]

Ok let's get back to the topic. Are more men atheist then women or is there no data on that?

As far as people being Atheist they are a very small minority. 96% of people in our country believe in a higher power.

[Donnagg123]

Depends on what you meant by atheist. From the website http:www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9187.htm+what+percentage+of+the+world+is+atheis t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8:
Suffice it to say that if by atheist you mean somebody who consciously and deliberately rejects as falsehood the claim that gods exist, we're about four percent. If by atheist you mean somebody who lacks belief in gods for whatever reason (and this form of atheism is compatible with the agnosticism that simply doesn't know), then we're over one-fifth of the world's population.

as far as men or women being more atheist I did not find anything. HTH

[janelle]

One fifth of the world's population? Such a small amount of people. I would say a very small minority. Makes me wonder how our country gives atheists so much press and agrees with taking God out of everything public.

We have a majority who has given up defending their freedoms to a small vocal minority. Not to start a fight but it's a very strange truth. :confused: The stats prove it. ?????

[Donnagg123]

Sorry to get off topic, but this is the breakdown of all religions as of 2000 for the world. Notice that even though chrisitanity is the largest they are by far not even half. Almost 70% of the world are NOT christian, but makes you wonder why that is the religion we are always hearing about.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.gif

[ckerr4]

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: This is a highly disparate group and not a single religion. Although atheists are a small subset of this grouping, this category is not synonymous with atheism. Atheists actually make up less than one-tenth of one percent of the population in many countries where large numbers claim no religious preference, such as the United States (7.5% nonreligious) and Australia (15% nonreligious).

One portion of this broad grouping includes those who are best described as "nonreligious," i.e., those who are essentially passive with regards to religion, generally affirming neither belief nor disbelief. They may be neither contemplative about philosophy and spirituality nor involved in a religious/faith/philosophical community. Although a certain percentage of people in many countries classify themselves as nonreligious in surveys, there are few data indicating how many of these fit the passive "nonreligious" criteria described above, versus those who actually do contemplate such matters, but simply have their own personal philosophy and no stated affiliation with an organized religion.

For the purposes of this list, this grouping also includes more proactive or well-defined philosophies such as secular humanism, atheism, agnosticism, deism, pantheism, freethought, etc., most of which can be classified as religions in the sociological sense, albeit secular religions.

The "Secular/Nonreligious/etc." category is probably the most speculative estimate in this list, as this segment of society is difficult to count. The vast majority in this grouping are not aligned with any kind of membership organization. Most figures come from census and survey data, which most countries conduct only infrequently.

The highest figure we have for "Nonreligious" is 20% of the world population, or about 1.2 billion: "Over 20 percent of the world's population does not claim any allegiance to a religion. Most are agnostics. Others are atheists, who deny the existence of God." (O'Brien, Joanne & Martin Palmer. The State of Religion Atlas. Simon & Schuster: New York (1993). Pg 41.) But such a high figure is difficult to support with current country-by-country statistics, and perhaps reflects Communist-era official government statistics. Most current estimates of the world number of secular/nonreligious/agnostic/atheist/etc. are between 800 and 1 billion.

Estimates for atheism alone range from 200 to 240 million. But these come primarily from China and former Soviet Union nations (especially Russia). Prior to Communist takeovers of these regions and government attempts to eradicate religion, both places had very high levels of affiliation with organized religions (especially Islam, Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism), as well as high levels of participation in and belief in traditional local traditions such as shamanism, ancestor ceremonies, spiritism, etc. Since the fall of Communism in former Soviet nations and the relaxation of anti-religious policies in China, observed religious affiliation and activity has increased dramatically, especially in Christianity, Buddhism, and Islam.

China probably does have the largest number of actual atheists of any country in the world and many Russians clearly remain atheists. But at this point, it is impossible to accurately determine how many of those classified as atheists or nonreligious during Communist-era USSR and by the current Chinese government are actually atheists according to their personal beliefs, and how many are unregistered religious adherents or participants in less-organized traditional systems that are oriented around ancestors, animism, shamanism, etc. Many people are unaware, for instance, that China has one of the largest, most active Christian communities in the world, and that in many former Soviet nations religions such as shamanism, Islam and Russian Orthodoxy remained even while official government reports announced the elimination of religion in these regions.

In the Western world, Europe is by far the place with the most self-avowed nonreligious, atheists and agnostics, with the nonreligious proportion of the population particularly high in Scandinavia. The Encyclopedia Britannica reports approximately 41 million atheists in Europe. The self-described nonreligious segment of society in Australia and New Zealand is also high, at around 15%. In Australia less than a tenth of one percent described themselves as atheists in the latest national census (1996). In the U.S. about 7.5% of the population describe themselves as nonreligious, 0.7% describe themselves as agnostic, and a smaller number describe themselves as atheist (Kosmin, National Survey of Religious Identification, 1990).

All those who profess religious belief are not necessarily registered members of a church or denomination, but in the U.S. the majority of professed Christians and adherents of other religions are also officially affiliated with an organization. The majority of agnostics, atheists and of course nonreligious are not members of an organization associated with their position.

It may also be noted that the estimated figures presented in this particular "Major Religions" summary list are based on self-identification. Among all groups there exists a proportion (sometimes significant and sometimes small) which are only nominal adherents. This segment may identify themselves as members of a certain religion and accept the religion as their primary philosophical system, yet not actively practice the religion in the normative sense. This segment may be thought of as being functionally nonreligious or "secularized," but this segment is not what is meant by the "nonreligious" category on this Major Religious list. Accurate estimates of the size of this group are difficult to obtain because national government censuses only ask about preferred affiliation, not about religious practice. There are data available from non-census sampling surveys that ask about practice and belief, but these are usually limited in scope to narrow questions such as church attendance, and do not entirely reveal the proportion of society which is non-attending, but nevertheless privately practicing and/or believing. In many countries (Germany is a good example) there is also segment of the population which is counted as adherents of a religion, but which do not personally profess belief in that religion. (Adherents.com has some such data in its main list under "attendance" and under "poll".) See also: Top 10 Countries with Most Atheists.

The use of the term "nonreligious" or "secular" here refers to belief or participation in systems which are not traditionally labeled "religions." Of course, in the absence of traditional religions, society exhibits the same behavioral, social and psychological phenomena associated with religious cultures, but in association with secular, political, ethnic, commercial or other systems. Marxism and Maoism, for instance, had their scriptures, authority, symbolism, liturgy, clergy, prophets, proselyting, etc. Sports, art, patriotism, music, drugs, mass media and social causes have all been observed to fulfill roles similar to religion in the lives of individuals -- capturing the imagination and serving as a source of values, beliefs and social interaction. In a broader sense, sociologists point out that there are no truly "secular societies," and that the word "nonreligious" is a misnomer. Sociologically speaking, "nonreligious" people are simply those who derive their worldview and value system primarily from alternative, secular, cultural or otherwise nonrevealed systems ("religions") rather than traditional religious systems. Like traditional religions, secular systems (such as Communism, Platonism, Freudian psychology, Nazism, pantheism, atheism, nationalism, etc.) typically have favored spokespeople and typically claim to present a universally valid and applicable Truth. Like traditional religions, secular systems are subject to both rapid and gradual changes in popularity, modification, and extinction.

These are some of the factors which make estimating the size of the secular (nonreligious, agnostic, atheist, etc.) segment of society difficult.

Detailed statistics on atheism can be found in the paper by Andrew Greeley and Wolfgang Jagodzinski: The Demand for Religion: Hard Core Atheism and "Supply Side" Theory.

[MrUnsocial]

Thanks for posting that ckerr.

[ckerr4]

yw!

[janelle]

Donnagg--we hear a lot about Christians because this is America USA. Do the stats on us and see what you come up with. I would say we are a Christian nation by far.

Do atheists in China and Russia count? When your goverment tells you that you will not believe in God or worship Him and if you do you will go to prison? We all know there are underground religions there. I would't take those stats as true. Only in a free country will you get close to the truth.

I know a Chinese man who came here for schooling. He has become a Christian but if or when he goes back to China he will have a very hard time practicing it and worshiping. If he wants to he will have to go underground and find other Christians who get together in the dark and hide to worship. Sad but true.

He and his family were told to get abortions and his first child was aborted. He has a little girl and his wife just had another baby girl. If he goes back and has other children they will probably be aborted. I'm glad he was able to have another child here in our free country.

[curlymae29]

Well said Janelle! And it's not just in China where the stats aren't true because of no freedom of religion.

My brother & his wife adopted a beautiful little girl from China. She was left in a stairwell. My sis-in-law said that in that part of China (for some) it was illegal to get pregnate, illegal to have an abortion, illegal to keep the child, illegal to abandon.

The result...Many orphans!

[Blackerose]

Russia hasn't been communist in over 10 years, the churches are open, have been restored and people do attend services. It's true that quite a few people are atheist, but the Orthodox church has seen a resurgence there. I have quite a few relatives still living in Russia and this is what they've told me.

[hotllama]

I'm an agnostic. Is that close enough for you Technologist?

I'm a "hard" rather than a "soft" agnostic, which means that I not only don't know whether there is a higher being, I don't believe that humans are capable of knowing for sure. And, in the end, I'm not entirely sure it matters.

[justme23]

Originally posted by *chelle*
what is a agnostic?

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
Date: 1869
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
- ag·nos·ti·cism /-t&-"si-z&m/ noun

[hotllama]

Chelle,

Agnostic literally means "without knowledge," meaning, in religious terms, that the person does not know whether or not there is a higher deity/being/whatever, and the person does not claim to know which religion is the "right" religion. However, just like any other system of belief or non-belief (including atheism, Christianity, any other religion or ethical stance), agnostics actually vary fairly widely in what, specifically, they believe or don't believe.

Usually, agnostics are referred to as being "hard" or "soft." (There are also other words that people use that mean the same things basically). Hard agnostics are people who (like me) believe that, not only do they not know whether there is a higher being, but no one else is capable of truly knowing either. Soft agnostics simply believe that they do not know and accept the possibility that some people are capable of knowing (in whatever ways that might be).

It is important to note that most agnostics are not anti-religion, really. However, most of them do not attend any form of religious ceremonies/services regularly. Tomorrow, I'm going to look for a link to maybe explain this better, but right now I'm extremely tired, so I'm going to bed instead. I hope that this helped a bit.

[MrUnsocial]

Originally posted by janelle
Do atheists in China and Russia count? When your goverment tells you that you will not believe in God or worship Him and if you do you will go to prison? We all know there are underground religions there. I would't take those stats as true. Only in a free country will you get close to the truth.


The atheists in Russia and China (and other parts of the world) do count. They are not atheists because the government tells them to be. They are atheists because they don't believe in God.

Even if the Russian government TOLD them be atheists, (which they don't) that wouldn't make them one. If they believe in a God, even if their governtment wouldn't let them worship, they would NOT be an atheist. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe, not someone who isn't allowed to worship.

Janelle, you are a christian, and even if tomorrow our government stopped letting you go to church, you would stil be christian, right? It wouldn't make you an atheist if you could get to church.

[chooch]

a pagan? I saw the agnostic definition and the atheist definition but not the definition of a pagan.

Just to put my two cents in-I know there is God because I see Him in everyone I meet. I also see Him in everyone who responded to this post. May He bless you all with understanding and the proof you need to see Him inside of you.

[janelle]

Very good point, but if tomorrow my goverment told me I couldn't worship then I would be very intimadated when someone asked me if I was a Christian or athesist. If the goverment is athesist and wanted it's citizens to be athesist I would probably say I'm athesist because then the goverment wouldn't come around to see if I was worshiping. These people have been put into jail for practicing their faith.

How can we know what goes on in a country that isn't free? I am very skpetical of their stats. You don't need to be told to be athesist to feel intimidated to fall into line when Christians and other religions are persecuted. People just practice their faith underground and you are not going to find out about that.

[Willow]

Originally posted by chooch
a pagan? I saw the agnostic definition and the atheist definition but not the definition of a pagan.

Just to put my two cents in-I know there is God because I see Him in everyone I meet. I also see Him in everyone who responded to this post. May He bless you all with understanding and the proof you need to see Him inside of you.


This link might be helpful.....

http://sanfords.net/Pagan_Humor_and_Thoughts/witchcraft_commonly_asked_questions.htm

[janelle]

http://www.beliefnet.com/

For those who want an explaination of the different religions of the world and non-religions I think this is the best place to go. They are excellent in explaining.

[Willow]

I know that Tech wants to keep this thread on topic so I won't post anymore on Paganism but if you're insterested there are several other threads on it if you want to look through them.

http://home.earthlink.net/~josquin88/


One of the best aspects of the Wiccan way, and indeed the whole modern Pagan movement, is its unstructured nature. Unfortunately, this also allows for a lot of silliness. I'm sure we've all run into books that promise outlandish abilities, and recommend practices that are patently contrary to what we've been taught about Pagan ethics. We need to keep our wits about us. It really is a jungle out there.
Those most at risk are the new students, people exploring Wicca for the first time. As with any religion, it seems that those who are most vocal about their beliefs often constitute the "fringe." It's seldom easy for the seeker to locate down-to-earth, sound advice. That is the purpose of this page. I will try to offer practical tips, as well as some ritual material, both for the holidays and any old day. Use and amend as you see fit. Our needs are different, after all.

As always, if you have any suggestions, comments, or material you'd like included at this site, feedback is one of my favorite things. Let me know.


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Who am I, and what am I doing here?
My spiritual journey began with Catholicism, a circumstance I have since found to be quite common. Since then, my wanderings have resembled a ride on the bumper cars as much as anything more organized. I don't think I've tried everything, but I definitely hit most of the highlights. I came to Paganism through the loving guidance of a good friend and the writings of Scott Cunningham. Both remain, to me, bright and rational voices in the wilderness.

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For those taking their first steps along this path
Probably the best advice I can give you is that no one will ever be a better judge of what's right for you than you are. Obviously, you have come to this point in your journey for a reason, and that's wonderful. But picking and choosing is probably the most important thing you can do right now. If you go looking for advice and instruction, particularly over the net, you're going to get it, by the boatload. It's up to you to determine what feels right, and what doesn't work for you.
There are many different Wiccan traditions (more all the time, it seems), and they all have something to offer the new student of the Craft. This does not mean that they are right for everyone. Successful practice of Wicca, at its most basic, is the communion between you and the deities, however you perceive them. If something you are told to do makes you uncomfortable, don't do it. It is up to you to make your peace with the Old Ones. If, for example, this means working with your clothes on, fine. No one can tell you you're wrong. If you don't want to name your deities, or if you want to come up with brand new names, this is all strictly up to you.

Remember, one of the hallmarks of Paganism is tolerance. If you start hearing that there is only one correct way to practice, you should consider this a serious red flag. Learn what you can, from every source you can get your hands on. Follow your heart, and be careful.

[chooch]

I appreciate your help.
May God bless all of you!

[akkia]

First off: If you're not an atheist, feel free to come in and read. Do NOT come in to start a fight, lecture, belittle, etc. If you don't agree with what is being said, hit the back button.

I find it rather odd that you would follow that statement with this one:


I'm not looking for agnostics (people who WANT to be atheists, but aren't strong enough to make the final leap, just in case they MIGHT be wrong...).

I consider that to belittle agnostics...implying that they are weak because they dont agree with you.

At any rate, and hopefully agnostics know this, the "just in case" theory doesn't work. At least as far as Christianity goes. You either are a believer or you are not. Waiting until you die to find out is not an option. At that point, when you discover that God is very real, its too late.


As a Christian I have made my choice as to what and who I belive in. I think everyone has that right, so I am not here to bash anyone I just found your two quotes in conflict.

Now on to your original questions...


When did you decide that religion was not all it's cracked up to be?


**You are right!...Religion isn't all its cracked up to be! Thats because we have more people concerned with playing a Christian than actually being one!

**What is all its cracked up to be? God and his son Jesus and the words of the Bible! (JMO-not trying to convert anyone)

[tiznhcet]

Any atheists out here??? Yes
When did you decide that religion was not all it's cracked up to be? About 15 year ago if not more.
What made you finally decide? Woke up and decided enough with the b.s.
Do you think the decision will stick, or are you still checking around, to make sure you are right??? Yep stuck good. My wife and I both agree on what is right and are raising our kids to know the truth.

My wife and I were both raised in Luthern backgrounds, she also had some Catholic up bringing. As I got older I was finally given the choice to go to church or stay home. Staying home made more sense. My wife went to church with friends growing up and went to every church out there. When we married we did not marry in a church but had a pastor marry us to just please our families.

To myself and my wife personally - no offense to others please - but the bible and all the religous beliefs are just nice stories followed and played about for years and years. To US - they don't make sense, they don't explain the world as it truely is. To US no GOD would allow wars, poverty, unnessary death, diseases or everything that happens in the world. To US there is no GOD and never was a GOD.

[janelle]

Not gonna try to convert you--not allowed anyway--- but it sounds like the both of you have been hurt a lot. JMO

[tiznhcet]

Are you referring to me when you say both of us have been hurt a lot? If you are referring to me or my wife you are very wrong.
We both had and continue to have wonderful lives that have only improved with no religion. I am very happy you will not try to convert me since it would be a huge waste of time on both parts. You feel you know what is right and I feel I know what is right. No hurt and no shame for my actions.

[heavenheir]

I consider myself a Christian and I can tell you from personal experience that Christians are not perfect nor do we have all the answers. It's natural to wonder "Why does God allow..." and sometimes it is difficult to come to terms with.

Believing in God and His Son Jesus is an individual matter because everyone has the free will to make their own choices. IMO bad things are allowed to happen because people used their free will to harm other people. Since the beginning of time when sin first entered the world, bad things happened as a result of that sin. God didn't do it, people did it. How can anyone make sense of situations like: child molesters; spouse abuse; elder abuse; serial killers; muggers; thieves; arsonists; hate mongers; etc. There is a lot more than could be added but my point is that there always has been bad people, and there always will be.

I don't mean to give a sermon or to alienate anyone and I apologize if I have harmed anyone--it was not intentional. I think of those individuals who say they forgive their child's killer and I wonder how they can do that. My Mom was in her 70's numerous years ago when she was mugged; her coat was ripped off her back before she was thrown to the ground, and this was in the dead of WINTER. I had thoughts of finding this man and his accomplice who stole her Christmas money, her winter coat, and her peace of mind. I was wanting to kill them for hurting my sweet Mother who has never even so much as spoke an unkind word to anybody. I never could have done it but I wanted to try, and I would have liked the opportunity to beat them to a pulp--of course someone would have had to hold them down for me LOL.

My point is that no matter what, what happened to my Mom was ONLY the fault of those 2 men, they did that to her, not anyone else--not even God. But IMHO I do believe that God protected my Mom from further harm, I believe He sent a neighbor outside at that exact moment to scare the men off, and had that wonderful neighbor's wife to offer my Mom some hot cocoa (in her warm home) and a open heart to listen until I could get home and let her into her own home. (yes, they stole her keys when they took the coat). I apologize for rambling on, but in my life I have experienced too many things to believe anything other than in God's love and compassion. Yes, bad things happen but God is there by our side helping us to deal with people's ill will. The key is not to have "religion" but a "relationship".
Hope no one was offended--this is just my opinion.

[janelle]

Thanks heavenheir. I guess lots of people blame God for all the evil in this world or decide there is no God if their is evil. Evil came about when one of the angels that God had created decided to be God and take over heaven. Then evil was born. If Adam and Eve didn't listen to this fallen angel they would have had eternal life forever and humans would not have ever had to deal with evil.

God gives each of us free will and it is up to us what we will do with it. Many people decide to do evil things with their free will, God will not stop them but God is not to blame for their actions. I could blame tiznhcet for my poor decisions but would that be right. That would just be rationalizing away what I did. Scapegoating him. Another evil decision. And I don't say tiznhcet doesn't exist cause I don't like evil.

Since tiznhcet you have gone to many churches you have learned all this. That is why I say something or someone has disappointed or hurt you and your wife. The people in the church have fallen short not God.
But God has given you free will and even He will not force you to believe. It makes Him sad and He wants to have a relationship with you but He will leave it up to you to decide.

[Willow]

Originally posted by Technologist
First off: If you're not an atheist, feel free to come in and read. Do NOT come in to start a fight, lecture, belittle, etc. If you don't agree with what is being said, hit the back button.

Just as I do not come into the other discussion threads and TC, do not come here and TC. AND before someone gets uptight and hits the "report this to a moderator" button.... "Religion" and "Lack of Religion" are 2 sides of the same coin... in other words, it DOES belong in this forum!

That being said... Any atheists out here??? I'm not looking for agnostics (people who WANT to be atheists, but aren't strong enough to make the final leap, just in case they MIGHT be wrong...).

When did you decide that religion was not all it's cracked up to be?

What made you finally decide?

Do you think the decision will stick, or are you still checking around, to make sure you are right???

Just bumping! It looks like posts are getting off topic again.

[Njean31]

if we didn't have bad/evil in this world then we wouldn't know what good is. free will is the deal! i'm sorry by the way in participating in the thread crapping here, especially the thread of a moderator, but just had to add a cent.

[joesbaby]

ive been reading this thread. quite interesting. dh and his family are atheistes. i probly spelled that wrong. sorry. i am not sure what i am....some days i belive some days i dont. i dont go to church..and i dont read the bible. but..i like the idea;;there is more after death. im sorry i dotn have much to add...and im not really awnsering your questions. but it is very intresting topic...thank you.

[janelle]

I really don't know how one can discuss Atheism without including God. After all that is what the discussion is all about. If there is a God or not.

Did you know that even Mother Theresa had doubts at times? Yes, even saints have doubts so I guess there is hope for the rest of us. She wondered if there was a God out there to go to heaven to when she died. She wondered about all the suffering in the world and if she was doing enough to help. As long as we are weak humans the devil will tempt us to turn away. I think he tempts saints the most. He hates goodness and wants us not to believe in God. He hates God. He tells us that if there was a God wouldn't He stop all this evil and suffering? No, God won't interfere with the free will of men. The devil uses that against God. God loves the devil and that makes the devil hate God even more. God is love but He is perfect justice and without sin so the devil can't stand to be near God and love. The devil made his choice eons ago.

I believe in God and the devil. Good and evil. I can see it everyday.

[curlymae29]

Quote by Janelle
Did you know that even Mother Theresa had doubts at times? Yes, even saints have doubts so I guess there is hope for the rest of us.

Thanks for pointing that out Janelle. I find that really encouraging.

[ckerr4]

sorry, off-topic.

[Willow]

I wasn't trying to be rude when I bumped Tech's original post. I just think that he asked specific questions and although he said anyone was welcome to post I think he was hoping to hear from specific people(atheists) and wanted to know their reasons for believing that way and not so much why others disagree with it. I am guilty myself of posting off topic and that is why I said in one of my previous posts that I would stop posting off topic.

[ckerr4]

I didn't think you were being rude - I just realized that I was responding to off-topic posts that had nothing to do really with atheism, but were affirmations of people's Christianity, which is exactly the opposite of why this post was started. So I edited. :)

[tiznhcet]

quote:
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First off: If you're not an atheist, feel free to come in and read. Do NOT come in to start a fight, lecture, belittle, etc. If you don't agree with what is being said, hit the back button.
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Originally posted by janelle
Since tiznhcet you have gone to many churches you have learned all this. That is why I say something or someone has disappointed or hurt you and your wife. The people in the church have fallen short not God.
But God has given you free will and even He will not force you to believe. It makes Him sad and He wants to have a relationship with you but He will leave it up to you to decide.

Say what you wish to allow yourself to believe this is why we made our choices. No churches ever let us down. We woke up and realized what we feel is the truth.

Please remember why this thread was started as well! I believe this is about Atheist Discussion, not Christians prove us wrong, correct?
:D

[MrUnsocial]

Originally posted by tiznhcet
Say what you wish to allow yourself to believe this is why we made our choices. No churches ever let us down. We woke up and realized what we feel is the truth.

Please remember why this thread was started as well! I believe this is about Atheist Discussion, not Christians prove us wrong, correct?
:D

I agree.

No church "let me down" or "hurt me". I just don't believe it. It's not logical to me, no matter how someone twists it, it doesn't make any sense to me. I came to the conclusion I have, own my own.

I am very happy with my life, so please don't assume I'm miserable because God isn't included in it.