What D@mn Country Is This!!!!!!!!!!

[seawinds]

ORLANDO, Fla. (May 28) - Experts in Islamic law are being called to testify in the lawsuit of a Muslim woman fighting a state order to take off her veil for her driver's license photo.

Sultanna Freeman, 35, says Florida's insistence on photographing her face violates her religious rights.

``I don't unveil ... because it would be disobeying my Lord,'' Freeman testified Tuesday at the start of her non-jury trial.

Assistant Attorney General Jason Vail argued that having an easily identifiable photo on a driver's license is a matter of public safety.

``It's the primary method of identification in Florida and the nation,'' Vail said. ``I don't think there can be any doubt there is a public safety interest.''

Freeman's attorneys argue that state officials didn't care that she wore a veil in her Florida driver's license photo until after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, an allegation the state denies.

``This is about religious liberty. It's about whether this country is going to have religious diversity,'' said Howard Marks, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida.

Both sides planned to call experts in Islamic law at the trial, which continues Wednesday. A copy of the Quran has been entered into evidence.

Freeman, a convert to Islam previously known as Sandra Kellar, wore her veil for the photo on the Florida driver's license she obtained after moving to the state in 2001.

Nine months later, she received a letter from the state warning that it would revoke her license unless she returned for a photo with her face uncovered.

Freeman claims her religious beliefs require her to keep her head and face covered out of modesty and that her faith prohibits her face from being photographed.

05/28/03 07:34 EDT

[newwiccan]

I saw this on Court TV earlier. They said even in Islamic countries, if the woman is allowed to drive, her picture is taken without the veil.

[seawinds]

I`m sorry if I step on someones toe`s..I`m so sick of other people from other countries complaining that we Americans have offended their rights..Last darn time I checked this was the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....what about our rights in our country.....If we step on your toes or offend you rights take you BUTT back to your own COUNTRY...THE END!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

[odyssey]

I read this in the morning paper.


question:
let us say that a person filled with tattoo's covering his entire head and face goes to the DMV does he/she have problems? as in later they can remove that with surgery.

or let us say a person with a very obvious wig and walks in do they have to remove it?

or what about the men with the full beard like Santa, it grows from the ears all the way to the belly does he has to shave it off for the picture?

[seawinds]

At least you Can see their face...You can`t see jack...on this woman...

[newwiccan]

To answer your questions, no. You can still see their faces. With a veil on, all that can be seen is the woman's eyes.

[odyssey]

I wanted to add, unless in the DMV handbook it reads that the entire face of the applicant must be visible and uncovered then she must remove it, otherwise leave it on.


ALSO from my birth country women and even young girls wear a scarf on their head. Even in America they do everywhere not just to church but everyday life to work, shopping everywhere. Even their daughters do at a very young age to show they love God.

[seawinds]

Well if she changed it...She still knew the rules here...Do you know what is happening in this Country..Everything is changing because of people from other countries...We Americans like our Country the way it is...and Like I said before if you don`t like the way we live here...LEAVE...

[odyssey]

parden me seawinds, I will not leave this country.
I have adapted since I was 3 months old now I am 27.
she is expressing her views.
some people have different lifestyles and choices. why should we leave?

[cab244]

This is for everyone's safety. For God's sake, it's a driver's license, it's not like their asking to post it on Playboy. They complain on one hand that we treat them differently then everyone else then they turn around and ask us too. Wtf are we supposed to do. No, I don't think she should leave the country(unless she wants to) but maybe she should just consider taking the bus.

[newwiccan]

Cab's right. It's for EVERYONE's safety and security. If I remember right, Court TV said they'll even let a woman take the picture so no men see her without her veil. What's the problem?

[seawinds]

I will say it one more time..THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!OUR LAWS HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU!!!!!DO NOT COME TO THIS COUNTRY AND TRY TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE...IF WE WANTED TO LIVE BY YOUR LAWS WE WOULD MOVE TO YOU COUNTRY...OTHER WORDS TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY LIVE BY THIS COUNTRIES RULES AND LAWS OR LEAVE.......

[odyssey]

whatever!
but unfortunity from what I found it really doesn't saw on the FL DMV website that your face must be clearly shown.
it does saw a facial shot.
http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/html/dlnew.html

[Bick'sMom]

I have to agree with Odyssey. I was not born in this country, I love living here but just because I came from another country does not mean that I have to give up everything that I believe in. This country offers freedom, the freedom to choose what you want to believe in and what you don't.

I do, however; think that this woman should be made to show her face, it is the law and she must abide by it or else not have the priviledge of driving.

[cab244]

Not me man. NO offense intended but those veils, scarves, and such look AWFULLY HOT, lol. I'll stick to my shorts thank you very much :)


Oh, and I don't believe ANYONE has said that you have to give up what you believe in just show your dang face for your id like everybody else.

[seawinds]

ODYSSEY...GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IS YOUR PICTURE ON YOUR LICENSE???

[odyssey]

``I don't unveil ... because it would be disobeying my Lord,'' Freeman testified Tuesday at the start of her non-jury trial.
this is her religion. PERIOD
it isn't because she wants to loose her Drivers License or ID card.
and what is up with they noticed this 9 months after her license was issued to her. If the DMV had a problem is should have been addressed when the picture and applicant were there to take it.

[odyssey]

I am real very much so real.
I think that you may have an issue with ethnic people.

[ieatalot]

If her 'God' believes it would be disobeying to him to allow this country to be placed into jeopady so more radicals can harm more innocent people then that really isn't Godly like at all.

Seeawinds, I am standing right along you on this one

[newwiccan]

Here's a question. What's to stop other people from getting fake birth certificates etc. and claiming the same thing just so their faces don't show on their license?

[Hillbilly]

Originally posted by seawinds
I will say it one more time..THIS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!OUR LAWS HAVE BEEN HERE LONGER THAN YOU!!!!!DO NOT COME TO THIS COUNTRY AND TRY TO CHANGE OUR WAY OF LIFE...IF WE WANTED TO LIVE BY YOUR LAWS WE WOULD MOVE TO YOU COUNTRY...OTHER WORDS TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY LIVE BY THIS COUNTRIES RULES AND LAWS OR LEAVE....... You go girl! I totally agree.

[seawinds]

Bick`sMom.......I didn`t say that everyone should leave I said that if you don`t like the way things are done here,,,then BYE...this is America...we have our own set of rules and when people move here from other Countries they should realize this....
Our Sons & Daughter and Husbands & Wifes are the ones that give us this right to live like we do....Don`t bring your butt`s into this Country and think you can SUE us because we offended you customs..We have our own Customs that we enjoy...

[cab244]

Somebody in the DMV made a mistake because they(at the time) didn't have any rules regarding this. After 9/11 that changed. They were probably afraid(and justifiably so) of getting sued for religious discrimination. I don't think you would be protesting so loudly if this same woman who you fought so hard to protect her "rights" when on a shooting spree. Or blows up herself and or others. I truly hope their will come a time when we are all safe enough that everyone has the "Freedom" to express their religious views without fear of persecution and terrorism. But the fact is that time has not yet come. If she cannot live by our laws then she needs to go back to her country where what she is doing is accepted as the norm.

[odyssey]

newwiccan to answer your question I assume, background checks people being honest, workers doing their jobs and enforcing the rules.

[cab244]

That doesn't even work with the Mexicans and we can SEE their faces!!!!

Government workers may be honest, but the fact is that they are underpaid and overworked.They cannot possibly be expected to keep up with that. What's to stop women from simply putting on one scarf after another and parading in as another "lost daughter?"

[seawinds]

ODYSSEY....IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU DESCRIBE ETHNIC:::::

[Bick'sMom]

Originally posted by cab244

Oh, and I don't believe ANYONE has said that you have to give up what you believe in just show your dang face for your id like everybody else.

you are right, she didn't say anything about that. :D

I am proud of where I was born and raised, just as proud as I am to say that I am now an American, and I do abide by the laws here and I do think that this woman should be made to as well.

[odyssey]

to go back to her country where women have no rights to be free, to work, to drive a car, to be stoned to death for looking at a man.
I don't think so!
Most all the people who come into America come here to get away from their countries communism, their countries poverty, or whatever else.

[newwiccan]

Unfortunately, not all people are honest. I could walk into the DMV here with all the correct paperwork with someone else's name on it and get an ID with my picture and their info without anyone questioning me. (Not that I would!) It's very easy to lie.

[Syrinx]

One of our fundamental rights as Americans, whether born here or naturalized citizens, is freedom of religion. I think the issue here isn't so much the photograph itself but the fact that were she pulled over, the police officer would have to ask her to remove her veil to identify her- which would go against her beliefs. It seems to me that there should be some alternative, put her fingerprints on her license or something.

[cab244]

Scary , isn't it? That someone could easily do that with your info?

[seawinds]

OBEY THE LAW OF THE LAND....WE ASK NO MORE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES ...COME HERE OBEY THE LAWS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA...OR GO HOME...WHERE YOU HAVE NO D@MN SAY IN YOUR LIFE.....

[ieatalot]

then she along with everyone else better start OBEYING our laws. If it's so tough to live in your native land, that's not my problem. My problem is when you come HERE & think you should be able to do as you dam well please because you now live on our land. You can't tell me that she would have sued over being treated like a piece of dirt in her own country so why try to do it here, we are asking to see her face not her ass.

[newwiccan]

Originally posted by cab244
Scary , isn't it? That someone could easily do that with your info?

Yes, it is. A friend's sister did it to her just so she could get an ID saying she was 21.

[odyssey]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ETHNIC

4 entries found for ETHNIC.
eth·nic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thnk)
adj.

Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.
Being a member of a particular ethnic group, especially belonging to a national group by heritage or culture but residing outside its national boundaries: ethnic Hungarians living in northern Serbia.
Of, relating to, or distinctive of members of such a group: ethnic restaurants; ethnic art.
Relating to a people not Christian or Jewish; heathen.

n.
A member of a particular ethnic group, especially one who maintains the language or customs of the group.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, heathen, from Late Latin ethnicus, from Greek ethnikos, from ethnos, people, nation. See s(w)e- in Indo-European Roots.]
Word History: When it is said in a Middle English text written before 1400 that a part of a temple fell down and “mad a gret distruccione of ethnykis,” one wonders why ethnics were singled out for death. The word ethnic in this context, however, means “gentile,” coming as it does from the Greek adjective ethnikos, meaning “national, foreign, gentile.” The adjective is derived from the noun ethnos, “people, nation, foreign people,” that in the plural phrase ta ethn meant “foreign nations.” In translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, this phrase was used for Hebrew gym, “gentiles” hence the sense of the noun in the Middle English quotation. The noun ethnic in this sense or the related sense “heathen” is not recorded after 1728, although the related adjective sense is still used. But probably under the influence of other words going back to Greek ethnos, such as ethnography and ethnology, the adjective ethnic broadened in meaning in the 19th century. After this broadening the noun sense “a member of a particular ethnic group,” first recorded in 1945, came into existence.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
[Buy it]


ETHNIC

\Eth"nic\n. A heathen; a pagan. [Obs.]

No better reported than impure ethnic and lay dogs. --Milton.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


ETHNIC

\Eth"nic\, Ethnical \Eth"nic*al\, a. [L. ethnicus, Gr. ?, fr. ? nation, ? ? the nations, heathens, gentiles: cf. F. ethnique.] 1. Belonging to races or nations; based on distinctions of race; ethnological.

2. Pertaining to the gentiles, or nations not converted to Christianity; heathen; pagan; -- opposed to Jewish and Christian.


Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


ETHNIC

adj 1: relating to or being a member of an ethnic group; "ethnic frontiers"; "ethnic Chinese in San Francisco" [syn: ethnical] 2: denoting or deriving from or distinctive of the ways of living built up by a group of people; "influenced by ethnic and cultural ties"- J.F.Kennedy; "ethnic food" [syn: cultural]

[Bick'sMom]

Originally posted by seawinds
Bick`sMom.......I didn`t say that everyone should leave I said that if you don`t like the way things are done here,,,then BYE...this is America...we have our own set of rules and when people move here from other Countries they should realize this....
Our Sons & Daughter and Husbands & Wifes are the ones that give us this right to live like we do....Don`t bring your butt`s into this Country and think you can SUE us because we offended you customs..We have our own Customs that we enjoy...

Not once did I say that I didn't agree with your 'customs'. I don't ever recall wanting to sue anyone for anything like that either. If you will take the time to read my post you will see that I agree with you, the woman should be made to show her face.

I also apologized for what I said, I was wrong, you said nothing about anyone beliefs.......

[cab244]

Frankly I've had it. I'm tired of making excuses and allowances for foreigners. If we went to your country and broke the law or didn't obey the rules do you think we would get a break? Honestly? Heck no. Obey our laws or get the heck out. Iraqis are the ones causing trouble over there and right now my husband is risking getting shot or blown up by them and sh*t like that so right now forgive me if I don't give a bloody d*mn about her having to remove her veil for her freakin license!!! I don't hate the people I simply think that they should have to obey our laws like everyone else and if they can't leave. Wasn't that in the oath they pledged if/when they became citizens anyway? That they solemnly swear to obey all laws, etc?

[Bick'sMom]

Well, I am a "foreigner" and I have never once asked for any special treatment. I agree with you that they should obey the laws here, I just don't think you should group everyone into the same group.

[Widgetsx3]

Ok..my 2 cents...then I am out of here. The main purpose of a DL is for identification of the person operating the vehicle. How can you identify someone behind the veil. If she were pulled over, and refused to remove the veil, she could be arrested for not complying w/ a police officer. Part of the privledge (NOT Right) of driving holds responsibilities, not the least of which is complying with the rules and regulations of the DMV. If they require you to show your face for your ID, well then you must do so. Or don't drive. Driving is a PRIVLEDGE....not a right. If it goes against your religion to follow the rules as set forth.....well then why should the rules be bent for you???? I am sick and tired of the MINORITY beliefs to overrun the MAJORITY. Off the soapbox and I am done......

[seawinds]

ODYESSEY...BACK TO ETHNICS...IF YOU WEAR A TOWEL ON YOUR HEAD OR COVER YOUR FACE,,,BECAUSE YOU ARE TRING TO HID SOMETHING WELL I GUESS I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU THEN...WHERE WERE YOU ON 911??? THAT DAY WILL CHANGE YOUR WHOLE WAY OF LOOKING AT EVERYBODY.....

[kelblend]

Wondering if I went to France(or any other country) and said I would wear sunglasses in my license pic if they would deny me a license?? They would have that right. I would understand that.


Also everyone should have to have their pic for identification purposes. Say someone hurt her and left her somewhere or something, how would we know for certain it's her. I think it goes both ways.


Didn't we have this discussion months ago or am I mistaken??

[ieatalot]

well Bick's mom, that is good to hear that you aren't asking for special treatment but too many other foriegners do think they deserve it. They left their country because of fear, poverty etc. yet they want the people in USA to treat them like they are something special. They're not special, they are just another citizen in this country who was asked to obey our laws. No where does it ever say that the leaw of today will still be intact tomorrow, things change so either expect to chance with them or go back from where you feared your life & think how easy it would have been to show your face.

[cab244]

Bick'sMom,


Let's not get so petty as to argue over semantics. Grow up please.It is foreigners coming here(granted not all of them) whining about special treatment. When was the last time there was an American who whined about receiving special treatment from another country? Didn't they allow that kid from theUS to be canned for vandalizing cars(I can't remember what country that was)?

[kelblend]

Hey some would say it's against their religion to not pray before meals in school, guess what that was taken away and supposed to be abided by. Might be weak argument but close.

[cab244]

That's why they have "moment of silence". To pray or not to pray does not effect anyone's safety. Unless of course you do it with your eyes closed while driving, lol.