OK, really, how does it hurt anyone if women can marry women or men can marry men? [Archive] - Big Big Forums

denisemm

10-31-2002, 12:41 AM

Originally posted by Lasher
Actually most of us don't want the traditonal marriage.
Most homosexuals do not want to be joined in "holy wedlock", they instead want a commitment ceremony, which will give them the same rights as a marriage, but has nothing to do with anyone's religion.
They don't want to change anyone's religious beliefs, they want to publically acknowledge their love for one another, and share that with their friends and family, and then be granted the legal rights other married couples have.

I totally get what you are saying here, and my thought is... isn't that what marriage is? We did not have a religious ceremony, because neither one of us is religious. We wanted to publicly acknowledge our love for each other, and for his insurance to cover me, because I was pregnant. We just went by ourselves, no family or friends or anyone else at all, but they know we got married. The only difference that being married made in our relationship is that now I can be on his insurance, and talk to his creditors for him (he's really bad at taking care of money issues, shhh, dont tell him I aid that). So, we got hitched. Don't get me wrong, I love him, and we had every intention of spending the rest of our lives together, and we already lived together, we obviously already had sex. But we have the kind of relationship/marriage that probably few people understand. And I don't really care if anyone understadns or not, we know we love each other, we know we are comitted to each other and our son, and we know that there is NOTHING that will ever come between that. So, if someone marries a person of the same sex, that will have no affect (effect??) on my marriage at all.

And missymommy, I totally agree! If the reason its not legal is because of people's beliefs is God and the bible, then it shoud not be, because (and here we go back to this again) of seperation of church & state. I thought that was the reason, but because that so obviously violates the seperation of church & state, I though there must be something else, which is why I asked this question.

Sadly, preliminary polls show that 60+% of voters support question 2. I will certainly be voting no on it. I feel sorry for people who are so narrow minded that they can't let others marry who they love. I just don't see why it threatens them so!

I read an article, (good sattire) somewhere that was "The homosexual agenda" that was hilarious. I wish that people whoare so against and or threatened (somehow) by homosexuality could read it, so they can see how absolutely ridiculous they are being.

Ah well. Any more insight is appreciated. And I hope all this rambling made sense!

Kyla Kym

10-31-2002, 03:39 AM

Syrinx

10-31-2002, 05:48 AM

I see absolutely no problem with it- just from the whole 'equal treatment under the law' perspective. My husband and I got married in a civil ceremony because we wanted to be married but we didn't want a religious ceremony. I think that everyone should have the right to make that choice if that's what they want.

I think individual churches can decide however they want, I have heard of some Protestant churches that will perform marriages for gay couples, that aren't legally binding but are binding to them in a religious sense.

katwoman3

10-31-2002, 06:11 AM

Just for the record, why does everyone think we need to accept being gay as ok? Allot of people have been brought up learning from the Bible that it's God's law that we shouldn't be gay. So that would make the ones of us that think it's wrong hypocrites if we went with the flow on it. I for one love all people. And the way I figure it, they know if they are doing right or wrong. That is their choice to make. But please don't force me to think I have to believe it's ok before I can like that person. I still like gay people long as they are good to me. But I won't never think what they are doing is right

No one is asking for acceptance. It is fine to believe whatever you want to believe, but the beliefs of one should not infringe on the rights of someone else regardless their lifestyle.
And I am not coming down on anyone for what was said. I just believe anyone who is not gay, should not dictate what someone who is gay should do. If they want to marry, fine, who is it hurting?

sdmay3

10-31-2002, 07:11 AM

I see on the news all the time people wanting plaques and things taken off of government buildings because there is supposed to be separation of church and state. So how do the courts decide whether marrying a person of the same sex is morally or biblically wrong? To me that is mixing religion with government.

I think that when 2 people are committed to each other regardless of their sex they should be allowed to marry. It is not fair that they cannot reap the benefits of a married couple such as insurance, Social security, etc. I used to babysit for a couple and they were very commited to each other. They are raising 2 children together. The one woman has NO rights whatsoever to these children. She cannot put them on her insurance. Although she is raising and supporting these kids if she were to pass away the kids would not get any survivirs benefits. That is NOT fair to the kids.

As far as my thoughts on whether it is right or wrong to be gay. I know what the bible says about this. But I also know that most people would not CHOOSE this lifestyle knowing the pressures that go along with it. Would anyone choose to be physically handicaped or mentally challenged? NO. But you have to accept the way you are and learn how to live with it. I am sure there are many gay people that ar in "normal" relationships to please other people. But I bet inside they are miserable!!

I also think that when some people hear the term "gay" the only thing they think of is two people of the same sex having sex. That is not all there is to it. The same way I feel about my husband and family these people feel about their significant other. They go through the same ups and downs as you or I. Only they have the added pressure of worrying about everyone else thinks about their relationship.

Being gay is not unnatural. Not being able to love who you want to is unnatural!

Thes are just my thoughts. I truly have not meant to offend anyone!!!!!

Nikkole

10-31-2002, 07:29 AM

Where my husband works they are covering the spouse of a gay male/female by allowing them to recieve there spouse health insurance life etc and if they have children.

MommyG3

10-31-2002, 07:37 AM

I don't know what to say.

mannerswife

10-31-2002, 08:00 AM

I don't think we have a right to say who should love who and so on. I don't see a problem with gay people getting married.

Njean31

10-31-2002, 08:42 AM

the Bible may have been written by men, but it was under God's control, he guided every word written. i am sorry but the Bible clearly states homosexuality is wrong or better yet an abomination, now if your not a religious person then you are not going to care what the bible says, so there is no arguement there. But what about the laws of nature? What if everyone was homosexual, the human race would die out.

Also, i work in a large county jail as a RN, and out of 400 inmates on any given day, there are probably 20-30 homosexual men. Out of those 20-30, atleat half have AIDS, AND are still engaging in sexual acts. This is very sad to me. I have taken care of homosexual folks dying with AIDS and it is not pretty, I have wiped their faces tenderly, I am talking young men in their 20's, and looked in their eyes as they lie there dying, afraid to ask if they regret choosing this lifestyle that has taken thier lives, but not having to. Then I have gone from genuine care/concern to mad that this is going on. AND I also know that not only homosexual people get Aids, but it is more prevalent in that population.

I got off the subject of what would it hurt if they married, but I guess you can tell from my above post what I think.

Please don't bash me, I am only expresses MY opinion.

joaimee

10-31-2002, 08:48 AM

I really don't have a problem with gay marriages at all. If they function as a marriage, are committed to each other and raising a family together, why not give them the same rights? I just believe that it is not my job to judge how people choose to live their lives. I know that I don't like people to judge the way I live mine.

2chevys

10-31-2002, 08:51 AM

I totally agree that gay partners should be given the same LEGAL rights. The problem I have is when gay partners want to have a religious ceremonial marriage. The gay lifestyle is not sanctioned by the church, in fact it is forbidden. This doesn't mean we should like gay people any less ( I have many gay friends), or that they shouldn't enjoy the benefits of medical coverage, retirement/SSI, inheritances. Lasher, I think you're right on!

Kelsey1224

10-31-2002, 09:28 AM

I'm not going to comment on my personal views on this subject...

However, an interesting tidbit of information...as many of you know, I work for Disney. Disney has provided benefits for the partners of gay employees for almost 10 years. It was the first large company to offer health insurance and pretty much set the standard which other companies now follow. However this benefit is only offered if it is a same/sex relationships.

So...if you are a man and woman living together, an employee can NOT insure his/her domestic partner. Only homosexual relationships have this benefit.

I thought this was kind of strange at first until the reasoning was explained to me.

With heterosexual relationships...the relationship can be "legitimatized" through marriage. With homosexual couples, it can not.

Jaidness

10-31-2002, 09:39 AM

how does it hurt anyone? prolly hurts their head from trying to squeeze the info into their narrow minds .

adair

10-31-2002, 09:50 AM

being in northen NV, I hear a lot of the ranchers, etc. talking about how much same sex marriages will be costing us because of the medical costs of Aids, etc. It really does not matter if that is their concern because the taxpayers will be supporting the costs anyhow.

I see no reason as to why a person cannot marry their loved one.

Lasher

10-31-2002, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Njean31
the Bible may have been written by men, but it was under God's control, he guided every word written. i am sorry but the Bible clearly states homosexuality is wrong or better yet an abomination, now if your not a religious person then you are not going to care what the bible says, so there is no arguement there. But what about the laws of nature? What if everyone was homosexual, the human race would die out.

Also, i work in a large county jail as a RN, and out of 400 inmates on any given day, there are probably 20-30 homosexual men. Out of those 20-30, atleat half have AIDS, AND are still engaging in sexual acts. This is very sad to me. I have taken care of homosexual folks dying with AIDS and it is not pretty, I have wiped their faces tenderly, I am talking young men in their 20's, and looked in their eyes as they lie there dying, afraid to ask if they regret choosing this lifestyle that has taken thier lives, but not having to. Then I have gone from genuine care/concern to mad that this is going on. AND I also know that not only homosexual people get Aids, but it is more prevalent in that population.

I got off the subject of what would it hurt if they married, but I guess you can tell from my above post what I think.

Please don't bash me, I am only expresses MY opinion.

They high AIDS population in jails has to do with promiscuous sexual practices, and lack of use of condoms.

Over 70% of HIV infections worldwide occur through sex between men and women, and a further 10% through sex between men. Another 5% or so take place among people who inject drugs, four-fifths of whom are men.
http://www.unaids.org/wac/2000/index.html

It is not a "gay" disease.

Lasher

10-31-2002, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Kyla Kym

Well that makes more since than anything else.

Just for the record, why does everyone think we need to accept being gay as ok? Allot of people have been brought up learning from the Bible that it's God's law that we shouldn't be gay. So that would make the ones of us that think it's wrong hypocrites if we went with the flow on it. I for one love all people. And the way I figure it, they know if they are doing right or wrong. That is their choice to make. But please don't force me to think I have to believe it's ok before I can like that person. I still like gay people long as they are good to me. But I won't never think what they are doing is right.

Guess what I'm trying to say is it is ok to still like and respect other people without having to believe just like they do.

I don't want to change anyone's beliefs as previously stated, but the religious beliefs of one sec of the population have absolutely nothing to do with law.

chort1313

10-31-2002, 10:03 AM

I think you should marry who ya want.. They should get the same benefits..

I wish I could get my bf's health benefits as they are WAY cheaper than mine----without marrying him. I don't want to get married yet!!!
So...if you are a man and woman living together, an employee can NOT insure his/her domestic partner. Only homosexual relationships have this benefit.

Man, so if I got a sex change.. and I lived with my bf still .. adn worked for Disney this would work!!! :)

Widgetsx3

10-31-2002, 10:33 AM

Denise: Unfortunately, with the rather large population of Mormon's in Vegas (second only to Utah) this will pass. (Nothing against Mormon's.....some of my best friends are, but they do hold alot of commission seats and other political offices.) No-one should be able to say who you can/cannot commit your life to. (I will separate minors though) If you are over 18, love someone, and are commited to that person....who's business is it anyways???? Besides...I am sure that most of the people who are sponsoring this bill wouldn't want you to know what THEY do behind closed doors.....I'm sure!

Sadly, there are too many people out there who want to poke their nose into the private lives of others....Lord forbid you do it to them though.

cavemtmomma

10-31-2002, 11:31 AM

The reason government is involved in marriage is that it has a vested interest to encourage the building of families. Families are the foundation of any society. When a union that cannot biologically produce children is given parity with a union that can't it takes away the incentive to build a family. This incentive has been already drastically eroded in our nation by things like no-fault divorce and wide spread acceptance of having children out of wedlock. if same sex marriage becomes the norm yet another underpinning of the traditional family will fall away. Look back in history at all the societies that fell because they moved farther and farther away from the traditional family model.
My personal opinion is that I don't care what 2 consenting adults do behind closed doors. I don't have to like it, it's not my life. I don't want to hear about it, no matter if you're homosexual OR heterosexual. If a heterosexual teacher is in anyway promotiong sexuality to my child I want them gone just as I would if a homosexual teacher were doing the same thing.
The G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob says that homosexuality is wrong. I follow Him. If you don't like what He says you're free to ignore Him or take it up with Him. While I have personal, spiritual reasons to be against same sex marriage, we don't live in a theocracy. We do live in a society and for it's negative affects on society I'm against it.
Now do I have to add the old "Some of my best friends are homosexuals" stuff to be entitled to my opinion?:D

Kelsey1224

10-31-2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by chort1313
Man, so if I got a sex change.. and I lived with my bf still .. adn worked for Disney this would work!!! :)

Yes it would...the situation has come up...although the couple were married first. They are now a same-sex couple...

By the way...it is called "gender reassignment" and Disney does pay for it. However, they don't pay for lasik eye surgery...go figure...lol.

BeesKnees

10-31-2002, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by cavemtmomma
Look back in history at all the societies that fell because they moved farther and farther away from the traditional family model.

Do you have examples, preferably those that don't come from the Bible (i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah) Has it ever been proven that all of societies ills are the product of the breakdown of traditional families? Or is it just circumsatncial evidence?
I find blanket statements that attempt to firmly lay the blame on certain groups of people very offensive. I could easily say it is bigotry, close-mindedness, ignorance….etc…that is to blame for the woes of the world. But I would have no more valid proof to offer than you do.
Do correct me if I am wrong, I would just like to see examples of the societies that have failed throughout tim, due to non-traditional families.

flute

10-31-2002, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224
However, an interesting tidbit of information...as many of you know, I work for Disney. Disney has provided benefits for the partners of gay employees for almost 10 years.

now i hate disney but I commend them on this matter! :):)

Njean31

10-31-2002, 12:54 PM

statistics vary from survery to survey but according to what the medical profession goes by which is the CDC (Centers for Disease Control), more than 70% of new cases of AIDS each year is attributed to to men, and of those 70%,60% were from homosexuals. That makes it more prevalant for homosexual men.

this prolly won't work but here you go anyway
http://www.thebody.com/niaid/stats.html

schsa

10-31-2002, 01:50 PM

HIV and AIDs are not the same thing. People who are HIV may not ever develop AIDs and people who are HIV positive have a life span of up to 20 years after they are diagnosed. And this has nothing to do with same sex partnerships.

As for me, if two people want to be legally joined, go ahead. Legally is the important word here. It is essential that we understand that as much as two people may love each other there are other considerations when two households become one. First of all, what do we do about joint property when a couple decides to disolve their partnership? Cars? Houses? Furniture? What if one partner dies? What happens to the living partner? Is that person going to be thrown out of their home because the deceased's family comes in and takes over everything? Will there be no insurance money paid to the living partner? And what about medical care? Or any of the other things that the rest of us take for granted?

I know that there are moral reasons why people object to same sex marriages. I also know that there are reasons why people of the opposite sex should never marry. But we let them keep marrying and making mistakes. I don't think that you look at a same sex union as one of procreation as much as it is to protect both partners if something terrible happens.

cavemtmomma

10-31-2002, 02:00 PM

BeeKnees, Rome and Greece are the two that come most easily to mind. Rome in particular made the family secondary to the state. Sending soldiers off for years at time, making divorce a political stepping stone by encouraging political alliance rather than family ties. Not to mention developing a widespread welfare state. Greece fell into the pit of hedonism. All was forsaken for the pusuit of physical pleasure, be it eating, drinking, sex or even knowledge. Fulfilling self became the most important pursuit. As anyone knows in any relationship, when something is more important than your mate the relationship fails. Those that do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.I would also like for you to point out to me where I laid the blame on any one certain group. Or is no fault divorce also a homosexual conspiracy?

BeesKnees

10-31-2002, 02:21 PM

Perhaps I mistook your statement regarding “non-traditional” families and their values as a statement against homosexuality, and interpreted it as you thought they were a bane to society. That is my mistake.
However, sarcasm and irony ( no-fault divorce, or must I point out the homosexual friends that I have, comments that you made) does little to support your arguments.
I don’t personally subscribe to the notion that Rome fell specifically for your stated reasons, and I know little about Greece. Regardless, you are citing ancient empires and nothing remotely current that most of us would relate to or feel personally.
That said, I do agree with your comment that when something becomes more important than your relationship, the relationship is destined to fail. But I do not believe you have to be heterosexual to have those values.
There are things that all of us can learn and be enlightened about and I appreciate your civil response to my question.

denisemm

10-31-2002, 02:35 PM

Wow, so much stuff since I was last here.

Originally posted by Njean31
the Bible may have been written by men, but it was under God's control, he guided every word written. i am sorry but the Bible clearly states homosexuality is wrong or better yet an abomination, now if your not a religious person then you are not going to care what the bible says, so there is no arguement there. But what about the laws of nature? What if everyone was homosexual, the human race would die out.

SO, the reason for the law is, in fact, because of the bible, and therefore does, in fact, violate the seperation of church and state. Hmmm... That makes it unconstitutional, I believe.

Originally posted by Kyla Kym
Just for the record, why does everyone think we need to accept being gay as ok? Allot of people have been brought up learning from the Bible that it's God's law that we shouldn't be gay. So that would make the ones of us that think it's wrong hypocrites if we went with the flow on it. I for one love all people. And the way I figure it, they know if they are doing right or wrong. That is their choice to make. But please don't force me to think I have to believe it's ok before I can like that person. I still like gay people long as they are good to me. But I won't ever think what they are doing is right.

Guess what I'm trying to say is it is ok to still like and respect other people without having to believe just like they do.

I absolutely don't think anyone should have to believe the same as I do. But again, this goes back to gay marriage not being legal because it goes against what the bible says, which clearly makes it a violation of seperation of church & state, which we are supposed to be protected from.

Thanks everyone, for proving my point.

denisemm

10-31-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by cavemtmomma
The reason government is involved in marriage is that it has a vested interest to encourage the building of families. Families are the foundation of any society. When a union that cannot biologically produce children is given parity with a union that can't it takes away the incentive to build a family. This incentive has been already drastically eroded in our nation by things like no-fault divorce and wide spread acceptance of having children out of wedlock. if same sex marriage becomes the norm yet another underpinning of the traditional family will fall away...

The reasons I disagree with this:
1. If same sex marriages were to become legal, there would not be a sudden influx of people who decide not to have children. So there would still be families, probably more families because some gay couples would be more able to "get" (for lack of a better word) or have children.
2. I'd be willing to bet that there are as many gay couples who have children as there are straight couples who never had or want to have children (I'd be one of those if not for an accident), so really it all works out
3. What defines "traditional family" for you? A mother & father & kid(s)? How many of these "traditional families" fall apart because one of the parents is denying their true self? Wouldn't a family where both of the parents are true to themsleves be better than one that falls apart because they aren't? ANd the "traditional family" being defined as a mother & a father is a rather narrow-minded view in today's society, I think.

Ok, I had some other points, but I'm rather distracted, so I'll leave it at this.

Njean31

10-31-2002, 02:55 PM

i know HIV and Aids are not the same thing, pardon me. Too me AIDS and HIV are interchangeable, a death sentence eventually. The way you put it above it sounds like it's not so bad to get HIV, hey you may never get AIDS and you can live up to 20 more years. Try telling that to the 18 year old boy who just has been diagnosed with HIV. And it does have everything to do with same-sex partnerships, because it is normalizing it. And, as far as the law is what it is because of the Bible, I don't know about that, I just know that this democracy we live in makes the laws as they are by people voting.

ckerr4

10-31-2002, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Njean31
And it does have everything to do with same-sex partnerships, because it is normalizing it.

*normalizing what? Gay relationships? To the people in them, I daresay they are normal. But legalizing gay relationships will not necessarily have any effect on the rate of AIDS or HIV acquisition. And, as was already pointed out, AIDS does not have everything to do with same-sex partnerships, since there are many many people who get AIDS from other means.

BeesKnees

10-31-2002, 03:07 PM

Njean31---------

As an RN in a jail system, surely you realize that those gay men with that you speak of may not have been inherently gay, but are a product of their environment, if you will. By the same token, a lot of these “gay” men in prison are there for drug charges, where it is easy enough to conceive that they got HIV from IV drug use. I think your "statistics" in that sense are skewed.
Also, citing CDC as your source for your statistics is only showing a very minute picture of the overall AIDS crisis in the world. What is it, something like one in four Africans ( that would be continental Africans, any nation over there-pick one) has HIV, the vast majority women and children.
Or were we only talking America. I suppose that is it, since we were discussing our government.
I just wanted to point out that the AIDS crisis is not a fair argument for or against same sex marriages, as you are only looking at a microscopic portion of the problem, IMHO>

cavemtmomma

10-31-2002, 03:19 PM

I would say that more "traditional" families fall apart because one or the other spouse isn't denying themselve ENOUGH! In many cases families fall apart because the members fail to commit to the family. One feels they don't have enough freedom, or another feels they need "More space" Another is tired of responsibility.
I believe that a mother and a father working together for the best of their family is the strongest safest place for a child to grow up. There they can see healthy female/male relationships modeled and learn how to interact with each sex in an appropriate way. I would be much less of a person if I hadn't learned lessons from my father as well as my mother. This doesn't mean that I think that same sex partners don't love their children or that single parents don't work hard to do whats best. BUT the ideal is still the comitted caring two parent family. And in theory (and don't get me started here! LOL!) the government should work for the best of society. Yes I know that there are heterosexuals that are terrible parents. Yes I know that birth parents can abuse and even kill with the best of them. But that again goes back to our societies lack of committment to the traditional family. We tolerate people having children with no means to support them. We allow men and women to abandon their children and not pay support. We let children grow up to fast and encourage them to make decisions that they are not emotionally equipped to handle.
Sorry to rant. I don't believe that if same sex marriages become legal that it means the end of our society. I DO think it will be one more burned bridge in the already overwhelming tide of "self above all" that is destroying our nation.

Lasher

10-31-2002, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by cavemtmomma
I would say that more "traditional" families fall apart because one or the other spouse isn't denying themselve ENOUGH! In many cases families fall apart because the members fail to commit to the family. One feels they don't have enough freedom, or another feels they need "More space" Another is tired of responsibility.
I believe that a mother and a father working together for the best of their family is the strongest safest place for a child to grow up. There they can see healthy female/male relationships modeled and learn how to interact with each sex in an appropriate way. I would be much less of a person if I hadn't learned lessons from my father as well as my mother. This doesn't mean that I think that same sex partners don't love their children or that single parents don't work hard to do whats best. BUT the ideal is still the comitted caring two parent family. And in theory (and don't get me started here! LOL!) the government should work for the best of society. Yes I know that there are heterosexuals that are terrible parents. Yes I know that birth parents can abuse and even kill with the best of them. But that again goes back to our societies lack of committment to the traditional family. We tolerate people having children with no means to support them. We allow men and women to abandon their children and not pay support. We let children grow up to fast and encourage them to make decisions that they are not emotionally equipped to handle.
Sorry to rant. I don't believe that if same sex marriages become legal that it means the end of our society. I DO think it will be one more burned bridge in the already overwhelming tide of "self above all" that is destroying our nation.

So you are more worried about the parenting side of the issue?

Florida's 1977 law is the only law in the nation that bans gays and lesbians from adopting children

Currently, only six states around the country (Arkansas, Idaho, Indiana, Oklahoma, Texas and Utah) are considering or have recently considered bans on gay and lesbian foster care and/or adoption. parents.

Like other adults in this country, the majority of lesbians and gay men are in stable committed relationships. Of course some of these relationships have problems, as do some heterosexual relationships. The adoption and foster care screening process is very rigorous, including extensive home visits and interviews of prospective parents. It is designed to screen out those individuals who are not qualified to adopt or be foster parents, for whatever reason. All of the evidence shows that lesbians and gay men can and do make good parents. The American Psychological Association, in a recent report reviewing the research (http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/), observed that "not a single study has found children of gay or lesbian parents to be disadvantaged in any significant respect relative to children of heterosexual parents," and concluded that "home environments provided by gay and lesbian parents are as likely as those provided by heterosexual parents to support and enable children's psychosocial growth." That is why the Child Welfare League of America, the nation's oldest children's advocacy organization, and the North American Council on Adoptable Children say that gays and lesbians seeking to adopt should be evaluated just like other adoptive applicants.
Children without homes do not have the option of choosing between a married mother and father or some other type of parent(s). These children have neither a mother nor a father, married or unmarried. There simply are not enough married mothers and fathers who are interested in adoption and foster care. Our adoption and foster care policies must deal with reality, or these children will never have stable and loving homes.
Right now there is a critical shortage of adoptive and foster parents in the United States. As a result, many children have no permanent homes, while others are forced to survive in an endless series of substandard foster homes. It is estimated that there are 500,000 children in foster care nationally, and 100,000 need to be adopted. But last year there were qualified adoptive parents available for only 20,000 of these children. Many of these children have historically been viewed as "unadoptable" because they are not healthy white infants. Instead, they are often minority children and/or adolescents, many with significant health problems. There is much evidence documenting the serious damage suffered by children without permanent homes who are placed in substandard foster homes. Children frequently become victims of the "foster care shuffle," in which they are moved from temporary home to temporary home. A child stuck in permanent foster care can live in 20 or more homes by the time she reaches 18. It is not surprising, therefore, that long-term foster care is associated with increased emotional problems, delinquency, substance abuse and academic problems.
There is no connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. All of the legitimate scientific evidence shows that. Sexual orientation, whether heterosexual or homosexual, is an adult sexual attraction to others. Pedophilia, on the other hand, is an adult sexual attraction to children. Ninety percent of child abuse is committed by heterosexual men. In one study of 269 cases of child sexual abuse, only two offenders were gay or lesbian. Of the cases studied involving molestation of a boy by a man, 74 percent of the men were or had been in a heterosexual relationship with the boy's mother or another female relative. The study concluded that "a child's risk of being molested by his or her relative's heterosexual partner is over 100 times greater than by someone who might be identifiable as being homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual.

cavemtmomma

10-31-2002, 05:32 PM

Any child in foster care should go to the safest, most immediately available home. But I still feel that these kids are ending up in the system due to the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family. My daughter's birth mother is heterosexual. My foster son's mom is gay. Neither woman has any business having children because neither can take care of themselve, let alone provide a safe caring atmosphere for a child.

queenofquitealot

10-31-2002, 06:18 PM

Oh God Im getting outta here!!!!
**The queen runs as fast as she can and is very scared to look back** hehe!!!
Love to all!!!!!
And HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!!!!:)

kelsie126

10-31-2002, 06:23 PM

Also, i work in a large county jail as a RN, and out of 400 inmates on any given day, there are probably 20-30 homosexual men. Out of those 20-30, atleat half have AIDS, AND are still engaging in sexual acts. This is very sad to me. I have taken care of homosexual folks dying with AIDS and it is not pretty, I have wiped their faces tenderly, I am talking young men in their 20's, and looked in their eyes as they lie there dying, afraid to ask if they regret choosing this lifestyle that has taken thier lives, but not having to. Then I have gone from genuine care/concern to mad that this is going on. AND I also know that not only homosexual people get Aids, but it is more prevalent in that population.

If this is true then
So isnt this more the reason to allow gay marriages, promote monogomous relationships..notice I said IF!! Why do people assume that gay people are so much more promiscuos than heterosexual people?

And no it is no more prevalent in gay people than straight. My friends father died of Aids and so did her stepbrother.

denisemm

10-31-2002, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by cavemtmomma
But I still feel that these kids are ending up in the system due to the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family.

The breakdown of the "traditional family" is not caused by, and has absolutely nothing to do with, same sex marriage. In fact, allowing same sex marriage will create more stable, loving, happy families.

originally by cavemtmomma
I would say that more "traditional" families fall apart because one or the other spouse isn't denying themselve ENOUGH!

This isn't exactly what I meant. If we were to live in a world where everyone could only marry & have children with someone of the opposite sex, then we come to the possibility (and I know in some cases it is a reality) of someone who is homosexual denying who they are so that they can be a part of that "traditional family". Of course, that marriage, therefore family, will eventually fall apart. And its not because someone wasn't denying themsleves enough, its because they did it in the first place. ANd if same sex marriage was accepted, they would never have been stuck in that situation, they could have married who they wanted and had a family through means of adoption or insemination, and those children woudl ahve a stable, loving home.

And just to clarify, people don't choose to be gay. THey don't decide one day that they would rather date someone of the same sex. They (we) are born feeling the way we do. So, just as you have always known that you like men, lesbian women have always known that they like women. A lot of people hide it or deny it for along time, because of societal pressure, because of their parents beliefs, etc., its doesn't mean they aren't, it just means they are denying their true self. And when you see a gay or lesbian person who claims that they have been "reformed", they have merely decided to deny their true self. Just wanted to clear that up.

I understand what you are saying about families falling apart because of one spouse or the other not denying themself enough, I'm just saying that isn't what I meant. And if someone is the type of person that they will feel they have to deny themself of something in order to be in a marriage, then they should not get married, and are not someone you should marry. Marriage isn't about that, its about loving and sharing your life with someone.

moocher

10-31-2002, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Lasher

They high AIDS population in jails has to do with promiscuous sexual practices, and lack of use of condoms.

Over 70% of HIV infections worldwide occur through sex between men and women, and a further 10% through sex between men. Another 5% or so take place among people who inject drugs, four-fifths of whom are men.
http://www.unaids.org/wac/2000/index.html

It is not a "gay" disease.

Thank you Lasher!! I was about to jump on that one!! It makes me crazy when people call it a gay disease!

I think it's none of anyone's business who you marry-same sex or not-you are the only one that has to live with that person-if other people don't like-DON'T LOOK!!

I am a christian and have a message for all those that call on the Bible to back them up-the Bible also says:

"Judge not lest ye be judged" and you will be answering to someone with all knowledge!

"A sin is a sin is a sin" so, you judging anyone else for what you consider to be a sin-watch it-that means you're judging-and that's a sin!! And all sins are equal in God's eye (except blasphemy) and sees you all!

Tasha405

10-31-2002, 07:14 PM

I see nothing wrong with same sex marriages and I think they should have the same rights and respect as a man/woman marriage. Who are we to put judgement on anyone? How is it right for us to tell people who they can and can't love? I will never understand that. If you don't like to see 2 people of the same sex together, turn your head. If you don't like to talk about it, then don't. Two people who love each other should be able to show their love and affection without a bunch of BS.

I don't care if you are gay, bi, straight, pink, purple, red or yellow, I have nothing but love for ya! ;)

Tasha405

10-31-2002, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by moocher

Thank you Lasher!! I was about to jump on that one!! It makes me crazy when people call it a gay disease!

I think it's none of anyone's business who you marry-same sex or not-you are the only one that has to live with that person-if other people don't like-DON'T LOOK!!

I am a christian and have a message for all those that call on the Bible to back them up-the Bible also says:

"Judge not lest ye be judged" and you will be answering to someone with all knowledge!

"A sin is a sin is a sin" so, you judging anyone else for what you consider to be a sin-watch it-that means you're judging-and that's a sin!! And all sins are equal in God's eye (except blasphemy) and sees you all! Oh! Go moocher! :)

~MK~

10-31-2002, 08:11 PM

I'm with the minority...

I do not condone homosexual behaviors. If you don't like it, remember that I'm entitled to my own opinion too.

menanamama

10-31-2002, 08:30 PM

i don't agree with it...the option 2 or what ever it is
i does not hurt me and just because you-me-or anyone else is bothered by it makes no matter...some ppl find the idea of marrying one person bothersome...there are religions that belive a man should marry more than one woman...i don't agree with that but that is not my life so it does not affect me persay...
bottom line...if it isn't you doing it then where is the problem

i think it comes from being close minded...pretty sure that is the deal.

if you have kids...gay, straight, in between...long as they are loved and well cared for they turn out fine...i know kids from traditional families that are farked up! i know kids form gay families that are farked up...but that is one out of dozens who are well adjusted...what matters is how the family unit interacts not the sex of who they interact with. i do agree that promiscuity and having wild parties will cause problems...but gay or not that can happen...

menanamama

10-31-2002, 08:31 PM

this is a copy of an email i sent to a friend earlier about a documentary i saw last night

remember the black plague...not literaly but i am sure you know what it was and such. well this one town got bombarded but over half survived or never got it. they found out why after years of study and genetic maping and other what nots...a genetic deformation...delta 32 it is called. if you have two of the mutation...one from mom and one from dad...you never got sick...if you only had one you got sick but more often than not survived. anywho...the plague attacks the body the SAME way aids does...they have done studis with ppl with the double mutation...one guys blood was bombarded with 3000 times the amount required to contract the virus....and no reaction was found....they tested his blood (in a petrie dish of course) tons of times...it was blocked buy the delta 32 gene mutation...there is no "gate" or "portal" for it to enter just as it was with the plague. unfortunatly having only one mutated gene just delays the onset. but this is an optimistic finding don't you think....saw a show on wmht last night about the plague...and i happen to find that sort of thing fascinating...finding out how diseases work and how ppl survive...genetics in general because it is so mathematical and logical i guess...always been a mathematical type of person...anywho about half way through the show it gets into the coralation between the plague and hiv-aids....they work the same way...that was why they wanted to study the plague survivors in the first place and discovered after several years this wonderful tid bit of news. i tell you science is the greatest accomplishment man has made and will continue to make...

moocher

10-31-2002, 08:37 PM

That was interesting-thanks h2223m!

Njean31

10-31-2002, 08:55 PM

just wanted to respond real quick to some of the posts regarding my earlier posts. first, the jail system is different from the prison population, people don't stay along time in jail, so when they come in most of the time they are what they are. In prison, alot of straight people do "turn" gay due to the circumstance (no women) or vise versa for women (no men). And yes i'll agree that most of these type of people in the system are promiscous and don't use condoms.

I never said it was a "gay disease", just that HIV/Aids is more prevalent in homosexual population in THIS country (nevermind Africa where so many unfortunate people get it from every means possible). I am only citing CDC statistics here, not JMHO.

I do know that this subject is very touchy, and I must leave it alone. I don't want to offend people, or judge and if it seems I have, i am sorry. Was only stating facts and my opinion.

And true about the sin thing, from what i was taught, one sin is just as bad as the next, as is the verse about he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Goodnight and Peace!!!

Lasher

10-31-2002, 08:55 PM

Originally posted by chelle33
I could care less what other do - if they want
to marry the same sex that is they're own business

BUT God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve..

I just had this dicussion at another forum.

The bible was rewritten by King James, hence the King James version of the bible.

Her arguement was King James was inspired by God to rewrite the bible.

My response:

So does this mean

a. Man cannot go against God's wishes and therefore does not have free will?

b. It is possible King James rewrote the bible to suit his views, and it is not what God intended it to be.

There are over 5000 members at that board and none can offer up an answer.

Lasher

10-31-2002, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by cavemtmomma
Any child in foster care should go to the safest, most immediately available home. But I still feel that these kids are ending up in the system due to the breakdown of the traditional nuclear family. My daughter's birth mother is heterosexual. My foster son's mom is gay. Neither woman has any business having children because neither can take care of themselve, let alone provide a safe caring atmosphere for a child.

And the families available are homosexual couples, there are not straight families waiting in line to adopt these kids. If there were they would not be in foster care.They only show up to protest homosexuals adopting them, but they have no desire to offer them a home, thus these kids are forced to stay in the system when they could be in a loving home.

Willow

10-31-2002, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by Machande_Kennels
I'm with the minority...

I do not condone homosexual behaviors. If you don't like it, remember that I'm entitled to my own opinion too.

Yeah what she said.

kimp67

10-31-2002, 09:44 PM

To make this short, sweet & to the point:
I think that in this "free" country of our's, anyone of legal age that wants to "legally" commit to another, should be able to do so.

JMHO

stresseater

10-31-2002, 11:16 PM

Nope, I don't agree with it either.(runs before she says more and becomes closeminded):eek:

kelblend

10-31-2002, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by Lasher

I just had this dicussion at another forum.

The bible was rewritten by King James, hence the King James version of the bible.

Her arguement was King James was inspired by God to rewrite the bible.

My response:

So does this mean

a. Man cannot go against God's wishes and therefore does not have free will?

b. It is possible King James rewrote the bible to suit his views, and it is not what God intended it to be.

There are over 5000 members at that board and none can offer up an answer.

A.--okay my understanding is this: Man can go against God's wishes if he so chooses. You know God could have said no free will and everyone come to me and we would have to. However, I think that by giving free will, we make the choice to go to him because we figure that we need Him. That way He knows that you CHOSE HIM. Here's mine though: I think he would have known we did it because we had to if we had had to because of no free will. Kind of like a parent wanting their child to do the right thing because it's the right thing and not because they had to or would get into trouble. Does that make sense? However, basically if you choose God, then yes you are supposed to live according to HIS guidelines and his guidance through prayer and the bible. We can choose Him and yes since we are NOT perfect will inevitably make mistakes. You can be forgiven if you acknowledge mistake to him and then stop doing it.
I don't think that you lose being saved by committing a sin, I just think that the rewards in heaven will be lessened by what we chose to do or not chose to do.

JMHO everyone.

I didn't answer it did i???

Lasher

10-31-2002, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by kelblend

A.--okay my understanding is this: Man can go against God's wishes if he so chooses. You know God could have said no free will and everyone come to me and we would have to. However, I think that by giving free will, we make the choice to go to him because we figure that we need Him. That way He knows that you CHOSE HIM. Here's mine though: I think he would have known we did it because we had to if we had had to because of no free will. Kind of like a parent wanting their child to do the right thing because it's the right thing and not because they had to or would get into trouble. Does that make sense? However, basically if you choose God, then yes you are supposed to live according to HIS guidelines and his guidance through prayer and the bible. We can choose Him and yes since we are NOT perfect will inevitably make mistakes. You can be forgiven if you acknowledge mistake to him and then stop doing it.
I don't think that you lose being saved by committing a sin, I just think that the rewards in heaven will be lessened by what we chose to do or not chose to do.

JMHO everyone.

I didn't answer it did i???

Yes what you said makes sense, and No you didn't answer the question, lol

BTW since we dicussed it earlier and it means so much to me, I've got something I wanna say :P

I know you are against homosexuality because it goes against your beliefs, but you have yet to judge me or look down on me because I am. I have all the respect in the world for you because of this.
Same goes for my little friggin ray of sunshine.

{{{Kel}}}

kelblend

10-31-2002, 11:55 PM

Well I tried to answer it lololol gave it the big E for effort anyway. lol

hey you're a sweetie lash (no matter what tasha says lmbo lol)what can i say?? Don't judge on that, just your personality. You are one committed lady to just about anything you do and I think that is admirable!!

{{{lash}}}:D

kelblend

10-31-2002, 11:57 PM

Besides who else can i smack with a trout????

heehee

*smack smack*

ewwwwwwwwwwww lash got smacked lololol:D

sorry had to do it!!!

SKYFYRE

11-01-2002, 12:03 AM

IMHO, It doesn't matter one bit. Love is love, and if two people love each other and are committed to each other, then they should be allowed to sanctify that raltionship in marriage. Also, IMHO, the reason so many states (government) are opposed to this is not because they really care about who marries, who, but because of the complications involved re: social security, inheritance benefits, etc.
Okay, that's all I gots ta' say.

Lasher

11-01-2002, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
Besides who else can i smack with a trout????

heehee

*smack smack*

ewwwwwwwwwwww lash got smacked lololol:D

sorry had to do it!!!

LOL http://perso.wanadoo.fr/atil/forum/xpaf5.gif

katwoman3

11-01-2002, 12:33 AM

In January of 1604, the King called the Hampton Court Conference in order to hear of things "pretended to be amiss" in the church. At this conference, Dr. John Reynolds, a Puritan, requested of the King a new translation of the Bible because those that were allowed during the reigns of Henry the VIII and Edward the VI were corrupt.
The King loved the idea and by July of 1604 the King had appointed 54 men to the translation committee. These men were not only the best linguists and scholars in the kingdom but in the world. Much of their work on the King James Bible formed the basis for our linguistic studies of today.

A puritan inspired King James to rewrite the Bible, and it was written by 54 men. So how can there be an accurate translation of something when you have 54 viewpoints?
JMHO:
There is no way it could be 100% accurate and not have some of those 54 mens' predjudices written into it. If someone wants to have complete faith in something men wrote, that's fine, I don't. Although a preacher told me that if you don't believe in all of it, you cannot believe in any of it. BS!

ravie3

11-01-2002, 12:38 AM

In my opinion who are any of us of to judge someone based on who they love? I'm not an extremely religious person, however I believe we will all be judged in the end. My best friend is gay, and although I may not understand his choice, I respect it. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with it, it is just not a life I choose for myself. And where in the bible does it say that GOD considered homosexuality a sin? As someone quoted before, the bible was written by man, not god, and if god created each and everyone of us and formed the people we are today how can gays be judged as sinners? They are not evil. Murderers are sinners, child molesters are sinners. I feel that none of us are perfect and most of us should look in our own back yards before we judge the lifes of others.

Again it's only my opinion!

denisemm

11-01-2002, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Machande_Kennels
I'm with the minority...

I do not condone homosexual behaviors. If you don't like it, remember that I'm entitled to my own opinion too.

OK, so do you think they should not be able to be married?

Lasher

11-01-2002, 01:55 AM

Actually I am curious to hear the views of the people who do not think homosexual marriage should be legalized.

As long as you can state your opinions without name calling, we should be able to have this dicussion. Surely if I can have this dicussion on a Christian forum, without it turning violent, we can do it here.

denisemm

11-01-2002, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by Lasher
Actually I am curious to hear the views of the people who do not think homosexual marriage should be legalized.

As long as you can state your opinions without name calling, we should be able to have this dicussion. Surely if I can have this dicussion on a Christian forum, without it turning violent, we can do it here.

That's what I was curious about. What is the reason people are against it. Because I really don't understand. And so far the only reasons given are that its against their religious beliefs, and something about society falling, neither of which really explain why someone else shouldn't be able to do it. THere are lots of things that other people do that I don't agree with, that doesn't mean it should not be legal.

Also (((((lash))))), 'cause I felt like it.

2chevys

11-01-2002, 08:52 AM

Well, I'm Christian but as I've stated before I think that this should be legalized but NOT a marriage as sanctioned by the church.

I also resent those that are name calling and stating that those against homosexuality are closed minded. I don't agree with that at all. I'm not for homosexuality but I do have homosexual friends.

Part of this seeming inconsistancy is I also have friends who are divorced, lie, cheat, and a variety of other sins I don't condone. Good Christians are to be friends and set examples to show the world a behavior so that maybe others will then adopt and forsake their own sins and turn to Christ. I'm not perfect either and my friends accept me and try to keep me honest. JMHO

gemini26

11-01-2002, 09:03 AM

Ok, I do not believe in homosexuality. If you are a Christian then it goes against everything you believe in. If you are not then I guess it does not matter. This being said, I do not agree with it and would stay away from it and anyone that is this way because it is what I choose. I am grossed out by two men or two women kissing and what not.
I don't want to see it. It is very unnatural to me!! But if you guys can be legalized so do it but not in a church since a church is related to God and God did invent Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve to be together. Before anyone says anything, my broer told me he was bisexual and to me that is gay because he likes to lay with men. I have a hard time with him being this way but I would not turn my back on my brother. I can tell you he was deeply religious and is not now because he knows it goes against the bible. I respect him for that and like that he is not being a hypocrite. I of course which he was straight and under God but I can not change him or do it for him. Its a very tough subject. I just told him I did not want to see any of that type of behavior in my house. i.e. him bringing a boyfriend over and them kissing or whatever.

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 09:06 AM

Okay - I wasn't going to comment...but here goes. I believe that couples (whether heterosexual or homosexual) should be able to have commitment ceremonies...particularly because of the legal ramifications if one isn't made.

I also happen to believe that "marriage" is "holy" and should be sanctified by God...therefore should be restricted to heterosexual couples. (Even so, many heterosexual couples are able to legally marry without God ever being a part from it.)

I realize that I am arguing semantics and there is probably no logical reason for it, except it works in my mind.

It is my religious belief that homosexuality is wrong. Yes - it is prohibited in the King James version of the Bible...but it is also prohibited in every other version...including updated translations which used the Dead Sea Scrolls as their source. With regard to the prohibition on homosexuality...this has been a consistant translation in all versions.

By the way, I also believe that sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. It is also prohibited in the Bible.

It is not up to me to judge homosexuals...or any other individual. God will do that in His time.

And so far the only reasons given are that its against their religious beliefs, and something about society falling, neither of which really explain why someone else shouldn't be able to do it.

I don't know why that doesn't explain it. The original "laws" were prohibitions based on religious belief. Thou shalt not kill...was an original law. Many laws are just expansions on previous laws that were based on religious belief.

Basically, if one feels that something is morally wrong...we don't want legislation to make that activity legal. Is that fair? Does it go against certain rights already established in the country? Probably. But that doesn't change the way we feel.

The original question was why some people don't think homosexual marriage should be legalized was answered. If your religous beliefs dictate that this behavior is wrong...then you simply aren't going to go for it.

On another note...if interested in what a gay Christian man says about the church and homosexuality, go to www.chrisglaser.com. This site belongs to is a dear friend who has a Master's degree in Divinity - from Yale, no less. We went to high school together and even dated for a brief while in college (lol...we won't go there).

Anyway, he is a proficient published writer who has reconciled his homosexuality with his Christian beliefs. While we don't always agree, I love him dearly.

BeesKnees

11-01-2002, 09:18 AM

What is curious is that kelsey feels one can be gay and Christian, while gemini is vehemently opposed to that idea. Yet they are self-proclaimed Christians. How can there be two diametrically opposing points of view , when they are both citing the same source ( The Bible and the word of God)
Not intending this as a slam on either of you BTW, I just am intrigued by all of the different interpretations of what is morally correct, but all of those opinions backed up by the singular title of Christianity.

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by BeesKnees
What is curious is that kelsey feels one can be gay and Christian, while gemini is vehemently opposed to that idea. Yet they are self-proclaimed Christians. How can there be two diametrically opposing points of view , when they are both citing the same source ( The Bible and the word of God)
Not intending this as a slam on either of you BTW, I just am intrigued by all of the different interpretations of what is morally correct, but all of those opinions backed up by the singular title of Christianity.

I don't see the problem at all. Because one is a Christian...doesn't mean we can't be a sinner. In fact, we know we are sinners. My friend is a Christian who has reconciled his beliefs with his gayness. He has reconciled these belief's to himself and to others. I still believe his homosexual behavior is sinful or morally wrong. It is no different than my belief that the many Christians who are living together (or sleeping together) are also engaged in sinful behavior. I really believe in the addage "hate the sin...love the sinner".

By the way, I also believe that when I am prideful or envious...I am also engaged in sinful behavior. Sin is sin. God doesn't classify sin by degrees or levels. It is ALL abhorant to God. I am very thankful that God forgives me for my sin. Without that forgiveness, I would be lost!

gemini26

11-01-2002, 09:30 AM

BeesKnees- thanks for saying that you weren't trying to slam us. Those of us that are Christians may very well interpret the Bible differently or belong to a Church that does so differently. I know one Church I have been to believed in speaking toungues whereas another thought it was evil! So this being said maybe we have grown up believing the same but differently (does this make sense)? I know I have grown up, since I was a child, believing In God and the Bible and doing what He says we should do to be able to be with Him. I don't know of one place in the Bible where it says man be with man or woman with woman. My feelings is that he created man and woman to be with each other and be able to procreate and raise children in his way. That being said I don't believe that homosexuality is Christian. No matter what!, two men and two women can not produce children in the true sense of the word unless they use a surrogate mother or sperm donor. This is the way I look at it and others I know and why I don't think that you can be gay and Christian. I hope I explained myself ok, its hard to get what is in your mind out eloquently.

MommyG3

11-01-2002, 09:36 AM

Okay, I will speak my piece now. I am a Christian and yes, I believe homosexuality is a sin. I, however, also believe that a homosexual can be a Christian. Reason...can you honestly say that Christians don't sin. They do. I am a Christian, but I do sin. After all, if you even think about doing something, it is the same as doing it, right? Would you then say that I was not a Christian becuase I cast lustful eyes upon another male besides my husband. Therefore, if a homosexual is committing a homosexual act, then they are committing a sin. When a person does become a Christain, they are not going to become perfect, but they should want to strive to be like Christ. Even though they never will, they should not want to hurt God by committing a sin.

I will also say this...I love all people. I may have something against you if you do something outright against me or a family member. However, I will NEVER hate someone because they have different views, preferences of lovers, or they commit any other kind of sin.

As far as who it hurts for a marriage, I really don't know. I do have friends that are gay and I don't know what they think about actually being "married" to someone of the same sex. I think they are in relationships, but not really ready to settle, but only they know.

jtl7000

11-01-2002, 09:47 AM

As a christian I do not beleive homosexuals should marry. It IS spelled out in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination not just a sin. It is also spelled out thatit is an abomination not just a sin to violate/break the holiness/sanctity of marriage vows (promisses) said before god So homosexual unions before god would put them in double jeopardy. It is also said in the bible that if your promisses (Vows) to God in a marriage are broken and the marriage becomes unclean you are to be stoned to death (old testament) or get re-baptised and then repeat your vows (new testament). So do you think God takes marriage lightly? If God has directed death (old testament)or a re-baptismal( new testament)it is a real big deal. In essense to get re-baptised you are saying that you were no longer washed in the blood therefore you would not go to heaven if you did not get re-baptised. My conclution is if marriage is that important and holy to God you can not get married if the very frame work of your realationship is an abomination.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 09:52 AM

Ya know got to thinking (scared?) and I guess it comes down to what "marriage" means to you. You know if you believe that marriage is a union between two people under God then do ya believe the rest of the bible? Then again do you believe marriage has anything to do with God?? If you just want to be recognized as a couple and have some legal rights, does that mean the same to you as marriage?

But then gov't steps in. Okay let's say two people (same sex) love each other with everything and want to become married or committed. Lets say the gov't finally says okay we will recognize it legally so that you may have the same privileges as married couples.What happens legally if they separate? Would they go through a traditional divorce? By the way, I seriously doubt that there would be a difference in the amount of separations compared to traditional. We are all human here lol.

Remember common law marriages lol??? I think there may still be some states that honor that. These people suddenly got some privileges without any certificate of marriage.

Maybe they should just call it a partnership in life and if you want to go through some commitment thing or whatever then you would gain some legal rights. However, I think if you get those rights, you would have to go through some sort of legal action to stop it if you choose to do so.
Ya know I seriously can't say what I think about honoring a commitment like that because I'm still not sure what my opinion is.

What if two women who had been best friends for life decided to just go through the rest of it together. Let's say that they were not "gay" but had given up on any relationship outside the two of them. Let's say they have kids and one wants to work and the other stays home with the younger ones. Hmmmmm they are just best friends here, seriously, do you think that someone should recognize the fact that they are helping each other out and let the working one put all the kids even the non-working's ones kids on her insurance if she paid for it???

once again it's like i just hurled every thought i have on the subject onto the page!!! lololol:rolleyes:

Lasher

11-01-2002, 09:58 AM

So far so good, lol everyone still have there apendages intact?:D

Ok, I understand everyone's viewpoint so far, one minor thing. The law can't be based on religious beliefs. If that happens, then Wicca can be made illegal, Pagans can be throwed in jail, along with the Jews and Catholics. According to "Christians" (meaning christians as a whole, not meant to be a blanketed statement) all of these are going against the bible.
Now granted the others are religious practices, and homosexuality, is an orientation, but the intial seperation of church and state law passed in 1967, is the reason homosexuality is no longer illegal.
It was decided then that the religious beliefs of one sec of the population could not be taken into consideration when passing a law.
I say one sec because "Catholics" ( once again not meant as a blanketed statement to include all) openly accept homosexuals.

http://www.dignityusa.org/index.html

Lasher

11-01-2002, 10:04 AM

And another Christian viewpoint

http://musingson.com/ccCase.html

This is pretty long, but interesting reading, so I am just going to copy the highlights and leave the link.

The Validity of the Gay Civil Rights Argument

This leads us to the issue of civil same-sex marriage. Most Christians oppose it, thinking this one is a no-brainer. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin, and so it would seem obvious that same-sex marriage is completely out of the question, right?

But Christians need to take a second look at this issue. Gays and lesbians have built a pretty solid civil rights case in favor of why they should be allowed to marry. For one thing, Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U. S. Supreme Court once wrote, "Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival." For another, homosexuals are the only group of people in American society who are legally barred from marriage. As long as the state refuses to recognize same-sex marriage, they cannot legally marry the person they love.

This is something to think about. If you are a single heterosexual adult in America, regardless of your race, religion, or ethnicity you have literally millions of marriage possibilities. But if you are a homosexual adult living anywhere in America, regardless of your race, religion, or ethnicity your opportunities for legal marriage are zilch (unless you go to Vermont, where you can enter into same-sex civil union). The only kind of marriage that can be legitimately granted to you is one you must enter into dishonestly, swearing before God and these witnesses to a love you don't really have.

But the kind of marriage homosexuals seek doesn't even involve swearing before God and these witnesses. What they want is a secular marriage granted and recognized by the state, and we can keep the religious institution of marriage homosexual-free if it makes us happy, they say.

People think that by allowing civil same-sex marriage, it won't be long before we'll allow people to marry their sister, or their pet iguana. But isn't there a big difference between a person who chooses incest or bestiality against the normal marriage options available to him, and a person who is only capable of being sexually attracted to someone of the same gender, so that without the right to enter into same-sex marriage he or she is left with no marriage option at all? People who like having sex with family members or dumb animals are making perverse sexual choices. By contrast the vast majority of homosexuals did not choose to be homosexual. They are people who find themselves attracted to other people of the same sex for reasons even they cannot explain.

Am I saying that the civil rights argument rests on understanding homosexuality to be an unchosen condition? Absolutely. And so this is a golden opportunity for us conservative Christians to finally get our heads out of the sand and start looking into this question for ourselves, instead of blindly accepting the anti-gay rhetoric of religious right leaders. Why do we believe people choose to be homosexual? Have we ever asked an actual homosexual person to explain his or her homosexuality to us?

Chances are we have not, because most of us have never had a close enough relationship with someone who is gay to build the trust for such personal things to be shared. We are so quick on the draw when it comes to whipping out our Bibles. Then we get trigger-happy, demolishing every protest with yet another verse that condemns homosexuality as a sin.

In making such condemnations, we don't usually distinguish between homosexual attraction and homosexual sex. The latter is obviously the outworking of the former, but as far as the former is concerned, have we asked ourselves how it is that one chooses to be attracted to people of the same sex? How many of us have taken the time to consider how such a thing might work?

For so long we have told ourselves we don't need to look into it. We believe homosexuality is chosen because the Bible teaches it is a sin, and then we define sin as an act of willful disobedience to God's law. But is such a narrow definition true to our own experience with sin? I think not. None of us have been able to choose away all of our own sins. In fact, there are many things that the Bible considers to be sin that operate at a such a deep level in our nature, such as pride, selfishness, self-righteousness and impurity, that they seem out of the reach of a simple act of human will.

This is something to keep in mind when you go to the gay and lesbian section of your local library or bookstore, or search for web sites posted by gay Christians, and start reading for yourself the personal accounts of people's private struggles with homosexual feelings. I think you will be struck by the similarity of the stories, whether told by men or women, Christians or non-Christians, Protestant evangelicals or Roman Catholics or Jews, ex-gays or people who have tried to change and could not. Even the stories of ex-gays tell of an agonizing, ongoing struggle that seems only to confirm why it is that so many people cannot change.

For the most part you will hear ordinary people talk about how they have battled their homosexual feelings most of their lives and tried to suppress them to no avail. You will learn about the shame and the fear that sent many of them into hiding; and how in spite of every incentive, the desire for parental approval, the dream of someday having children, gaining acceptance in a small town community, escaping the threat of AIDS, people still could not change literally (as in the case of AIDS) to save their lives.

I suppose you can dismiss these people's stories. You can argue that they are so depraved and so in love with their sin that they are incapable of responding normally and humanly to such strong incentives. You can believe that, as long as you understand that in doing so, you are in the name of Christian morality judging all homosexual persons to be categorically sub-human. You might also argue that these people are simply lying. And you can believe that too, as long as you understand that such a cavalier dismissal seems to lack the diligence God expects from us in keeping his ninth commandment not to bear false witness against our neighbor.

Why not simply take the common sense route? Why not acknowledge that apart from a miraculous work of God, it appears that for the most part a gay person's chances of successfully adopting heterosexual feelings are about the same as a straight person's chances of successfully adopting homosexual feelings?

A civilized society ought to recognize that there is a big difference between homosexuality thus understood, and perverse and irresponsible sexual practices such as incest and bestiality. Thus, it is only appropriate to respond by treating homosexual persons humanely and allowing them to live their lives with dignity and respect. And whatever we as Christians might conclude about the morality of homosexuality before God, we also have to realize that with respect to society a gay person's open acknowledgement of his or her homosexuality is, in a very real sense, an act of personal integrity.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:07 AM

ok you know you are right. I guess then that it's just people not letting it go through either legislators themselves or some voting. They always go back to how america's constitution was founded on Christianity. You know i get this is a catch-22 in a way here. If it's not supposed to be based on religious beliefs, then it shouldn't. You know there are probably alot of legal things out there that I don't agree with, but I don't usually have to deal with it so... But if it did affect me, I would fight it. I seriously don't think gay commitments would affect me except in all honesty in only one way.

If this became mainstream, I guess I would have to explain to my kids sooner than I wanted. Yep, I would explain with my beliefs but not with hate ever. I think some people think that if it became legally recognized that their kids would think it's okay. Which is sort of stupid in a way because a parent teaches what they teach and a kid takes in what they take in regardless of how it is presented.

I'm quite sure that there is something controversial that's legal out there that I don't agree with, I just can't think with the kids home from school.. This post took too long to type lol

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
Ya know got to thinking (scared?) and I guess it comes down to what "marriage" means to you. You know if you believe that marriage is a union between two people under God then do ya believe the rest of the bible? Then again do you believe marriage has anything to do with God?? If you just want to be recognized as a couple and have some legal rights, does that mean the same to you as marriage?

But then gov't steps in. Okay let's say two people (same sex) love each other with everything and want to become married or committed. Lets say the gov't finally says okay we will recognize it legally so that you may have the same privileges as married couples.What happens legally if they separate? Would they go through a traditional divorce? By the way, I seriously doubt that there would be a difference in the amount of separations compared to traditional. We are all human here lol.

Remember common law marriages lol??? I think there may still be some states that honor that. These people suddenly got some privileges without any certificate of marriage.

Maybe they should just call it a partnership in life and if you want to go through some commitment thing or whatever then you would gain some legal rights. However, I think if you get those rights, you would have to go through some sort of legal action to stop it if you choose to do so.
Ya know I seriously can't say what I think about honoring a commitment like that because I'm still not sure what my opinion is.

What if two women who had been best friends for life decided to just go through the rest of it together. Let's say that they were not "gay" but had given up on any relationship outside the two of them. Let's say they have kids and one wants to work and the other stays home with the younger ones. Hmmmmm they are just best friends here, seriously, do you think that someone should recognize the fact that they are helping each other out and let the working one put all the kids even the non-working's ones kids on her insurance if she paid for it???

once again it's like i just hurled every thought i have on the subject onto the page!!! lololol:rolleyes:

Kelbland...we think alike. I think "marriage" is a holy union under God. But...there are a lot of people who don't believe that way and should they be denied legal rights? And yes...if people were legally recognized as a couple...then they would definitely have to go through the legality of breaking that union as well.

Because I know, work with, and am friends with lots of gay people, I recognize my own ambivalence on the subject.

Ok, I understand everyone's viewpoint so far, one minor thing. The law can't be based on religious beliefs. If that happens, then Wicca can be made illegal, Pagans can be throwed in jail, along with the Jews and Catholics. According to "Christians" (meaning christians as a whole, not meant to be a blanketed statement) all of these are going against the bible.

Lasher...As a Christian, I don't believe that those who believe differently than me should be thrown into jail. I'm thankful that I live in a country which allows diverse thought and belief's - even when they differ from mine. I can still believe their behavior is wrong morally, just not legally. I'm talking "Higher Power" here. Their behavior will be judged by God at the perfect time. It doesn't warrent being thrown in jail for.

However...I won't personally support the "legality" of gay "marriages"...as I believe that marriage is a sacred union under God. Again...it is semantics...

I also recognize that our government may make decisions which are outside my religious belief. My opinions are guided by my religious beliefs, not necessarily the "law" as passed by men.

ksjayhawkfan

11-01-2002, 10:16 AM

I think religion should be kept out of the law too. Who am I to judge someone for anything? The question was" How does it hurt anyone if women marry women and men mary men? My answer is simply this..**** each their own. I dont think it hurts me in any way. Its none of my business who marries who or why for that matter. Im living MY life not theirs.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:20 AM

What if it was just considered a legal commitment??? Would people who have a problem with the word "marriage" have a problem with this?? See, maybe some people want a commitment, but that doesn't mean any of us need to know their level of commitment. Maybe they should just make a law allowing commitments between people (whether gay or not) so that people who just need each other won't be left hanging in the wind should something happen to the other due to not having any legal rights.

What about someone who just gives their life over to helping someone??? Okay here's another would people who are gay be mad if a law were passed that covered commitments between two people no matter the sex but didn't necessarily add the word gay??

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk
The end of the world will be here any day now. I have heard it all.

well now which opinion makes ya think the end of the world is coming ?? lolololol

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:21 AM

Hey im trying to make everyone happy without ticking anyone off. I would NOT be a good politician would I??? lolol

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
What if it was just considered a legal commitment??? Would people who have a problem with the word "marriage" have a problem with this?? See, maybe some people want a commitment, but that doesn't mean any of us need to know their level of commitment. Maybe they should just make a law allowing commitments between people (whether gay or not) so that people who just need each other won't be left hanging in the wind should something happen to the other due to not having any legal rights.

What about someone who just gives their life over to helping someone??? Okay here's another would people who are gay be mad if a law were passed that covered commitments between two people no matter the sex but didn't necessarily add the word gay??

I don't have a problem with legalizing the relationship...just the word "marriage". I just can't get past the word...and I apologize for my pettyness.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

I don't have a problem with legalizing the relationship...just the word "marriage". I just can't get past the word...and I apologize for my pettyness.

Know what??? I seriously think alot of people cannot get over the word and what it means to them. I left out marriage as well. I seriously don't think that gay couples would care if they got the same legal privileges. JMHO

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Lasher
and Catholics. According to "Christians" (meaning christians as a whole, not meant to be a blanketed statement) all of these are going against the bible.
I say one sec because "Catholics" ( once again not meant as a blanketed statement to include all) openly accept homosexuals.

Well, I was always taught in school (Catholic) that the Church teaches that being gay is not wrong but that acting upon that, i.e., having sexual intimacy with someone of the same gender is wrong. Lol, I listened so well, given my opinion!:D
No seriously, I did listen well, just still have my own mind

Anyways, I never understand that stuff that you have in the first part - why so many Christians are so vehemently anti-Catholic (not all, just some, I know, but it seems most I come across, lol). Catholics consider themselves Christian too. Anyways,

this Catholic loves ya lash!

Lasher

11-01-2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk
The end of the world will be here any day now. I have heard it all.

If you can eloborate without condeming us all or name calling, please feel free to speak your mind.

Lasher

11-01-2002, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

I don't have a problem with legalizing the relationship...just the word "marriage". I just can't get past the word...and I apologize for my pettyness.

LOL if it makes you feel any better, they would be called commitment ceremonies like they are in Vermont, and they are not held in churches normally, and no paster, preist, preacher is required to preform the service, it is a choice unlike heterosexual marriages in which a church cannot deny to preform the service.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:29 AM

Well i do believe we have come to some sort of agreement lash lmao

if it were only that easy and our opinions made the change right?

(((lash)))

BeesKnees

11-01-2002, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
Hey im trying to make everyone happy without ticking anyone off. I would NOT be a good politician would I??? lolol

Politician : No

Diplomat: Absolutely!!!!!:D :D :D

I am very much like you in that sense.

Willow

11-01-2002, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by gemini26
Ok, I do not believe in homosexuality. If you are a Christian then it goes against everything you believe in. If you are not then I guess it does not matter. This being said, I do not agree with it and would stay away from it and anyone that is this way because it is what I choose. I am grossed out by two men or two women kissing and what not.
I don't want to see it. It is very unnatural to me!! But if you guys can be legalized so do it but not in a church since a church is related to God and God did invent Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve to be together. Before anyone says anything, my broer told me he was bisexual and to me that is gay because he likes to lay with men. I have a hard time with him being this way but I would not turn my back on my brother. I can tell you he was deeply religious and is not now because he knows it goes against the bible. I respect him for that and like that he is not being a hypocrite. I of course which he was straight and under God but I can not change him or do it for him. Its a very tough subject. I just told him I did not want to see any of that type of behavior in my house. i.e. him bringing a boyfriend over and them kissing or whatever.

I also don't like seeing two people of the same sex being intimate in any way. It isn't natural. If everyone chose to be this way then life would cease to exist as we know it. If men were supposed to be with men and womem with women then there would be no life. Obviously we were meant to be with the opposite sex for a reason. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. As for the Christians stating that the bible doesn't condone gays, that is true. It says in the bible that it's an abomination. So for the people who say they are Christian and also gay that is kind of a contradiction because according to the bible God loves the sinner but hates the sin so if you are gay and a Christian and you realize that the bible is against that then you should repent and stop commiting the sin. If you know it's against what the bible says and continue to do it anyway then you're a hypocrite. Although I am not a Christian now, I have read the bible and attended a Christian church for a few years and I know what their beliefs are and I believe that man and woman were created the way they are for a reason.

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by BeesKnees

Politician : No

Diplomat: Absolutely!!!!!:D :D :D

I am very much like you in that sense.

heehee so how come it isn't as easy to do this with the kids???? lmbo
I think all mothers become diplomats !!!!!

BeesKnees

11-01-2002, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by Autumn12843

It isn't natural. If everyone chose to be this way then life would cease to exist as we know it.

Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time, one only needs to cite the Bible to realize that it has been around at least that long anyway......

So how exactly would “life as we know it” be any different.

Not everybody will suddenly turn gay simply because it is more widely accepted or commitments between gay couples legally recognized.

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by jtl7000
As a christian I do not beleive homosexuals should marry. It IS spelled out in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination not just a sin.

Just curious, but I did not realize that sin was divided into levels - and I didn't realize abomination is a special level of sin. I thought abomination means that something was really bad, and again, i thought that all sin was really bad:confused:

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:41 AM

okay what was the question again???? lol wow i'm getting lost here. :D

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:43 AM

double poster double poster

citizen's arrest!!:D

kelblend

11-01-2002, 10:47 AM

How does letting a woman marry a woman, or a man marry a man, make a man+woman marriage less protected? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all, and I seriously want to understand why some people think it will hurt them, so I can have an intelligent debate about it.

okay I see no reason or way that this would affect my marriage. The only thing i see that some people could say is that they are afraid if it's passed that their children may think that makes it right. I personally have seen it forever and it didn't turn me. Hey they told me cigarettes were bad and guess who still smokes ya know?

That's another example. I haven't been to church in tooo long, but when I was I still smoked and felt horrible. I knew this is bad because you are supposed to treat your body like a temple. I still had the hardest time with it. Did I feel this made me non-christian because I smoked, no. I do believe what I was doing was a sin and God knows I struggle with it. I am not equating being gay with smoking only that parents and ads said it was wrong and I stupidly didn't listen. I guess just because you knew commitments were legal doesn't mean you would all of a sudden say it's okay and now im gay. Im arguing with myself now.

:rolleyes:

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Autumn12843

I also don't like seeing two people of the same sex being intimate in any way. It isn't natural. If everyone chose to be this way then life would cease to exist as we know it. If men were supposed to be with men and womem with women then there would be no life. Obviously we were meant to be with the opposite sex for a reason. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

But what if it is normal? After all, only a certain percentage of the population is gay, and that is not likely to increase just because gay relationships are legalized. The only way life would die out is if everyone was gay. Maybe the "we" that was meant to be with the opposite sex is just that - "we" - and there are others that are meant to be with the same sex.

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
Im arguing with myself now.

:rolleyes:

LMAO!!

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Lasher

LOL if it makes you feel any better, they would be called commitment ceremonies like they are in Vermont, and they are not held in churches normally, and no paster, preist, preacher is required to preform the service, it is a choice unlike heterosexual marriages in which a church cannot deny to preform the service.

I'm laughing too...I realize that I'm being a stickler over something that holds significance to me.

Unfortunately, I don't think others will be as easily appeased as you and I are.

By the way...churches can deny performing services. They do it all the time. My former church would not perform marriage services if one of the couple was not a member of the church. And pre-engagement counseling was required!!! Many churches however use this as a source of revenue.

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 11:00 AM

moocher

11-01-2002, 11:05 AM

WOW!!!

I am impressed!! 104 replies and this thread is still open! And I don't believe I saw any real hostility or name calling!

Have a great day everyone!!

Willow

11-01-2002, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by BeesKnees

Homosexuality has existed since the beginning of time, one only needs to cite the Bible to realize that it has been around at least that long anyway......

So how exactly would “life as we know it” be any different.

Not everybody will suddenly turn gay simply because it is more widely accepted or commitments between gay couples legally recognized.

I wasn't saying that homosexuality is something new. What I was trying to get at is that if everyone chose to be that way then there wouldn't be any procreation. If you think about that I'm sure you can figure out how things would be different. If that is the way that it was meant to be then why does it take both a man and a woman to produce a baby. So in my opinion being homosexual is not natural.

Kelsey1224

11-01-2002, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by moocher
WOW!!!

I am impressed!! 104 replies and this thread is still open! And I don't believe I saw any real hostility or name calling!

It just shows that we are a civilized group here on this board!!!

What I was trying to get at is that if everyone chose to be that way then there wouldn't be any procreation.

But...the majority of people wouldn't "choose" to be gay. You might have a small percentage of gay people who have denied their sexuality now being more open about it. But, the rest of us would pretty much do what we are doing now.

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by Autumn12843

I wasn't saying that homosexuality is something new. What I was trying to get at is that if everyone chose to be that way then there wouldn't be any procreation. If you think about that I'm sure you can figure out how things would be different. If that is the way that it was meant to be then why does it take both a man and a woman to produce a baby. So in my opinion being homosexual is not natural.

And again:But what if it is normal? After all, only a certain percentage of the population is gay, and that is not likely to increase just because gay relationships are legalized. The only way life would die out is if everyone was gay. Maybe the "we" that was meant to be with the opposite sex is just that - "we" - and there are others that are meant to be with the same sex.

Willow

11-01-2002, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

It just shows that we are a civilized group here on this board!!!

But...the majority of people wouldn't "choose" to be gay. You might have a small percentage of gay people who have denied their sexuality now being more open about it. But, the rest of us would pretty much do what we are doing now.

I will try to clarify what I mean. I'm not saying that all of a sudden if gay marriages were to become legal that all gays would just come running out of the woodwork to get married. I'm making a general statement. I'm talking about if way back in the beginning when man and woman were first created. If a man was supposed to be partnered with a man or a woman partnered with a woman then there would be no life because there would be no way for them to procreate and that is why I think it's unnatural. That just isn't how things were meant to be. We were put here so the world would evolve.

MommyG3

11-01-2002, 11:34 AM

this is cool that we can keep this going without being meanies. It is also veeeeeeeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy interesting.

jtl7000

11-01-2002, 11:49 AM

Just another thought on the topic. This is my second reply and as my first one says I am against it. It also states that I am a christian. I just wanted to talk about this weird double standard/hypocracy. If you watch music videos or movies or even network tv you will know that a common homosexual theme is two nice looking women getting it on. This too is a common theme in almost every porno graphic movie/magazine. The very people (usually men) who condem male homosexuality and tell you that it is wrong and a sin and against God find this "good looking girl" homosexuality OK!!! This is just as much of a sin and abomination as two guys. If you have lust in your heart you are not worthy of the kingdom of God. Strive to be Moral, get rid of the lust in your heart, and live a wholesome life. Never Never set out with the intention of breaking Gods 10 commandments. (these were commandments not requests.) And mean it when you ask for forgiveness and dont repeat the same sin over and over knowing its wrong. Sorry I got off on a tangent.

Widgetsx3

11-01-2002, 11:58 AM

Ok...second post...I am a Christian, who chooses to walk a path with God, however, I don't attend a religeous business. I have been to so many churches whose focus is building bigger and better churches, instead of building homes for those who need them. Or food for those who are hungry. I have seen churches who condemn people for being something God made them. I believe that MY God does not make mistakes, and that homosexuality is born/not learned or decided. Who honestly would choose such a difficult path? Why would my God make this person if it is so wrong? Especially since we are made in His Own image. I believe that each of us are placed here for a purpose, and if that purpose is to love someone of the same sex, who am I to say that it is an abomination? My God teaches, Faith Hope and Love...but most of all Love. To Love thy neighbor. To Love thy enemy. Hugs to everyone for keeping this thread so peaceful.

tiffany21

11-01-2002, 12:01 PM

I think they should be able to everyone is intitled to their like and happieness so I say they should be aloude to marry who they want

annie169

11-01-2002, 01:03 PM

Why can't we heterosexual married/committed couples have something "just for us" without having to accomadate for the others??

BeesKnees

11-01-2002, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by annie169
Why can't we heterosexual married/committed couples have something "just for us" without having to accomadate for the others??

Personally, my marriage to my husband is “just for us” and whether or not gay couples are allowed to do will not change that fact. I don’t see how allowing gay couples to marry would be asking me and my husband to accommodate for anybody.
I don’t understand your point I guess.
:confused:

~MK~

11-01-2002, 01:18 PM

For whoever asked me if I think they should be able to get married...

I don't condone their relationship, so why would I think it's alright for them to get married?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

ckerr4

11-01-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by Autumn12843

I will try to clarify what I mean. I'm not saying that all of a sudden if gay marriages were to become legal that all gays would just come running out of the woodwork to get married. I'm making a general statement. I'm talking about if way back in the beginning when man and woman were first created. If a man was supposed to be partnered with a man or a woman partnered with a woman then there would be no life because there would be no way for them to procreate and that is why I think it's unnatural. That just isn't how things were meant to be. We were put here so the world would evolve.

But my point is that perhaps it was never meant to be only one way or the other. Perhaps the intent was to have heterosexual couples that could fulfill the function of procreation, but to also have homosexual couples who are just as capable of loving each other and raising children, even if those chidlren are aquired in other ways. Just because the first couple on earth, according to the Bible, was heterosexual does not mean that is the only way. Life had to start someway, but that does not mean that it cannot ever change or be diverse.

aprilwine2000

11-01-2002, 01:45 PM

I just want to put a few of my opinions here:

1.I believe you should love who you love...if it's a sin for you to be a homosexual then that is between God & you...not me & you,I am not put here to pass judgement.A good human being is all I require to be friends.

2.As far as saying the government would be condoning the gay relationships by allowing legal rights & benefits to married partners...Does that mean they are condoning me being an unmarried mother by providing me with assistance & benefits if I were not married to the father of my children.Think of the children who will/do suffer because they cannot get insurance or benefits from their gay parent.

I could go on,but I digress...

please continue...

denisemm

11-01-2002, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224
Okay - I wasn't going to comment...but here goes. I believe that couples (whether heterosexual or homosexual) should be able to have commitment ceremonies...particularly because of the legal ramifications if one isn't made.

I also happen to believe that "marriage" is "holy" and should be sanctified by God...therefore should be restricted to heterosexual couples. (Even so, many heterosexual couples are able to legally marry without God ever being a part from it.)

I realize that I am arguing semantics and there is probably no logical reason for it, except it works in my mind...

It is not up to me to judge homosexuals...or any other individual. God will do that in His time.

(my quote)

I don't know why that doesn't explain it. The original "laws" were prohibitions based on religious belief. Thou shalt not kill...was an original law. Many laws are just expansions on previous laws that were based on religious belief.

Basically, if one feels that something is morally wrong...we don't want legislation to make that activity legal. Is that fair? Does it go against certain rights already established in the country? Probably. But that doesn't change the way we feel.

The original question was why some people don't think homosexual marriage should be legalized was answered. If your religous beliefs dictate that this behavior is wrong...then you simply aren't going to go for it.

OK, the way you have explained this, makes sense to me. I don't agree, but I understand.

nanajoanie

11-01-2002, 03:18 PM

I wish the courts would get out of the marriage business. I'm sure that this stuff existed back in the beginning of time. That's life. I think the world has more important things to be concerned about than who is in the bedroom with who.......Man-Man or Woman_Woman doesn't matter to me but hubby refuses to even discuss the topic. That's life. We are all different folks to make up this extremely versatile world we all live in.

I have no problem with "gay, divorced, deformed, polka dotted, straight, striped, 100 years old, etc." teachers. You are not allowed to teach your preferences if it is NOT in the textbook. Or do I still have my head in the sand??????????

denisemm

11-01-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Widgetsx3
Ok...second post...I am a Christian, who chooses to walk a path with God, however, I don't attend a religeous business. I have been to so many churches whose focus is building bigger and better churches, instead of building homes for those who need them. Or food for those who are hungry. I have seen churches who condemn people for being something God made them. I believe that MY God does not make mistakes, and that homosexuality is born/not learned or decided. Who honestly would choose such a difficult path? Why would my God make this person if it is so wrong? Especially since we are made in His Own image. I believe that each of us are placed here for a purpose, and if that purpose is to love someone of the same sex, who am I to say that it is an abomination? My God teaches, Faith Hope and Love...but most of all Love. To Love thy neighbor. To Love thy enemy. Hugs to everyone for keeping this thread so peaceful.

Amen to that!!!!!!!!!!

denisemm

11-01-2002, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Machande_Kennels
For whoever asked me if I think they should be able to get married...

I don't condone their relationship, so why would I think it's alright for them to get married?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

OK, but I don't condone drinking alcohol, that doesn't mean I think other people shouldn't be able to do it. So what I mean is, just because its against your personal beliefs, doesn't mean it should be illegal for everyone.

denisemm

11-01-2002, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by kelblend

okay I see no reason or way that this would affect my marriage.

I don't either, yet all the signs say "protect marriage, vote yes on question 2". And I just don't exactly get that, because my marriage is not going to be un-safe if same sex marriage is allowed. So it pisses me off, because I'm sure those signs are just to get un-educated voters attention so they will vote yes, even if they don't really kow what the question is

2chevys

11-01-2002, 05:26 PM

This has been the most interesting discussion I have read in a long time!

Question: For those who believe that homosexuality is born and not chosen-The should we also accept behaviors like kleptomania, alchoholism, etc. that are inherited and born in behaviors as long as they don't affect the rest of us? What about all the people that 'experiment' with homosexuality? Is it really a born in trait with them also?

Who are these Catholics that accept homosexuals? My Catholic friends have been all taught in church that it is not an acceptable behavior. Although, with the garbage the Catholic church has hidden that was committed by their own priests one wonders??!

I was also thinking that if homosexual relationships were legalized then why not any two people-sex involved or not-be able to reap the same legal benefits. It sure would clear up a lot of inheritance and other issues.

Glad to see other Christians responding to this issue.

cavemtmomma

11-01-2002, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by denisemm

That's what I was curious about. What is the reason people are against it. Because I really don't understand. And so far the only reasons given are that its against their religious beliefs, and something about society falling, neither of which really explain why someone else shouldn't be able to do it. THere are lots of things that other people do that I don't agree with, that doesn't mean it should not be legal.

Also (((((lash))))), 'cause I felt like it.

I've been giggling ever since I read this!!! So society falling isn't a problem huh? LOL! Since I'm basically a survivalist (In the sense of being self sufficient, NOT RACIST!!} I guess I agree.:p

ahippiechic

11-01-2002, 08:23 PM

I have a gay friend who just got married in Vermont. & ya know what? Her doing that didn't affect my marriage one bit!

Whoever gave the example of 2 "same sex/just friends" getting married to be able to cover the kids on insurance & stuff, I have a couple of friends who did that also, but they aren't same-sex.

And this is my 86 year old Grandma's opinion.............
"I don't think being gay is what God wants for us, but all of that ain't none of my business. I take care of me & God, them gay people can take of them & God. Anybody ought to be able marry who ever they want to, the government ain't God, either, so they don't need to be telling people who they can't marry. God loves everybody. And everybody is a sinner, even me. Gay people can be Christians, too. When you tell a lie, or be envious, you're sinninng. Sin is sin."

I hope that didn't offend anybody. I never expected to get such a long answer from her. I had written her about this laast week, because of a similar thread on another forum.

SKYFYRE

11-01-2002, 08:34 PM

WOW!!!This discussion has been very interesting, indeed! Most of the comments have been heartfelt, and thoughtful...well, except for that "Adam and Steve" one:rolleyes: REAL original! LOL!
I would be pleased if some of you who cited the King James things would give me your sources though. I am always interested in researching the backgrounds of religious belief systems, even my own! If I don't learn everything I can, then how do I truly know WHAT I believe in? If you would care to share your sources, please email me at: skyfyre131@yahoo.com
Thankees!!! :D

Tasha405

11-01-2002, 09:03 PM

Question: For those who believe that homosexuality is born and not chosen-The should we also accept behaviors like kleptomania, alchoholism, etc. that are inherited and born in behaviors as long as they don't affect the rest of us? What about all the people that 'experiment' with homosexuality? Is it really a born in trait with them also?
People who are klepto and alcoholics hurt themselves and/or others. Is it hurting you for someone to be gay? No. Are they hurting themselves or others? No.

People who experiment with homosexuality are doing just that, experimenting because they are curious.

katwoman3

11-01-2002, 09:44 PM

Here's a link to a King James Biography. :D
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/kingbio.htm

ravie3

11-01-2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by Tasha405

People who experiment with homosexuality are doing just that, experimenting because they are curious.

I'm sure that there are those who do experiment, however recent testing has shown that the brain of person showing homosexual tendencies does have a different wiring system, and if this is true some people believe it can be rewired for gays to become heterosexuals. I say god made you the way you are. So why mess with it? I hate to bring religion into any of this, but it does seem to be an issue for some people. I am a catholic and homosexuality is considered a sin, but yet some of the clergy in my religion are gay, and child molesters. I believe to each his own, as I said in my previous post my bestfriend is gay and I may not understand the life he has chosen, however I support and love him. I think we should all live our own lifes and not judge others for the way they live theirs. I might add I mentioned the child molester thing is this post I do not believe in to each his own for them. They need be put away for life so please nobody yell at me about this. I do not support child molesters in any way shape or form.

Lasher

11-01-2002, 10:38 PM

Originally posted by 2chevys
Question: For those who believe that homosexuality is born and not chosen-The should we also accept behaviors like kleptomania, alchoholism, etc. that are inherited and born in behaviors as long as they don't affect the rest of us?

Kleptomania, and Alcoholism are both diseases, homosexuality is not.

Who are these Catholics that accept homosexuals?

First note I stated it was not a blanketed statement, second I provided the link to Dignity International, the nations largest GLBT Catholic church organization.

I was also thinking that if homosexual relationships were legalized then why not any two people-sex involved or not-be able to reap the same legal benefits. It sure would clear up a lot of inheritance and other issues.

Heterosexuals already have the option to get married and reap these benefits.

What about all the people that 'experiment' with homosexuality?

Is it really a born in trait with them also?

What about all the people who are born homosexual and experiment with heterosexuality?

Lasher

11-01-2002, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by SKYFYRE
WOW!!!This discussion has been very interesting, indeed! Most of the comments have been heartfelt, and thoughtful...well, except for that "Adam and Steve" one:rolleyes: REAL original! LOL!
I would be pleased if some of you who cited the King James things would give me your sources though. I am always interested in researching the backgrounds of religious belief systems, even my own! If I don't learn everything I can, then how do I truly know WHAT I believe in? If you would care to share your sources, please email me at: skyfyre131@yahoo.com
Thankees!!! :D

I can quote the Old and New Testament all day, lol

In Sodom and Gomorrah the crime was pride.

Ezekiel 16:49 - 50, "Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good." Isaiah tells of lack of justice. Jeremiah emphasizes moral and ethical laxity. The Deuterocanonical books identify the sin as pride and inhospitality; in Wisdom 19:13-14, we read "...whereas the men of Sodom received not the strangers when they came among them." In Ecclesiasticus 16:8 the sin is recognized as pride: "He did not spare the people among whom Lot was living, whom he detested for their pride." In the New Testament, too, there is reference to Sodom and inhospitality: In Luke 10:10-13, Christ talks about cities that are inhospitable to his disciples. He warns: "...it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city." It's not until the very late books of 2 Peter (2:4) and Jude (6), that sex is considered a sin of Sodom. These books were written several generations after the deaths of the apostles and were talking about the transgression of the natural order of life when angelic and human beings have heterosexual relations - a major concern to the popular Stoic philosophy of the time.

Not only are there no references to homosexual acts when Scripture refers to Sodom, there are no references to Sodom when the Scriptures refer to homosexuality. There are several biblical passages that some have misunderstood as condemning homosexual acts. Not one of these gives Sodom as an example of the result of homosexual behavior. Considering how often Sodom was used as an example of the result of wicked behavior, it's apparent that biblical times did not see homosexual acts as the important lesson of the destruction of Sodom.

Lot attempts to protect the visitors sent by God by offering his two virgin daughters to be raped. The people of Sodom refuse them and the angels render the crowd blind. Lot and his family are then rescued by the angels as the cities are destroyed.

God spared Lot and his daughters from the destruction of Sodom. Genesis 19:33-36 goes on to say how the daughters got Lot drunk and committed incest with him. Would God destroy two cities for homosexuality and save these people so they would go right out and commit incest?

Perhaps one of the most misleading term in English is the use of the word sodomy to describe anal penetration and/or male homosexuality. The mere fact of this linguistic development sealed in the minds of many English speaking people that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality.

For 2,000 years, until the last century before Christ, Israel understood the lesson of Sodom to be one of pride and hospitality.

Before anyone has a cow, (no mooing , lol) I am not saying homosexuality wasn't in the bible, just IMHO it wasn't what Sodom and Gomarrah was about.

Cowgirlie_in_Tennessee

11-02-2002, 12:54 AM

Okay, a few things to keep in mind before I get to what I am thinking right now... 1. It is 2:34 AM and this is when I do my best thinking, or at least what I want to say seems to come out best. 2. Lasher, I realize that you probably have no idea who I am, as I really don't post a lot on these forums, and especially not on the more controversal ones- mainly because I have a big mouth and bad temper and I seem to offend people rather easily...I'm rambling... anyways, I wanted to say that I have read your threads here and there and you seem to be a very educated, enlightened person and that is exactly why I hope you will answers some questions for me.

Most of my questions regarding this issue involve *gasp* religion and the Bible... I also noticed that you seem to know the Bible backwards and fowards...so this will help me a lot. I want to state my opinion on this topic though before I ask my questions: Do I agree with Homosexuality? No. Do I think you will go to Hell if you are? Maybe you (YOU being a blanket-term) will. Do I agree with same-sex marriages: No.

Now with my questions: 1. I know someone made the very original claim "If God wanted homosexuality, He would of made Adam and Steve." Well okay, I guess I'm just a very confused Christian- and trust me I've felt this way for a while- but we claim to know that there is God, Jesus' father. So we are to assume that some mystical sperm just showed up, and Mary got pregnant. So then what role does Joseph really have, other than to say no one was going to believe that Joseph didn't have sex with her and that she just happened to get preggo. So before Mary and Joseph, there was Adam and Eve right? Maybe I am just so confused I don't get it. So GOD had Jesus (son of Mary and Joseph) and GOD also created Adam and Eve. So can you tell me PLEASE who were their parents? I really want to know and I am not focused enough to read the Bible to figure it out. Also who are the children of Adam and Eve? Kane and Abel (sp)correct? Who did they hook up with? Can you give me and maybe those who are confused and not saying it some idea as to who was related to whom?

On the other hand, can you please tell me the names of any OPENLY homosexual couple in the Bible? If God (Jesus' father) was so against it, how has it come to be? Why would "someone" who despised (for lack of a better term) it allow us (again a blanket term) in modern times to "be" homosexual? Or is it possible that as others have said there has always been homosexuality (looking for scripture here) and one day, in more modern times, someone decided "Oh yuck" - say during the translation of the King James version- and it was just written in as a bad thing due to the circumstances?

Also, one final question: Have you ever read the book "The Bible Code"?

Thanks for any insights you might give!

missmac69

11-02-2002, 01:19 AM

Originally posted by kelblend
Well I tried to answer it lololol gave it the big E for effort anyway. lol

hey you're a sweetie lash (no matter what tasha says lmbo lol)what can i say?? Don't judge on that, just your personality. You are one committed lady to just about anything you do and I think that is admirable!!

{{{lash}}}:D
:eek: OMG LASHER IS A GIRRRL??????? HAHAHA ALL THIS TIME i THOUGHT SHE WAS A HE:rolleyes: SO I GOTTA SAY LASH YOU ARE ONE SMART CHICKA!!!
Oh and just my 2 cents worth here too I think to each their own

Lasher

11-02-2002, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by Cowgirlie_in_Tennessee

Now with my questions: 1. I know someone made the very original claim "If God wanted homosexuality, He would of made Adam and Steve." Well okay, I guess I'm just a very confused Christian- and trust me I've felt this way for a while- but we claim to know that there is God, Jesus' father. So we are to assume that some mystical sperm just showed up, and Mary got pregnant. So then what role does Joseph really have, other than to say no one was going to believe that Joseph didn't have sex with her and that she just happened to get preggo. So before Mary and Joseph, there was Adam and Eve right? Maybe I am just so confused I don't get it. So GOD had Jesus (son of Mary and Joseph) and GOD also created Adam and Eve. So can you tell me PLEASE who were their parents?

Nope, one I am still trying to find out myself. One claim is that Eve was created from Adam's rib, if that were true then she was not born at all, and no explanation has been offered as to Adam's parents that I have ever found.

Also who are the children of Adam and Eve? Kane and Abel (sp)correct? Who did they hook up with? Can you give me and maybe those who are confused and not saying it some idea as to who was related to whom?

Adam and Eve had 3 sons, Cain, Abel and Seth

Cain had a son named Enoch, who also had a son. (Notice all these sons, but somehow there are plenty of women for them to marry, and no mention of any other spontanious births?)

Abel had no children.

Seth and a son named Enos.

Genesis 4

17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch

18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah. ( but no mention of who there parents where or where they came from)
25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.
26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

On the other hand, can you please tell me the names of any OPENLY homosexual couple in the Bible?
Nope Paul speaks of male protestitutes in I Corinthians 6:9-10
ans some speculate that Paul was homosexual, but even I have a hard time trying to find how they pulled that out there @ss. I see nothing to support that claim.

6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor arsenokoite, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

If God (Jesus' father) was so against it, how has it come to be? Why would "someone" who despised (for lack of a better term) it allow us (again a blanket term) in modern times to "be" homosexual? Or is it possible that as others have said there has always been homosexuality (looking for scripture here) and one day, in more modern times, someone decided "Oh yuck" - say during the translation of the King James version- and it was just written in as a bad thing due to the circumstances?

Some believe that the reasoning behind Levicticus was because there was a need to populate the earth , although they seem to be doing fine, even though no one was giving birth to daughters apparently.

Homosexaulity is not called an abomination in the New Testament. Could be that when Jesus fufilled (after he died on the cross and came back) the laws, that he no longer saw it as one, could be an oversite. Not really sure what I think on that one, but I am really curious as to why homosexaulity was no longer referred to as an abomination.

Also, one final question: Have you ever read the book "The Bible Code"?

Nope.

Thanks for any insights you might give!

yw:)

Lasher

11-02-2002, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by missmac69

:eek: OMG LASHER IS A GIRRRL??????? HAHAHA ALL THIS TIME i THOUGHT SHE WAS A HE:rolleyes: SO I GOTTA SAY LASH YOU ARE ONE SMART CHICKA!!!
Oh and just my 2 cents worth here too I think to each their own

Thx, I guess, lol:D

missmac69

11-02-2002, 01:38 AM

You are very welcome sweetie :D especially since you have earned the distinguished title of BigBigsComputerGuru ;) I just can't believe I've thought you were a guy all this time :rolleyes: showing my blondness here lol

chrissypoo

11-02-2002, 03:29 AM

Jeepers creepers........ What a heck of a discussion, eh? LOL

Ok, I look at it this way. First, I'm not here to judge. Second, if two homosexuals stay together for life and commit to each other, so what? No, it won't hurt me one bit. It won't hurt anyone, as a matter of fact. I don't want anyone interfering in my personal life and I'm sure everyone feels the same. No one knows what I do behind closed doors. It's my business, no one else's. If my neighbors next door were of the same sex and were committed, fine. Doesn't bother me one bit.

If the same sex couples do commit, then they should have the benefits. They should also have the same "rules" as divorcees (sp?) if they split up. Things should be divided equally and the lesser earning person should get some sort of support from the other until the lesser earner can get back on their feet.

I do hesitate to use the word "marriage" also. Unfortunately it goes against my grain. Committment is a more sensible term. I would also hestitate to use "husband" and "wife". "Partner for life" is much more agreeable.

If a committed couple wanted to adopt children, fine with me. I admire that. There are sooooo many children that need a loving and stable home. So many heterosexual marriages are not "safe" and stable. So many children are out there that need homes. Now, if children are adopted by homosexual couples, then the child needs to understand why their home is somewhat "different". Different meaning that there's two males or two females raising them as opposed to the "traditional" household.

I don't think religion needs to play a part in this. The Almighty will do whatever when the time comes. This is all so controversial. Let Him decide. We are not capable of making these judgements. If we do judge, then we ourselves are going against Him. We are all sinners.

Therefore, the unity of two homosexuals should stay as a civil ceremony. The word "marriage" signifies a religious ceremony. If the gays are Christian, Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish whatever, it's none of our business. We don't have a right to say EXACTLY what will happen to a gay person when they leave this Earth. Heck, we don't even REALLY know what will happen to US when we leave this Earth. No one can be that sure of themselves.

Ok, it's late for me also and I surely did ramble. Be gentle with me, I'm tired but couldn't let this pass. :o)

patty03

11-02-2002, 01:38 PM

it makes me so sad to read about all the so called people who say they belong to church if they did they would be praying right now not bashing people for how they believe i feel that anybody male or female have the right to love who they want u dont choose who your going to fall in love with it just happens i dont care what sex u are and i also believe they should be allowed to marry and as far as not having children adoption is the answer and they should be allowed to because most people married dont want to adopt if they have there own childre and i think same sex couples would give children more love than anybody would and also who are we to judge the people who are quoting about its an abomination god says they also have a change all sins are forgiven so u people out there judging i hope u pray extra hard tonite because to delibertly hurt someones feelings is a sin and judging is also i just think they have a right to choose to marry if they want and they have a right to all rights men and women married do if they dont then what happened to egual rights for everyone i mean everyone and i would just like to say something to someone who posted lasher u sound like a very nice person wished i could meet u and like u said if u cant love everybody then i feel sorry for bible quoting people on here i belong to the most strict church u can go to but i cant judge and will not because king james version also says they have a chacne we all do thats really all we got god says many are called but few are chosen i would hate to be standing before god on judgement day and he looked at me and said well remember when u bashed those people for being gay well get away from me i knew u not well i could go on forever but i guess i better stop my opionion im all for same sex marriage with or without the so called proper way what it the proper way anyway to all gay people out there godspeed and hold your heads up and be proud -----------uh yeah hi tasha love u

Tasha405

11-02-2002, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by patty03
it makes me so sad to read about all the so called people who say they belong to church if they did they would be praying right now not bashing people for how they believe i feel that anybody male or female have the right to love who they want u dont choose who your going to fall in love with it just happens i dont care what sex u are and i also believe they should be allowed to marry and as far as not having children adoption is the answer and they should be allowed to because most people married dont want to adopt if they have there own childre and i think same sex couples would give children more love than anybody would and also who are we to judge the people who are quoting about its an abomination god says they also have a change all sins are forgiven so u people out there judging i hope u pray extra hard tonite because to delibertly hurt someones feelings is a sin and judging is also i just think they have a right to choose to marry if they want and they have a right to all rights men and women married do if they dont then what happened to egual rights for everyone i mean everyone and i would just like to say something to someone who posted lasher u sound like a very nice person wished i could meet u and like u said if u cant love everybody then i feel sorry for bible quoting people on here i belong to the most strict church u can go to but i cant judge and will not because king james version also says they have a chacne we all do thats really all we got god says many are called but few are chosen i would hate to be standing before god on judgement day and he looked at me and said well remember when u bashed those people for being gay well get away from me i knew u not well i could go on forever but i guess i better stop my opionion im all for same sex marriage with or without the so called proper way what it the proper way anyway to all gay people out there godspeed and hold your heads up and be proud -----------uh yeah hi tasha love u Love you too. {{{hugs}}} :)

denisemm

11-02-2002, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk
Okay, originally I was scared to death to come into this thread because I didn't want to argue. Everyone seems to be okay with each other having different views, and some have similar veiws as mine, and weren't hanged for it.

So here it goes, I will share my views. I will try to be as cut & dry as possible. I so don't want to offend anyone.

#1. I believe that tolerance and acceptance are two different things. I beleive Christians ought to tolerate this to live in a peaceful world, i.e. don't start killing, or abusing homosexuals. I will tolerate, but I will never accept it as right, and will continue to feel sad inside everytime I see a couple like that because I think they are lost souls.

#2. I believe that homosexuality is not the only sin, and that Christians must refrain from stealing, adultry, etc, and earn their way into Heaven too. Homosexuals are not targeted to be the only ones who must gain control of their temptations, and earn their way into Heaven.

It just happens to be their particular crutch. Mine is cigarettes at the moment, which I believe will get me into Hell also, because I also believe that our bodies are to be treated as the temple of God.

#3. I believe today's society confuses youths, as the Bible predicted about how the end of days would be all sinful. They see so many people saying if it feels good - do it type thing.

They are desensitized to sin I believe because they see it everywhere.

#4. I beleive the bumper sticker that says "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven". That is why we can't judge others, but we can know right from wrong for ourselves. We can share Jesus with sinners. We cannot condemn anyone. For we are all sinners. I hope to be forgiven for my smoking, as salvation is the gift for us from out Father.

#5. I believe that no love is greater that the love of God. I believe in the 10 commandments, and think it is a small price to pay for our reward.

#6. I believe that this world is full of fifth, and sin, and I certainly do not want to spend eternity with child molestors, and killers, in the Devil's Hell.

#7. I believe that every pain I have ever suffered has been caused by Satan. I will not allow the one who has caused me so much hurt to win my soul too, as I hate him.

#8. I beleive that every sinner that sins does it NOT BECAUSE they are evil, but because they have fallen prey to the lies of the Devil.

OK, but, as I keep asking, just because it goes against your faith, should same sex marriages not be legal? I know you don't personally agree, but is it fair for them not to be able to have that kind of comitment?

And I think you expressed you beliefs & opinion very well here. I disagree (and that's all I'm gonna say), but you did a very good job of expressing your point of view.

Njean31

11-02-2002, 02:55 PM

I wasn't going to post anymore but i feel i can provide some answers to some of these questions. Homosexuality IS definately mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible: http://equip.org/free/DH055-2.htm

and for cowgirl in tennessee with all the questions, go to http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp.

if it don't take you straight to the Q&A page, look up top in the tabs and click on Q&A, it will be worth it. IT ANSWERS EVERYTHING also including questions like where did Cain and Abel find their wives?

this site answers questions from everything from abortion to dinosaurs to genetics with scripture to back it up.

I hope those links work, i am not good at this.

irrelevant0

11-02-2002, 02:56 PM

there's absolutely nothing wrong with it imo. i have about six guy friends who are gay, and i hope they find someone they want to spend their lives with, just like any "straight" person would.

Lasher

11-02-2002, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by Njean31
I wasn't going to post anymore but i feel i can provide some answers to some of these questions. Homosexuality IS definately mentioned in the New Testament of the Bible: http://equip.org/free/DH055-2.htm

and for cowgirl in tennessee with all the questions, go to http://answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp.

if it don't take you straight to the Q&A page, look up top in the tabs and click on Q&A, it will be worth it. IT ANSWERS EVERYTHING also including questions like where did Cain and Abel find their wives?

this site answers questions from everything from abortion to dinosaurs to genetics with scripture to back it up.

I hope those links work, i am not good at this.

I never said it wasn't mentioned in the New Testment , as a matter of fact I know exactly where it is,I said it is not referred to as an abomination.

Njean31

11-02-2002, 10:43 PM

excuse me Lasher, all of these posts might have got me confused. at any rate, the links may answer some questions for some folks. i know they provided me with a great deal of information and answered some of those hard to answer questions. i'm seeing double, time for bed. goodnight

Princess4J

11-03-2002, 10:50 AM

WOULDN'T YOU (YOU MEANING EVERYONE WHO READS THIS)
WANT FOR A FRIEND,OR A FAMILY MEMBER TO BE
IN A LOVING, SUPPORTIVE, HEALTHY MARRIAGE ??

ONE WHERE THEY ARE HAPPY AND FEEL LOVED ??
NOW WHAT DOES IT MATTER IF ITS WITH
SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX ??

ALL I WANT FOR MY CHILDEN, FRIENDS AND
FAMILY MEMBERS IS TO BE LOVED.

TO MEET THEIR SOULMATE.

WHETHER OR NOT ITS SOMEONE OF THE SAME SEX
THATS THEIR CHOICE, NOT MINE AND NOT FOR ME TO JUDGE.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT WORSE THING TO GO TO HELL
FOR, BUT NOT FOR LOVING ANOTHER PERSON.

REGARDLESS OF THE "GOOD BOOK".

JMHO:)

Princess4J

11-03-2002, 11:07 AM

LETS SAY THERE IS ONLY ROOM
FOR ONE MORE PERSON IN HELL,

THERE STANDS CHARLES MANSON
AND ELTON JOHN ..........

I DON'T BELIEVE SATAN WILL SAY
" WELL CHARLIE, YOU KILLED PEOPLE,
DID DRUGS AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE.

"ELTON YOU HAVE DONE GOOD IN LIFE
EVEN MADE SOME GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS
TO GREAT CHARITIES, BUT YOU'RE GAY.
SO COME WITH ME"

"SEE YA CHARLIE !"

IN MY OPINON THATS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

I BELEIVE MURDER IS THE WORSE SIN.
AGAIN REGARDLESS OF "THE GOOD BOOK".

Princess4J

11-03-2002, 11:36 AM

I'M NOT ATTACKING ANYONE FOR THEIR OPINIONS.
SO NO ONE SHOULD DO THAT TO ME.
THIS IS A GOOD POST. SHAME TO SEE IT BE CLOSED.

I POST IN MANY THREADS.

SOMETIMES PEOPLE JUST SHOULD
AGREE TO DISAGREE.
:)

~MK~

11-03-2002, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

I believe Hell has room for all sinners. I believe the worst sin is child abuse.

But that is just me.

I believe that if you want to know for sure what Satan will do, instead of guessing. I believe the answers are in the Bible.

But that is just me.

I believe you follow me around the forum ever since the Lisa Marie thread, where I asked you to stay out of my posts because you are an instigater that will not behave appropriately, and constantly post anything that would be opposite to whatever I think.

You have been doing this discreetly, a jab here, a jab there. I have ignored you as if you didn't exist. That is what I intend to keep on doing after this post where I let you know that I am aware of what you are doing.

You even created a new Elvis thread after the mods closed the post because you were so starved to stir up trouble you couldn't stop.

I am going to ignore you once again after this post because that drives people like you who feed off of conflict crazier than anything.
I believe you ought to grow up!

But that is just me.

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/copy_2_of_growup2.gif

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/rocketxx.gif

UMMM..where was she attacking you?? All I see is her opinion..

Lasher

11-03-2002, 02:23 PM

I think the "Oh Grow Up" graphic/comment was a tad unnecessary.

Granted I helped get us off track when I was asked the questions about the bible, but still all in all it doesn't matter what you believe the bible says, it has no effect ( or shouldn't under the Separation of Church of State Act of 1966) on the law.

So now that everyone has had a chance to express their opinions, can anyone come up with a legitimate arguement against homosexual marriage that does not involve your religious beliefs?

Thamlet

11-03-2002, 02:34 PM

I'd hate to close this thread because certain Members cant seem to get along. It's been civil enough until now so from here on out either refrain from posting if you are simply going to attack others or please stick to the topic of the thread. No more accusations or snide remarks directed to other Members. Thanks.

Lasher

11-03-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

To continue with my personal opinion, I suppose the biggest thing that disturbs my mind, is the prospect of homosexual couples adopting babies. I feel like it would be very embarrassing for the child at school. I feel like it is unfair the same way it would be unfair to put a tattoo on a baby.

But the only reason they would have this to fear, is if people are raising their children to be prejudice. A child at school will no nothing other than "Tommy" has two mothers or two fathers, they will draw no further conculsions on there own, the rest is taught.

Willow

11-03-2002, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

Lasher, you are right...my graphic was unnecessary. So, to make up for it I will post a new one to help us get on with the dicsussion.

http://www.uselessgraphics.com/chewfat.gif

If you are asking for personal opinions. I understand wanting all of the benefits that married people have. This seems like the humanitarian thing to do, as we all need to be taken care of.

To continue with my personal opinion, I suppose the biggest thing that disturbs my mind, is the prospect of homosexual couples adopting babies. I feel like it would be very embarrassing for the child at school. I feel like it is unfair the same way it would be unfair to put a tattoo on a baby.

I feel this way because this lifestyle is so out there, that one deserves to make an educated decision for oneself whether or not they want to be a part of this culture.

Now for what I think should happen has nothing to do with my opinions, and feelings. Just what is fair as homosexuals under the law, and as citizens of this country.

I see no reason legally why they should be denied anything as long as they follow the laws like everyone else.

Just commenting on your comments. You say that it is unfair for a child to be brought into a homosexual relationship because they should be able to make their own decision on whether or not they wanted to be a part of that. Anyhow, although I don't agree with homosexuality, what about the kids that are abused by their alcoholic father or crack head mother? They weren't given the option to make an educated decision on whether or not they wanted to be a part of that relationship. I would rather see kids in a loving home with two same sex parents than to see them being abused. I think gay couples should be allowed to make a commitment to each other and have some type of a legal document written up in case something was to happen to one of them but to go and be married in a church that just doesn't seem right to me. That is just my opinion.

Lasher

11-03-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by Autumn12843
them but to go and be married in a church that just doesn't seem right to me [/B]

Commitment ceremonies are not held in churches.:)

schsa

11-03-2002, 07:01 PM

You are getting off the subject and bringing in Christianity into a subject that has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity. This is purely a legal matter, nothing more. Don't refer to it as a marriage as it is called by the Christian Churches. It has to do with protecting people's rights. Two people choose to live together. They buy property. They combine their incomes to purchase furniture, take trips, buy cars, etc. Then one day, one of them comes home and says that they want out. What do you do with all of the joint property? Does this become a palimony case? Or do you spend you time in the courts trying to decide who gets what?

Straight or gay it comes down to what laws will determine who gets what. When two people live together for a long period of time, finances intermingle. And it can become very cutthroat as it is with divorced couples to determine what belongs to which person. Having a legal committment whether it is in a committment ceremony or if you are covered by common law, it makes it simpler when one member dies or if the couple breaks up or whatever ends up happeningl.

It has to do with the law not the Bible or Christian beliefs.

voliver6

11-03-2002, 07:04 PM

Ok, this is a real tough one. You think you see it all so clearly, then WHAM! You're presented with even more to think about.

First, I have to say I want to think of myself as a "good Christian". I was raised Southern Baptist--extremely hard to get over all that Hell, Fire and Brimstone screamed at you every Sunday morning, evening and Wednesday nights, too. And lets not forget all the "revivals" and Vacation bible school.

Now when I attend church, I go Methodist-much more soothing.

To me EVERYTHING goes back to God and the bible. I think this is how we all got to "be". So it's very hard for me to separate church and state, school and religion, marriage and "committment ceremonies". To me, God is the beginning and the end.

Second, I believe any "good" Christian would have to have some ambivilance (sp?)about this subject. I know I do, but then again, I may be a little nutty.

1) As a Christian, I can not, in good concience, support same sex marriage and/or legal committment ceremonies-For many of the other reasons listed by many other posters. Unfortunatley, I want to be lazy and let someone else do the voting, because I also can't tell anyone else how to live, either.

2) As a Christian, The WORSE thing I can do is judge someone else, their beliefs, and their way of living.

3) As a mother, See #1

4) As a mother, See #2. This is one of my most important points.

5) I believe people are born the way they are. We do not "choose" what we feel.

6) God loves every one of us. He makes no mistakes. We are what we are. And we are all sinners.

I have struggled all my life with what to beieve when it comes to this subject. Yes, homosexuality may be wrong. But I do ALOT of things wrong. Like these cigarettes, and this caffiene, and even a little alcohol now and then. And yes, there have been a few other things at times. I have even struggled with desire for someone of the same sex before. This may seem strange to some of you, but I think it's fairly mormal. JMHO

But just because I believe in one thing, does it make me less of a parent? Or person? Or less loved by God? No WAY! In the same way that an opposite sex couple can make excellant parents, partners and friends, so can same sex partners.

I do have to be a role model for my children. I teach love, acceptance, tolerance and compassion. One thing I find hard to tolerate is PREJUDICE. This is not welcome in my home. Why would I think for one second that I am better than anyone else? I just "choose" to sin in different ways, that's all.

I can not express in words all that I am feeling--and I most definately am ambivilant about so much of it.

So to answer your question about who it hurts when we vote for same sex marriage:

Well, if you're looking at it ONLY from a religious standpoint, then it hurts all of us.

But speaking from the heart and head, my answer would have to be "NONE OF US."

I SAY LIVE AND LET LIVE, WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

voliver6

11-03-2002, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by baby_froggy_69

Seeing that I'm not religious it's not hurting me in any way, religiously speaking.
2 women or men having a commitment ceremony is definitely not going to hurt anyone in any way.

BABY_FROGGY,

I meant that if the whole thing were looked at from a religious standpoint, as in the whole world coming from God, the world being religious, then it hurts everyone as in a type of "breakdown" in values, etc (I HATE usung that word "breakdown") I realize I'm not very good at explaining my feelings on the topic, and it's really just one odd opinion anyway. I edited that slightly so maybe it would be more understood

I am not a big practicing finatic, nor do I preach to anyone. It was just theoretics, I suppose. Truly, in my heart of hearts, it's just not a black and white issue to me anymore.

I honestly can't say I'm totally FOR or AGAINST it. It's tough to take a stand.

I say, Live and Let Live.

Princess4J

11-04-2002, 08:01 AM

"LIVE AND LET LIVE"

THATS WHAT I BELIEVE TOO.
WHO AM I TO JUDGE SOMEONE ??

IF TWO PEOPLE ARE IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP
REGARLESS OF IF THEY ARE STRAIGHT OR GAY,
THERE SHOULD BE CERTAIN 'THINGS' THEY ARE
INTITLED TOO. HEALTH INSURANCE FOR ONE.

SAY ONE PARTNER HAS GREAT HEALTH INSURANCE BENEFITS
AND THE OTHER CHOSES TO STAY AT HOME, OR DOESN'T
HAVE THESE BENEFITS. IF THEY ARE 'MARRIED' BOTH CAN
RECEIVE THESE BENEFITS.

AFTER SEPT. 11TH THERE WERE GAY PEOPLE WHO
LOST THEIR "LIFE PARTNERS". I BELIEVE THEY ARE
INTITLED TO THE SAME BENEFITS AS THE HUSBANDS AND WIVES
WHO WERE IN ' STRAIGHT' MARRIAGES.

I ALSO BELIEVE GAY COUPLES SHOULD ADOPT
IF THEY WANT CHILDREN. THEY CAN BE GREAT PARENTS TOO.

BTW ......THIS IS MY OPINION.
I HAVE A RIGHT TO EXPRESS IT.

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by denisemm
[BHow does letting a woman marry a woman, or a man marry a man, make a man+woman marriage less protected? This makes absolutely no sense to me at all, and I seriously want to understand why some people think it will hurt them, so I can have an intelligent debate about it.
[/B]

The above is the original question in the first post...

People keep saying don't bring religion into this discussion because it is not applicable. However, our religion governs how we view our life. IF you think that marriage is a holy institution, and that by allowing gays to marry, you are negating the sanctity of marriage...then you will feel that a man/woman marriage is less protected because it will no longer be sanctified in society. Yes...you can say that "I don't view marriage as holy anyway." However, there is a large segment of society that does view it that way. I might even say that there is a majority of society who has those views.

So...if you have a strong Christian faith...religion cannot be taken out of the discussion on why we feel the way we do. Feelings aren't right or wrong...they just are.

That being said...

To me EVERYTHING goes back to God and the bible. I think this is how we all got to "be". So it's very hard for me to separate church and state, school and religion, marriage and "committment ceremonies". To me, God is the beginning and the end.

Second, I believe any "good" Christian would have to have some ambivilance (sp?)about this subject. I know I do, but then again, I may be a little nutty.

1) As a Christian, I can not, in good concience, support same sex marriage and/or legal committment ceremonies-For many of the other reasons listed by many other posters. Unfortunatley, I want to be lazy and let someone else do the voting, because I also can't tell anyone else how to live, either.

2) As a Christian, The WORSE thing I can do is judge someone else, their beliefs, and their way of living.

3) As a mother, See #1

4) As a mother, See #2. This is one of my most important points.

5) I believe people are born the way they are. We do not "choose" what we feel.

6) God loves every one of us. He makes no mistakes. We are what we are. And we are all sinners.

I have struggled all my life with what to beieve when it comes to this subject. Yes, homosexuality may be wrong. But I do ALOT of things wrong. Like these cigarettes, and this caffiene, and even a little alcohol now and then. And yes, there have been a few other things at times. I have even struggled with desire for someone of the same sex before. This may seem strange to some of you, but I think it's fairly mormal. JMHO

But just because I believe in one thing, does it make me less of a parent? Or person? Or less loved by God? No WAY! In the same way that an opposite sex couple can make excellant parents, partners and friends, so can same sex partners.

I do have to be a role model for my children. I teach love, acceptance, tolerance and compassion. One thing I find hard to tolerate is PREJUDICE. This is not welcome in my home. Why would I think for one second that I am better than anyone else? I just "choose" to sin in different ways, that's all.

I can not express in words all that I am feeling--and I most definately am ambivilant about so much of it.

So to answer your question about who it hurts when we vote for same sex marriage:

Well, if you're looking at it ONLY from a religious standpoint, then it hurts all of us.

But speaking from the heart and head, my answer would have to be "NONE OF US."

I SAY LIVE AND LET LIVE, WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

Voliver6 stated my feelings concisely. I AM ambivalent about this subject as I do have many gay friends. There is NOT ONE who would say that they CHOSE this lifestyle.

There is a separation of church/state in this country and gay couples should have the same legal rights as heterosexual couples.

I think I believe that gays should be able to adopt and raise children. As to the effect on the children...some have said that it would be to embarrasing and possibly traumatic to the child to have gay parents. I don't know this for a fact. Are there any children on gay couples on this board who could enlighten us on what it was like growing up with gay parents?

Princess4J

11-04-2002, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

I think I believe that gays should be
able to adopt and raise children. As
to the effect on the children...some
have said that it would be to embarrasing
and possibly traumatic to the child to have
gay parents. I don't know this for a fact.
Are there any children on gay couples on
this board who could enlighten us on
what it was like growing up with gay parents?

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THEIR VIEWS TOO.

THERE ARE MANY STRAIGHT PARENTS WHO ARE MORE EMBRRASING
AND DO MORE TRAUMATIC THINGS TO THEIR KIDS.(DRUGS,
ABUSE ETC)

I DON'T SEE WHY GAY PARENTS ARE HARRASSED MORE.

voliver6

11-04-2002, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

......................

I think I believe that gays should be able to adopt and raise children. As to the effect on the children...some have said that it would be to embarrasing and possibly traumatic to the child to have gay parents. I don't know this for a fact. Are there any children on gay couples on this board who could enlighten us on what it was like growing up with gay parents?

A good and loving set of parents, no matter what their sexual orientation, is all it takes. I know this may sound too cut and dried, but it's also coming from a person who was neglected and abused as a child. An abused child has worse things to hide and be embarrassed of than if they have "2 mommies" or "2 Daddies".

katwoman3

11-04-2002, 09:20 AM

I've seen it said that gay marriages would cause a breakdown in our values and morals. Values and morals begin in our own home, not someone elses.
And as for the sanctity of marriage, a gay couple getting married will not effect that about my marriage. Me and my husband are the only ones who can effect what our marriage is and its sanctity.
What I am trying to say is that we control our lives, we make them into what we want them to be. No one else can do that for you. If someone wants to view their marriage as less because gay couples are getting married, then you are only hurting yourself.
God will judge you by what you have done in your life, not by what someone else has done in their life.

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by voliver6

A good and loving set of parents, no matter what their sexual orientation, is all it takes. I know this may sound too cut and dried, but it's also coming from a person who was neglected and abused as a child. An abused child has worse things to hide and be embarrassed of than if they have "2 mommies" or "2 Daddies".

Oh - I totally agree...I also came from an abused home and think that two loving supportive parents would have been much better. (Luckily I had a wonderful loving mother...)

My point was that people use that argument against gays adopting and raising children.

I personally do know of one couple which were heterosexual...the husband became transgender after 20 years of marriage. They are still together. The teenage children are really struggling with this and one has subsequently gotten into trouble. (And...this could have happened even if the father hadn't become a mother...) I realize that this is an isolated incident and the entire "transgender" issue really makes it difficult. These were children who started out with a "father"...then he became a "she" and now they have two mothers. I also don't believe this situation is indigative of what would happen if two gays adopted a child.

However, my point is that with all my gay friends and colleagues...I don't know of any who have had or adopted children. I was simply wondering how it has worked out for the child(ren) in these cases.

voliver6

11-04-2002, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

Oh - I totally agree...I also came from an abused home and think that two loving supportive parents would have been much better. (Luckily I had a wonderful loving mother...)

My point was that people use that argument against gays adopting and raising children.

I personally do know of one couple which were heterosexual...the husband became transgender after 20 years of marriage. They are still together. The teenage children are really struggling with this and one has subsequently gotten into trouble. (And...this could have happened even if the father hadn't become a mother...) I realize that this is an isolated incident and the entire "transgender" issue really makes it difficult. These were children who started out with a "father"...then he became a "she" and now they have two mothers. I also don't believe this situation is indigative of what would happen if two gays adopted a child.

However, my point is that with all my gay friends and colleagues...I don't know of any who have had or adopted children. I was simply wondering how it has worked out for the child(ren) in these cases.

This is something I would also like to know. However, in some small way, I feel the answer is irrelevant, or that in my heart, I already know the answer to the question. Just as a same sex family may have "special" issues to deal with, so do many of us "straight" families. I still believe it's all in how you parent. Every family has obstacles to deal with--it's HOW you deal with it that counts.

PS Kelsey, I like your views :)

MommyG3

11-04-2002, 10:57 AM

When you are NOT refering to the Bible and Christianity, then I don't know. I mean, seperate church and state. I feel that a marriage is a church issue. Therefore, should the state now NOT recognize heterosexual couples as married. Hmmm. We have to have somekind of ceremony in order to be recognized as a married couple. Personally, I don't really believe that. I do not see anything wrong with someone like Lasher having a commitment ceremony in a place other than a church. As a Christian, I do not believe in homosexuality, but I am trying to stay away from the Christian perspective. As for it hurting someone, I don't see where it does (out of the Christian perspective).

and by the way, I LOVE ALL YOU GUYS!!!

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by katwoman3
Values and morals begin in our own home, not someone elses.

That's an interesting statement because don't you think our values and morals are frequently influenced by what is acceptable in our society.

For example...I grew up in the 60's graduating high school in 1968. I remember when I went to school, no "good" girl would admit to sleeping with her boyfriend outside of marriage. I later found out that several of my girlfriends did indeed sleep with their boyfriends.

In 1970...one of my friends decided to live with her boyfriend. This was so shocking at the time. ONE YEAR LATER...several friends did the same thing and somehow the shock value had lessened.

Here is is 2002...and most American's don't think twice about people living together prior to marriage. It seems to almost the norm. It certainly seems the expectation that sex outside of marriage is standard. Individuals who state their intention to keep their virtue until marriage are frequently viewed as freaks.

Yet...when you go to some other countries...there are different values and morals entirely.

I propose that our values and morals are most definitely shaped by influences outside our home. We don't live in bubbles and we can't keep our children from being exposed to outside influences. (Not that we would necessarily want to...) However, that's why people get concerned when they see shifting tides in acceptable behavior which can possibly effect changes in our culture.

Please note that I'm not passing judgement here. I'm just addressing this one post.

This has been one of the most interesting and thought-provoking threads I've ever read on this board. And, I for one appreciate that it has remained essentially friendly.

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 02:19 PM

I wondered what happened to this thread...disappeared from the OTC forum...but I could find it when I did advanced search.

Lasher

11-04-2002, 02:24 PM

It didn't dissapear it dropped off to the second page.

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Lasher
It didn't dissapear it dropped off to the second page.

But I checked the second page...and the third...LOL!!!

Lasher

11-04-2002, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Kelsey1224

But I checked the second page...and the third...LOL!!!

I saw it on the second page, I had just grown tired of trying to validate my existence to other people so I stopped replying.

Princess4J

11-04-2002, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Lasher

I saw it on the second page, I had just grown tired of trying to validate my existence to other people so I stopped replying.

I BELIEVE GAY PEOPLE
ARE JUST THAT PEOPLE :)

MY WISH FOR EVERYONE
IS THAT THEY FIND HAPPINESS
WITH WHOM EVER THEY CHOOSE.

I STILL DON'T BELIEVE
SOMEONE WILL GO TO HELL, FOR
LOVING ANOTHER PERSON.

I BELIEVE GAY PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE
THE RIGHT TO MARRY. AS SOMEONE SAID
A GAY MARRIAGE WILL IN NO WAY
AFFECT MY MARRIAGE TO MY HUSBAND.

WE LOVE EACH OTHER.
HOW CAN THE WAY SOMEONE ELSE
LIVE THEIR LIFE ( GAY OR STRAIGHT)MINE ??

katwoman3

11-04-2002, 03:33 PM

Values and morals begin in our own homes. If there is a breakdown in values and morals, that too begins in our own homes.
Morals is knowing between right and wrong, and I don't believe there is anyone here who has not done something that they felt was wrong but did it anyways. Are you any less moral for doing it though? Are your values corrupted because you made a mistake?
I guess it is easier to put all the blame on outside influences instead of looking at what we are teaching in our own homes.

Homosexual couples have every right to legally commit to each other.
They love, care, feel and hurt the same way everyone does. They deserve the same rights as everyone else.

:D Lasher

voliver6

11-04-2002, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Lasher

I saw it on the second page, I had just grown tired of trying to validate my existence to other people so I stopped replying.

You should never feel you have to "validate your existence".

But if you want some more validation, I love and admire many of your posts. Sometimes they even make my day. I think you're a very thoughtful and insightful (is that a word, lol?) PERSON. Whatever your sexual orientation. :)

Kelsey1224

11-04-2002, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by voliver6

You should never feel you have to "validate your existence".

But if you want some more validation, I love and admire many of your posts. Sometimes they even make my day. I think you're a very thoughtful and insightful (is that a word, lol?) PERSON. Whatever your sexual orientation. :)

What voliver said...

Plus...I never think about your sexual orientation (just as I'm sure you don't think about mine). You are just another on-line friend that I haven't met in person yet. I truly hope that none of my posts made you feel that way.

Lasher

11-04-2002, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

Secondly, kids in school can be, and ARE cruel. Fat kids, poor kids, ugly kids, stupid kids, shy kids, etc.. all get picked on. That is a given.

IF you bring in circumstances like you have 2 daddies, your daddies kiss each other, you must be a gay too. Hey, tommy, little freedie has a crush on you, he is gay Ouhhhh hahaha.

This is what the adopted child will hear and much worse. So bad I cannot even post it here. I have seen it in the state and school where I grew up, and I have seen it in the school where my kids go too. This is spanning 2 states. These kids get beaten, spit on, verbally abused, constantly harrassed, and have no friends.

All of these things are taught, they did not jump to these conculsions on their own, they heard it from somewhere.
And if people contiune to raise their kids this way it will continue to happen.
I never called another child "fat", "ugly", or anything close, my parents taught me what was important was who that person was, not what they look like or the material possessions they have.
Not everyone's parents did, hence cruel kids who place judgement on other kids.

voliver6

11-04-2002, 07:04 PM

denisemm

11-04-2002, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk
To respond to the comment someone said about not only gay parents would be embarrassing, some parents are abusers, drug dealers etc., or something like that.

Well if parents were anything of the other things that you would consider to be embarrassing to a child, then the child protective services would remove them. So that makes that point invalid.

Secondly, kids in school can be, and ARE cruel. Fat kids, poor kids, ugly kids, stupid kids, shy kids, etc.. all get picked on. That is a given.

IF you bring in circumstances like you have 2 daddies, your daddies kiss each other, you must be a gay too. Hey, tommy, little freedie has a crush on you, he is gay Ouhhhh hahaha.

This is what the adopted child will hear and much worse. So bad I cannot even post it here. I have seen it in the state and school where I grew up, and I have seen it in the school where my kids go too. This is spanning 2 states. These kids get beaten, spit on, verbally abused, constantly harrassed, and have no friends.

I am on the PTA, and my husband's brother is the superintendent of our high school. Nothing is worse than a student to be found out to be gay, or have gay parents. It is a life time of mental abuse to go to school and be presented with hurtful comments until graduation.

I feel to do this to a child who has a chance to be adopted into mom, and dad marriage is cruel. I feel they would be better off left in the orphanage, than to have to deal with such an extreme situation like this. [/B]

Wow, Renee, you really think so? Because I am yet another kid who grew up with druggie parents, and I hid it, and CPS never came, and I was seriously confused as a child because shcool taught me that my parents were gonna die, and I couldn't say anything 'cause they would get in trouble. And I watched then snort stuff & smoke stuff, and how they acted when they did it, and how they acted when they were out, and how they took it out on me & my sister. Would I have rather had 2 emotionally stable moms or dads? Heck yeah. (but hey, what we go through as kids is part of what makes us who we are, and I like who I am now) So, it is a valid point.

As for kids being cruel, well, they will be. If they're not making fon of other kids for wearing glasses or being fat or havng 2 mom's, they will find something else. THat's how kids are. And I agree with lasher here, the kids don't know being fat or wearing glasses si something to make fun of until they learn it. Someone or something (tv) teaches them that. So, if parents were, say, instilling values into their children, then they would not be so bad. Now, I know it doesn't always come from the parents, because I know how my parents were and I NEVER made fun of other kids. If another kid was different (fatter, skinnier, wore glasses, was tall, had only one parent, was poor, etc) I never thought of it as something to make fun of or pick ont hem about. BUt maybe that's because I knew how things really were in my house when no one was looking, so who was I to pick on someone else.

That you think they would be better off in an orphanage... I dont' even know how to respond to that.

Tasha405

11-04-2002, 07:35 PM

If the aids epidemic doesn't chage your mind, and going to Hell doesn't change your mind. If medication doesn't work. Then just please get a room. Thats a little harsh don't ya think

Lasher

11-04-2002, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

If the aids epidemic doesn't chage your mind, and going to Hell doesn't change your mind. If medication doesn't work. Then just please get a room.

Did you miss the earlier post? The one about rude comments?

Lasher

11-04-2002, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk
voliver6 & denisemm

It is unforunate that you were not removed, However to have the law PURPOSELY place kids in drug dealers homes, and child abusers homes is the issue. It would not happen to have a law stating that.

We are talking about a law that states that kids can be placed legally into this homosexual situation.

News flash it is legal for homosexuals to adopt kids, Florida's soon to be revoked law is the onlt one preventing it.

And homosexuality is not a situation it's an orientation.

Lasher

11-04-2002, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

No, I wouldn't go parading around with my husband if front of gay people out of respect. My heterosexuality I am sure disgusts them as well.

I think this for everyone, but of course what I am not into will be more uncomfortable fo rme.

I never make-out in public period, that is a whole nother story.

I think it is disrespectful for anyone to do that. i.e Hardee's, or Wal-mart. Movies, and stuff a bit more tolerable.

What are you talking about?
No one said anything about anyone making out in public, you made a blanketed statement saying all homosexuals are going to hell, then blamed them all for the AIDS epidemic.
Besides the fact those statements where uncalled for, they have aboslutely nothing to do with the topic of the thread.

voliver6

11-04-2002, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by ReneeSisk

Some parents teach respect, some don't. The public school system is a perfect mixture of both.

What happens is that peer pressure usually consumes some of the ones who were taught better. Parents are not in school with their kids, and keeping friends is usually more important than one of the billion other rules taught to them by mom, and dad when they are at school.

Kids are naturally immature, they are not adults, and the matters of importance to kids at school is what their friends think. Even kids who are respectful to kids in every other situation are usually the ones from a Christian home, and their mom and dad tell them how evil homosexuality is, so these kids will not associate with anyone involved in the homosexual culture either.

It is a lose-lose situaion. Only in college when the sexual experimentation, away from parents, mischieviousness, trying to find yourself, and establish yourself as your own person do these young adults (some of them) maybe perhaps make a gay friend just out of sheer morbid curiosity. Trying to see what life is like on the other side of the tracks. A fraction of that group may be easily influenced, insecure, and unsure of who or what they are end up trying the gay thng like their friend, or with their friend.

Some stay in this lifestyle, some don't. Usually after college, the ones who made the gay friend's, and were NOT converted over get married, and have kids of their own. These people who once had the gay friend out of curiousity wouldn't leave their child alone with or introduce that gay person to their family for all the gold in the hills. They are taught how to parent by their parents, and convert back to how they were raised in raising their own kids IF they believe they had good parents.

Some, on the other hand am not impressed with how they were raised, so they do things differently. I realize this is only a portion of society.

Aside from that, I have known 2 diferent people who were molested by a same sex perpetrater, which screwed their mind up. So they thought they were dirty and settled for a gay lifestyle until they recieved counselling, and found Jesus.

I see it all, I work with young girls, and yoiung adult girls. The stories they tell. Also I have kids in school. Middle school, and elementry, and a baby.

Plus, I am a member of the PTA, and my husband's brother is the superintendent of our local high school. I live on the pulse of what goes on, and it is hard enough to grow up in a normal family without all of this extra pressure to have to handle the choices of an adult (a decision the child had nothing to do with) who decided they were to be a homosexual.

I raise my kids to believe this is wrong, and I will not allow any gay children to be around, or influence my kids. They are too young to be thinking about homosexuality, when they are adults then they can make opinions on this. They don't care abou this subject, they just say it is so disgusting to see gay people in public. They go gross, did you se that, ect. I will not correct that, becasue I feel that is the appropriate response because I believe this is wrong.

I would beat their butt's if they ever abused someone for it, but they just like don't care, think it is sick on their own, and would throw a fit, and be uncomfortable if I made them go around that.

I don't like to see it either, it turns my stomach because it is not natural for me, it is like seeing two different species to me. When people tell me they are gay, I am fine. I had a girl who was bi-curious who was pregnant, and I didn't feel funny around her. Then one day her girlfriend showed up and they started kissing proudly right in front of me. I was thinking that gay pride stuff is just to make people throw up or something, because I was really sick to my stomach. I felt that it was way disrespectful of them to make me endure them swopping spit, and I see these parades, and most of the gay people flaunt this lifestyle. It is like that only do it to get attention. Bad attenetion is better than none I guess.

Things like that make me a bit annoyed at gay people. I am like if they want to be treated normal why don't they behave like they have some dignity. I was intrigued by Lasher because she behaves like she has the all that and a bag of chips personality, around the world and 2 snaps attitude. It was refreshing, she doesn't bug me at all. If I ever seen her in the act of messing with a same sex partner, I would probably never speak to her again because It would be the same as seeing someone eat boogers to me. I would not want to be around soemthing that urks me.

If the aids epidemic doesn't chage your mind, and going to Hell doesn't change your mind. If medication doesn't work. Then just please get a room.

You speak as if homosexuality is an automatic ticket to hell. Or that the gay lifestyle is some sort of "cult" that might convert someone who is weak. Am I going to hell if I "experiment"? But arn't there plenty of sins that'll get you there--like cheating, stealing, prejudice, hate, etc... I mean drinking alcohol is a sin in some people's mind, but that doesn't mean it is for everyone. So If I take a drink and my neighbor thinks it's a sin, will I go to hell? Or is that just another person passing judgement on me? So I Chalk it up to perspective, and think about who's perspective it is. Is it someone I respect or is it someone ignorant and full of hate?