Val1

DPunk, I do not know anyone who BOWS to a statue of Mary. We do have kneelers in front of statues of her and of Saint Joseph, when we ask for intercession. We often kneel when we pray, in front of the altar, in front of a cross, in front of our beds at night. My daughters kneel down at the kitchen table when they do prayer before meals!

They are not worshipping the kitchen table.

Did you know that we do not pray TO Mary? We ask her (or any other saint, or any person at all, living or dead) to pray FOR US to GOD. When we kneel in prayer we are not showing obeisance to Mary, but to GOD, the recipient of ALL our prayers!

We are not bowing to her image, nor to her up in heaven, we are kneeling as a sign of respect when praying.

Actually, the Protestant church divided from the Catholic church, not the other way around.

I've not read all your previous discussions with Janelle, but I am happy to try and explain my understanding of our practices with you, DPunk, if you have specific questions.

DtroitPunk

Val1 Thank you for your reasoned attempt to explain some of the practices of the average Catholic.

I admit that I have less than a perfect understanding of what the average catholic really practices and believes.

That being said there are still some difficulties.. I understand what you say about the prayers of the saints and asking for intercession, but there is just no support for this in the bible. No where in the bible are we told to pray to or through anyone but Jesus or God the father. There is no need as the saved are to be in a personal relationship with Jesus, and indwelt bythe spirit. Because of this we can comfortably pray directly to God the father.

And when you read "mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. "

It is referring to any person or organization that trys to teach doctrines contrary to the ones that Jesus taught the apostles. It has nothing to do with the protestants splitting from Catholicism.

I appreciate your interest in actually having an INTELLIGENT thoughtful conversation, without resorting to sarcasm and personal attacks.

DtroitPunk

Val1 I would really like to know by what decree subordinate officials of the church are to bow themselves to and kiss the rings of higher officials? Or by what authority the higher officials of the church believe that this is warranted or appropriate?

I am not trying to be contentious, only to get someone who is actually knowledgeable in Catholicism to help me understand some of the practices that seem to be against The Bible.

Thanks in advance.

DtroitPunk

And by the way to EVERYONE here.

I hope you read my explanation for the link I put on here before, if not please go back and read it.

I REAAAALLY didnt mean to offend anyone, And VAL1 thank you for acknowledgeing my apology.

Val1

Dpunk, all valid questions - I'm about to go for my nightly run then back to clean up the Father's Day Party mess at my house, but rest assured I will be back tomorrow to address your questions, specifically those on intercession - as far as the kissing of the ring, since that is not something most Catholics ever encounter, I will need to do some research on that practice myself.

Val1

DPunk, a brief note on intercessory prayers. We always always direct our prayers TO GOD, however, we also ask others to pray for us, correct? If we need only to address God ourselves, why would we ever ask others to pray for us? They are unneeded mediators, right?

No! We ask because we appreciate others also placing our petitions and requests and prayers before God.

42:10. The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.


There is Biblical precedence for the angels praying for us:
"And the angel of the Lord answered, and said: O Lord of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem . . . and the Lord answered the angel . . . good words, comfortable words" (Zechariah 1:12, 13). and

"the angel Raphael says: "When thou didst pray with tears . . . I offered thy prayer to the Lord" (Tob., xii, 12)

We also have mention of the saints praying for us in Revelations:
"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel" (Revelation 8:3-4).

If we know that God listens to the prayers of our friends, of the angels, the saints, etc., why should we not ask them to pray for us? Yes, we may also pray directly to God or through Jesus, but given the Biblical examples above, there is certainly evidence of the Lord hearing the prayers of intercessories on our behalf.

Will come back to address your other points later today!

LI Mama

We bow to our officals as a sign of respect. Much like people in Asian cultures bow to one another. They aren't worshipping each other, it's merely considered respectful.

Val1

Yes, much like people bowing to the queen because she is the head of state (AND the earthly leader of the Anglican Church), people kiss the pope's ring as a sign of respect. BTW, you do not have to do this if you meet the Pope, Catholics do it as a sign of respect, not of subjugation or worship.

The Fisherman's Ring is a symbol of his office - in olden times it was his SEAL used to imprint in wax on church documents and correspondence, much as a king used to do in medieval times. but it ceased being used for that purpose in the 19th century. An actual seal is now used, but the ring, as part of the tradition, is still given to the incoming Pope as part of his office just as another symbol of his leadership role in the church.

It is not a church mandate or part of our "worship" service that one must kiss the Pope's ring.

ahippiechic

I don't know a lot about the Catholic faith, but I was always under the impression that the bowing, or kneeling was out of respect, not worship.

As I mentioned in another thread here, I am christian, but we do celebrate nature and the seasons and when I kneel before the alter in my home, and pray, I am praying to God, the Great Father, not the leaves, branches etc that may be on the alter. There is a big difference in celebrating or showing respect for something and in worshipping it.

Also, is there some where online that I can read those books of the The New American Bible, that aren't included in the KJV? I have read them before, but it's been several years.

Val1

Ahippiechic, you can find the complete NAB here:
http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/

ahippiechic

Thank you.