janelle

AND TWISTED FACTS ARE TWISTED FACTS.

Val1

Dpunk, I will be happy to argue points of religion with you. However, I clicked on your link and was disgusted to find such blatantly offensive anti-Catholic cartoons and slogans.

Do you seriously expect people of another faith to patronize a website that derides, mocks, and libels their faith beliefs? Can you not find a website that at least attempts to speak respectfully to and about those who have theological differences with your beliefs?

If I directed you to a site that said, "Jesus Christ is a CLOWN and his followers are all licentious, greedy, imbecilic morons! Come HERE to find the true religion!" would you enter that site with even a smattering of respect for their "presentation"? Or would you immediately think, obviously, this site knows nothing about my religion or my beliefs?

Please feel free to bring any facts or points that you would like to respectfully debate HERE. I believe most of us are not going to in any way patronize or give the slightest credence to a site that promotes its faith by slandering ours.

And i must say that the use of phrases like:

"Roman Catholic "Celibate" Priesthood is Full of Whoremongers!

"

and

"The Antichrist Slideshow

Starring: The Popes of Rome

and

The Great Whore of Revelation Chapter 17
The Roman Catholic Religion"



is not going to bring any Catholics to the table of rational discussion with you. You may indeed feel that you have incontrovertible facts about our faith that you wish to enlighten us on, but when you begin a discussion (or a website) with cartoons like the following:



people are going to close their hearts and ears to whatever you have to say because you are not beginning a dialogue with an attempt to show any kind of understanding or common ground, you are beginning by throwing insults. Great way to convert others to your way of thinking - NOT!

Val1

Or let me put it to you another way, DPunk. If I were to begin a conversation with YOU by calling you a WHORE before we ever got to a discussion of what it was I wanted to say, would you have interest in respectfully continuing to speak to me? Or would you think, "I cannot believe that person is referring to me so disrespectfully. Obviously, she thinks it is fine to belittle me and show me no common courtesy whatsoever, so I don't think I'll be continuing this conversation."

It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say.

DtroitPunk

WHOA! First allow me to apologize. I did not search out all that was on this site, I had done a google search and started on

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/statues.htm

This page is very thoughtfully written and I couldnt help but agree. This is what I meant about facts are facts. There are clearly points where the Catholic teachings through the Catechism are not in line with the Holy Scriptures. This page did a good job of showing that.


I then clicked on back to the Catechism vs the bible and saw what I assumed would be other thoughtfully written comparisons. And in fact I was right. I did not click on the home page.

I am VERY VERY SORRY. I would never have linked anyone to a site that I knew preached such horrible intolerance. That is not the way to show people the truth according to the bible.


That being said THE FACTS ARE STILL THE FACTS. The pages on the site I was referring people too clearly lay out the teachings of the Catechism and where and why they are in opposition to the Holy Bible.


These are not twisted facts, however these people DO HAVE an unworthy agenda and are pressing it in a horrible, manner.

I am Very sorry, I truly had no idea that the people associated with this site had such ill feelings toward Catholicism. I personally absolutely do not agree with Catholicism, buddhism, ISlam, The witnesses etc etc but I DO NOT have HATE for any of these people. I wish their souls an eternity in heaven.

Once again I am sorry.

DtroitPunk

Dear VAL who said "It never ceases to amaze me that people use rude, obnoxious and inflammatory verbiage instead of respectful factual debate and then expect their targets to embrace what they have to say."

If you read my posts I believe you will see a person who wants to engender honest intellectual debate in order to lead people to follow the truths of the bible uncolored by tradition or outward literary influence. I have never intended to be abusive as that will not get me any further in a debate.


And VAl, I believe if you read my other posts you will see that I have posted INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence over and over again. People either ignore what I say, refuse to believe what I say or twist what I say. I use the bible to back up all of my debates on faith. But many here will not here an argument based on the bible because they dont read the bible. Others say that the bible isnt meant to be taken literally. Then you have those who say that you or I cant know the mysteries of the bible and need people smarter or better or more holy than we are to lead us to the truths in the gospel. This is really scary thinking as we have seen more than enough evidence all through history from the crusades til now that a priest isnt on average any more Holy or right with God than anyone else. In fact if you take any other category of employ and compare the statistics of say plumbers or basketball coaches and priests who abuse you see a disturbing pattern. I believe, and I believe the Bible shows that this is because they are forbidden to marry.


I have said numerous times on this thread that there are some who want to believe in things so badly that no evidence from any quarter will ever be enough to sway them from their belief.

This is not the conduct of a reasonable, intelligent person. This is not an accusation toward any one person here. If for example someone came along and told me that Jesus Christ never existed and so therefore the bible was all a joke. I would not get angry. I KNOW THAT THE BIBLE IS REAL. It is the only religious book in history that has been proven accurate numerous times through research and science. They have proven that cities talked about in the bible were real that certain persons were king during certain times etc etc. Archaeology has been particularly helpful in this regard. Then the dead sea scrolls also were very helpful in establishing the validity of the bible to a much further date in the past. No other book has been translated by man so many times, so faithfully.

That being said, IF someone ever could prove to me incontrovertibly that for example the King James Bible had been changed by the will of the King and did not translate from the dead sea scrolls, I would have a crisis of faith. My faith is nothing if I cannot believe that God has preserved his word.

DtroitPunk

Does anyone here have a link to an actual Catholic site where I can compare what the Catechism says as compared to the Bible?

Someone may have given me that before, I cant remember.

I feel horrible about that site I linked you guys too. But I do want to verify if the quotes from the Catechism are accurate.

DtroitPunk

This is what Janelle posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DtroitPunk
Janelle, I will say this as well, just because a web site has material that you find scandalous or hateful, doesnt mean it contains no truth.

Once again you resort to a straw man argument. This site is apparently hateful towards Catholicism, it has an agenda. So by association we cannot believe nor should we evaluate any of the claims or statements made.

The reason I liked this site was it actually takes parts of the Cathehism (which you and your husband kept directing me to study) and did a comparison.

Not liking what you read or even abhoring the reason a book or statement was wriiten, DOES NOT change the truth or falsity of the conclusions come to. Facts are facts.

AND TWISTED FACTS ARE TWISTED FACTS.

At the time that I wrote this I had no idea that the site that I had linked had such horrible things on it.

Once again I am sorry. That being said, unless they have erroneously quoted the Cathecism; there seem to be numerous places where the Catechism and the Bible dont line up.

So once again facts are facts. If the Quotes are all accurate then there has been no twisting. Just a side by side comparison.

kate

DP, it's all comes down to interpretation. When I read my bible and when I look to the catechism I don't see that they dont' line up. Remember, as I stated I've been down the fundamentalist, literalist path. I don't see the things that you see or that that site see. I see it differently. I read the Bible differently. I see that it says different things than it does for you.

The thing is NEITHER of us know if the other's understanding is correct. What we do know is that our path is the one we've been led down. Some day we'll know what the TRUTH is. Until then I'm comfortable with my beliefs. I'm comfortable with the feeling that I think they are correct. I'm comfortable reading the Bible and seeing what the Church Father's saw. I'm comfortable looking to the Catechism when I am unsure about something.

I took things and broke them down some posts back. I won't be attacking each part of that site idea by idea because it frustrates me to a point where I don't feel I'm being a good follower of Christ. You are more than welcome to feel I'm misguided but I don't need your answers. I have found my own with God's help.

DtroitPunk

Kate I totally understand how you feel.
you said"DP, it's all comes down to interpretation. When I read my bible and when I look to the catechism I don't see that they dont' line up."

The point is when the Bible says Bow yourself down to NO images, Or I am the way the truth and the Life and no man comes unto the father but by me, or any other of hundreds of examples I could give you, The bible OFTEN and usually says exactly what it means and is not given to private interpretation. We are told not to try to interpret the bible but to READ It and live it. Everyone interpreting it the way they feel comfortable is what has caused all the division amongst Christians and the main reason that there are so many different denominations.

There are things in the bible that I dont agree with entirely, but when that happens I acknowledge that I am the Creation and The Creator undoubtedly knows better than I.

DtroitPunk

OK, firstly I think Mother Theresa was a wonderful human being who believed greatly in giving of herself and helping folks. That being said I have NEVER seen where her or others like her were converting souls to Christ or leading groups in prayers of repentance. Prayers for the dying or the dead, are nice but pointless. The soul must be prepared by the blood of Christ by that persons willfull decision to follow the Lord and accept his redemption of them.

I understand your feelings about sharing faith, however it is a bit of a copout. The bible says over and over again to share your faith. If you wait for a sinner to come to you, most of the time you die waiting. From my own experience I know that often people who dont seem to want to know God, are really just waiting to find someone who can answer their questions. If a person doesnt want to hear you dont push.

DtroitPunk

The bible has loads of verses telling us to preach the word

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Some people will NEVER visit a church. Some people CANNOT visit a Church.


I cannot remember where I heard or read this but I think it is very powerful.

If you see a blind man walking towards a cliff and you do nothing to prevent him, you are guilty of his blood. If you warn him and he wont listen, you are free from your obligation. But if you do not tell him and he plunges to his death and goes to hell because noone ever shared Gods plan of Salvation with him, it is your fault.