Scholars criticize new Jesus documentary by James Cameron

[Jolie Rouge]

Scholars criticize new Jesus documentary
By MARSHALL THOMPSON, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 56 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - Archaeologists and clergymen in the Holy Land derided claims in a new documentary produced by James Cameron that contradict major Christian tenets, but the Oscar-winning director said the evidence was based on sound statistics.

"The Lost Tomb of Jesus," which the Discovery Channel will run on March 4, argues that 10 ancient ossuaries — small caskets used to store bones — discovered in a suburb of Jerusalem in 1980 may have contained the bones of Jesus and his family, according to a press release issued by the Discovery Channel.

One of the caskets even bears the title, "Judah, son of Jesus," hinting that Jesus may have had a son, according to the documentary. And the very fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven.

Cameron told NBC'S "Today" show that statisticians found "in the range of a couple of million to one in favor of it being them." Simcha Jacobovici, the Toronto filmmaker who directed the documentary, said the implications "are huge."

"But they're not necessarily the implications people think they are. For example, some believers are going to say, well this challenges the resurrection. I don't know why, if Jesus rose from one tomb, he couldn't have risen from the other tomb," Jacobovici told "Today."

Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.

In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television. "They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.

Cameron said his critics should withhold comment until they see his film. "I'm not a theologist. I'm not an archaeologist. I'm a documentary film maker," he said.

The film's claims, however, have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land. "The historical, religious and archaeological evidence show that the place where Christ was buried is the Church of the Resurrection," said Attallah Hana, a Greek Orthodox clergyman in Jerusalem. The documentary, he said, "contradicts the religious principles and the historic and spiritual principles that we hold tightly to."

Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight. "I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."

"How possible is it?" Pfann said. "On a scale of one through 10 — 10 being completely possible — it's probably a one, maybe a one and a half."

Pfann is even unsure that the name "Jesus" on the caskets was read correctly. He thinks it's more likely the name "Hanun." Ancient Semitic script is notoriously difficult to decipher.

Kloner also said the filmmakers' assertions are false. "It was an ordinary middle-class Jerusalem burial cave," Kloner said. "The names on the caskets are the most common names found among Jews at the time."

Archaeologists also balk at the filmmaker's claim that the James Ossuary — the center of a famous antiquities fraud in Israel — might have originated from the same cave. In 2005, Israel charged five suspects with forgery in connection with the infamous bone box. "I don't think the James Ossuary came from the same cave," said Dan Bahat, an archaeologist at Bar-Ilan University. "If it were found there, the man who made the forgery would have taken something better. He would have taken Jesus."

None of the experts interviewed by The Associated Press had seen the whole documentary.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070226/ap_en_mo/jesus_s_burial;_ylt=AjiDCdh.m6OrX7DIrQ5w29ys0NUE

____

On the Web: http://www.discovery.com/tomb

[Jolie Rouge]

Documentary shows possible Jesus tomb
By KAREN MATTHEWS, Associated Press Writer
16 minutes ago

NEW YORK - Filmmakers and researchers on Monday unveiled two ancient stone boxes they said may have once contained the remains of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, but several scholars derided the claims made in a new documentary as unfounded and contradictory to basic Christian beliefs.

"The Lost Tomb of Jesus," produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron and scheduled to air March 4 on the Discovery Channel, argues that 10 small caskets, called ossuaries, discovered in 1980 in a Jerusalem suburb may have held the bones of Jesus and his family.

One of the caskets even bears the title, "Judah, son of Jesus," hinting that Jesus may have had a son, according to the film. The claim that Jesus even had an ossuary contradicts the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven.

A panel of scholars that joined the filmmakers Monday at the New York Public Library addressed that criticism and others.

James Tabor, a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, said that while literal interpreters of the Bible say Jesus' physical body rose from the dead, "one might affirm resurrection in a more spiritual way in which the husk of the body is left behind."

But Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, said Christianity "has always understood the physical resurrection of Christ to be at the very center of the faith."

Cameron, who won an Academy Award for directing "Titanic," said he was excited to be associated with the Jesus film, which was directed by Toronto filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici. "We don't have any physical record of Jesus' existence," he said. "So what this film ... shows is for the first time tangible, physical, archaeological and in some cases forensic evidence."

He said that to a layman's eye "it seemed pretty darn compelling."

Jacobovici said that a name on one of the ossuaries — "Mariamene" — offers evidence that the tomb is that of Jesus and his family. In early Christian texts, "Mariamene" is the name of Mary Magdalene, he said.

Most Christians believe Jesus' body spent three days at the site of the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem's Old City. The burial site identified in Cameron's documentary is in a southern Jerusalem neighborhood nowhere near the church.

In 1996, when the British Broadcasting Corp. aired a short documentary on the same subject, archaeologists challenged the claims. Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television. "They just want to get money for it," Kloner said.

The film's claims have raised the ire of Christian leaders in the Holy Land.

Stephen Pfann, a biblical scholar at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem who was interviewed in the documentary, said the film's hypothesis holds little weight. "I don't think that Christians are going to buy into this," Pfann said. "But skeptics, in general, would like to see something that pokes holes into the story that so many people hold dear."

Jacobovici said the ossuaries did not initially seem extraordinary because the names on them were all common. But the filmmakers had statisticians calculate the likelihood that any other family in first-century Jerusalem would have had that cluster of names. "The numbers range from 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000 that there is some other family," said Andrey Feuerverger, a professor of mathematics at the University of Toronto.

Osnat Goaz, a spokeswoman for the Israeli government agency responsible for archaeology, said the Antiquities Authority agreed to send two ossuaries to New York, where they were displayed at Monday's news conference, "but it doesn't mean that we agree with" the filmmakers.

The ossuaries do not contain any bones. The bones were reburied after their discovery, as is standard practice with archaeological finds in Israel.

But Jacobovici said DNA evidence can nonetheless be collected from the boxes. He said DNA analysis has so far proved that Jesus and Mariamene, the putative Mary Magdalene, were not siblings and therefore could have been husband and wife.

___

Associated Press Writer Marshall Thompson contributed to this report from Jerusalem and AP Religion Writer Rachel Zoll contributed from New York.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070227/ap_on_re_us/jesus_s_burial;_ylt=AsVFi67qHIR5RzJ3Be6M7BOs0NUE
___

On the Net:

Discovery Channel: http://www.discovery.com/tomb



... the filmmakers had statisticians calculate the likelihood that any other family in first-century Jerusalem would have had that cluster of names. "The numbers range from 1 in 100 to 1 in 1,000 that there is some other family," ...

my husband's family name is not uncommon here - but the spelling is. There is another family in a nearby city that has four children - the same names as three of his siblings ( first and middle ) and the fourth is close ( Cheryl/Sharon ). There is no relation between the two families.
What are the odds of that ?

[Ravenamore]

Here's one that's better. Supposedly, they used "DNA tests" to verify who's in the graves. An editorial in the New York Post asked the question that came to my mind also:

"For example, the filmmakers use DNA tests to build their case - but whose DNA is being compared with whose? Did they swab the Holy Ghost?"

About the only way I could conceivably think they could have DNA to compare would be something off the Shroud of Turin. And I really doubt these idiots are going to have access to it.

The editorial also pointed out something to think about. People are going to get mad about this obvious garbage. But nothing bad is going to happen to the "archaeologist" or to James Cameron.

Now, what if they had done something similar about Mohammed? Remember all the flak about the political cartoon?

If you want to read the editorial, here it is: http://www.nypost.com/seven/02272007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_safe_faith_to_insult_opedcolumnists_mark_goldb latt.htm

Ravenamore

[Jolie Rouge]

Here's one that's better. Supposedly, they used "DNA tests" to verify who's in the graves.


But Jacobovici said DNA evidence can nonetheless be collected from the boxes. He said DNA analysis has so far proved that Jesus and Mariamene, the putative Mary Magdalene, were not siblings and therefore could have been husband and wife.

They used the DNA in the boxes - no one to compare it to. Since they are not brother and sister they clearly HAVE to be a married couple who CLEARLY are Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene. :rolleyes: The guys on CSI Miami could do a better job than this ....

[YNKYH8R]

Man...you guys sure hate having your faiths challenged don't you? While I agree with the whole "whose DNA are they comparing this too" notion; everyone is soooo quick to say this is a bunch of crock. Where's that famous open minded Christian?

[Jolie Rouge]

Tomb could be of Jesus, wife and son: directors
Mon Feb 26, 12:04 PM ET

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The burial site of Jesus has been found and suggests he had a wife and son, according to highly sensitive claims in a documentary by "Titanic" director James Cameron and Israel-born Simcha Jacobovici.

The claims inject controversy into the issue of resurrection central to Christianity and, if accurate, could reignite questions about Jesus' earthy family life popularized in the book "The Da Vinci Code."

Cameron and Jacobovici, an award-winning documentary director, said their research suggested Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had a son, Judah. "DNA analysis conducted at one of the world's foremost molecular genetics laboratories, as well as studies by leading scholars, suggest a 2,000-year-old Jerusalem tomb could have once held the remains of Jesus of Nazareth and his family," a statement from Discovery, which will broadcast the documentary, said.

The tomb was located in Talpiot, Jerusalem, March 28, 1980 by a construction crew developing an apartment complex.

Scholar L.Y. Rahmani later published "A Catalogue of Jewish Ossuaries" that described 10 ossuaries, or limestone bone boxes, found in the tomb, the Discovery statement said.

Five of the 10 discovered boxes in the Talpiot tomb were inscribed with names believed to be associated with key figures in the New Testament: Jesus, Mary, Matthew, Joseph and Mary Magdalene. A sixth inscription, written in Aramaic, translates to "Judah Son of Jesus."

"Such tombs are very typical for that region," Aaron Brody, associate professor of Bible and archaeology at the Pacific School of Religion and director of California's Bade Museum, told Discovery News.

In addition to the "Judah son of Jesus" inscription, which is written in Aramaic on one of the ossuaries, another limestone burial box is labeled in Aramaic with "Jesus Son of Joseph." Another bears the Hebrew inscription "Maria," a Latin version of "Miriam," or, in English, "Mary."

Yet another ossuary inscription, written in Hebrew, reads "Matia," the original Hebrew word for "Matthew." Only one of the inscriptions is written in Greek. It reads, "Mariamene e Mara," which can be translated as, "Mary known as the master," the television network said.

Jacobovici, director, producer and writer of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus," and his team obtained two sets of samples from the ossuaries for DNA and chemical analysis. The first set consisted of bits of matter taken from the "Jesus Son of Joseph" and "Mariamene e Mara" ossuaries. The second set consisted of patina, a chemical film encrustation on one of the limestone boxes.

The human remains were analyzed by Carney Matheson, a scientist at the Paleo-DNA Laboratory at Lakehead University in Ontario, Canada. Mitochondrial DNA examination determined the individual in the Jesus ossuary and the person in the ossuary linked to Mary Magdalene were not related.

Since tombs normally contain either blood relations or spouses, Jacobovici and his team suggest Jesus and Mary Magdalene could have been a couple. "Judah," whom they indicate may have been their son, could have been the "lad" described in the Gospel of John as sleeping in Jesus' lap at the Last Supper, they argue in their documentary.

Israeli archaeologist and professor Amos Kloner, who documented the tomb as the Jewish burial cave of a well-off family more than 10 years ago, is adamant there is no evidence to support claims that it was the burial site of Jesus. "I'm a scholar. I do scholarly work which has nothing to do with documentary film-making. There's no way to take a religious story and to turn it into something scientific," he told AFP in a telephone interview.

"I still insist that it is a regular burial chamber from the 1st century BC," Kloner said, adding that the names were a coincidence. "Who says that 'Maria' is Magdalena and 'Judah' is the son of Jesus? It cannot be proved. These are very popular and common names from the 1st century BC," said the academic at Israel's Bar Ilan University.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070226/ts_alt_afp/usisraelreligionchristianityarchaeologyfilm;_ylt=A vKRBrCjWKZMoMB6fgtPaiSs0NUE

[Jolie Rouge]

Man...you guys sure hate having your faiths challenged don't you? While I agree with the whole "whose DNA are they comparing this too" notion; everyone is soooo quick to say this is a bunch of crock. Where's that famous open minded Christian?

Having an open mind does not mean believing everything you hear.

Their "evidence" is a collection of common names and the DNA showing that two of the five people buried there were not siblings. How far apart were the deaths spaced ? What dna relationships are found between the other remains ? They haven't "proven" anything ... just guesses and assumptions.

I don't think it matters if Jesus was married and had children - he was sent to be a human being; having a family is part of the human condition, not a flaw.

[hblueeyes]

This just affirms my beliefs like when they discovered the Dead Sea Schrolls.
First the names are not common. Mary Magdelin was not known as such during her time. DNA shows that the remains are of a child related to the other 2 remains which are not related. So Jesus' body remained while he ascended to the heavens. of course. Remember thru God all things are possible. The bible says that after death and we are made whole. When his spirit left his body, it infused with the linen and gave us the Shroud of Turin. Jesus saw his mother and did not allow her to touch him as he had not yet gone to his father but she still saw him and reported back to the deciples that he looked the same and no different than any of them. This is not the first time a dead person has been reported to be like everyone else, even eating, carrying things etc., then the living person finds out that the other had been dead for quite sometime. Also there are many so called lesser books of the bible that the church deems unworthy to be included in the bible as we know it, so what information lies in them that can also substansiate or explain this is unknown.

This will also, I believe, show that Jesus was married and that Mary was the chalis that some seek as is shown in DeVincis Last Supper. remember priests used to be able to marry and have children. the church stopped it because of the costs involved in supporting the families.

I cannot wait for the airing March 4th. I am sure it will be very interesting.

The key to this is FAITH. Believeing in something when everything else says it is not so.

Me:p

[YNKYH8R]

Having an open mind does not mean believing everything you hear.

Their "evidence" is a collection of common names and the DNA showing that two of the five people buried there were not siblings. How far apart were the deaths spaced ? What dna relationships are found between the other remains ? They haven't "proven" anything ... just guesses and assumptions.

I don't think it matters if Jesus was married and had children - he was sent to be a human being; having a family is part of the human condition, not a flaw.I agree with you on these two points (as I previously stated) although I'm not asking you to believe everything you hear; just keep an open mind. Not enough people think outside the Bible.

[tngirl]

I am looking forward to watching the documentary. As for thinking "outside" the Bible, why should we? The Bible is a historic document that has been proven time and again to be correct. So, if it is a historical document given to us by God, who are we to question its validity? I agree with the fact that since it was written by men and the fact that it has been translated by men, there could be some errors. But, I don't believe that those errors would be so major as to negate Christianity and its foundations.

The difference between this documentary and The Di Vinci Code, DVC was a work of fiction and this is a documentary done by a reputable film maker based on what he believes to be facts. Now we have the choice to take these "facts" at face value or question whether they are true or not. But, as pointed out, when they took Jame's box out of the tomb, why would they not have taken that of Jesus?

[Jolie Rouge]

I agree with you on these two points (as I previously stated) although I'm not asking you to believe everything you hear; just keep an open mind. Not enough people think outside the Bible.

I would have the same sense of skeptism if they were claiming it was the tomb of King Arthur with the same "facts" as the basis ....

[YNKYH8R]

So, if it is a historical document given to us by God, who are we to question its validity? Because it could be wrong.:eek: The key word is "if". The Bible isn't infallible. If you read a book and then came across information that negates it's validity do you still hold stock in just becasue it's your favorite book?
Being able to look or think outside the "box" or "Bible" is good. Not enough people do it. A lot of "Christians" refuse to entertain any other idea outside of thier belief structure. Ooooooooo!:rolleyes: Hevean help us if something we believe to be real is in fact a little of the mark. Like the world would come to an end come crashing down around your ears.:p

[tngirl]

I am looking forward to watching the documentary. As for thinking "outside" the Bible, why should we? The Bible is a historic document that has been proven time and again to be correct. So, if it is a historical document given to us by God, who are we to question its validity? I agree with the fact that since it was written by men and the fact that it has been translated by men, there could be some errors. But, I don't believe that those errors would be so major as to negate Christianity and its foundations.


I like how you picked out the one time I used the word if. By you taking it out of context you changed the meaning. This is how "errors" occur. So, considering that I actually said the the Bible IS a historical document, your response to my statement is not valid. Try reading everything sometimes, you might learn something and not have anything to argue about. And I have been accused of blasphemy due to my questioning of my faith (not here on this forum), but those questions only help me to have a stronger faith and make Christianity more understandable for me.

[Jolie Rouge]

b]The Jesus Tomb: Primeval Stupidity[/b]
Robert Eisenman
Tue Feb 27, 9:11 PM ET

The latest 'discovery' of the so-called "Jesus Tomb" or "Jesus Cave" is so preposterous that it has to be laughed out of court.

For starters one must say that one must be glad that ossuaries of this kind in Israel are finally getting the publicity they deserve and that sites in which they occur will, as a result, finally be open to and become visited by the public. They are so rich and beautiful that they demonstrate what a richly beautiful life was being led in Eretz-Israel or "The Holy Land" at the time before - as D.H. Lawrence might have put it as he did the Etruscans - the Romans crushed the breath or spark of life out of it

First of all, all these names -- which are mostly "Maccabean," primarily demonstrating the popularity of the Maccabean family in Israel at the time and not what our intrepid 'archaeologists' seem to think they demonstrate -- found in the "Jesus Burial Cave" on the outskirts of Jerusalem (as many have now already said) were so widespread at the time that finding a family tomb with ossuaries inscribed with them proves nothing at all.

But even more to the point:

1) To think that an inscription seemingly bearing the name of one "Mariamne" has anything whatever to do with some character we think was called "Mary Magdalene" (only mentioned about three times in the Gospels and this cursorily or in passing) is a stretch of immense proportions. All "Mary"s in Josephus are called "Mariamne" in Greek. First disinformation. And what of this "Mary"'s other descendant all Gnostic Gospel enthusiasts and those wishing for the eternal feminine (to say nothing of "the bloodline of the Holy Grail" ) fantasize over, "Sarah"?

2) Then, of course, "Jesus"' father (if he existed or there was one) probably wasn't even called "Joseph" ( really the patronymical tribal name of the Samaritan Messiah). Most contemporary texts give Jesus' father or Mary's husband as "Clopas" or 'Cleophas". Even the Gospel of John does this, unless this was her second husband or there were two "Mary"s or three!

3) And what was "Matthew" (diminutive or otherwise) doing in this tomb - a "statistical" outlier, no? And "Mary"'s DNA didn't match "Jesus"', so they were married, right?

4) And "Jose" was Jesus' brother, right? Why not father - meaning,the one mentioned on the alleged "Jesus ossuary"? And what is Jose's DNA, since we seem to have "Jesus"' and "Mary"'s, or weren't we able to get a sample?

5) And who is this mysterious "Judas"? Of course, "Mary's child" by "Jesus" - why didn't I think of that? Again, another 'statistical outlier". And what were the results of his DNA if they were taken? Did we get a fix on this? Who was his mother?

6) Oh yes, and I forgot, "the James ossuary" was pilfered from here. Why of course. How sensible. And therefore, it wasn't forged (or was it from the Antiquities Authority's storeroom) - again, why didn't I think of that?

"Though I am no statistician" (sic - as they say), I would say that the statistical probability of this kind of primeval stupidity is about 666,000 to one.

Still, let's not take one's eye off the ball - the fact of a cave with such beautiful ossuaries is interesting in itself and should be examined for and by itself and not just sealed or stored somewhere out of sight. Hoorah, that it will now become part of the tourist itinerary. One plus from this sorry charade and display of historical ignorance anyhow! How beautiful and comely was thy daughter, O Children of Zion.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20070228/cm_huffpost/042235;_ylt=AjOf70kFOw5ztDX7XIAl11n9wxIF



SCIENCE SAYS ... BURY JESUS
Tue Feb 27, 6:23 PM ET

Oh goody, another lovely round of that increasingly popular parlor game, "Science Says." And just in time for Lent! James Cameron, the masterful storyteller who directed "Titantic," is clearly banking on the special media power this game has when someone (preferably a scientist, but a Hollywood director in a pinch will do) asserts that what science says ... is that the Bible is wrong.

Science vs. religion, round 457!

Science says Jesus married Mary Magdelene, produced a son named Judah, and the whole family of Nazarenes is buried in a tomb in Jerusalem. We have the mitochondrial DNA and the Discovery Channel documentary to prove it!

When science and "The Da Vinci Code" start saying the same thing, you have a marketing powerhouse. Especially when Christians, bless 'em, can be counted on to rise up in futile indignation, which public display of emotion just feeds so beautifully into the original storyline: Intellectually challenged religious zealots feebly dispute what science says. POW! BAM!

"It's going to get a lot of Christians with their knickers in a knot unnecessarily," Ben Witherington, a Bible scholar at Ashbury Theological Seminary, told The New York Times. Because who but conservative Christians, bless 'em, still wear knickers, much less knot them in anxiety over the latest scientific discoveries?

The filmmakers' DNA tests suggest that the "Yeshua" remains and the "Mariamene e Mara" remains (aka "Mary Magdalene," through the complex theories of a Harvard professor) were not related on their mother's side. So who knows? Heck, they could have been married, right? The DNA proves it, unless, of course, they were related on their father's side, or Mariamene e Mara was married to or maybe just the daughter or sister of someone else in the tomb. Amos Kloner, a former Jerusalem district archeologist who examined the tomb in 1980, calls the allegedly new evidence "not serious."

But the Science Says game works so well that people play it with the same dogmatic fervor they once played The Pope Says, and for a similar reason: Because if science really says something, you no longer need brook the irritation of tolerating dissent.

In a recent column on a U.N. report on climate change, Ellen Goodman noted that only 25 percent of college-educated Republicans believe global warming is caused by humans, while 75 percent of college-educated Democrats do. The sociology of truth is a fascinating phenomenon. But Ellen the Scientific sees only proof of conservative dogmatism: "The certainty of the human role is now somewhere over 90 percent. Which is about as certain as scientists ever get. ... (G)lobal warming deniers are now on a par with Holocaust deniers." That is to say people who disagree with Ellen are either very bad or stark raving mad, and either way she can dismiss them.

But of course Goodman is quite wrong about one thing: Scientists are far more than 90 percent certain about most scientific truths. It is social scientists who aim for 90 percent (or 95 percent) certainty, and the large margin for error -- a 1-in-10 chance by the authors' own estimate that the report is simply wrong about the cause of global warming -- is a telltale sign that what we have here is not a hard scientific fact, but a scientific judgment, a possibility, a probability perhaps, but hardly an undeniable fact like the Holocaust.

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review published an interview this week with Timothy Ball, a dissenting climatologist who thinks sun-spots, not carbon emissions, best explain the 500-year trend toward global warming. (You can read what he says here: http://www.elynews.com/articles/2007/02/23/news/news06.txt.) It's an important debate, but the most important thing about the debate is to notice when the 'Science Says' card is being played inappropriately as a way to shut down debate: "As soon as people start saying something's settled, it's usually that they don't want to talk about it anymore," notes Ball. "A consensus is not a scientific fact." Amen to that.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/20070227/cm_ucmg/sciencesaysburyjesus;_ylt=Atsbiaiwhmr3YHuYP_JNOwIe 6sgF

[janelle]

Christians do believe the bible is infallible and written by the Holy Spirit through humans that wrote it down.

Jesus was God and as such CANNOT lie. He said the reason He came down from heaven was to save us from our sins. Dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day. He became the sacrifice to reconcile us to the Father.

As far as those who think outside of the bible too many people do it. They have for centuries and will continue to do it. That is how all these false notions emerge and there are plenty of them.

So far all the notions have been proven wrong and true Christians stick to the bibical words passed down throughout the centuries.

[YNKYH8R]

Christians do believe the bible is infallible and written by the Holy Spirit through humans that wrote it down.

Jesus was God and as such CANNOT lie. He said the reason He came down from heaven was to save us from our sins. Dying on the cross and rising from the dead on the third day. He became the sacrifice to reconcile us to the Father.

As far as those who think outside of the bible too many people do it. They have for centuries and will continue to do it. That is how all these false notions emerge and there are plenty of them.

So far all the notions have been proven wrong and true Christians stick to the bibical words passed down throughout the centuries.And so comes the arrogance of religon. (NOT the arrogance of the poster)
First: I believe that all religons should look beyond their texts to see life for what it truely is. Rather than clinging to it in stalwart fashion completely inflexable.
Second: Has anyone come up with a conspiracy thoery as to why some people want Christianity to fail? If there is one?

[janelle]

We believe Jesus is God and telling the truth. That cannot be arrogant. If one KNOWS something is true and tells others it is true are they being arrogant?

Of course, others are free to believe what they want to believe and are not forced---at least not today---into converting so I don't see how it hurts anyone.

I would not say our parents were arrogant telling us if we cross a busy street we take a chance in being killed if we don't look both ways. The bible is also an instruction book on a safe way to live our lives. First we believe because we take it on faith like we did when we were young we believed our parents. Then when we get older we believe when we see the truth in it as we live our lives.

[janelle]

Second: Has anyone come up with a conspiracy thoery as to why some people want Christianity to fail? If there is one?
================================================== =======

You should have been with me last night to hear the priest talk on the "Culture of Death" that is in the world today. I think it would have answered many of your questions.

[YNKYH8R]

We believe Jesus is God and telling the truth. That cannot be arrogant. If one KNOWS something is true and tells others it is true are they being arrogant?

Of course, others are free to believe what they want to believe and are not forced---at least not today---into converting so I don't see how it hurts anyone.

I would not say our parents were arrogant telling us if we cross a busy street we take a chance in being killed if we don't look both ways. The bible is also an instruction book on a safe way to live our lives. First we believe because we take it on faith like we did when we were young we believed our parents. Then when we get older we believe when we see the truth in it as we live our lives.Of course it's arrogant...you're saying that Christianity is the only way and that there is no other way. How do KNOW it's true? We're only talking about something you believe in.

[tngirl]

Why arrogant to be sure in your beliefs? It is no different than you went outside tonight and saw a UFO. We would all call you crazy for believing in something that doesn't exist even though you know that it does. So, would that be considered arrogance? You could use the argument that you saw it with your own two eyes, but I would tell you that I have seen miracles with my own two eyes. In my opinion, neither of us is arrogant because we believe in what we believe.

What I do not understand is why you want to continually bash on Christians in this forum for their beliefs. You either believe or you don't, why take your opinion out on others? It harms you in no way. Considering this is a religious forum you cannot say that anyone here is "pushing" their beliefs on you. You make the decision to come here and join the discussions. Couldn't your attitude be taken as arrogant?

[YNKYH8R]

Why arrogant to be sure in your beliefs? It is no different than you went outside tonight and saw a UFO. We would all call you crazy for believing in something that doesn't exist even though you know that it does. So, would that be considered arrogance? You could use the argument that you saw it with your own two eyes, but I would tell you that I have seen miracles with my own two eyes. In my opinion, neither of us is arrogant because we believe in what we believe.

What I do not understand is why you want to continually bash on Christians in this forum for their beliefs. You either believe or you don't, why take your opinion out on others? It harms you in no way. Considering this is a religious forum you cannot say that anyone here is "pushing" their beliefs on you. You make the decision to come here and join the discussions. Couldn't your attitude be taken as arrogant?I'm not pressing a view. Nor am I bashing Christians. I'm just being a good class participant.:)

[tngirl]

I'm not pressing a view. Nor am I bashing Christians. I'm just being a good class participant.:)

When you insult people it is (in my opinion) on the same level as bashing. When you bring something to the discussion you are participating, whether facts or opinion on the subject. Your opinion was focused on Christianity and what you consider arrogance on Christians part. Earlier in the thread you picked and chose the words you wanted to "quote" in order to take a jab at Christian beliefs.

[Jolie Rouge]

Of course it's arrogant...you're saying that Christianity is the only way and that there is no other way. How do KNOW it's true? We're only talking about something you believe in.

I seem to recall you being very passionate in your views of the theory of Evolution and dismissive ( at best ) of those who proposed Intellegent Design". Both are theories - how do you *KNOW* one or the other is "true" ?

[YNKYH8R]

I seem to recall you being very passionate in your views of the theory of Evolution and dismissive ( at best ) of those who proposed Intellegent Design". Both are theories - how do you *KNOW* one or the other is "true" ?I don't and I've never decried evolution as the end all be all answer for why we are here.
Welcome Jolie pull up a chair.:)

[YNKYH8R]

When you insult people it is (in my opinion) on the same level as bashing. When you bring something to the discussion you are participating, whether facts or opinion on the subject. Your opinion was focused on Christianity and what you consider arrogance on Christians part. Earlier in the thread you picked and chose the words you wanted to "quote" in order to take a jab at Christian beliefs.I didn't bash a person. I simplely claimed that I believe it to be an arrogant point of view to believe that Christianity is the one and only true answer to *anything*. There are other religions out there. The whole "my way or the highway" attitude is...not good.

[tngirl]

I didn't bash a person. I simplely claimed that I believe it to be an arrogant point of view to believe that Christianity is the one and only true answer to *anything*. There are other religions out there. The whole "my way or the highway" attitude is...not good.

And who are you to tell us that we are wrong? Do you know it for a fact? And how can you have faith in your religion if you do not believe it to be true? And if you believe it to be true then how can you believe all other religions are true also? It has nothing to do with arrogance, it has to do with faith in your beliefs.

[janelle]

Life is an 80 year test. For some longer some shorter. Each of us has to decide in that time frame whether we will seek to serve our Creator or seek to serve ourselves. In one sense, that's it. We don't get another chance. At least no one has ever shown that there is another chance.

All of creation screams of the existance of God. What aspect of life or science can one find that denies this? So you too have to make that choice. Yes, we cannot prove it. Creation proves it. Each of us has to seek that proof by opening our eyes. By being open minded and challenge ourselves as to whether we are truly being open minded and willing to discover new ways of seeing life. In the end, Christians have found that following Jesus is the only solution that makes any sense. We cannot prove it. It is a matter of faith. Each person has to decide whether Jesus will be their Lord and Savior. No one else can do it.

So in the final analysis, each of us decides how we will complete the test. The creator will judge us based upon how honestly we sought to serve him.

[hblueeyes]

Well said. My belief has always been the belief in both Grand design and evolution. They work together. Evolution is true and science can prove it but evolution was part of the Grand Design by the Creator, God. This documentary did not rattle by beliefs or faith.

Me:p

[YNKYH8R]

Life is an 80 year test. For some longer some shorter. Each of us has to decide in that time frame whether we will seek to serve our Creator or seek to serve ourselves. In one sense, that's it. We don't get another chance. At least no one has ever shown that there is another chance.

All of creation screams of the existance of God. What aspect of life or science can one find that denies this? So you too have to make that choice. Yes, we cannot prove it. Creation proves it. Each of us has to seek that proof by opening our eyes. By being open minded and challenge ourselves as to whether we are truly being open minded and willing to discover new ways of seeing life. In the end, Christians have found that following Jesus is the only solution that makes any sense. We cannot prove it. It is a matter of faith. Each person has to decide whether Jesus will be their Lord and Savior. No one else can do it.

So in the final analysis, each of us decides how we will complete the test. The creator will judge us based upon how honestly we sought to serve him.Wow Janelle you could knock me over with a feather. (You keep it up I'm going to have to take back all those things I've said about you.)
All that you have written sounds great..except that it requires quite a number of conditions...

A. A belief that the Bible is a perfect creation and infallable.
B. That there is a creator.
C. That Jesus is the only way (beyond text that express this)

You write that all of existance screams creation by God. Where? What examples.
You speak of deciding whether to spend your time here serving a creator or yourself. How do we know there is a creator and not multiple chances? Just because one book says so? What about other forms of belief are they wrong and Christianity right? Who judges that?
And be serious belief requires more than verbal recognition. What about feeling. Trying to pass all of this off on someone who feels nothing...? You'd have an easier time defining an emotion without using other feelings as a frame of reference.

[YNKYH8R]

And who are you to tell us that we are wrong? Do you know it for a fact? And how can you have faith in your religion if you do not believe it to be true? And if you believe it to be true then how can you believe all other religions are true also? It has nothing to do with arrogance, it has to do with faith in your beliefs.I've never said you are wrong. What if life is supposed to be an amalgam of everything we see around us? What if everyone one is worshiping the same God?

[janelle]

Well said. My belief has always been the belief in both Grand design and evolution. They work together. Evolution is true and science can prove it but evolution was part of the Grand Design by the Creator, God. This documentary did not rattle by beliefs or faith.

Me:p

Just to be honest, the posts prior to the one that states "Life is an 80 year test" were posted by Janelle. I am her husband and I posted the comment on "Life being an 80 year test". I will try to distinquish this if and when I post in the future but I only occasionally post in chat rooms.

It does no good to debate whether evolution is a fact. It is simply a theory that when reduced to scientific investigation cannot be proven in anyone's lifetime, life being only 80 or so years and according to evolution theory the evolution process takes centuries or longer. If it is true, I agree with you that is part of God's design. We, as people, search continually with theories and discovering facts that God has always known. That is the essence of science, to discover some aspects of creation that God has always known.

Posted by Janelle's husband.

[janelle]

Wow Janelle you could knock me over with a feather. (You keep it up I'm going to have to take back all those things I've said about you.)
All that you have written sounds great..except that it requires quite a number of conditions...

A. A belief that the Bible is a perfect creation and infallable.
B. That there is a creator.
C. That Jesus is the only way (beyond text that express this)

You write that all of existance screams creation by God. Where? What examples.
You speak of deciding whether to spend your time here serving a creator or yourself. How do we know there is a creator and not multiple chances? Just because one book says so? What about other forms of belief are they wrong and Christianity right? Who judges that?
And be serious belief requires more than verbal recognition. What about feeling. Trying to pass all of this off on someone who feels nothing...? You'd have an easier time defining an emotion without using other feelings as a frame of reference.

As stated in my most recent post, I am Janelle's husband.

Previous I suggested you try to find an example that does not scream of God's creation. Instead you tried to turn this around. So here is some example. Look at the complexity of the human organism. It is mathematically improbable (almost impossible) that such a complex organism could come to being just by chance. Then we see this theme repeated in plant life and animal life. Then we see this theme repeated in the perfect positioning of the earth in its orbit about the sun. Then we see this theme repeated in the 109 elements of chemistry, in physics, in astronomy. There is no end to the theme of complex aspects of our existance and the world about us that we observe as in existance but when reduced to mathematical probablity none of them could exist by chance alone much less all of them together. All of creation screams of the existance of a creator.

In looking at the civilizations in history, we have not found one that did not seek a diety. Why? Most simple because mankind throughout history recongizes that all of creation screams of the existance of a creator. It is the only logical explanation but it is still faith, it cannot be proven.

So what if we are wrong in our beleifs? What is the result? As Christians we try to make the world better. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't but we still put our faith in God. So what is the result if we are wrong? Who is harmed?

But what if we are right and agnostism is wrong? Where does that put the agnostic?

If God does exist and God does have a purpose for His creation, then it only stands to reason that He provide some avenue for His creation to reconize Him. That has been demonstrated throughout history in a varity of cultures. We know that for more than 4,000 years we have had the scriptures, first pinned by Moses and then finalized sometime around 100 A.D.

Be careful of feelings. Feelings are often wrong and misleading. As a teenager I often felt like my parents were idiots. As an adult, I learned that my feelings were wrong. I can feel like I can organize my neighbors into a nieghborhood watch. I might later learn that they are really apathetic towards the idea. If we base our believes on feelings we could be way off base. I think this is how some cults, like the Jonestown tragedy of a number of years ago, get people caught up in such misguided feelings.

Ultimate judgement is not the perogative of humans. Therefore it does no good to debate who judges whom. I would not be so arrogant as to say that those of other faiths are doomed for all eternity. That is the providence of God. The same is true of other faiths. However, I do believe that once having been immersed in Christianty it would be a grave sin for me to deny my faith or to not tell others of the beauty I have found in Jesus. No one will ever be able to prove it to you. What I have found that since I truly experienced the love that God has for me through the passion, death, and ressurection of His son, Jesus the Christ, I cannot image life in any other terms. In my daily walk with Jesus I know that he always protects me and guildes me in ways that I can never comprehend or imagine. Sometimes in looking back I see where he has provided the perfect solution, other things will have to wait until I am with Him for eternity before they will make sense to me. But then God is all knowing, I am only tring to understand a small part of what he has always known. That is faith.

Life is the test. I am only trying to pass the final exam. I can only do this with the salvation that Jesus provides. For as a human, I can never do enough to earn my way to salvation. That is a free gift of God through Jesus the Christ. My part is to gain the redemption He offers by being His true and faithful servant. I pray that you too will some day find that same love and salvation offered by Jesus. You clearly are searching for the answers or you would not be engaging in this discussion. Faith in Chirst will provide those answers but if you are looking for the proof only God can give that proof. However, it may be that neither one of us will ever see that in this lifetime.

St. Thomas Aquinas was one of the deapest and greatest thinkers of the Church. Near the end of his life he came to recongize that as great as his writings were, in comparision to God his writings were worthless. We can learn a lot about how God revealed himself to St. Thomas Aquinas in his writings. But God is so much greater than all that. I am no St. Thomas Aquinas. My knowledge is not that great. God's knowledge is greater, than all I can hope for, all that St. Thomas Aquinas could hope for, all than you could hope for. I pray that you will some day see how much God loves you.

[janelle]

Double post.

[YNKYH8R]

As stated in my most recent post, I am Janelle's husband.I had no idea when I posted that it was not Janelle I was speaking to....:o As for everything else you wrote, it was very nice.

[Njean31]

Previous I suggested you try to find an example that does not scream of God's creation. Instead you tried to turn this around. So here is some example. Look at the complexity of the human organism. It is mathematically improbable (almost impossible) that such a complex organism could come to being just by chance. Then we see this theme repeated in plant life and animal life. Then we see this theme repeated in the perfect positioning of the earth in its orbit about the sun. Then we see this theme repeated in the 109 elements of chemistry, in physics, in astronomy. There is no end to the theme of complex aspects of our existance and the world about us that we observe as in existance but when reduced to mathematical probablity none of them could exist by chance alone much less all of them together. All of creation screams of the existance of a creator.



http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y59/njean36/dimes-1.jpg
The laws of physics are designed with such precision that it is almost inconceivable that they could be the result of chance. For example, take the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 1037 (1037 = 10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros) otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe. The likelihood of this occurring by chance is described by Dr. Hugh Ross below:

"One part in 1037 is such an incredibly sensitive balance that it is hard to visualize. The following analogy might help: Cover the entire North American continent in dimes all the way up to the moon, a height of about 239,000 miles (In comparison, the money to pay for the U.S. federal government debt would cover one square mile less than two feet deep with dimes.). Next, pile dimes from here to the moon on a billion other continents the same size as North America. Paint one dime red and mix it into the billion of piles of dimes. Blindfold a friend and ask him to pick out one dime. The odds that he will pick the red dime are one in 1037."1

Reference:

1.

Hugh Ross. 1995. The Creator and the Cosmos, p. 115.

[Jolie Rouge]

As stated in my most recent post, I am Janelle's husband.


Dude, you totally need your own handle so you can come by more often !

[janelle]

Well he may when he nears retirement but that won't be for a long while yet. He is turning 53 so has a lot more years to work. Keeps him too busy.

Najean, thanks for finding that example.

Adam, why don't you listen to TV shows on religion. We are now ( hubby and I) watching EWTN about C.K. Chesterton. Very insightful. Or read Chesterton books. Or go to www.chesterton.org

[Jolie Rouge]

Scene 1: Discredit religion; Scene 2: See Scene 1
By Michael Medved
Mon Mar 12, 7:06 AM ET

Just as freshly sprouted daffodils indicate the imminent arrival of spring, so the pop culture's yearly discovery (and exploitation) of Jesus Christ heralds the upcoming celebration of the Easter holiday.

The entertainment industry in particular has developed a curious strategy of attempting to connect with America's massive, ardent Christian audience with pulpy projects that openly undercut key tenets of Christianity. These efforts range from blockbuster hits such as last year's The Da Vinci Code to scandalous and largely forgotten feature films such as The Passover Plot (1976) - which showed Jesus planning to fake his own death on the cross. The most recent effort at simultaneously insulting and intriguing the faith-based audience involved the shamelessly oversold documentary The Lost Tomb of Jesus, which received its world premiere on the Discovery Channel last week.

The participation of Titanic director James Cameron as executive producer helped to ensure worldwide frenzy concerning the purported "scientific" significance of discoveries challenging New Testament teaching about the Resurrection.

Actually, all of the information in the painfully padded Lost Tomb broadcast derives from relics removed in 1980 from a construction site in a Jerusalem suburb. Workers inadvertently stumbled across an ancient burial chamber, and archaeologists hurriedly removed 10 ossuaries, or "bone boxes," in which first century Jews interred the remains of their relatives after allowing the bodies to decompose.

Cameron's collaborator, an Israeli-born Canadian named Simcha Jacobovici, directed the show and dominates the proceedings on screen, presenting himself as an intrepid combination of Indiana Jones and Tom Hanks in The Da Vinci Code.

For a relentlessly repetitive two hours, Jacobovici focuses on the indistinct inscriptions on his bone boxes, one of which may (or according to some experts, may not) read: "Jesus, Son of Joseph." Other names on the six labeled ossuaries include Maria (the Latinized form of Mary), Mariamne (whom Jacobovici uses somewhat tortured logic to associate with Mary Magdalene) and Judah, son of Jesus. Though such names were common in ancient Judea, the movie insists that their presence in the same burial cave creates the overwhelming likelihood that this site, indeed, constitutes the Lost Tomb of Jesus.

Unfortunately, nearly all prominent Israeli archaeologists reject such reasoning. Amos Kloner, who conducted the original excavation, has denounced the project as sloppy, exploitative and irresponsible. Joe Zias, who was the curator at Jerusalem's Rockefeller Museum for 25 years and personally numbered the now controversial bone boxes, has said this of Jacobovici: "He's pimping off the Bible. … Projects like these make a mockery of the archeological profession."


Holes in the story

Such critical voices receive scant attention in the documentary, where their absence contributes greatly to the listless energy level of the proceedings. The show also displays no awareness of the religious implications of its controversial conclusions. If his followers really interred Christ under the label "Jesus, son of Joseph," wouldn't that indicate that they didn't consider him the son of God? And if they allowed his remains to decompose for a year before they sealed his bones in a limestone box, doesn't that contradict the New Testament account of a miraculously empty tomb and a Resurrection after three days?

According to a Newsweek poll for its "From Jesus to Christ" issue of March 2005 (yes, it was Easter season again!), 78% of Americans say they believe "Jesus rose from the dead." The Lost Tomb of Jesus largely ignores this prevailing faith, while the documentary's cheesy Monty Python-style re-enactments of Christ and disciples remain too lame to convince or offend anyone. Suggesting that he views the conclusion jump as an Olympic event, Jacobovici even cites flimsy or non-existent evidence to echo the Da Vinci-coded conclusion that Jesus bore a child with Mary Magdalene.

Such provocations helped draw a respectable audience for The Lost Tomb of Jesus, allowing it to tie for sixth place among the most-viewed cable programs of the week (but still significantly below such worthy offerings as World Wrestling Entertainment Raw). http://Newsweek.com calculated that its report on the show represented the week's most-viewed article, but that reactions "ranged from outrage to outright indifference." Jacobovici still hopes to gain additional traction for his theories and allegedly history-changing discoveries with a new book, The Jesus Family Tomb (co-authored with Charles Pellegrino, one of the "experts" who appeared in his film), released to coincide with the broadcast of the documentary.

Meanwhile, some offended Christian callers to my radio show expressed the conviction that this project represented one more component in the aggressive secularist counterattack on traditional religious beliefs, along with best-selling books such as The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation, and tireless efforts to remove crosses and Ten Commandments monuments from public places.

At the moment, major media outlets certainly seem to grant more publicity to academic efforts to challenge religious orthodoxy than they do to countervailing evidence to confirm it.


Biblical support

For instance, Simcha Jacobovici himself created a 2006 documentary, The Exodus Decoded, on the History Channel that argued for the factual basis of the Moses story, but it drew vastly less attention than Lost Tomb. Dore Gold's excellent new book, The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, the West, and the Future of the Holy City, is also full of dramatic proof that blows away prevailing scholarly skepticism about the historicity of King David's reign. But these richly documented discoveries never received the intensive coverage offered to feebly supported speculations that "disprove" the Bible.

Another fascinating book, The Exodus Case: New Discoveries Confirm the Historical Exodus by Swedish scientist Lennart Moller, provides gripping evidence about deliverance from Egypt and the real location of Mount Sinai. It also has inspired an ambitious feature film now in production. Considering general media instincts to slam rather than support biblical narratives, it will probably struggle to impact pop culture.

If The Lost Tomb of Jesus provides little basis for a re-examination of Jesus, it does offer a sad perspective on Cameron's once-flourishing career. With Titanic, he emerged as one of the most successful filmmakers in entertainment history, so it's surprising to see his current association with a sketchy project seeking attention through frontal assault on cherished beliefs.

Sadly, J.C. of Hollywood may no longer say, "I'm King of the World," but he has done nothing to alter the fact that J.C. of Nazareth still inspires billions as King of Kings.


Michael Medved, a member of USA TODAY's board of contributors, hosts a daily, nationally syndicated radio talk show. He also leads regular listener tours to Israel featuring key archaeological sites.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20070312/cm_usatoday/scene1discreditreligionscene2seescene1;_ylt=AhBHqW AjN8xaklKUCHpnod2s0NUE

[YNKYH8R]

Holes in the story

Such critical voices receive scant attention in the documentary, where their absence contributes greatly to the listless energy level of the proceedings. The show also displays no awareness of the religious implications of its controversial conclusions. If his followers really interred Christ under the label "Jesus, son of Joseph," wouldn't that indicate that they didn't consider him the son of God? And if they allowed his remains to decompose for a year before they sealed his bones in a limestone box, doesn't that contradict the New Testament account of a miraculously empty tomb and a Resurrection after three days?
Maybe not. During his trial Jesus never declaired himself God. That is why Pilate found no wrong it him. It's possible that he would have been buried under this title to prevetn people from ransacking or desecrating this tomb. Escpecially if certain people thought that he was in fact declaring himself God or son of God on his own tomb.
Is this possible...yes. Could this notion be wrong...of course. Is this something that will be entertained? No. Because anyone who doesn't fall in line with the faith is either "ignorant" or has "no faith."

[YNKYH8R]

Biblical support

For instance, Simcha Jacobovici himself created a 2006 documentary, The Exodus Decoded, on the History Channel that argued for the factual basis of the Moses story, but it drew vastly less attention than Lost Tomb. Dore Gold's excellent new book, The Fight for Jerusalem: Radical Islam, the West, and the Future of the Holy City, is also full of dramatic proof that blows away prevailing scholarly skepticism about the historicity of King David's reign. But these richly documented discoveries never received the intensive coverage offered to feebly supported speculations that "disprove" the Bible.
Of course. Obviously you're not going to draw a large crowd of viewers for a program that a majority already believe to be true. Otherwise why didn't you(general) watch it?

[YNKYH8R]

So what if we are wrong in our beleifs? What is the result? As Christians we try to make the world better. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we don't but we still put our faith in God. So what is the result if we are wrong? Who is harmed?If you truely feel this way then why are you debating the point? If the tomb that was found is in actuality Jesus's then so what? Especailly if it doesn't matter so much.
Ovbiously it must not matter too much because you're already mentally prepared to continue to worship him even if he's not God. Which is fine. Who says he HAS to be God. Why is that such a prerequisite to to faith and worship?

Be careful of feelings. Feelings are often wrong and misleading. As a teenager I often felt like my parents were idiots. As an adult, I learned that my feelings were wrong. I can feel like I can organize my neighbors into a nieghborhood watch. I might later learn that they are really apathetic towards the idea. If we base our believes on feelings we could be way off base. I think this is how some cults, like the Jonestown tragedy of a number of years ago, get people caught up in such misguided feelings.When I speak of feelings I am saying that the closeness to a higher power is not felt by me. People (Christians especially) speak of a "close personal relationship with" or "getting to know" or some kind "great love" I don't feel these things. You're confusing "emotion" with feeling. I'm speaking of emotion.


In looking at the civilizations in history, we have not found one that did not seek a diety. Why? Most simple because mankind throughout history recongizes that all of creation screams of the existance of a creator. It is the only logical explanation but it is still faith, it cannot be proven.Or because the existance of a higher power is all that makes sense at that particular point in time. If a simple person, with no education in science like biology, agriculture, or meteorology views the world around him it is possible that the only conclusion to explaining the world around him is with the belief in a higher power. If left with no tool either because they're not invented yet or the particular science dosen't exist yet then then the belief of a higher power would be the most logical course. In real life the scientific minds were the ones percecuted to for trying to prove such things as gravity, the age of the planet, the origin of the species, and wether the sun or the earth is the center of the universe.

It is mathematically improbable (almost impossible) that such a complex organism could come to being just by chance. Then we see this theme repeated in plant life and animal life. Then we see this theme repeated in the perfect positioning of the earth in its orbit about the sun. Then we see this theme repeated in the 109 elements of chemistry, in physics, in astronomy. There is no end to the theme of complex aspects of our existance and the world about us that we observe as in existance but when reduced to mathematical probablity none of them could exist by chance alone much less all of them together. All of creation screams of the existance of a creator.You only see creators existance because that is your belief system. No matter how "mathematically improbable" it is still possible. Slim by your estimates but still possible. The fact that we exist and life carrys on like it does is proof. It never occured to you that the most imrobable course would be the most likely one to naturally occur?

[Jolie Rouge]

Maybe not. During his trial Jesus never declaired himself God. That is why Pilate found no wrong it him. It's possible that he would have been buried under this title to prevetn people from ransacking or desecrating this tomb. Escpecially if certain people thought that he was in fact declaring himself God or son of God on his own tomb.

Kinda hard to put an incription on your own tomb ....




Is this possible...yes. Could this notion be wrong...of course. Is this something that will be entertained? No. Because anyone who doesn't fall in line with the faith is either "ignorant" or has "no faith."

I say it again - it is not only a question of faith but of credibility - if they declared they had found the Tomb of King Authur using the same "evidence" they not be taken seriously. If they claimed to have found the Tomb of Mohamed they would be facing a fatawa and jihad.

[janelle]

Maybe not. During his trial Jesus never declaired himself God. That is why Pilate found no wrong it him. It's possible that he would have been buried under this title to prevetn people from ransacking or desecrating this tomb. Escpecially if certain people thought that he was in fact declaring himself God or son of God on his own tomb.
Is this possible...yes. Could this notion be wrong...of course. Is this something that will be entertained? No. Because anyone who doesn't fall in line with the faith is either "ignorant" or has "no faith."

Me again---Janelle

Jesus would not grace Pilate's questions with an answer since He knew it would fall on deaf ears. His answer to Pilate is "you have said it". An open end answer. He never said he wasn't.

Some do have no faith but today some are trying to prove the faith wrong. After 2,000 years of Christianity they want to prove it wrong but some have always been trying for those 2,000 years also. The church has had to deal with dissenters now and then, it goes in spurts. Seems like now it is coming faster than other times, just like it did in past centuries. It comes mostly in times when people in general want to do their own thing and not be hindered with laws and commandants. We are going through a period like that now.

It's NOT a matter of falling in line, it's a matter of knowledge so ignorance is a true thing to say when so many falsehoods about the faith come out.

[Jolie Rouge]

Scholar: 'Jesus Tomb' makers mistaken
By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer
30 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - A scholar looking into the factual basis of a popular but widely criticized documentary that claims to have located the tomb of Jesus said Tuesday that a crucial piece of evidence filmmakers used to support their claim is a mistake.

Stephen Pfann, a textual scholar and paleographer at the University of the Holy Land in Jerusalem, said he has released a paper claiming the makers of "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" were mistaken when they identified an ancient ossuary from the cave as belonging to the New Testament's Mary Magdalene.

The film's director, Simcha Jacobovici, responded that other researchers agreed with the documentary's conclusions.

Produced by Oscar-winning director James Cameron, the documentary has drawn intense media coverage for its claims challenging accepted Christian dogma.

Despite widespread ridicule from scholars, "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" drew more than 4 million viewers when it aired on the Discovery Channel on March 4. A companion book, "The Jesus Family Tomb," has rocketed to sixth place on The New York Times nonfiction best-seller list.

The film and book suggest that a first-century ossuary found in a south Jerusalem cave in 1980 contained the remains of Jesus, contradicting the Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven. Ossuaries are stone boxes used at the time to store the bones of the dead.

The filmmakers also suggest that Mary Magdalene was buried in the tomb, that she and Jesus were married, and that an ossuary labeled "Judah son of Jesus" belonged to their son.

The scholars who analyzed the Greek inscription on one of the ossuaries after its discovery read it as "Mariamene e Mara," meaning "Mary the teacher" or "Mary the master."

Before the movie was screened, Jacobovici said that particular inscription provided crucial support for his claim. The name Mariamene is rare, and in some early Christian texts it is believed to refer to Mary Magdalene.

But having analyzed the inscription, Pfann published a detailed article on his university's Web site asserting that it doesn't read "Mariamene" at all.

The inscription, Pfann said, is made up of two names inscribed by two different hands: the first, "Mariame," was inscribed in a formal Greek script, and later, when the bones of another woman were added to the box, another scribe using a different cursive script added the words "kai Mara," meaning "and Mara." Mara is a different form of the name Martha.

According to Pfann's reading, the ossuary did not house the bones of "Mary the teacher," but rather of two women, "Mary and Martha."

"In view of the above, there is no longer any reason to be tempted to link this ossuary ... to Mary Magdalene or any other person in biblical, non-biblical or church tradition," Pfann wrote.

In the interest of telling a good story, Pfann said, the documentary engaged in some "fudging" of the facts.

"James Cameron is a great guru of science fiction, and he's taking it to a new level with Simcha Jacobovici. You take a little bit of science, spin a good yarn out of it and you get another 'Terminator' or 'Life of Brian,'" said Pfann, who briefly appeared as an ossuary expert in the documentary.

In Israel on Tuesday for a screening of the film, the Toronto-based Jacobovici welcomed Pfann's criticism, saying "every inscription should be re-examined."

But Jacobovici said scholars who researched the ossuary in the past agreed with the film's reading. "Anyone who looks at it can see that the script was written by the same hand," he added.

Jacobovici has faced criticism much tougher than Pfann's academic critique. The film has been termed "archaeo-porn," and Jacobovici has been accused of "pimping the Bible."

Jacobovici attributes most of the criticism to scholars' discomfort with journalists "casting light into their ossuary monopoly."

"What we're doing is democratizing this knowledge, and this is driving some people crazy," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070314/ap_on_sc/jesus_tomb;_ylt=AsWKFBSFaHVotGGJlalxN5Ss0NUE

___

On the Net: http://www.uhl.ac/MariameAndMartha

http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com

[YNKYH8R]

Kinda hard to put an incription on your own tomb .....No one said he put his own inscription on his own tomb.






I say it again - it is not only a question of faith but of credibility - if they declared they had found the Tomb of King Authur using the same "evidence" they not be taken seriously. If they claimed to have found the Tomb of Mohamed they would be facing a fatawa and jihad.I don;t know why you keep using this analogy...since King Arthur was a fictious person.

[janelle]

http://www.y-zine.com/yJesus.htm?gclid=COGiqemD9ooCFR6AWAodPR61pw

Many good articles here.

About Us
Y-Origins Magazine Development

Dr. Bright was aware that scientific discovery had much to say about our origins, and he believed that science and faith in God are totally compatible. Prior to his death, Dr. Bright wholeheartedly endorsed the Y-Origins objective of compiling the most relevant scientific discoveries about human origins within one single-edition magazine.

Y-Origins magazine presents scientific opinion about human origins from a wide perspective. Therefore, the magazine reveals many various viewpoints regarding our origins, all the way from the perspective that "life is merely a cosmic accident," to life is "almost a miracle."

The Y-Origins magazine is a 100 page magazine with an extensive bibliography of over 100 references from leading scientists. The scientific information in both the magazine and the website are the result of extensive research, including interviews with astronomers, biologists, authors, and science philosophers.

Y-Origins Purpose:

Either life is a cosmic accident, or it was designed. Creationists state that it was designed. What do leading scientists say in the face of new evidence about our origins? What does the evidence really point to?

In the Y-Origins magazine, the authors have reported what scientists on both sides of the origins debate have observed. Much of that information has been summarized in this website. The objective is to present scientific evidence about our origins in laymen's terms. Thus, Y-Origins lays all the science out on the table so informed readers can draw their own conclusions about our origins.

Following is a partial list of the scientists whose views on human origins are disclosed in Y-Origins magazine:

Stephen Hawking, theoretical physicist
Albert Einstein, theoretical physicist
Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer
Edwin Hubble, astronomer
Brian Greene, theoretical physicist
Paul Davies, physicist
George Smoot, astrophysicist
Donald Page, mathematician
Peter Ward, paleontologist
Donald Brownlee, astronomer
Eugene Wigner, physicist
Sir Martin Rees, cosmologist
Bernard Carr, cosmologist
Dennis Sciama, cosmologist
Werner Heisenberg, theoretical physicist
Robert Jastrow, astronomer
Roger Penrose, mathematician
George Greenstein, theoretical astrophysicist
Freeman Dyson, physicist
Hugh Ross, astronomer
Ed Harrison, cosmologist
Carl Sagan, astronomer
Guillermo Gonzalez, astronomer
Fazale Rana, biochemist
Michio Kaku, theoretical physicist
Alan Sandage, cosmologist
Arno Penzias, physicist
Michael Denton, microbiologist
William Dembski, mathematician
Kenneth Miller, microbioligist
Charles Darwin, biologist
Francis Crick, biophysicist
Gerald Schroeder, physicist
Michael Behe, biochemist
Richard Dawkins, biologist
Stephen Meyer, science historian
Amir Aczel, mathematician
T. S. Kemp, zoologist
Stephen Jay Gould, paleontologist
Niles Eldredge, paleontologist
Simon Conway Morris, paleobiologist
Jonathan Wells, biologist
Steven Stanley, evolutionary biologist
Marcel Schutzenberger, mathematician
Marta Lahr, paleoanthropoligist
Robert Macnab, biochemist
Ian Tattersall, anthropologist
Ernst Mayr, biologist
Michael Boulter, paleontologist
Whitey Hagadorn, paleontologist
Mae-Wan Ho, biologist
Peter Saunders, biologist
John Maynard Smith, geneticist
Richard Lewontin, paleontologist
Jerry Coyne, evolutionary biologist
James Shapiro, biochemist
Many of these scientists have made comments about the powerful indications of design in our universe. Some have gone so far as to state that new scientific evidence has compelled them to believe in God. Others in this list have adamantly argued against a designer, believing only in a material universe that somehow mysteriously appeared out of nothing. To them, any evidence for a designer is laughed off as "unscientific".

We believe it is wrong to laugh off evidence, regardless of which way it leads. In Y-Origins magazine, we have laid the evidence out so that the decision a reader makes about our origins is based upon fact rather than prejudice. As Plato believed and taught, "Follow the evidence wherever it leads."

[janelle]

Theologian R. C. Sproul has stated, “The claim of resurrection is vital to Christianity. If Christ has been raised from the dead by God, then He has the credentials and certification that no other religious leader possesses. Buddha is dead. Mohammad is dead. Moses is dead. Confucius is dead. But, according to … Christianity, Christ is alive.”2

================================================== ========

This is why it is important for Christians to believe in the resurrection. It's not just a so what, why would that be important anyway?

Now many are trying to prove it wrong. Are they just trying to rewrite the bible or to destroy Christianity? It is not a so what.

[Jolie Rouge]

Kinda hard to put an incription on your own tomb .....

No one said he put his own inscription on his own tomb.

I was responding to this comment ...

Escpecially if certain people thought that he was in fact declaring himself God or son of God on his own tomb.

[janelle]

C.K.Chesterton said that science is either a toy or a tool. It depends for what purpose science is being used. The same person will use science as a toy or a tool for differing purposes. However, science is not an end to itself. There are scientific facts and scientific theories. However, science does not address the purpose for which the scientific factual observations exist.

Science is mankind's efforts to learn what God (the Creator) has always know. We have amassed great knowledge with science. That is very good. However, to assume that scientific facts are an end to themselves is misguided.

Njean31 posted a interesting scientific fact of "the ratio of the number of electrons to protons. This ratio must be exactly equal to one to one to better than one part in 1037 (1037 = 10 to the 37th power, or "1" followed by 37 zeros) otherwise electromagnetic forces would have superseded gravitational forces and no galaxies, stars or planets would have ever formed in the entire history of the universe." This is one improbable scientific fact but yet we observe it to be true.

My point of a few days ago was that there are recurring themes of observable scientific facts that culled together reach impossibility by just natural occurrence. The fact pointed out by Njean31 is just one observance of science. Let's assume that there is an equal probability for each theme of which I listed. However, I don't remember how many I listed. I just listed ones that came to mind but I only scratched the surface. In statistics, we know that the probability of two things occurring at the same time is equal the the probability of the separate things multiplied by each other. If we assume Njean31's theme is one observance and we assume an equal probability of water existing then the probability of both is 1 in 10 to the 74th power. Now take that times the probability of 10 other scientific facts happening by chance and that probability become 1 in 10 to 740th power. You see the more facts we know and the more we know about the probability of those facts coexisting the closer we reach impossibility without a Creator.

Now does this almost infinite impossibility result in a fact? Not really. YHKYH8R says that the conclusion that these facts are evidence of a Creator is only because of my perspective. That is very true. It is also very true that whatever conclusions that YHKYH8R reaches faced with this facts is also based upon his perspective. So who is right? We are both right being faithful to our biases. And this is the point. Christianity is a faith/belief system. YHKYH8R has his faith/belief system as well. It just is not Christianity, at least based upon what he has said in his resent posts.

This is only human nature. We all view facts from the perspective of our faith/belief system. Is the cup half empty or half full? It is my proposition, and I didn't not come up with this idea on my own but it is also the teaching of the Church, that "all creation screams of the existence of the Creator".

Remember it is only a recent event in the terms of history that schools were not sponsored and run by the Church. The Church has always encouraged greater learning and greater scientific investigation. Of course, some mistakes have been made along the way. Those have been recognized and corrected. Will they occur into the future? Most likely because as humans we are prone to mistakes.

However, I continue to affirm that science only finds evidence that the Creator exists. The evidence is so overwhelming that it is hard for me to image how a learned person could draw a different conclusion. It is faith.

YNKYH8R says he does not see a personal creator in any god. At least he has never experienced one. I might suggest that it is difficult to have a personal relationship with someone unless you try to come to know that person. God is greater than humans. But humans are created in His image. That means that we have an existence in like form to God. That existence is called the human soul. So we communicate with God with our minds, our bodies, and our souls as an entire complete human. Often this is called pray. May I suggest for YHKYH8R that he try pray? I will also continue to pray for you that you might come to know God in a very personal way.

Remember God loves each and everyone of us regardless of our perspective or what we have done. Of course, when we sin we must ask for His forgiveness, for He loves the sinner, not the sin.

YNKYH8R I pray that you will come to know God in ways you never imagined possible. He loves you very much.

Posted by Janelle's husband.

[tngirl]

I believe in The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. I believe that God is my creator. Even though at times I question my own role in the grand scheme of things, I do not doubt Him. I feel for those that do not believe this and do not know His love. I feel for those that have not opened themselves up to His love. I realize, even with the faith that I have, it is not an easy thing to completely open yourself based on faith alone. Opening yourself up to the POSSIBILITY of there being a god is not the same as opening up for God.

[janelle]

In our church building we have above the alter what Christ said.

"Blessed are those who believe but have not seen."

This is what Jesus said to Thomas when He appeared to him after his resurrection and Thomas doubted. Thomas would not believe until he had seen Jesus.

[YNKYH8R]

I was responding to this comment ...My comment (originally) was based off the fact that "Jesus son of Joseph" and not "Jesus son of God" was possibely inscribed on the tomb.

[janelle]

I don't think anything was inscribed on the tomb.

Jesus died at Passover so his body couldn't even be prepared for burial since the Jews could not work at that time. That is why the women were going to the tomb on the third day to put the spices on it and inscribe it when they found it empty. Also, Pilot assigned men to guard the tomb so His body wouldn't be moved. If anyone had tampered with the tomb and moved the body the guards would have been killed for not doing their job.

Like the article says in the web site I posted, the Romans would have been delighted to show everyone Jesus's body when His followers said He had risen.

[YNKYH8R]

YNKYH8R says he does not see a personal creator in any god. At least he has never experienced one. I might suggest that it is difficult to have a personal relationship with someone unless you try to come to know that person. God is greater than humans. But humans are created in His image. That means that we have an existence in like form to God. That existence is called the human soul. So we communicate with God with our minds, our bodies, and our souls as an entire complete human. Often this is called pray. May I suggest for YHKYH8R that he try pray? I will also continue to pray for you that you might come to know God in a very personal way.

Remember God loves each and everyone of us regardless of our perspective or what we have done. Of course, when we sin we must ask for His forgiveness, for He loves the sinner, not the sin.

YNKYH8R I pray that you will come to know God in ways you never imagined possible. He loves you very much.

Posted by Janelle's husband.Thank you for writing back. I skipped down to this portion because the beginning and middle kind of accepts that both of us could be right or wrong and we basically break even.:)
Then we get to the quoted section...and I have to chuckle. Why....cause I've done all that. My wife always finds it funny that (at one point in my life) I was a Non denominational, evangelical, born again Christian. I fit all the roles. I prayed to have my sins washed away with the Blood of Christ. I was baptised in the Holy Spirit. Attended church at least 4 times a week with two days of Bible study. I witnessed for God too. (I was the one who would travel around and knock on doors meet the fellow passer-by and ask 'Do you know where your soul is going after you die?') I carried and read a Bible and shared my faith with others in hopes for their souls to find salvation in his word and strength in fellowship.
I remember countless prayer meetings being bent on one knee praying with my brothers and sisters, for hours, to finally be able to speak in tonuges.

And yet after all my praying and read and discussing and trying to be the example that I thought Christ wanted of me.....didn't feel anything.

I sat back and looked on all I had done and believed; all I had read and had faith in and I found myself still sitting there...alone...in the silence. No matter how much I believed I still felt nothing. The peace and the love and the warmth I just didn't feel.
I felt as close to Christ as I was my own shadow....a two dimensional being, silent, and with no feeling.

[janelle]

Oh I see now. You wanted God to answer you and give it to you right away and it didn't happen. That is understandable. Many do that but God told us it would't be easy.

I prayed for twenty years for help from God to make something happen and this was a matter of living life or just existing. It did finally come to me in the shape of help from others. I never gave up because I knew there was no other place to put my faith.

Many people pray their whole lives for something, look at the saints. It will come, but only in God's time. Only He knows the trials we need to go through to strengthen our character.

What is important about speaking in tongues? I never have and I don't even think about doing it. No one I know has been able to do it. Our church does not focus on that, only on Christ teachings and what He wants us to do and how to live.

Surely you have felt the love of your wife and children, you have a good life and good things have happened to you. That IS God working in your life. Many have horrible things to deal with each day---addictions, handicaps, horrible marriages, children in prison. If these people can still feel God's love for them then I can feel it as well with all the good things I have. I bet God has answered numerous prayers from you. Just think about it.

Janelle

[YNKYH8R]

Oh I see now. You wanted God to answer you and give it to you right away and it didn't happen. That is understandable. Many do that but God told us it would't be easy.I always thought the feeling of God's presence was something a Christian would automatically feel. Not something to wait for.


I prayed for twenty years for help from God to make something happen and this was a matter of living life or just existing. It did finally come to me in the shape of help from others. I never gave up because I knew there was no other place to put my faith.


Many people pray their whole lives for something, look at the saints. It will come, but only in God's time. Only He knows the trials we need to go through to strengthen our character.


What is important about speaking in tongues? I never have and I don't even think about doing it. No one I know has been able to do it. Our church does not focus on that, only on Christ teachings and what He wants us to do and how to live.The Church I attended in El Paso TX preached heavily from Acts. So...we were encouraged to pray for this gift. I remember trying real hard. And hearing the prayers of other around me as they prayed too. Then there was one time a brother seemed to make a 'breakthrough'. He seemed really close he was yelling and praying and others were laying hands on him and praying from the top of their lungs it went on for a half hour or more. I'm not entirely sure if he succeeded.


Surely you have felt the love of your wife and children, you have a good life and good things have happened to you. That IS God working in your life. Many have horrible things to deal with each day---addictions, handicaps, horrible marriages, children in prison. If these people can still feel God's love for them then I can feel it as well with all the good things I have. I bet God has answered numerous prayers from you. Just think about it.

JanelleMaybe I needed to truely suffer to feel it. I don't know. I've never had any of the problems you've listed. Yeah I have a great marriage and kids; I work hard at my marriage and I spend time with my children. But if there is something more out there...truely more....I don't feel it's presence nor do I feel a 'love'.
It used to, after a while, really piss me off to hear people talk about their relationship with God or the companionship or his presence. People I knew would close their eyes and smile saying 'he's here...I feel him in this room right now.'
I will say this though. The people I've met in my life who claim to really feel it have come from really screwed up families or had really f'd up lives; almost like they were the ones whno needed that feel from him most. I don't know.

[janelle]

Double post

[janelle]

YNKYH8R, I am so sorry for the experience you had. To me it is very unfortunate that some Christian groups, while very well meaning, put such pressure on people. But let's be forgiving of them because they do help some to come to know Jesus.

I feel like you have been through the parable of the sower in Matthew 13:1-9. The seed of the Word of God fell on you but for some reason it didn't take firm root on your rich soil. However, let's keep in mind it is only a parable and it does not say that all is lost. Remember, Jesus also told the Scribes and Pharisees that He will cut out those branches that do not produce fruit and graph in branches that will. So just because the experience you had did not lead you to a deeper faith, you too can come to have a deeper faith.

From your post it appears that you were given the impression that you have to have an emotional feeling in order to have real salvation and a personal relationship with Jesus. While I would never deny the feeling some have of Jesus' presence, I can honestly tell you that I don't get those emotional feelings either. I remember going to some prayer services where people would try to push us into this feeling. It didn't work for me either. I came away thinking that they we trying to scam me. They would say very general things that you would find in every crowd and say that God revealed those things to them. I didn't think so. I won't say they were dishonest because I don't know their heart. But it didn't work for me. In fact, I moved away from those groups because that type of pressure didn't help me grow in my spiritual journey.

I came to have much greater and deeper faith as I came to better understand 1 Cor 12. Here Paul tells us about many expressions of the spiritual gifts. To some is given wisdom, some knowledge, some faith, some gifts of healing, etc. However, it is very clear in this passage that we are NOT TO HAVE ALL OF THESE GIFTS. And this is where I see the problem with the pressure such groups impose upon people. Just because some experience those gifts doesn't mean that I will. As I went through my spiritual journey I learned that I have other gifts that God has given me. As I walk with Jesus, I know that He truly loves me but I don't have that emotional feeling. I know it in the things that He does for me. I know it in how He helps me as I wrestle with the problems of the day. Sometimes, often times, I don't see the influence Jesus has had in my life until later, sometimes much later. I have truly lived the poem of the Footprints In The Sand. God carried me through hard times in my life. But I didn't have the emotional high some experience. I am just as confident of God's love and protection as those who do have those emotional highs. My relationship with Jesus is a personal relationship, it just doesn't manifest itself for me like it does for those who have those emotional highs.

A few years ago I was talking with a young man. He said he was wanting to get baptized again. I asked him why. He said because he didn't feel like the first baptism did anything for him. My response was that the Spiritual event is not governed by his emotional response. It is governed by faith and the actions of God. As such, to me even baptizing an infant makes sense because it is God washing away that child's original sin along with the faith of the child's parents and sponsors. That's a Spiritual event governed by God.

I would encourage your to try a different group. It sounds like you were in a more Pentecostal group. Maybe you need to get into a group that is more high church, like the Lutherans or Catholics. For me, I was a cradle Catholic who as a teenager got hooked up with a fundamentalist group. I followed that group for some 20 years and had many good friends. However, I came to see that I wasn't finding the answers in that group, for me it was too shallow, and I decided to reconsider the Catholic Church. Now I am convinced that the Catholic Church has the most complete perspective on the Christian faith of any group I have seen. Please don't misunderstand this. I am not being critical of other Christian churches. The Catholic church does not condemn other Christians. I think the Papacy of John Paul II speaks loudly about this fact that other faiths also have salvation. But I do encourage you to try again. You may need to try several times. But prayer is the strongest ally you will have in this journey. I'll continue to pray for you. I know that God will bring you to that Christian group where you truly belong and work out those gifts God has for you.

May He bless you richly in this journey -- He always does.

Posted by Janelle's husband.